The diaphragm in reverse breathing

[ricemaster]

Hi dawei,

 

Thanks for writing. Two points:

 

1. You write

 

"Normal Abdominal Breathing (NAB):

- Inhale --> ...

- Diaphragm expands --> downward

"

 

Just to be precise the downward movement of the diaphragm in Normal breathing is a contraction (flattening) not an expansion. (see the youtube I posted above)

 

2. Do you know of any confirmation for your opinion from a book/teacher etc ? (especially as my guess is the opposite, see my post before)

 

Thanks

[ChiDragon]

You need to drop an 'understanding' alone of "the physical movement" fetish to realize that 'practices' can effect any movement they want. You will have to practice that yourself to speak to it and against it; reading from books is not sufficient explanation.

 

The diaphragm can be raised directly on demand; that is, in a word: Qigong. Your exposure or practice may not include such concepts.

 

I am sorry that I gave you the impression that I don't do any of those practices...

Edited February 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

What do you mean by "The dantien compresses, not the lungs".....??? The dantien compresses what.....??? I have never said that the lungs compress anything.

 

What I had said was that when the abdomen contracts, then the diaphragm moves upward and compresses the lungs for helping to release the carbon dioxide.

 

To my understanding, the diaphragm cannot be raised directly on demand. It can only be raised indirectly by the contraction of the abdomen; it can be lowered indirectly by the expansion of the abdomen. I believe these are the facts about the physical movements of both the abdomen and the lungs during breathing. If one chooses, the breathing process may be reversed. I don't see any complication or misunderstanding about that.

I mean exactly that - where is the "center of the compression?" If the diaphragm moves upward during the inhale you are losing the compression about the dantien and you are but doing respiratory gymnastics. You may not think that the diaphragm "can be directly accessed" but once again you're betraying your lack of foundation - it is a tendon and responds no different than any other tendon or muscle, it is just partially obscured by virtue of its position.

 

Where I see your "complication" is you assuming "reverse" means simply a "mirror image" which it is not. Pls ref my reply to dawei wrt what compresses.

 

Hi all,

 

hank you for all the answers !

there seems to be no consensus

 

In normal breathing the diaphragm goes down (contracts and flattens) on inhale and goes up (release and domes) on exhale. See

 

If this movement stays the same in revers/embryonic breathing (my guess) then on the inhale we will have the lower dan tien compressed from all directions which makes sense to me as the compression should produce more Chi which is the purpose of reverse/embryonic breathing.

It does mean though that the diaphragm movement is not reversed.

 

What I am really looking for is a more authoritative answer on this from a chigong master or somebody who learned from one or from a lineage, either written/book or a testimony to having heard so/taught so.

 

Any help ?

 

Thanks

 

PS thanks for the interesting references to the psoas

You get it ricemasta And yes, my teachers have said the same with regard to the diaphragm - Max, Dr Yang says it in his EB, SC, Root books amongst others, Lin also taught that way...honestly this thread is the first I have ever heard anyone seriously attempt to assert that lifting the diaphragm on inhale is the correct way - I mean if so, where's the expansion coming from for the lungs to fill? If the diaphragm does not descend, are you but taking as much as into the chest as possible? The physics just do not add up.

 

I agree with CD's explanation that the Diaphragm moves upward with reverse breathing... The opposing point is not an argument of mystical explanations, so let's stop such nonsense to duck out of a discussion.

 

Normal Abdominal Breathing (NAB):

- Inhale --> Stomach expands

- Dan Tian expands (acquires Qi)

- Diaphragm expands --> downward

- Lungs follow diaphragm and will expand as a last step if directed

 

Reverse Abdominal Breathing (RAB):

- Inhale --> Stomach contracts

- Dan Tian contracts (sends forth Qi)

- Diaphragm contracts --> upward

- Lungs follow diaphragm and will tend to be voided of air

The dantien is being contracted upon, it has no means by which to "contract" in and of itself. There is compression from all sides - if the diaphragm is being picked up on the inhale then you are simply undermining any compression about the dantien. Use a balloon as an example - squeeze it on 3 sides (and lift the 4th?) what happens? The 4th side lifts automatically because there is no opposing force.

