Taoist criticisms on Zen

[Cheshire Cat]

the Tao itself is evolving, and the shape and state of things are part of that evolution.

 

I think that the idea of evolution is darwinian stuff.

Tao is about changing. Evolving is relative.

[GrandmasterP]

Evolution is a man made concept. Had to be a man who came up with the notion cos women are just so much wiser.

Something changes into something else is a nice idea and on a very limited scale that works. Hence we see Great Danes and Yorkshire Terriers. But both know that inside they are dogs [The Yorkie really knows that she is actually 'Fang The Slayer of Worlds' whereas the Great Dane is 'Mr Cuddles'. Hence whenever they meet she challenges him to..... "BRING IT ON BIG BOY AND LET'S SEE HOW LONG THOSE ANKLES OF YOURS WILL LAST!"].

To ascribe any man made theory such as evolution to Tao is whimsical at best.

Tao cannot be described so why waste cultivation-time trying to do so?

[silas]

>Evolution is a man made concept.... Tao cannot be described so why waste cultivation-time trying to do so?

 

The TTC does say that Tao cannot be adequately described, but the whole volume is, in fact, an attempt to describe it - aspects of it, necessary to reference it.

 

Evolution is a word to describe a natural process. In this passage from the Chuang Tzu (a core text of classical Taoism) often cited as a description of evolution, note that transformation is NOT limited to a species:

 

The seeds of things have mysterious workings. In the water they become Break Vine, on the edges of the water they become Frog’s Robe. If they sprout on the slopes they become Hill Slippers. If Hill Slippers get rich soil, they turn into Crow’s Feet. The roots…..Sheep’s Groom couples with bamboo that has not sprouted for a long while and produces Green Peace plants. Green Peace plants produce leopards and leopards produce horses and horses produce men. Men in time return again to the mysterious workings. So all creatures come out of the mysterious workings and go back into them again.

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ChuangTzu ch. 18. Watson, Burton, The Complete Works Of Chuang Tzu, p. 195.

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Edited October 7, 2012 by silas

[GrandmasterP]

Yes the scientistic crowd do use that one. Whatever supports a thesis is always welcomed.

Other readings are made of the same passage but no single reading will convince another interpreting the same passage differently.

Chang Tzu does not say this or that explicitly, it simply says hence all readings,and readers; are equal and equally valid.

Any belief about what a Taoist text says is quite different to the text itself.

Belief being another burden shed along the path.

Hopefully.

[silas]

>Other readings are made of the same passage but no single reading will convince another interpreting the same passage differently.

 

It is true that many passages in the LaoTzu and the ChuangTzu may be interpreted differently by different readers. The key to a unified interpretation is to study the overall direction of the texts, and they are all about dealing with constant change and transformation in the universe, all about the evolution of the universe when that word means change and transformation. Change and transformation in classical Taoism often imply sequence and repeating patterns, which connote the modern definition of evolution. The core texts of classical Taoism (LaoTzu, ChuangTzu and LiehTzu) are said to have been partially based on the IChing - the Book of Changes. That is what is so beautiful about classical Taoism as a religion imho, it is not really about absolutes; it is all about change, even Tao changes.

Edited October 7, 2012 by silas

[GrandmasterP]

Just the punchline..........

"Yes of course. You are right".

;-)

[exorcist_1699]

....... Classical Taoism does not speak of the Tao Meta-Mind, but does speak of nuturing one's inborn nature, strengthening one's Te and flowing with Tao currents to attain destiny. Attaining destiny is important b/c the Tao itself is evolving, and the shape and state of things are part of that evolution. Tao in classical Taoism is spontaneous and does not think or deliberate. Within this framework, a classical Taoist sees all other religions as neighbors, as formations within Tao, different forms and paths but all part of the whole, part of the evolution of Tao.

