Taoist criticisms on Zen

[exorcist_1699]

Taoist criticisms on Zen are always implicit and hard to find , they scatter and hide among few , unrecognizable paragraphs of the Taoist classics. Taoism does not criticize Zen's goal of attaining the Buddha Heart, but its method of accomplishing it .

 

While Taoist alchemy relies on qi to nourish the Meta-Mind , and those I-Ching 's trigrams to explain the process , Zen 's method lies in mind's self negation, mind's self-stripping off its own shackles, through a series of questionings and refutations ; if possible, done is a concentrated , one-stroke way, without allowing a hair-splitting mind sneaking in , so as to attain the Buddhist Heart,

 

Taoist criticism on Zen's way is simple : Without other force's help , how can a trivial ,karma- tormented mind change itself and turn into a geat Mind? Although bubbles and ripples are part of the great sea that produce them, they are only its trivial, temporal and fluctuated expressions , not the sea itself, let alone becoming the sea..

 

Instead, Taoist alchemy provides another solution , which although looks strange to Buddhists and others , seems easier to grasp : By making use of water to counteract fire ( in five-element terms), or Yang* in the trigram Kan to assimmilate Yin in the Li trigram( in I-Ching's framework ) ,a great mind will arise; we can turn people into gods , if not God; extend life to thousands of years, if not forever...

 

* this Yang is the source of all qi in our body...as Zhao Yuan Du(趙緣督) said: "一點陽精, 秘在形山, 不在心腎...."

Edited October 7, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[Taomeow]

Taoist criticisms on Zen are always implicit and hard to find , they scatter and hide among few , unrecognizable paragraphs of the Taoist classics. Taoism does not criticize Zen's goal of attaining the Buddha Heart, but its method of accomplishing it .

 

While Taoist alchemy relies on qi to nourish the Meta-Mind , and those I-Ching 's trigrams to explain the process ,

Zen 's method lies in mind's self negation, mind's self-stripping off it own shackles, through a series of questionings and refutations , if possible, done is a concentrated , one-stroke way, so as to attain the Buddhist Heart.

 

Taoist criticism on Zen's way is simple : Without other force's help , how can a trivial ,karma- tormented mind change itself and turn into a geat Mind? Although bubbles and ripples are part of the great sea that produce them, they are only its trivial and fluctuated expressions , not the sea itself, let alone becoming the sea..

 

Instead, Taoist alchemy provides another solution , which although looks strange to Buddhists and others , seems easier to grasp : By making use of water to counteract fire ( in five-element terms), or Yang* in the trigram Kan to assimmilate Yin in the Li trigram( in I-Ching's framework ) ,a great mind will arise; we can turn people into gods , if not God; extend life to thousands of years, if not forever...

 

* this Yang is the source of all qi in our body...as Zhao Yuan Du(趙緣督) said: "一點陽精, 秘在形山, 不在心腎...."

 

Cool topic, keep 'm coming.

 

This yang line is a very interesting one indeed. It actually stands for zhi, or to be more precise, the yang zhi of the kidneys (they also have yin zhi -- the other two lines), the shen of will, willpower, intent, the goal-setting aspect of the human spirit. The idea that this yang is the source of all qi in the body seems far out until one considers that it is stored in the jing and is in fact the very mover-shaker aspect of jing that gets it to transform to qi. What it means, astonishingly enough, is that it takes will for jing to transform into qi. (The sperm swimming frantically upstream, toward the egg, against millions of competitors, on sheer willpower... picture this! )

 

Not surprisingly, when the opposite goal is set (as it is in taoist alchemy, i.e. the goal of reversing the flow and gathering qi back into jing), that will require the kind of willpower which is greater to the same extent that rowing your boat against the current requires many times the effort (will) of rowing with the current. (Just letting your boat float downstream is for non-cultivators, contrary to pop-spiritual beliefs.)

 

Zen, for all its accomplishments, would be blind to the fact that a lack of will is a lack of kidney yang (a still worse scenario is a lack of kidney yin -- with kidney yang deficiency one must only go against fear, anxiety, anger, rage, apathy, and depression, while with kidney yin deficiency one must go against destiny!.. to get anywhere...) So they couldn't tell someone who needs a kick in the ass from someone who needs a needle in the mingmen and an oxtail and pork kidneys soup in her bowl...

[Marblehead]

Cool topic, keep 'm coming.

Indeed, please do. I can't promise many replies but I will be reading.

[Ish]

I would think the main criticisms against Zen would be a lack of cultivating energy or life.

The risk of falling into a "dead" void, i believe within the Zen traditions they call it Zen sickness.

 

I reckon in a lot of high level Taoist alchemy systems the methods of cultivating the original mind or nature are quite similar to Zen, but there is also a big emphasis on the Immortality and nei gong aspect.

