Is anything truly Ineffable?

[zerostao]

"In the courtyard of a Buddhist monastery. The cynic Sage, nearly naked, was seated on the ground eating fish. As the meal went on, he put down the fish's backbones beside him. However, in order not to defile his cast purity, Naropa was on the point of passing by at some little distance from the eater, when a monk started to reproach Tilopa for parading his lack of compassion for the animals, that is, killing and eating the fish, in the very premises of a Buddhist Monastery; and ordered him to leave at once.

 

Tilopa did not even condescend to answer. He muttered some words, snapped his fingers and the fish bones were again covered with flesh. The fishes then moved as if living and swam away through the air as if it was water. No vestige remained of the cruel meal on the ground."

 

Hmnnn..

Describing Tilopa as one of the last masters and repeating a story about how he could eat a fish, then if someone makes him angry, snap his fingers and have it come alive and swim away(in the air). I am skeptical about these stories. I know they're repeated and give great credence to whatever religion they're based on, but dedicated hard core practitioners can't reproduce these miracles. The ones who've spent there lives in deep study and practice simply can't don't or won't display them when asked. It might be the stories are wrong and to draw your philosophy from them will lead to a dead end.

 

How many people here think they will get so powerful that they can eat a fish, snap there fingers and turn it into super fish? Plus Tilopa seems like a dope in the first place for eating the fish in a monastery that forbids it. Perhaps he could have magicked up some veggies to share and not been so grumpy. From the story he doesn't seem so much a 'master' as magical. And self mastery is hard, magic.. I don't know. I get the feeling 'magical' things can often be done mundanely far easier.

 

Real skills can be learned. Good philosophy makes your life better. Fantasies have you chase after illusion. Sometimes thats not bad, but there are real skills to pick up in this life, chasing the Siddhis, is not probably not the way, though if they come as a side effect, fine.

 

Personally I think there are many masters in the world. But, I don't see performing magic tricks as a litmus test. Compassion and self mastery are though.

 

certainly some good food for thought there thelerner.

[Marblehead]

So anyhow, I am going to read this whole thread to refresh my memory just in case anyone wishes to comment to it.

[gatito]

I've commented.

[Marblehead]

Okay. Let's talk about this.

 

Marblehead, on 15 November 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

 

Yes, "that which is reading these words" is the "self" - the body/brain physical organism.

 

Gatito said"

No.

 

That's an idea/concept/belief.

 

 

On the contrary. My physical body's existance can be varified by anyone other than myself. My physical body truely exists. If a person asks me a question and I return a logical reply they will be able to attest to the fact that I have a brain.

 

Ergo Marblehead exists. It is he, the physical manifestation that exists - a separate organism separate from all other manifestations. But let us remember that Marblehead is not permanent. And even though he is a separate existant, he is dependant on many other aspects of the Manifest. This is Marblehead's "self" - one aspect of Tao that can be spoken of.

 

But this is not the "Self". What makes Marblehead Marblehead, in its totality, from the beginning of time, is the "Self" of Marblehead.

 

Am I confused yet?

[gatito]

Okay. Let's talk about this.

 

Marblehead, on 15 November 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

 

Yes, "that which is reading these words" is the "self" - the body/brain physical organism.

 

Gatito said"

No.

 

That's an idea/concept/belief.

 

 

On the contrary. My physical body's existance can be varified by anyone other than myself. My physical body truely exists. If a person asks me a question and I return a logical reply they will be able to attest to the fact that I have a brain.

 

Ergo Marblehead exists. It is he, the physical manifestation that exists - a separate organism separate from all other manifestations. But let us remember that Marblehead is not permanent. And even though he is a separate existant, he is dependant on many other aspects of the Manifest. This is Marblehead's "self" - one aspect of Tao that can be spoken of.

 

But this is not the "Self". What makes Marblehead Marblehead, in its totality, from the beginning of time, is the "Self" of Marblehead.

 

Am I confused yet?

