Is anything truly Ineffable?

[gatito]

I sincerely don't think he's trying to troll anyone but i won't butt in .

 

So you think that he is actually insane?

[Marblehead]

So you think that he is actually insane?

Where's the mirror?

[forestofclarity]

I would ask this: when you look at a chair, can you draw a line or see a boundary between your seeing and the chair itself? If so, where does the seeing end, and the chair begin? When you touch a chair, is there a boundary or a line between your sensation of the chair and the chair itself?

 

When I look directly into my experience, I see no such line or boundary.

 

 

Yes, we are different. But I am not a part of the chair I am sitting on even though we are of the same source. This is the beauty of the Manifest - the Ten Thousand Things. I am one of those Ten; the chair is another of those Ten, but we are different and separate - I can stand up, totally destroy the chair but I will still exist, the chair will not.

 

[gatito]

Where's the mirror?

 

LOL

 

That's rich from someone who relies on other people to tell him if he actually exists.

[gatito]

I would ask this: when you look at a chair, can you draw a line or see a boundary between your seeing and the chair itself? If so, where does the seeing end, and the chair begin? When you touch a chair, is there a boundary or a line between your sensation of the chair and the chair itself?

 

When I look directly into my experience, I see no such line or boundary.

 

Don't waste your time on MH.

Edited November 15, 2012 by gatito

[Marblehead]

Ah! Now you are getting into the deeper aspects of what we are talking about. (We were initially going to talk about aspects of 'self'.)

 

I would ask this: when you look at a chair, can you draw a line or see a boundary between your seeing and the chair itself?

 

No. The only boundry would be between my looking at the chair and my not looking at the chair. However, even though I may not be looking at the chair there is an excellent probability that the chair will still be there the next time I look for it. (Or if I accidently walk into it when the room is dark.)

 

If so, where does the seeing end, and the chair begin?

 

Undefinable.

 

When you touch a chair, is there a boundary or a line between your sensation of the chair and the chair itself?

 

Yes, back to the material! Indeed there is a boundry. As long as I do not touch the chair I will have no touch recognition of the chair even though I would, if I am looking at it, have a sight sensation of it.

 

When I look directly into my experience, I see no such line or boundary.

 

Try this: get up from your chair, walk into another room where you cannot see the chair you are presently sitting in and try to feel the sensation of touching it. I would bet money that you do not feel the chair. That is because there is a separation between you and the chair.

 

Or, try to experience the sensation of the smell of the lily I posted this morning. Lots of luch with that one.

[Marblehead]

LOL

 

That's rich from someone who relies on other people to tell him if he actually exists.

See! Now you have gone and misquoted me. Shame on you again.

[Marblehead]

Don't waste your time on MH.

True, trying to convert me from being an Atheist and a Materialist truely is a waste of time. But I promise I will cause you to think if you engage me.

[gatito]

See! Now you have gone and misquoted me. Shame on you again.

 

No MH

 

You can't or won't hold a line of logical reasoning.

 

You jump all over the place and you needed to bring other people into your line of reasoning to try to confirm the validity of your own preconceived notions (which hold no water when properly examined - in your own experience).

Edited November 15, 2012 by gatito

[Marblehead]

No MH

 

You can't or won't hold a line of logical reasoning.

 

You jump all over the place and you needed to bring other people into your line of reasoning to try to confirm the validity of your own preconceived notions (which hold no water when properly examined - in your own experience).

Logic is the only reasonable way of considering a concept.

 

Perhaps I seem a little pushy at time. That's part of my life of 20 years in the Army.

 

I cannot see with your eyes, I cannot feel with your hands, I cannot imagine with your brain. Yep. We are separate entities. Sorry about that.

[gatito]

Logic is the only reasonable way of considering a concept.

 

Perhaps I seem a little pushy at time. That's part of my life of 20 years in the Army.

 

I cannot see with your eyes, I cannot feel with your hands, I cannot imagine with your brain. Yep. We are separate entities. Sorry about that.

 

No. It's not your "pushiness" MH.

 

It's the refusal or the inability to follow a logical line of reasoning and whenever you're in fear of "losing" you crack jokes to divert away from the flaws in your argument.

 

What do you mean "You didn't last long". Do you think that this is some sort of p***ing contest?

Edited November 15, 2012 by gatito

[Jeff]

Logic is the only reasonable way of considering a concept.

 

Perhaps I seem a little pushy at time. That's part of my life of 20 years in the Army.

 

I cannot see with your eyes, I cannot feel with your hands, I cannot imagine with your brain. Yep. We are separate entities. Sorry about that.

 

While I sometimes disagree, I have always found your positions to be logically consistent. Some just have difficulty with differing perspectives.

 

Enjoy the day. (Painful board meeting for me).

 

[Marblehead]

No. It's not your "pushiness" MH.

 

It's the refusal or the inability to follow a logical line of reasoning and whenever you're in fear of "losing" you crack jokes to divert away from the flaws in your arguement.

 

What do you mean "You didn't last long". Do you think that this is some sort of p***ing contest?

Okay. First, I have no fears. That is a truth!

 

Secondly, I always do my best to make my arguments based on logic and reason. Logic is a very important asset of an Atheist.

 

Yes, I joke around. What's wrong with that? But I have never tried to joke my way out of a logical discussion. And I have never gotten mad because someone didn't agree with me.

 

By 'not lasting long' was a referral to your saying that you were out of this discussion. But here you are, trying to demean what I am saying just because I won't and can't say what you want me to say.

