Apech Posted November 15, 2012 When your mouths full of chocolate the whole world is ineffable. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 15, 2012 Even facts are kind of personal/relative to a specific spacetime and available instruments. There were tests to prove that the earth was flat, until someone came up with a better test. Of course, as you say, beliefs don't need fact, and people can believe all kinds of things that fly in the face of presently available evidence. Then again, not everyone is working with the same evidence. Because of these observations, I can't see how anyone can claim that their perception is the one true correct one. Great observations. I sure hope I have never presented myself as the holder of the only truth. I speak only my truths. Nothing more. And even I change my mind on occasion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 15, 2012 eh no. fifth time lucky. I just don't want to go through the hell of number four. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 15, 2012 When your mouths full of chocolate the whole world is ineffable. Hehehe. No response necessary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted November 15, 2012 I just don't want to go through the hell of number four. I believe that somwhere within the conglomeration of locales where you live you can get it sorted quickly, with the added bonus of being dressed as elvis and standing next to a slot machine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted November 15, 2012 Hehehe. No response necessary. interesting response. Are you a COMPULSIVE POSTING ADDICT COMPULSIVE ADDICT? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 15, 2012 I believe that somwhere within the conglomeration of locales where you live you can get it sorted quickly, with the added bonus of being dressed as elvis and standing next to a slot machine. Hehehe. I cannot imagine myself doing something like that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 15, 2012 interesting response. Are you a COMPULSIVE POSTING ADDICT COMPULSIVE ADDICT? Actually, I feel it is being polite to respond to someone who has said something to me. Yes, I post a lot. We all know that. Addicted? No, I am not going to say that I could live just fine without talking with y'all. That would not be polite. Besides, I enjoy talking with my friends here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted November 15, 2012 Hehehe. I cannot imagine myself doing something like that. be ineffable, dude. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 15, 2012 be ineffable, dude. Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 15, 2012 Time for me to go be a little productive. Talk with Y'all when I get back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 15, 2012 I never thought you were trying to impose your personal truths or anything. I was just enjoying the conversation. Hope I am not sidetracking too much. You are doing fine as far as I am concerned. Pop in whenever you have something to say. Or, just pop in and say "Hi". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted November 15, 2012 innocently sidetracking topics on internet forums is truly ineffable 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted November 15, 2012 innocently sidetracking topics on internet forums is truly ineffable Finally, back from my board meeting and unsurprisingly it looks like I have not missed anything in 5 pages of posting... Have a good one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) Finally, back from my board meeting and unsurprisingly it looks like I have not missed anything in 5 pages of posting... Have a good one. Were the boards two short planks Jeff? Edited November 16, 2012 by gatito 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted November 16, 2012 Were the boards two short planks Jeff? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 16, 2012 ... in fact someone can point to the truth and know the truth... though some will claim thats impossible... Oh, I think it is possible. A follow-up question would need be asked though: Who's truth are we referring to? Truths are oftentimes different from facts. Truths are subjective whereas facts are (supposed to be) objective. Even here, regarding facts, the tests are subjectively selected and this can easily lead to gross errors. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted November 16, 2012 Spiros the Cretan maintains that all Cretans are liars. In much the same vein... There can be no such thing as a universal truth. That's the truth. Universally. HTH Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) There can be no such thing as a universal truth. While I agree with this, it is in fact pretty tricky to understand. Truths are value judgements made by man. (Yes, some other species make value judgements but not in the way the human animal does.) As long as there are at least two humans capable of making value judgements there will always be the possibility that there will be no universal truths (statements totally agreed upon by all members of any collective). Sure, there may, on occasion, be 'collective' universal truths. That is, everyone within that collective agrees that "this" is true. But really, it may not even be a factual truth. It just needs to be agreed upon by all members. So what we could end up with is a universal truth that is based entirely on false assumptions. Edited November 16, 2012 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 16, 2012 Marblehead... Do you notice the subtle shift you introduced with your follow-up question? The shift from reference to the truth and know the truth... to "Who's truth are we referring to" changes quite a bit the topic... for some reason this shift pattern surfaces quite a bit and I wonder how to best deal with it while maintaining focused on the topic referring to the truth and knowing the truth... To me the difference between subjective and objective truths revolves around a matter of distinctions used. The more defined the distinctions the more objective the truth claims... of course sometimes the distinctions used can easily lead to gross errors. To me the accepted 'facts' that latter are recognized as miscalculations and misinterpretations simply where flawed models of reality... that some 'erroneously' considered to be true. The fact was: that some erroneously considered a certain fact different from the certain fact. Yep. I noticed that and methinks it was intentional. You know I don't talk about idealism often. That is why I rather speak about facts (as we understand the data) than of truths (which can easily contain illusions and delusions). Yes, I am a rather sujectively thinking person. You know - my "useful/useless" concept. But I do like to base my subjective opinions (truths) on fact as much as possible. But then, we can't be totally objective either. That's boring. And besides, some people like oranges better than they like apples. Both are good foods. A truth. (For most people.) However, if there were no humans on this planet nor any thinking being on any other planets anywhere in the universe then I would suggest that everything would be a universal truth. In other words, (your words kinda') what be, be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted November 16, 2012 We kinda did this one elsewhere under morality. Truths are indeed subjective but a group of people can agree an ethical code and stick to it. In a court of criminal law for example , it is never the truth that is contested but the weight of conflicting evidences. The heaviest 'burden of proof' wins the day and that's sometimes a subjective call hence appeal courts. People who go around claiming... 'This is the TRUTH' are generally not to be trusted IMO. Guy once said... 'I like God, but some of the people who work for Him are real con artists'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted November 16, 2012 Postmodernist irony is just so last century. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