 

That's why I stressed the psoas. If you dont know what to do with your psoas muscle then it is damn near impossible to do this correctly. What's being mentioned here is something I went past in my travels and discarded as ineffective when I was learning it and had minor confusions before they were cleared up - and importantly, before I had really even done a lot of reverse breathing, nevermind the imperative psoas connections I made after those earlier stages. We're not being offered any rationale behind why things would work in this manner. If there is something concrete about breathing in this manner, I'd love to hear it - not simply an opinion of why it might be so. /\

 

 

 

nei shi gongfu, brothers

Edited February 16, 2012 by joeblast

[ChiDragon]

Joeblast....

 

I see you are throwing out the term "dantien" very loosely.

 

Look, the OP only ask a simple question. Why do you want to confuse the hell out of him....???

Edited February 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[joeblast]

Hey joeblast, always good to hear your insight on breathing.

 

You have been engaging in EB for years, yes? Are you at the point where the outer layer of your body (layers of skin, to be specific) make no movement at all? So that the breath is contracting/expanding solely within the body? (trunk, perhaps arms/legs & head too) I ask because I have very, very limited movement when looking from the outside. But my ldt expands and contracts enormously within. For example, my focus has been on my ldt all morning, and now I feel the breath moving into and enlivining my armpits. But when I put my hand on my belly, it is not moving up and down.

thanks you

 

indeed...it is the proper psoas movement combined with proper perineum movement that allows for the breath to "externally disappear" and the energetic efficiency revealing the vast expansiveness of the energy center. I began studying EB in about...2004? I am glad you are making excellent progress

 

Joeblast....

 

I see you are throwing out the term "dantien" very loosely.

 

Look, the OP only ask a simple question. Why do you want to confuse the hell out of him....???

Yes, he did ask a simple question. And I answered so as to dispel discrepancies - but I really only asked you to elaborate based on your "mystical references" which as the thread has evolved seem to be nothing more than "mystical misunderstandings" from which you cannot sufficiently back up your assertions. You look at a lot more old text than I do and I was honestly curious, but since you do not seem to be able to sufficiently back those assertions up, I can only conclude that you misunderstand some terms - if I recall correctly, english is not your first language?

 

My usage of the lower dantien terminology in this thread has been quite consistent, I'm not sure if you are missing something from my words, but...simply put you're either not conveying your message properly or you do not understand fully what you are talking about. I'm not going to keep asking you to back up your words, you can either do it or people reading this can be left with the impression that you dont quite grasp the core fundamental concepts of reverse abdominal breathing - and I will leave it at that. /\

[ChiDragon]

The problem with English which is everything has to be stated precisely. Otherwise, people will jump allover you. There is no more needed to be said, is there......???.....

[joeblast]

The problem with English which is everything has to be stated precisely. Otherwise, people will jump allover you. There is no more needed to be said, is there......???.....

one may be precise without necessarily being accurate if all of my shots fired are low and to the right, consistently, that displays precision but not accuracy. if my shots are all about the center, that is accurate but not necessarily very precise. if my shots all go through one hole in the X ring, then that is both accurate and precise.

 

you can be consistent and still have precision, but if you have a fundamental misunderstading, (e.g. your sights are sending all of your shots low and to the right) then you will have a tough time with accuracy because you will be guessing.

 

---

thanks for the graphic rv!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Daniel Reid mentioned the three locks in his book:

1. The Anal Lock

2. The Abdominal Lock

3. The Neck Lock

 

The third lock is holding the chin down to avoid too much oxygen being pushed into the head.

 

I did not see anything similar to the above quote in his book(1998).

 

I missed this post..

 

true, I did misquote it... The intention is to keep too much blood from going to the brain, with a number of other benefits.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[dawei]

Hi dawei,

 

Thanks for writing. Two points:

 

1. You write

 

"Normal Abdominal Breathing (NAB):

- Inhale --> ...

