Taoist criticisms on Zen

[Jetsun]

Taoist criticism on Zen's way is simple : Without other force's help , how can a trivial ,karma- tormented mind change itself and turn into a geat Mind? Although bubbles and ripples are part of the great sea that produce them, they are only its trivial, temporal and fluctuated expressions , not the sea itself, let alone becoming the sea..

 

 

I think this is a misunderstanding of what Zen is trying to do. They aren't trying to change anything. The tormented karmic mind is already arising within and is part of great mind, the wave is inherently part of the sea. Basically we are like fish looking for water, so its not about changing the mind in to something else, its about recogising what already is.

 

My own criticism of Zen is that it can lack heart and can neglect health and support with the energetic side, plus it has acquired Japanese conditioning in many cases which can be limiting, especially on the emotional level.

[shanlung]

In talking of HuiNeng, I was actually by his side and looking up at him.

Before you think I am another outrageous claimer, even if I am no Russian with pointy elbows, have a look at my account

and you decide if I was beside HuiNung and looking up at him.

 

In this case, no photos were taken of him.  You will understand when you read my account.

Up to you to believe that or whatever you want to believe.

 

From yet another of my Livejournal entry

 

Taiping thoughts //Camera malfunction at NanHwaShi//Combat Taijichuan -some notes

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/141331.html

 

 

 

Camera malfunction at NanHwaShi

I had made entries elsewhere that I thought I should include into the livejournal.
You recalled my Fragments of earlier memories http://shanlung.livejournal.com/111670.html
I told about that entity which fogged up my camera and my wife camera.

That was not the only time cameras malfunctioned.
There was another of such occurence.
http://thetaobums.com/topic/24841-fragments-of-earlier-memories-of-taiwan/page-2
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:42 PM
It was the recent discussions on the 6th Patriach HuiNeng that brought this back from my memories.

It was in the mid 1990s where I was living in a small fishing village Sai Kung in the New Territories of Hongkong. Which was next door to Guangzhou.

I made a lot of small trips into Guangzhou, and a lot of longer trips into far flung parts of China.
But this was one of the smaller trip into the province of Guangzhou.

To Shaoquan and a temple NanHwaSi 南華寺 near that town. And later on you realised why I wrote of that in this particular thread.

Travels in those days were nothing like the travelling in China of nowadays. Buses were crowded and roads small and potholed.
Money, especially USD was a lot bigger than, and pace of life much slower.

NanHwaSi was a vast sprawling Zen monastery with history stretching back over a thousand years and more. One of the reasons why I went to NanHuaSi was the purported mummifed remains of the 6th Patriach HuiNeng in the monastery.

I have said HuiNeng went on to settle in PoLin Monastery. That was correct. That was the name when he went there in 700AD. Song Dynasty Emperor Taizong changed the name to NanHwaSi in 968AD. Which was why the mummified remains of HuiNeng was in Nanhwasi.

I stayed over in the domitories of NanHwaSi for a few nights. Ample time to explore the vast grounds of Nanhwasi. And to see, taste and smell the goings and the rituals of the temple which started before the break of dawn. The crystal clear sound of a bell with the beating throbbing of the wooden fish interlace with the chants of prayers.

How much of the temple was old and how much rebuilt I could not tell. Apparently horrors of Chinese civil war aka the Red Guards visited this place. Only the prestige of departed Patriach Hsu Yun saved this old temple from even worse horrors. For those who do not know, Hsu Yun was the acknowledged Patriach of all Zen temples be them North or South.

HuiNeng body was behind glass panels. I looked as closely as I could and was disappointed that it looked like carved out of wood. Apparently it was truly mummified. Japanese occupation during WW2 examined the body to show bones and internal organs. HuiNeng was very highly respected by the Japanese and also the presence of Hsu Yun was very highly regarded.

There were signs and posters that no photography allowed of HuiNeng's mummy.

In those days, only the posters were there with no custodians. The only human or humanoid in the room was yours truly and his friend and HuiNeng.

I took a few photos with flash. Then I turned off the flash to take even more photos in case the glass reflect the flash..

I eventually went back to Hongkong to see the digital photos I had taken with my Olympus
Photos of the NanHwaSi were beautiful and clear, of the temple and of the grounds.