 

Im sure many of the practioners here will notice that successfully practing their qigong will improve their meditation also.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Ish

[exorcist_1699]

Cool topic, keep 'm coming.

 

This yang line is a very interesting one indeed. It actually stands for zhi, or to be more precise, the yang zhi of the kidneys (they also have yin zhi -- the other two lines), the shen of will, willpower, intent, the goal-setting aspect of the human spirit. The idea that this yang is the source of all qi in the body seems far out until one considers that it is stored in the jing and is in fact the very mover-shaker aspect of jing that gets it to transform to qi. What it means, astonishingly enough, is that it takes will for jing to transform into qi. (The sperm swimming frantically upstream, toward the egg, against millions of competitors, on sheer willpower... picture this! )

 

Not surprisingly, when the opposite goal is set (as it is in taoist alchemy, i.e. the goal of reversing the flow and gathering qi back into jing), that will require the kind of willpower which is greater to the same extent that rowing your boat against the current requires many times the effort (will) of rowing with the current. (Just letting your boat float downstream is for non-cultivators, contrary to pop-spiritual beliefs.)

 

 

Thanks.

 

Jing, in its materialized form, always goes downwards, hardly can we reverse it , direct it upwards to our head ; it is after having it changed to the form of qi, can we lead it upwards and circulate it around our body .( By the way , qi , with jing assimilated inside, that comes to our head and face , is a definitely a high-quality dose of nutrition for persistent

youth and beauty :-) )

 

Unfortunately , qi that circulates in our body is stuff that can't give us forever youth because it is a limited lump

sum, localized in our body, limited by it ; so, from the point of view of pre-heavenly qi, existing qi is still something post- heavenly.

[exorcist_1699]

Indeed, please do. I can't promise many replies but I will be reading.

 

Thanks .

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I've always seen zen as a less intentional and more natural flow approach.

 

"just let it happen" kind of idea.

 

It's part in learning and educating and cultivating, but more part in doing so without strict intent or regimine. regamin. reg- however you spell it

 

 

You cultivate without trying to cultivate. If the intent is there, it will unfold on it's own natural course, dont try to alter that or assist it, jsut let it go on it's course as it will.

 

 

If the intent is not there, then zen might be initiated by intentionally cultivating the intent to cultivate the self, the chi, and the spirit (or shen).

 

 

However, naming things is so un-zen

[ChiDragon]

Thanks.

 

Jing, in its materialized form, always goes downwards, hardly can we reverse it , direct it upwards to our head ; it is after having it changed to the form of qi, can we lead it upwards and circulate it around our body .( By the way , qi , with jing assimilated inside, that comes to our head and face , is a definitely a high-quality dose of nutrition for persistent

youth and beauty :-) )

 

Unfortunately , qi that circulates in our body is stuff that can't give us forever youth because it is a limited lump

sum, localized in our body, limited by it ; so, from the point of view of pre-heavenly qi, existing qi is still something post- heavenly.

 

I'd just read an update on the Jing, Chi, and Shen. The pre-parental qi was sustained by the post-parental qi. The purpose of practicing Chi Kung was to continuously to provide the universal natural Chi to the body for nourishing the pre-natal qi. Otherwise, the pre-natal qi will be diminished and the human body dies.

 

BTW We are talking about three kinds of Qi here:

1. Pre-natal Qi: a primordial substance of the body structure.

2. Post-natal Qi: the function of item 1 and the energy within the body.

3. Universal Qi: The Chi that we breathe into our lungs.

 

If one knows the nuance of the three, then one will have a thorough understanding about Chi Kung and TCM....

Edited February 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

 

Jing, in its materialized form, always goes downwards, hardly can we reverse it , direct it upwards to our head ; it is after having it changed to the form of qi, can we lead it upwards and circulate it around our body .

 

We are having a sacred-geometrical disagreement here.

 

Jing in its material form (which is only a fraction of its overall function, that of ontogenic memory) is more or less the DNA, the genome, and zygotes; DNA and the genes propagate in all directions (in accordance with the expansive yang aspect of jing), while zygotes behave according to their yin or yang nature (that is, the yin ones sit still and the yang ones flow upward -- conception is not possible any other way due to the peculiarities of female anatomy. That's why the spermatozoons have tails and use them too, very vigorously. The egg doesn't -- she doesn't need it, she's not going anywhere, she's sitting there waiting for the prince's kiss to wake up. )

 

However, taoist alchemy the real thing is not aimed at reversing the flow of material jing, and is not after pumping any of it toward the head. This, transmutation of jing to qi to shen, is an upward-directed process that IS the "flowing downstream" metaphorically but "flowing upstream" directionally, the actual geometry of the process is upward-bound, jing fizzles out into qi and qi into shen by the very process of living (or at least "civilized" living taoism was designed to correct) -- we use up the jing this way, we die. "The whisk still burns brightly when it has absorbed the last drop of the oil from the lamp, not knowing there's no more, not knowing it's dead."

