The diaphragm in reverse breathing

[ricemaster]

My first taobums post

 

I'm practicing Embryonic Breathing according to the instructions given in Yang Jwing-Ming's "Qigong Meditation: Embryonic Breathing".

 

I am confused about the movement of the diaphragm in reverse breathing/embryonic breathing.

 

When breathing in, as the lower belly and lower back move towards each other and the the perineum goes up, should the diaphragm go up, down, or not move at all ?

 

When breathing out, as the lower belly and lower back release (move away from each other) and the perineum releases down, should the diaphragm go up, down, or not move at all ?

 

Any info is very welcomed (ideally with references to the source)

 

Thanks !

 

Ricemaster

[Protector]

Long ago as a kid before having any sort of biology class or lesson, I never knew I even had a diaphragm

[konchog uma]

hi ricemaster,

 

i believe the diaphram is moving downward, drawing in breath, and you are compressings qi at the dantian by moving in towards it from all sides.

[Chang]

Hi Ricemaster,

 

You need not concern yourself with the movement of the diaphragm. It will be dictated by your breathing.

 

As Anamatva stated on the inbreathe the diaphragm will expand downwards stimulating the Dantien. As you exhale it will relax back.

 

You may find this article of interest:-

 

Daoist Breathing Techniques

Edited February 15, 2012 by Chang

[joeblast]

I love Dr Yang's EB book. Excellent resource! Every so often I am reminded to go retrieve my copy

 

This particular question of movements is why it is very important to master the integration of the psoas in natural abdominal breathing (first.) When you've established that deep psoas connection I daresay it pretty much rolls nicely right over into reverse breathing because of the psoas integration. For either breath, descending the junction of the psoas & diaphragm as the motions begin. "When the breath gets very deep" "it disappears externally" anyway - that whole notion is rooted in the psoas, the more profound usage of the structure is what makes the breath very deep. The diaphragm relaxes on exhale for either breath as well.

[ChiDragon]

My first taobums post

 

I'm practicing Embryonic Breathing according to the instructions given in Yang Jwing-Ming's "Qigong Meditation: Embryonic Breathing".

 

I am confused about the movement of the diaphragm in reverse breathing/embryonic breathing.

 

1. When breathing in, as the lower belly and lower back move towards each other and the the perineum goes up, should the diaphragm go up, down, or not move at all ?

 

2. When breathing out, as the lower belly and lower back release (move away from each other) and the perineum releases down, should the diaphragm go up, down, or not move at all ?

Ricemaster

 

FYI....

1. Reverse breathing during inhalation, the diaphragm goes up.

 

2. Reverse breathing during exhalation, the diaphragm goes down.

 

 

Note: The diaphragm moves spontaneously, accordingly, with the movements of the abdomen.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

How would people describe the difference between reverse breathing and the "3 locks" type breathing described by Daniel Reid? With the 3 locks, you inhale fully, clench the a-nooos and uro-gential diaphragm, push the abdominals back in using ab-muscles, then relax everything with the exhale. This creates sort of a belly roll effect. The third lock is holding the chin down to avoid too much oxygen being pushed into the head. The effect of this is mainly to massage the organs. I find it also can draw heat up up and away from yer nether regions.

 

I guess the first difference is that the reverse breathing is less forced..?

Edited February 15, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[joeblast]

FYI....

1. Reverse breathing during inhalation, the diaphragm goes up.

 

2. Reverse breathing during exhalation, the diaphragm goes down.

 

 

Note: The diaphragm moves spontaneously, accordingly, with the movements of the abdomen.

1 & 2, in my experience, only happen in such a manner if the motions are completely contrived with no underlying experiential knowledge/understanding of the mechanisms thereof. If the diaphragm moves up on inhale, where is the compression? Plainspeak here would sound insulting.

[joeblast]

How would people describe the difference between reverse breathing and the "3 locks" type breathing described by Daniel Reid? With the 3 locks, you inhale fully, clench the a-nooos and uro-gential diaphragm, push the abdominals back in using ab-muscles, then relax everything with the exhale. This creates sort of a belly roll effect. The third lock is holding the chin down to avoid too much oxygen being pushed into the head. The effect of this is mainly to massage the organs. I find it also can draw heat up up and away from yer nether regions.

 

I guess the first difference is that the reverse breathing is less forced..?

Rooting the breath at the psoas-diaphragm connection naturally produces a similar rolling effect - the motion beginning from the bottom and the wavemotion propagates upward and forward along the diaphragm, with the relax-exhale necessarily being a tad bit steeper section of ellipse than the inhale.