All the photos taken of HuiNeng, with the flash, and without the flash, were all fogged over. All photos before , and after were ok.

This was in about 1996, way before that strange incident with my camera and my wife's camera of the little road side temple in 2002 as I related in Fragments. When I found the cameras could not shoot that temple, I recollected the incident of NanHwaSi immediately there and then.

And as that entity fingered my hard drive, non of the photos of NanHwaSi can now be seen, unfogged or fogged, and many other photos of my travelling about in China, near and far.

Idiot on the Path

[shanlung]

My innate puerile curiosity got fired up, wondering if it was only me who could not take photos of Hui Neng.

 

So I turned Google to the task.

 

Lo Behold!

 

Other photographers did manage to shoot his body, and you can see the sprawling ground of NanHuaSi , the temple I stayed in for a few days that time long long ago.

 

 

https://www.google.com.sa/search?q=南華寺&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=h-zmVOCILIOyUYiSgIAL&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=965

Edited February 20, 2015 by shanlung

[woodcarver]

I think zen is great under dao philosophy hahaha.

 

The cultivation without the outside force aiding is interesting... but zen is just removing the resistance and clearing naturally.

 

Zen sickness mentioned in this thread totally sounds like me though. I will give you that one.

[exorcist_1699]

It is easy for people to understand mind power , however,  for most of them , to understand  no-mind power is another story . 

 

Zen's  ways of preaching itself  , although  split in many styles and  forms,  are always  proved to be useless for most people ; the appearance of Zen sickness is nearly something  destined on the first day  when Zen emerged  for  the human mind is not designed to grasp thing  devoid of  any characteristics,  layers , aspects ...

 

Zen is too ' arrogant' to talk about  concepts such as  jing and  qi,  yet  to any serious and smart person , an inquiry into how Taoist alchemy views Zen's ways is definitely beneficial . Buddhism is the top achievement of the Indian culture, Taoism , to me , is  the utmost that the Chinese can accomplish , the intercourse of these two great cultures  gives rise to  Zen , a spiritual  system that no  wise person can afford to ignore .

Edited March 20, 2015 by exorcist_1699

[Rara]

I would think the main criticisms against Zen would be a lack of cultivating energy or life.

The risk of falling into a "dead" void, i believe within the Zen traditions they call it Zen sickness.

 

I reckon in a lot of high level Taoist alchemy systems the methods of cultivating the original mind or nature are quite similar to Zen, but there is also a big emphasis on the Immortality and nei gong aspect.

 

Im sure many of the practioners here will notice that successfully practing their qigong will improve their meditation also.

I practiced zazen for a while a few years back. While the method was good for concentration and awareness, I did find myself becoming very sad a lot of the time.

 

Some people said it wasgood for me. The problem was, it wouldn't subside!

[Rara]

We are having a sacred-geometrical disagreement here. http://www.thetaobums.com/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/smile.gif

 

Jing in its material form (which is only a fraction of its overall function, that of ontogenic memory) is more or less the DNA, the genome, and zygotes; DNA and the genes propagate in all directions (in accordance with the expansive yang aspect of jing), while zygotes behave according to their yin or yang nature (that is, the yin ones sit still and the yang ones flow upward -- conception is not possible any other way due to the peculiarities of female anatomy. That's why the spermatozoons have tails and use them too, very vigorously. The egg doesn't -- she doesn't need it, she's not going anywhere, she's sitting there waiting for the prince's kiss to wake up. http://www.thetaobums.com/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/smile.gif )

 

However, taoist alchemy the real thing is not aimed at reversing the flow of material jing, and is not after pumping any of it toward the head. This, transmutation of jing to qi to shen, is an upward-directed process that IS the "flowing downstream" metaphorically but "flowing upstream" directionally, the actual geometry of the process is upward-bound, jing fizzles out into qi and qi into shen by the very process of living (or at least "civilized" living taoism was designed to correct) -- we use up the jing this way, we die. "The whisk still burns brightly when it has absorbed the last drop of the oil from the lamp, not knowing there's no more, not knowing it's dead."