 

The Western term that roughly catches this process of transformation of vital aliveness to some "higher" -- physically higher, in the head -- purposes and ideas and accomplishments is "sublimation." What do we "sublimate" when we write poetry, solve mathematical problems, or contemplate the mysteries of the universe? Our vital force. What do we turn it into when we do? Puff... into out-of-body stuff.

 

So, the goal of alchemy is bring it back INTO the body. No more puff. Gather shen and direct it down, to qi. Gather qi and direct it down, to jing. This is very uniquely taoist, by the way. Everybody else is pumping the head with what-not. Taoists are after a lighter head, taoists work on reversing the process of getting top heavy... This is done with ALL taoist practices, not just alchemy. E.g., taiji. Ever wondered why there isn't a single high level taiji master in existence who's bulked up the upper body and arms, and instead they all have the legs of a horse? Nah, you don't drag things up in taoism, they've been dragged way up by the whole process of un-taoing as it is... So, you don't want stuff to go FROM the kidneys INTO the heart-head (or, the way they put it in translations, heart-mind... Li, in other words.) No. You want to do the opposite. You want to drag the Li DOWN to meet Kan, not vice versa...

 

...well, at least at the stage of alchemy that will take a minimum of the first decade... what happens next is different, but the common mistake of starting at the "next" stage, taking an alchemical shortcut, is one hundred percent unproductive...

[Aetherous]

So, the goal of alchemy is bring it back INTO the body. No more puff.

 

I disagree.

 

That is an excellent methodology for being grounded and healthy...but it has nothing to do with Taoist alchemy, which is all about the puff (yet it is not about being ungrounded or unhealthy).

 

Taoist alchemy is not just out of body experiences, but sublimating the body itself. Unifying body mind and spirit into one...then what happens if the body itself is indifferentiable from spirit? Then "the body" is "puff", yeah?

 

You want to drag the Li DOWN to meet Kan, not vice versa...

 

That's only one part of the path, which after some time automatically causes the "golden sparks" to fly upward, from behind the navel to the head.

 

There's a lot more to learn than just what we think we know...because we're still relatively mortal.

[exorcist_1699]

Zen's method is for "professional" practitioners , boys who become monk and live in temples, most likely starting from their teenage or early 20's; Taoist method is for middle or old guys ( or women) , most likely married, who come to know Taoism late in their lifetime ; That is , Taoist way recognize the fact that most people experience their deficient state in jing and qi when they meet Tao , and , unlikely can succeed by following Zen's method. So, you can say that Taoism adopts a more realistic approach .

 

In fact, it is unlikely that a yin-type, trivial mind can , without other help, become a great Mind; All yin-typed mind's methods: Visualization, focus your attention on something/ somewhere ,singing some kind of spells, praying , reasoning...etc, the most they can make you into is a witch or psychic, not a real god, I mean , a Taoist god..

Edited October 7, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[JohnC]

Taoist method is for middle or old guys ( or women) , most likely married, who come to know Taoism late in their lifetime ; That is , Taoist way recognize the fact that most people experience their deficient state in jing and qi when they meet Tao , and , unlikelycan succeed by following Zen's method. So, you can say that Taoism adopts a more realistic approach .

That is a nice belief, but there are plenty of taoists that started young, and zen monks that started old. And you state 'succeed' as if there is a goal to zen. Or even one to taoism. What you goal is may not be other's goals.

 

According to your view and that belief of taoism and zen, it could be more realistic... but that is just your perspective.

 

John

[GrandmasterP]

Taoists critiquing Zen is like a Grandparent critiquing their own grandchild. Very very rare indeed. More likely grandpa or granny gives praise and encouragement and in their eyes anyway the grandchild can do no wrong. Of course the kid's mum and dad might see things differently. Hence PL/Shin/Zen disageements. But Tao and Zen in conflict?

I really think not. All paths are Tao at bottom. Zen is a super cultivation as are PL and Shin and the previous poster is so right that some cultivation methods are more comfortable to older people than others. Many of the lagely senior QiGong cultivators you can see in Chinese parks each morning will have been WuShu or similar cultivators when younger. PL is easier than prolonged zazen hence it is popular with older ladies especially. There is no etter or worse in cultivation. All cultivation, adhered to; is beneficial whatever its lineage and there's a cultivation path to suit all ages both genders and every personal preference and level of physical stamina . To engage in any.. 'my way is better than yours'discourse is ultimately futile. Those who do so might do well to examine their motives for so doing. One suspects those motives would be discovered north of the neck from whence much dissension stems. Other, better foci for 'feelings' are available to all via cultivation.