 

Yes, you are very confused.

 

I'm talking about your own personal experience but it seems that you have to go to someone else even to confirm that you actually exist.

Edited November 15, 2012 by gatito

[forestofclarity]

Separate and dependent are contradictory notions. Dependency shows how you are NOT separate from other things. For example, the air we breath connects us to the world. The food we eat connects us to other living beings. Our bodies are literally made of star dust and powered by the sun. We may be different than the sun, but I would not say that we are separate.

 

Ergo Marblehead exists. It is he, the physical manifestation that exists - a separate organism separate from all other manifestations. But let us remember that Marblehead is not permanent. And even though he is a separate existant, he is dependant on many other aspects of the Manifest. This is Marblehead's "self" - one aspect of Tao that can be spoken of.

 

[Marblehead]

Yes, you are very confused.

 

I'm talking about your own personal experience but it seems that you have to go to someone else even to confirm that you actually exist.

No. You are taking what I said out of context.

 

I verify that I exist. Others confirm that I exist.

 

All my experiences are personal. Yes, they may involve others but that doesn't matter. The experiences are still "mine".

[et-thoughts]

.

Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[gatito]

No. You are taking what I said out of context.

 

I verify that I exist. Others confirm that I exist.

 

All my experiences are personal. Yes, they may involve others but that doesn't matter. The experiences are still "mine".

 

Then you know that you exist and you know that you know that you exist?

 

Do you need anything else or anyone else to confirm that?

[Marblehead]

Separate and dependent are contradictory notions. Dependency shows how you are NOT separate from other things. For example, the air we breath connects us to the world. The food we eat connects us to other living beings. Our bodies are literally made of star dust and powered by the sun. We may be different than the sun, but I would not say that we are separate.

Hi Forest,

 

Good to see you and yes, I was surprised. I always enjoy a discussion with you even though we don't always agree.

 

I agree with the part I bolded. The first and second bolded sentences support what I refer to as the "Self". The third sentence is consistent with what science presently feels it knows.

 

Yes, we are different. But I am not a part of the chair I am sitting on even though we are of the same source. This is the beauty of the Manifest - the Ten Thousand Things. I am one of those Ten; the chair is another of those Ten, but we are different and separate - I can stand up, totally destroy the chair but I will still exist, the chair will not.

 

 

No, Separate and dependent are not contradictory notions. Quite logical, I would say.

[Marblehead]

This singularity just want to say that the sustainable-desirable-congruent ways of life are ineffable and give each abundantly what each desires...

Hehehe. Well, you started with singularity then went to duality; from ineffable to effable. Good job!

[Marblehead]

Then you know that you exist and you know that you know that you exist?

 

Yes.

 

Do you need anything else or anyone else to confirm that?

 

No. However, a man cannot live on bread alone, he must have peanut butter.

[gatito]

 

Yes.

 

 

 

No. However, a man cannot live on bread alone, he must have peanut butter.

 

OK

 

So you are Conscious and the qualities of that Consciousness are Knowing and Being?

 

Are you sure about that or not?

 

In your own experience

[Everything]

A consciousness, expanding itself into more of itself, is allways coming to know itself for the first time anew.

 

A consciousness expanding into the baby that it is, finds this baby ineffable, yet comes to know it as itself over time, more and more.

 

It is ok to breath your way into expansion and sometimes exhale what you have become, so that you can inhale new breath ones again. This new breath is always greater and more expansive then the previous breath.

 

Each moment is an expansion of the previous one. All moments are as you, here and now. You are constantly expanding into more of yourself.

 

As you come to know Tao, you will forget it as quickly as you come to know it. You have to learn to deal with this new territory, beyond mind, beyond grasp, beyond knowing, just like the baby was new to you. Your arms and legs all over the place, not finding corrolation between your being and the ever changing circumstances of your body. Eventually you will come to know Tao as yourself in much the same manner as you have come to know your own body as yourself.