 

The Western term that roughly catches this process of transformation of vital aliveness to some "higher" -- physically higher, in the head -- purposes and ideas and accomplishments is "sublimation." What do we "sublimate" when we write poetry, solve mathematical problems, or contemplate the mysteries of the universe? Our vital force. What do we turn it into when we do? Puff... into out-of-body stuff.

 

So, the goal of alchemy is bring it back INTO the body. No more puff. Gather shen and direct it down, to qi. Gather qi and direct it down, to jing. This is very uniquely taoist, by the way. Everybody else is pumping the head with what-not. Taoists are after a lighter head, taoists work on reversing the process of getting top heavy... This is done with ALL taoist practices, not just alchemy. E.g., taiji. Ever wondered why there isn't a single high level taiji master in existence who's bulked up the upper body and arms, and instead they all have the legs of a horse?http://www.thetaobums.com/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/laugh.gif Nah, you don't drag things up in taoism, they've been dragged way up by the whole process of un-taoing as it is... So, you don't want stuff to go FROM the kidneys INTO the heart-head (or, the way they put it in translations, heart-mind... Li, in other words.) No. You want to do the opposite. You want to drag the Li DOWN to meet Kan, not vice versa...

 

...well, at least at the stage of alchemy that will take a minimum of the first decade... what happens next is different, but the common mistake of starting at the "next" stage, taking an alchemical shortcut, is one hundred percent unproductive...

Love this!

 

It's how I prefer to talk about things such as qi...always relating back to a practical example

Edited March 20, 2015 by Rara

[Rara]

Zen's method is for "professional" practitioners , boys who become monk and live in temples, most likely starting from their teenage or early 20's; Taoist method is for middle or old guys ( or women) , most likely married, who come to know Taoism late in their lifetime ; That is , Taoist way recognize the fact that most people experience their deficient state in jing and qi when they meet Tao , and , unlikely can succeed by following Zen's method. So, you can say that Taoism adopts a more realistic approach .

 

In fact, it is unlikely that a yin-type, trivial mind can , without other help, become a great Mind; All yin-typed mind's methods: Visualization, focus your attention on something/ somewhere ,singing some kind of spells, praying , reasoning...etc, the most they can make you into is a witch or psychic, not a real god, I mean , a Taoist god..

I met Tao in my early 20s and certainly have learnt how my head and uncontrolled sex drive were responsible for a lot of my "problems".

[Rara]

All religions are within Tao, and their afterlife worlds are situated within the matrix as well.

This sentence would not sit well if spoken to someone of another religion haha.

[Daoisme]

We are having a sacred-geometrical disagreement here.

 

Jing in its material form (which is only a fraction of its overall function, that of ontogenic memory) is more or less the DNA, the genome, and zygotes; DNA and the genes propagate in all directions (in accordance with the expansive yang aspect of jing), while zygotes behave according to their yin or yang nature (that is, the yin ones sit still and the yang ones flow upward -- conception is not possible any other way due to the peculiarities of female anatomy. That's why the spermatozoons have tails and use them too, very vigorously. The egg doesn't -- she doesn't need it, she's not going anywhere, she's sitting there waiting for the prince's kiss to wake up. )

 

However, taoist alchemy the real thing is not aimed at reversing the flow of material jing, and is not after pumping any of it toward the head. This, transmutation of jing to qi to shen, is an upward-directed process that IS the "flowing downstream" metaphorically but "flowing upstream" directionally, the actual geometry of the process is upward-bound, jing fizzles out into qi and qi into shen by the very process of living (or at least "civilized" living taoism was designed to correct) -- we use up the jing this way, we die. "The whisk still burns brightly when it has absorbed the last drop of the oil from the lamp, not knowing there's no more, not knowing it's dead."

 

The Western term that roughly catches this process of transformation of vital aliveness to some "higher" -- physically higher, in the head -- purposes and ideas and accomplishments is "sublimation." What do we "sublimate" when we write poetry, solve mathematical problems, or contemplate the mysteries of the universe? Our vital force. What do we turn it into when we do? Puff... into out-of-body stuff.