 

 

Classical Taoism does talk about the Meta-Mind , for example , in Laotze :

 

( Chapter 6 )

 

谷神不死，是谓玄牝。玄牝之门，是谓天地根

 

" The emptied Mind /Spirit never dies, its immortality tells you how the Universe starts ; as the gateway to this Universe, it also shows you how this universe is found"

 

 

And , it further talks about the strange, supernatural power of this Mind :

 

 

 

(Chapeter 47 )

 

 

不出户，知天下；不窥牖，见天道。其出弥远，其知弥少。是以圣人不行而知，不见而明，不为而成。

 

 

"Without going outdoors , the Saint knows the society ; without taking a peep out the window , he know the secret of this Universe . The farther we go ,the less we know. So, the Saint knows without traveling, understands without seeing , accomplishes without doing."

 

* All are my translations .

Edited October 7, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

......

........

 

The concept of transformation emphasized in daoism does not refer to the mind, but to the body.

 

Just want to point out : Dual cultivation of the mind and the physical body , transforming them into some kind of everlasting things , i.e. " 性命雙修 ", is one of the basic principles of Taoism .

[silas]

exorcist1699, I follow mostly academic translations of these passages. Here are the same TTC chapters as translated by DC Lau:

 

 

TTC ch. 6.

 

The spirit of the valley never dies.

This is called the mysterious female.

The gateway of the mysterious female

Is called the root of heaven and earth.

Dimly visible, it seems as if it were there,

Yet use will never drain it.

 

The gateway of the mysterious female referred to above is a metaphor for the point of genesis within the interaction of the yin-yang fields. The gate is the source of a energy flow that drives the universe. See Taoist Creation Theory and Tao The Living Machine (yin-yang operates like a bellows). I do not necessarily see the concept requires a meta-mind.

 

TTC ch. 47:

 

Without stirring abroad

One can know the whole world;

Without looking out the window

One can see the way of heaven.

The further one goes

The less one knows.

Therefore the sage knows without having to stir,

Identifies without having to see,

Accomplishes without having to act.

 

This passage is about the abilities of a Taoist sage (not necessarily a saint). To be able to see beyond a locality derives from a connection to Tao currents, to sense it patterns from an expansive vantage point. Again, it does not necessarily mean the requirement of meta-mind. TTC ch. 47 figures into an analysis of divination in classical Taoism:

The Tao, Destiny, Karma and Divination.

 

In the post on

Tao as a living machine is an analysis of a Tao thought process.

Edited October 7, 2012 by silas

[doc benway]

In my opinion, the Taoist who criticizes Zen hasn't yet had much insight into either ...

Edited October 8, 2012 by steve

[shanlung]

In my opinion, the Taoist who criticizes Zen hasn't yet had much insight into either ...

 

I felt the same way.

Not many people know Taoism, but lots of folks know of Zen Buddhism.

Not that they know Zen Buddhism well either, but they know that better than Taoism.

 

I tried to explain Taoism to those folks and I told them Taoism is the Zen in Zen Buddhism

 

Luckily for me they did not ask me what is Zen Buddhism or Zen for that matter.

 

And if they did, I have to confess up and tell them I have no words to describe either and they should find more articulate answers by googling for that.

 

Not that I think articulate answers are the answers.

 

The Idiotic Taoist

[doc benway]

 

Taoism is the Zen in Zen Buddhism

 

 

Nice, do I have your permission to borrow that sometime?

[eye_of_the_storm]

Interesting stuff Exorcists_1699 thanks

[exorcist_1699]

exorcist1699, I follow mostly academic translations of these passages. Here are the same TTC chapters as translated by DC Lau:

 

 

TTC ch. 6.

 

The spirit of the valley never dies.

This is called the mysterious female.

The gateway of the mysterious female

Is called the root of heaven and earth.

...........................

 

 

 

Any literal translation of Taoist writings is doomed to be misleading . Unfortuantely , most translators who try to do the job are language professors or teachers ,who hardly get any practice in Taoism. For example, in the quoted translation , the character "谷", its literal meaning is " valley" , a concave , hidden and emptied space; by linking it to the character "神" (" spirit") , you get a funny translation of "The spirit of the valley never dies " for the Chinese phase"谷神不死"; A seemingly sensible Animistic interpretation , yet far from grasping the real meaning behind it.