 

For it is already you. This reflection is just so unique to us at the moment, we require great exhalation, forgetfulness, as a launching platform for the greatest expansion of consciousness that is yet to come.

[gatito]

@ Everything

 

How can consciousness expand?

 

Can you find an edge or a boundary to your consciousness now?

[Marblehead]

An example:

 

The picture I posted today is a picture of a flower that died and withered away months ago. The flower itself no longer exists. However, it does still exist in the image of the flower (picture) and in the memory of everyone who has seen the picture. It will furthermore be reborn every time another person views the picture.

 

The very moment the flower bud opened the flower came into existence - the Manifest essence. Although the manifest essence is no longer with us the image still remains, and it appears to live in the image and the memory of those who have viewed it.

 

So it exists even though it does not exist. The 'self' of the flower is long gone - the "Self" of the flower lives on. And really, the "Self" of the flower has always existed and will always exist.

[gatito]

An example:

 

The picture I posted today is a picture of a flower that died and withered away months ago. The flower itself no longer exists. However, it does still exist in the image of the flower (picture) and in the memory of everyone who has seen the picture. It will furthermore be reborn every time another person views the picture.

 

The very moment the flower bud opened the flower came into existence - the Manifest essence. Although the manifest essence is no longer with us the image still remains, and it appears to live in the image and the memory of those who have viewed it.

 

So it exists even though it does not exist. The 'self' of the flower is long gone - the "Self" of the flower lives on. And really, the "Self" of the flower has always existed and will always exist.

 

Not interested in the example MH - it's irrelevant.

 

Let me repeat the question for the last time and then I'm out of here if you don't want to discuss this seriously and logically.

[Marblehead]

OK

 

So you are Conscious and the qualities of that Consciousness are Knowing and Being?

 

Are you sure about that or not?

 

In your own experience

Ah! I was going to say an unqualified "Yes", but I must expand.

 

Yes, I am conscious of being conscious. I doubt that I could say that my consciousness has any qualities. It just is as a result of a properly (more or less) functioning brain. The brain is key, you know. No brain, no consciousness. Very physical and materialistic.

 

So yes, being conscious allows me to identify what is "me" and what is "not me". This is regardless of the fact that "me" and "not me" are of the same source.

 

In my own experience I have experienced both love and hate. Dualistic concepts, indeed. (Not both at the same time though.)

[gatito]

Ah! I was going to say an unqualified "Yes", but I must expand.

 

Yes, I am conscious of being conscious. I doubt that I could say that my consciousness has any qualities. It just is as a result of a properly (more or less) functioning brain. The brain is key, you know. No brain, no consciousness. Very physical and materialistic.

 

So yes, being conscious allows me to identify what is "me" and what is "not me". This is regardless of the fact that "me" and "not me" are of the same source.

 

In my own experience I have experienced both love and hate. Dualistic concepts, indeed. (Not both at the same time though.)

 

Goodbye to this thread.

[Marblehead]

A consciousness, expanding itself into more of itself, is allways coming to know itself for the first time anew.

...

Nice post Everything. I have no way of responding to it except to say "Yes."

[Marblehead]

Not interested in the example MH - it's irrelevant.

 

Let me repeat the question for the last time and then I'm out of here if you don't want to discuss this seriously and logically.

I have responded to your question. You don't like my answer. That does not make it invalid or irrelevant.

 

If you feel I have not answered your question then perhaps you should try rewording it or perhaps make the question easier to respond to.

[Marblehead]

Goodbye to this thread.

You didn't last long.

[gatito]

You didn't last long.

 

No, I've stopped wasting my time on trolls.

[Ish]

No, I've stopped wasting my time on trolls.

 

I sincerely don't think he's trying to troll anyone but i won't butt in .

[Marblehead]

No, I've stopped wasting my time on trolls.

I can't believe you said that. I try for an honest discussion of a Taoist concept and you ignore my responses. Remember, it was you who solicited the discussion away from the other thread. Shame on you.