- Diaphragm expands --> downward

"

 

Just to be precise the downward movement of the diaphragm in Normal breathing is a contraction (flattening) not an expansion. (see the youtube I posted above)

 

2. Do you know of any confirmation for your opinion from a book/teacher etc ? (especially as my guess is the opposite, see my post before)

 

Thanks

1. I think it depends on which youtube one looks at for deciding on terminology. It may appear as a contraction, expansion, flattening... what matters is that one knows the movement.... DOWNWARD. Put your fingers into the area and breath... and at about the time of exhale you will (should) feel it drop downward... if not, it is too tight to move in the normal movement of breath. This is for Belly breathing.

2. Let your fingers confirm it... and your body sensitivity of the diaphragm... after talking to my qigong teacher today, I am not changing my position.

 

But I will say that in my practice, INTENTION is a hugh part... That is because he comes from a incredibly strict martial discipline of martial arts and fighting [using Qi to disable an opponent and attack organ functions]. He later used that background as part of his Medical Qigong understanding and this is probably more unique. Most folks stay within their discipline but to expand one's experience is worthwhile to consider. I cannot say if that is a part of another's practice and experience. So for that reason, what you truly experience can be different than mine.

[ricemaster]

Hi dawei

 

I am not sure I understand you.

 

My intention was to discuss reverse breathing but it's important to clear misunderstandings regarding normal breathing.

 

The mechanics of normal breathing are not a matter for speculation/intuition/belief or argument. Please check wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath) or gray's anatomy or any physiology book.

 

Normal breathing mechanics is as follows:

 

Inhale:

1. The diaphragm contracts = flattens = goes down

2. At the same time the rib cage expands (and to some degree the chest)

3. As a result the thoracic cavity increases in volume

4. The lungs expand into this bigger space

5. As a result the air pressure in the lungs drops below the air pressure outside the body

6. The air pressure difference causes air to flow into the lungs.

 

Exhale:

1. The diaphragm releases = domes up = goes up

2. At the same time the rib cage & chest releases

3. As a result the thoracic cavity decreases in volume

4. The lungs compress

5. Air pressure in the lungs rises

6. Air flows out of the lungs

 

So in normal breathing the diaphragm contracts flattens and descends on the inhale and releases domes up and goes up on the exhale. If you find that yours behave differently (in normal breathing) then either there is a problem with your breathing or you are confused about the location of the diaphragm.

 

I respect the fact that your teacher suggests the diaphragm moves up on the inhale in reverse breathing. That means there are still conflicting views about that. I would love to find a written reference. I searched Dr Yang's 'Embryonic Breathing' in vain.

 

Thanks

Ricemaster

[dawei]

Hi dawei

 

I am not sure I understand you.

 

My intention was to discuss reverse breathing but it's important to clear misunderstandings regarding normal breathing.

 

The mechanics of normal breathing are not a matter for speculation/intuition/belief or argument. Please check wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breath) or gray's anatomy or any physiology book.

 

Normal breathing mechanics is as follows:

 

Inhale:

1. The diaphragm contracts = flattens = goes down

2. At the same time the rib cage expands (and to some degree the chest)

3. As a result the thoracic cavity increases in volume

4. The lungs expand into this bigger space

5. As a result the air pressure in the lungs drops below the air pressure outside the body

6. The air pressure difference causes air to flow into the lungs.

 

Exhale:

1. The diaphragm releases = domes up = goes up

2. At the same time the rib cage & chest releases

3. As a result the thoracic cavity decreases in volume

4. The lungs compress

5. Air pressure in the lungs rises

6. Air flows out of the lungs

 

So in normal breathing the diaphragm contracts flattens and descends on the inhale and releases domes up and goes up on the exhale. If you find that yours behave differently (in normal breathing) then either there is a problem with your breathing or you are confused about the location of the diaphragm.

 

I respect the fact that your teacher suggests the diaphragm moves up on the inhale in reverse breathing. That means there are still conflicting views about that. I would love to find a written reference. I searched Dr Yang's 'Embryonic Breathing' in vain.