 

I have to say , the term "谷神" here refers to a hidden emptied big mind , a Meta-Mind, not to the spirit of a valley ; because soon after the mentioned phase, it immediately shifts to talk about a place called "玄牝" ( an invisible gateway ) at which a door can be opened for accessing the "roots" of this universe ("天地根"). Clearly, the spirit of a valley is too small for helping us understand the big Universe, nor can the spirit of a mountain or a river do.

 

Stranglely it is the spirit of we humans that does .

 

 

In Buddhism , there is a similar saying :

 

"空不空, 如來藏" (" Emptiness is not really empty, for what hidden inside is a Budda " ), which tells us that an awakened Mind is , in fact, the precondition for opening a door in emptiness, leading us to another more realistic world.

 

This is why I repeatedly say that a yin-mind , no matter how delicate a thought experiment it can design , no matter how many spatial dimensions it can manipulate by its mathematical ability , hardly can it be used in our cultivation , let alone others of its spiritual efforts: singing some spells , visualization, praying..etc .

Edited October 8, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[Cheshire Cat]

Just want to point out : Dual cultivation of the mind and the physical body , transforming them into some kind of everlasting things , i.e. " 性命雙修 ", is one of the basic principles of Taoism .

 

The mind is to be emptied, not transformed.

You have to give up your consciousness to attain the Dao...

The body is transformed during the process (jing-Qi-Shen-Void-Tao)

[Reed]

This is a very interesting thread and something I've been wondering about for quite a while although I'm struggling to follow a lot of it

 

I tried to explain Taoism to those folks and I told them Taoism is the Zen in Zen Buddhism

 

Earlier this year I was looking for, or interested in pursuing, 'pure Zen' as supposed to Zen Buddhism, and I was recommended Suzuki's Zen mind, Beginner's mind by a lot of people. I ended up reading it several times (although I wouldn't pretend to fully understand it) and greatly enjoyed it: I like his style. It's also part of the reason I've started looking at Taoism again in a much deeper way.

 

For people who are familiar with Suzuki and Taoism, anyone care to mention (or point to a relevant post in this thread) any differences -- in a simple way, preferably?

[silas]

>>Any literal translation of Taoist writings is doomed to be misleading . Unfortuantely , most translators who try to do the job are language professors or teachers ,who hardly get any practice in Taoism.

 

I value the academic translations of the classic texts because they aspire to recover the original meanings or at least period-relevant meanings. The TTC in particular was meant to be a guide for rulers, kings and emperors, when such guidance could mean life or death for the sovereign and the dissolution of nations. For the classical texts, translators with strong allegiance to any of the religious Taoist sects could distort the original concepts, and I am sorry to say that there are few practitioners today of what would be called the religious form of Lao-Chuang Taoism which has been distilled down to a philosophy only. The phenomenal popularity of Lao-Chuang Taoism to this day as a philosophical system warrants a recovery of the religious form of it. Many aspects of the philosophy make no sense without the religious or mystical elements, which survive in bits and pieces of the extant texts.

 

BTW, the phrase "spirit of the valley" has been used in many translations, including the perennial english-language favorite TTC by Gia Fu Feng/Jane English. In general, I find non-academic translations to be lovely poetry, but too ambiguous or too influenced by modern religious practice to be of value for recovering a classical Taoism religion. I have read, here and there, criticism that classical Taoism is obsolete and many of the teachings not applicable to the concerns of the world today, but scholars are discovering that confusion and misinterpretation of the classical texts have obscured or obliterated the great and important lessons of the ancients (see, e.g., Hans Georg Moeller's introduction to The Philosophy Of The TaoTeChing). For example, old China consisted of patriarchies and prized boys over girls, but while the classical texts do evince a little this gender bias, their lessons apply to both sexes without reservation for the most part (there is no devaluing of women, I mean).

[Aetherous]

The mind is to be emptied, not transformed.

You have to give up your consciousness to attain the Dao...