[ChiDragon]

Daniel Reid mentioned the three locks in his book:

1. The Anal Lock

2. The Abdominal Lock

3. The Neck Lock

 

The third lock is holding the chin down to avoid too much oxygen being pushed into the head.

 

I did not see anything similar to the above quote in his book(1998).

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Rooting the breath at the psoas-diaphragm connection naturally produces a similar rolling effect - the motion beginning from the bottom and the wavemotion propagates upward and forward along the diaphragm, with the relax-exhale necessarily being a tad bit steeper section of ellipse than the inhale.

 

Okay, that makes some sense if I understand correctly.. Basically, the psoas diaphragm naturally lifts from the deep inhale. Seems the main difference then would be the intentional clenching, though that can require less force when using the natural lift created by the low and deep inhale. I can see how the belly naturally sinks back before the exhale when doing it this way too. That helps. Thanks!

[ChiDragon]

1 & 2, in my experience, only happen in such a manner if the motions are completely contrived with no underlying experiential knowledge/understanding of the mechanisms thereof. If the diaphragm moves up on inhale, where is the compression? Plainspeak here would sound insulting.

 

Those are the actual physical movements of the diaphragm, not by someone's experience. When the abdomen was indented, the diaphragm moves upward, the compression will take place against the lungs.

 

 

PS....

Where is the insulting coming from. I don't understand....

[joeblast]

Okay, that makes some sense if I understand correctly.. Basically, the psoas diaphragm naturally lifts from the deep inhale. Seems the main difference then would be the intentional clenching, though that can require less force when using the natural lift created by the low and deep inhale. I can see how the belly naturally sinks back before the exhale when doing it this way too. That helps. Thanks!

The psoas-diaphragm connection descends on inhale in both methods of breath; it is the other structures that are different. The "general motion" of the diaphragm is roughly similar between natural & reverse breathing.

 

Those are the actual physical movements of the diaphragm, not by someone's experience. When the abdomen was indented, the diaphragm moves upward, the compression will take place against the lungs.

 

 

PS....

Where is the insulting coming from. I don't understand....

I would puke if I tried breathing like that, CD. I dont know where you are getting that from, but imho, it is absolutely erroneous. And I am going by the physical motions of my diaphragm, not somebody's theoretical understanding of how they think it should be. If you are raising your diaphragm on inhale, "ur doin it wrong." The dantien compresses, not the lungs.

[ChiDragon]

The psoas-diaphragm connection descends on inhale in both methods of breath; it is the other structures that are different. The "general motion" of the diaphragm is roughly similar between natural & reverse breathing.

 

 

I would puke if I tried breathing like that, CD. I dont know where you are getting that from, but imho, it is absolutely erroneous. And I am going by the physical motions of my diaphragm, not somebody's theoretical understanding of how they think it should be. If you are raising your diaphragm on inhale, "ur doin it wrong." The dantien compresses, not the lungs.

If you are using the Taoist mythical explanations, it is OK but I will rest my case for now.....

Edited February 15, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The psoas-diaphragm connection descends on inhale in both methods of breath; it is the other structures that are different. The "general motion" of the diaphragm is roughly similar between natural & reverse breathing.

 

 

okay, right, I was mixing up my anatomy.. I meant to say the uro-genital diaphragm lifts with low and deep inhales, rather than psoas which to me is normally just "the diaphragm."

[zerostao]

I love Dr Yang's EB book. Excellent resource! Every so often I am reminded to go retrieve my copy

 

This particular question of movements is why it is very important to master the integration of the psoas in natural abdominal breathing (first.) When you've established that deep psoas connection I daresay it pretty much rolls nicely right over into reverse breathing because of the psoas integration. For either breath, descending the junction of the psoas & diaphragm as the motions begin. "When the breath gets very deep" "it disappears externally" anyway - that whole notion is rooted in the psoas, the more profound usage of the structure is what makes the breath very deep. The diaphragm relaxes on exhale for either breath as well.

 

 

that is one book that you can hardly ever find available on used book sites and if you do it is priced about the same as the new ones.

any dvd review?

there is a kindle edition!

Edited February 15, 2012 by zerostao

[joeblast]

If you are using the Taoist mythical explanations, it is OK but I will rest my case for now.....

No, please elaborate - if you can back up what you're saying I'm curious of your rationale. From my point of view here, what you are saying is a misconception derived from not having made the deep psoas connection and logically following, not understanding the foundations of reverse breathing - and the contrived manner that results appears to be but a recipe for stagnating the epigastrum. (ugh, and a headache)

Edited February 15, 2012 by joeblast

[ChiDragon]

No, please elaborate - if you can back up what you're saying I'm curious of your rationale. From my point of view here, what you are saying is a misconception derived from not having made the deep psoas connection and logically following, not understanding the foundations of reverse breathing - and the contrived manner that results appears to be but a recipe for stagnating the epigastrum.