[GrandmasterP]

And isn't it sweet that a poster having chosen the name 'exorcist' appears to be promoting an idea that the object of cultivation is to become a "Taoist god"?

Delicious irony.

[exorcist_1699]

And isn't it sweet that a poster having chosen the name 'exorcist' appears to be promoting an idea that the object of cultivation is to become a "Taoist god"?

Delicious irony.

 

In the past, even in modern times, Taoist sifu is the person whom most ordinary Chinese people likely think of when their houses are haunted by ghosts or evils; so, Taoist master is also asked to perform some kind of " exorcist" job ; Of course, in my case ,it is just a strange name I pick up for drawing people's attention , no special meaning :- )

 

After having accumulated and refined our qi to certain degree, a meta-Mind does pop up from us , which possess some strange power and is different from the ever-experiencing mind we get , so we can call It some kind of god.

[Cheshire Cat]

Why should a daoist criticizes someone for doing wrong??

 

Of course, daoist cultivation coexists with C'han cultivation methods.

Which one is superior since the buddhist themselves talk about "attaining the Dao" ?

[Cheshire Cat]

Edit: double post

Edited October 6, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[exorcist_1699]

That is a nice belief, but there are plenty of taoists that started young, and zen monks that started old. And you state 'succeed' as if there is a goal to zen. Or even one to taoism. What you goal is may not be other's goals.

 

According to your view and that belief of taoism and zen, it could be more realistic... but that is just your perspective.

 

John

 

Yes, there is a goal. In case of Taoism, it is to attain the Meta-Mind (元神) ; in case of Zen , it is to attain the Buddha Heart; For Taoist teenager practitioners, they can skip the stage of accumulating jing and qi; and by using a method similar to the Zen's, to directly attain the Meta-Mind. In fact, there is a Taoist school , called the Primordial (先天派 ) , follows this path..

Edited October 6, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

I do not say Zen's way is wrong , what I say is : its success is something conditional;

Edited October 6, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[Birch]

Taoism helps me through Zen's dark nights.

Kundalini craps up your adrenals.

[GrandmasterP]

In the past, even in modern times, Taoist sifu is the person whom most ordinary Chinese people likely think of when their houses are haunted by ghosts or evils; so, Taoist master is also asked to perform some kind of " exorcist" job ; Of course, in my case ,it is just a strange name I pick up for drawing people's attention , no special meaning :- )

 

After having accumulated and refined our qi to certain degree, a meta-Mind does pop up from us , which possess some strange power and is different from the ever-experiencing mind we get , so we can call It some kind of god.

.........................................................

Fair enough.

We keep pretty busy in England with entity clearing and fortune telling too. It is a major income stream for Taoist centres here much the same as in HK and Taiwan. More people come to our centre for fortune telling than any other reason.

[Cheshire Cat]

Taoist criticism on Zen's way is simple : Without other force's help , how can a trivial ,karma- tormented mind change itself and turn into a geat Mind?

 

Spiritual cultivation is not about transforming one's mind.

You cannot change the Unreal and make it Real. You cannot make rice from boiling sands (I feel so wise when I write this )

 

Cultivation is about letting go of the limited mind so that the real mind of the Dao can reveal itself naturally.

 

The concept of transformation emphasized in daoism does not refer to the mind, but to the body.

Edited October 7, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[silas]

>>While Taoist alchemy relies on qi to nourish the Meta-Mind , and those I-Ching 's trigrams to explain the process , Zen 's method lies in mind's self negation, mind's self-stripping off its own shackles, through a series of questionings and refutations , if possible, done is a concentrated , one-stroke way, so as to attain the Buddhist Heart.

 

Taoist criticism on Zen's way is simple...

 

 

A view from classical Taoism: classical Taoism would not critique Zen b/c it is part of the cacophony of the world. All things return to Tao in the end, but until then, they may continue to evolve within the matrix of creation - the taiji energy field - as they transform from one life cycle to another. All religions are within Tao, and their afterlife worlds are situated within the matrix as well. Classical Taoism does not speak of the Tao Meta-Mind, but does speak of nuturing one's inborn nature, strengthening one's Te and flowing with Tao currents to attain destiny. Attaining destiny is important b/c the Tao itself is evolving, and the shape and state of things are part of that evolution. Tao in classical Taoism is spontaneous and does not think or deliberate. Within this framework, a classical Taoist sees all other religions as neighbors, as formations within Tao, different forms and paths but all part of the whole, part of the evolution of Tao.

[adept]

All things return to Tao in the end...

 

But to where does Tao return ?

[silas]

>But to where does Tao return ?

 

Tao returns to nowhere b/c Tao is nothing, non-existence.

Edited October 7, 2012 by silas