 

So, the goal of alchemy is bring it back INTO the body. No more puff. Gather shen and direct it down, to qi. Gather qi and direct it down, to jing. This is very uniquely taoist, by the way. Everybody else is pumping the head with what-not. Taoists are after a lighter head, taoists work on reversing the process of getting top heavy... This is done with ALL taoist practices, not just alchemy. E.g., taiji. Ever wondered why there isn't a single high level taiji master in existence who's bulked up the upper body and arms, and instead they all have the legs of a horse? Nah, you don't drag things up in taoism, they've been dragged way up by the whole process of un-taoing as it is... So, you don't want stuff to go FROM the kidneys INTO the heart-head (or, the way they put it in translations, heart-mind... Li, in other words.) No. You want to do the opposite. You want to drag the Li DOWN to meet Kan, not vice versa...

 

...well, at least at the stage of alchemy that will take a minimum of the first decade... what happens next is different, but the common mistake of starting at the "next" stage, taking an alchemical shortcut, is one hundred percent unproductive...

 

 I know this was a while ago ,  but I thought this was interesting...    Was well written  although I have a few questions and disagreements.   Hopefully we can discuss this more.

 

There are many agreements but I want to bring up a few points of debate.

 

First of all is it really fair to say that SHEN is downstream from QI?  (it does seem evident that jing is most upstream that I agree)

 

Second, you mention the yang aspect of jing as a moving force however there is also an issue here....

 

Yang Contracts (yang generates but is not expansive) (salt is very yang),  Yin expands (but doesn't generate).  This is one of the fundamentals of yin and yang.  I think a more accurate characterization of jing is that yang is the contractile element that maintains the yin moisture. Jing is a case of perfect yang and yin tightly wound together.    yang QI , that's the moving force.

 

Third also Id be interested in hearing about how alchemy and the different stages you mentioned at the end play together    And what you call "rowing backwards" is very interesting topic too whether relating to qigong or other alchemy related things, hopefully we can bounce ideas off each other relating to this

Edited February 14, 2016 by Daoisme

[Aaron]

I'm not necessarily an authority on the topic, but from what I've learned their were basically two main schools of Taoism in China, the Northern School and the Southern School. The Northern school was more focused on contemplation and meditation and the Southern school more on the accumulation of Qi through internal alchemy. The problem that arises from criticizing Zen from a Taoist perspective is that the goal is not the same. Ch'an Buddhists were heavily influenced by the Northern school of Taoism.

 

Zen Buddhists (and Ch'an Buddhists) strive to reach enlightenment through awareness of the breath and mind. Mental stillness and the use of koans allow one to reach enlightenment, whereas traditional Southern Chinese Taoist practices focus on cultivation of qi, not for the purpose of enlightenment (in most cases) but rather the cultivation of one's own mind and body, with the goal of immortality playing a large part. (I make this distinction since this is what I believe the original poster was talking about.) Zen Buddhists do not consider immortality to be a goal, since all things are transient in nature, so the idea of becoming immortal isn't something they would even consider (although one could say after reaching a state of Buddhist enlightenment that all things are immortal in a sense anyways.) 

 

Overall I don't think you can compare the two, aside from the fact that Northern Ch'an Buddhists picked up their method of silent mind meditation from the Taoists school in the north of China and most likely were Taoist converts. In the end Taoism and Buddhism approach reality from two different angles, Taoists with dualism, but more of a shamanistic and naturalistic approach, and Buddhists with their non-dualism philosophy.

 

The curious phenomena is that many Taoists masters will talk about Tao in the same context that Zen Buddhists talk about Zen, so it would be interesting to posit that both reach the same awareness, but use different methods and understandings of the world based on their own cultural awareness.

 

As for me, I think we can learn from all teachings, so to criticize one school of philosophy without practicing it cuts us off from the potential that experience offers us.  

Edited February 26, 2016 by Aaron

[Wu Ming Jen]

That was Zen this is Tao . Tao had a baby with buddha called Chan. When Chan moved to japan from china he changed his name to Zen to fit in with the all male monastery that welcomed him. The lack of females  required zen not to increase vitality and find direct transcendence without his body. The mysterious female was sad for Zen and wished he could have learned more from his mother.  Zen went on to do great things but always had a missing part of his heart.