Normal abdominal breathing

 

Abdominal movement of breathing while laying down

 

 

In reverse breathing, the inhalation and exhalation are opposite with respect to the position of the diaphragm.

Edited February 15, 2012 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

That's not elaborating at all, CD. Merely stating that one is the opposite of the other shows some very basic fundamental misunderstandings. I'm not necessarily saying you have some fundamental misunderstandings, but unless you can back up what you're saying, one can only conclude you do not have the depth of understanding from which to elaborate deeply upon.

 

 

Everything you're posting up has to do with natural ab breath - you do realize we're discussing reverse, yes?

Edited February 15, 2012 by joeblast

[ChiDragon]

 

Everything you're posting up has to do with natural ab breath - you do realize we're discussing reverse, yes?

Please read my last statement of the above post.

[ChiDragon]

The psoas-diaphragm connection descends on inhale in both methods of breath; it is the other structures that are different. The "general motion" of the diaphragm is roughly similar between natural & reverse breathing.

 

 

I would puke if I tried breathing like that, CD. I dont know where you are getting that from, but imho, it is absolutely erroneous. And I am going by the physical motions of my diaphragm, not somebody's theoretical understanding of how they think it should be. If you are raising your diaphragm on inhale, "ur doin it wrong." The dantien compresses, not the lungs.

 

What do you mean by "The dantien compresses, not the lungs".....??? The dantien compresses what.....??? I have never said that the lungs compress anything.

 

What I had said was that when the abdomen contracts, then the diaphragm moves upward and compresses the lungs for helping to release the carbon dioxide.

 

To my understanding, the diaphragm cannot be raised directly on demand. It can only be raised indirectly by the contraction of the abdomen; it can be lowered indirectly by the expansion of the abdomen. I believe these are the facts about the physical movements of both the abdomen and the lungs during breathing. If one chooses, the breathing process may be reversed. I don't see any complication or misunderstanding about that.

[ricemaster]

Hi all,

 

hank you for all the answers !

there seems to be no consensus

 

In normal breathing the diaphragm goes down (contracts and flattens) on inhale and goes up (release and domes) on exhale. See

 

If this movement stays the same in revers/embryonic breathing (my guess) then on the inhale we will have the lower dan tien compressed from all directions which makes sense to me as the compression should produce more Chi which is the purpose of reverse/embryonic breathing.

It does mean though that the diaphragm movement is not reversed.

 

What I am really looking for is a more authoritative answer on this from a chigong master or somebody who learned from one or from a lineage, either written/book or a testimony to having heard so/taught so.

 

Any help ?

 

Thanks

 

PS thanks for the interesting references to the psoas

[idiot_stimpy]

.

Edited February 16, 2012 by jconnar

[dawei]

I agree with CD's explanation that the Diaphragm moves upward with reverse breathing... The opposing point is not an argument of mystical explanations, so let's stop such nonsense to duck out of a discussion.

 

Normal Abdominal Breathing (NAB):

- Inhale --> Stomach expands

- Dan Tian expands (acquires Qi)

- Diaphragm expands --> downward

- Lungs follow diaphragm and will expand as a last step if directed

 

Reverse Abdominal Breathing (RAB):

- Inhale --> Stomach contracts

- Dan Tian contracts (sends forth Qi)

- Diaphragm contracts --> upward

- Lungs follow diaphragm and will tend to be voided of air

[dawei]

What do you mean by "The dantien compresses, not the lungs".....??? The dantien compresses what.....??? I have never said that the lungs compress anything.

 

What I had said was that when the abdomen contracts, then the diaphragm moves upward and compresses the lungs for helping to release the carbon dioxide.

 

To my understanding, the diaphragm cannot be raised directly on demand. It can only be raised indirectly by the contraction of the abdomen; it can be lowered indirectly by the expansion of the abdomen. I believe these are the facts about the physical movements of both the abdomen and the lungs during breathing. If one chooses, the breathing process may be reversed. I don't see any complication or misunderstanding about that.

 

You need to drop an 'understanding' alone of "the physical movement" fetish to realize that 'practices' can effect any movement they want. You will have to practice that yourself to speak to it and against it; reading from books is not sufficient explanation.

 

The diaphragm can be raised directly on demand; that is, in a word: Qigong. Your exposure or practice may not include such concepts.