 

No, this was never meant to be a pissing contest. We came here, based on my understanding, to discuss the difference between "self" and "Self" - between the physical and the metaphysical. But we still have yet to speak to this.

[Marblehead]

While I sometimes disagree, I have always found your positions to be logically consistent. Some just have difficulty with differing perspectives.

 

Enjoy the day. (Painful board meeting for me).

 

 

Thanks.

 

Best wishes with your board meeting!

 

I expect disagreement on occasion. That's not a problem. I try to be a good little Taoist and practice the art of observing the universe and trying to find the naturalness in what I see. If I cannot experience such and such then perhaps it is a flaw of mine. But then perhpas too it is because I don't accept the illusions and delusions of other people. After all, I have enough of my own.

[gatito]

Okay. First, I have no fears. That is a truth!

 

Secondly, I always do my best to make my arguments based on logic and reason. Logic is a very important asset of an Atheist.

 

Yes, I joke around. What's wrong with that? But I have never tried to joke my way out of a logical discussion. And I have never gotten mad because someone didn't agree with me.

 

By 'not lasting long' was a referral to your saying that you were out of this discussion. But here you are, trying to demean what I am saying just because I won't and can't say what you want me to say.

 

No, this was never meant to be a pissing contest. We came here, based on my understanding, to discuss the difference between "self" and "Self" - between the physical and the metaphysical. But we still have yet to speak to this.

 

Being an Atheist is illogical but let's leave that for another day? OK?

 

Now - last time MH

 

Let me ask you a straight question and we'll see if you can give a straight reply: -

 

 

OK

 

So you are Conscious and the qualities of that Consciousness are Knowing and Being?

 

Are you sure about that or not?

 

In your own experience

 

 

If we cannot start from that basis then we're both wasting our time. Agreed?

[gatito]

True, trying to convert me from being an Atheist and a Materialist truely is a waste of time. But I promise I will cause you to think if you engage me.

 

And I've just noticed this.

 

If you think that I'm trying to "convert" you - you're sadly mistaken.

[Marblehead]

The question is: So you are Conscious and the qualities of that Consciousness are Knowing and Being?

 

 

If we cannot start from that basis then we're both wasting our time. Agreed?

Agreed.

 

Yes, I am conscious. Yes, two of the qualities of being conscious are, 1. Knowing that I am aware, and 2. That I exist (I am being).

 

I have always considered this to be a given.

[Marblehead]

And I've just noticed this.

 

If you think that I'm trying to "convert" you - you're sadly mistaken.

No, I didn't think this but there is always that possibility when I get into these types of discussions so I just wanted to mention that I am very happy with my belief systems.

[gatito]

The question is: So you are Conscious and the qualities of that Consciousness are Knowing and Being?

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

Yes, I am conscious. Yes, two of the qualities of being conscious are, 1. Knowing that I am aware, and 2. That I exist (I am being).

 

I have always considered this to be a given.

 

Fantastic!!!

 

So what can you say about Consciousness Itself?

 

Without reference to "science" - unless you know of some instrument that can measure Consciousness.

[gatito]

No, I didn't think this but there is always that possibility when I get into these types of discussions so I just wanted to mention that I am very happy with my belief systems.

 

Exactly!!!

 

Belief system - not actual fact.

 

Just BELIEF!!!!

 

There's no difference between your beliefs and those of any other religion on the planet.

Edited November 15, 2012 by gatito

[GrandmasterP]

There's the 'Gatito Mk 1 Consciousness Measurer (patent pending)

In the prototype stages at the mo but we have great hopes for it following on from the field-trail data on here to date.

Edited November 15, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Fantastic!!!

 

So what can you say about Consciousness Itself?

 

Without reference to "science" - unless you know of some instrument that can measure Consciousness.

Hehehe. I know that when I go to sleep I am no longer conscious. (I rarely dream.)

 

No, there is no way, without scientific instruments, of measuring consciousness. It just is. (A result of the brain's processes, of course.

[gatito]

There's the 'Gatito Mk 1 Consciousness Measurer (patent pending)

In the prototype stages at the mo but we have great hopes for it following on from the field-trail data on here to date.

 

Nope - the point is that everyone has their own Mk 1 Consciousness Measurer and relying on anyone else's Mk 1 Consciousness Measurer is religion rather than experiential self-knowledge.

[GrandmasterP]

Spot on bro.

Anybody takes a smidgen of notice of some tw*t wearing their collar back to front, or shaven headed in orange frocks etc etc is wasting their time, full stop.

It's a con and a sham is religion, all of it, without exception and those who make any sort of living from peddling religion to gullible fools are amongst, if not the; lowest scum of the earth.

[Marblehead]

Exactly!!!

 

Belief system - not actual fact.

 

Just BELIEF!!!!

 

There's no difference between your beliefs and those of any other religion on the planet.

But my beliefs are based in fact as I presently understand them. Facts change over time as we learn new knowledge.

 

There is a vast difference between my belief systems, based in fact as I currently understand them, and a belief system that is based in illusion and delusion.

 

I will add here that I have never suggested to anyone that they should give up their beliefs that are based in illusion and delusion and accept mine as the only truth.

 

My beliefs are my truths. Your, or anyone else's, beliefs are yours or their truths.

 

When I prepare to sit in my chair I always believe that it exists and is not an illusion. I have never hit the floor once. I think that's a good belief.

 

I was raised to believe in a god. Where is god? I couldn't find one. Therefore I do not believe in any gods (or devils).