The body is transformed during the process (jing-Qi-Shen-Void-Tao)

 

I'm not sure we can say for all of Taoism that the mind must NOT be transformed, only emptied. Studying the TTC for instance can be transformative.

 

To take notes from Buddhism...they have relative and absolute bodhicitta...relative is like transformation into a more compassionate mind, and absolute is more like emptying, since it has to do with realization.

 

Also...is there such a separation between mind and body? When the body transforms, the mind is transformed as a byproduct...and vice versa. Taoists might benefit from taking both a transformative (cultivation) approach in addition to the emptying approach.

[Birch]

"Emptied, not transformed".

Can you give an example? I have an idea but want to find out what people who sound like they know what they're talking about say.

[shanlung]

Steve,

 

I think we share much the same view of life and things. Feel free to use what ever I say if that reflect the feeling that is in you.

 

I agree with exorcist. Far too much emphasis have been given to translators who might be language professors with no understanding of Taoism, or even with ax to grind against Taoism. Especially so in the very early translation done largely by missionaries out to propogate their own faith.

 

They thought then Taoism to be garbage and translated it as well meaning garbage at best.

 

Thereby giving us "spirit of the valley" which seemed to be jumped upon by so many others, especially the scientific scholars , that it became cast in stone.

 

Scholars are good and known more for mistaking the finger pointing to the moon as the moon itself

http://www.shanlung....lingrevisit.htm

 

The emptying of the mind is not the brainlessness voiding of all thoughts. Just like the relaxing of the body in taiji does not mean that your body become a jelly with no backbone and on the verge of collapsing/imploding .

 

Or like what I have said in Wuwei, that it is the beginning of everything, and not a listlessness avoidance of thoughts/actions

http://www.shanlung.com/oldwuwei.html

 

Idiot on the Path of Lao Chuang

 

aka

 

Shanlung

山 龍

Mountain Dragon

 

http://shanlung.com/

[Cheshire Cat]

"Emptied, not transformed".

Can you give an example?

 

Sure.

 

Look at this video.

 

The flock is the mind, the empty sky is the Dao.

 

You can change the shape as much as you want (developing compassion, transforming emotions and so forth), but the only way to have pure clear sky is to kill every single bird.

Edited October 9, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[Cheshire Cat]

I'm not sure we can say for all of Taoism that the mind must NOT be transformed, only emptied. Studying the TTC for instance can be transformative.

 

Yes, you are right.

I speak from a certain point of view which is not commonly shared.

[Birch]

"Emptied, not transformed".

Can you give an example?

 

Sure.

 

Look at this video.

 

The flock is the mind, the empty sky is the Dao.

 

You can change the shape as much as you want (developing compassion, transforming emotions and so forth), but the only way to have pure clear sky is to kill every single bird.

 

Thanks for that. It seems very buddhist to me. I was under the impression that Dao was, well, not that:-)

[Cheshire Cat]

Thanks for that. It seems very buddhist to me. I was under the impression that Dao was, well, not that:-)

 

Sorry, I'm ignorant and I can't see differences between the two.

 

Let me quote Lao-Tzu, chapter 48

 

In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired.

In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.

 

http://earlywomenmas.../tao/ch_48.html

Edited October 9, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[adept]

For people who are familiar with Suzuki and Taoism, anyone care to mention (or point to a relevant post in this thread) any differences -- in a simple way, preferably?

 

Well, I'll give it a try.

Shunryu Suzuki was a monk/priest in the Soto Zen tradition. Soto Zen emphasizes shikantaza zazen, or just sitting over the studying of sutras and other practices. In my humble opinion, shikantaza is quintessential wu-wei. Non-doing. Just letting everything take it's natural course without any interference, or judgement, or bias. Letting go of everything. The Dao, pure and simple.

It is however, much harder than it sounds and takes a hell of a lot of practice before the monkey-mind slows down, if at all.

I've tried it a few times before and become frustrated and stopped practicing. My utmost respect to anyone who sits zazen regularly over countless years. It is extremely difficult.

No goal, no practice, no samsara and no nirvana.

Edited October 9, 2012 by adept