 

Thanks

Ricemaster

We agree on nornal breathing as you state above. Not sure where I suggested I would differ from that view but it doesn't matter as long as we agree, regardless of a word or two used to describe it.

 

I would say that in reverse breathing, I find lots of compression going on inside the dan tian and through the middle section; all putting a slight 'upward' pressure. I think the diaphragm is acting somewhat neutral, like the lungs in such a condition but I don't sense the diaphragm is moving downward as part of it. But my intention is an 'upward' pressure so I have to account for that while someone else might not be involving that.

[ChiDragon]

The different between normal and reverse breathing

 

The Chinese have the definition of both methods of breathing are well defined. Even though the site does not allow one to copy and pasted, I still can translate it since it is not too long.

[joeblast]

I'm fairly certain this is just an issue of turning the jem and one cut glints slightly differently than another

 

1. I think it depends on which youtube one looks at for deciding on terminology. It may appear as a contraction, expansion, flattening... what matters is that one knows the movement.... DOWNWARD. Put your fingers into the area and breath... and at about the time of exhale you will (should) feel it drop downward... if not, it is too tight to move in the normal movement of breath. This is for Belly breathing.

2. Let your fingers confirm it... and your body sensitivity of the diaphragm... after talking to my qigong teacher today, I am not changing my position.

 

But I will say that in my practice, INTENTION is a hugh part... That is because he comes from a incredibly strict martial discipline of martial arts and fighting [using Qi to disable an opponent and attack organ functions]. He later used that background as part of his Medical Qigong understanding and this is probably more unique. Most folks stay within their discipline but to expand one's experience is worthwhile to consider. I cannot say if that is a part of another's practice and experience. So for that reason, what you truly experience can be different than mine.

In some some sense the descending bit reminds me of a Shepard Tone - harmonics arranged so as to give the impression of a continual descent (or ascent as the case may be with other examples of the notion.) The diaphragm descends on the inhale, the abdomen descends on the exhale, are two portions both natural and reverse have in common.

 

Let's remove natural ab breathing from this discussion so as to prevent further misunderstandings, I say. If I must refer to natural again in this thread I'll put 'em in brackets or something to make the notation as explicit as possible

 

I would say that in reverse breathing, I find lots of compression going on inside the dan tian and through the middle section; all putting a slight 'upward' pressure. I think the diaphragm is acting somewhat neutral, like the lungs in such a condition but I don't sense the diaphragm is moving downward as part of it. But my intention is an 'upward' pressure so I have to account for that while someone else might not be involving that.

I think here is where the semantics is causing one glint to appear red and the other green.

 

Straight from Newton's Law of Motion, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - there is a force opposing the descent of the diaphragm. Here's the thing - what is above the diaphragm to "pull it up" - if you are "picking up your diaphragm" on inhale, the muscular motion that translates to is really something along the lines of using the pulmonary ligament to assist in pulling the diaphragm up. It engages structures like this too much, that particular attaches to the hilium of the lung where the pulmonaries are, passes practically through the pericardium, linked with the esophagus...

 

 

I think this is what gave me the impression of stagnation at the epigastrum trying to impart motion in that manner. So there are these very significant tensions and energy drains from that approach, and that's not even addressing the detraction from compression about the lower dantien.

 

I've been studying eastern & western anatomy exactly for these reasons Ponder my psoas comments and let me know what you think!

[dawei]

I have mentioned twice the idea of 'intention'; that is not an anatomy issue but a Qigong issue.

 

I will say that I just did a search to see what is being said about reverse breathing and the diaphragm and it seems rather unanimous by practitioners, whether Qi, yoga, etc, that the diaphragm tends to move up in reverse breathing.

 

One guy mentioned that in his iron shirt practice the hardest part in reverse breathing was getting his diaphragm to relax so that it would learn to drop on the inhale. He wanted to achieve that so he could pack more energy (ie: by allowing the diaphragm to relax and drop to allow more air in on the inhale).

 

So, I don't think it is conflicting views as much as it depends on the application/practice/intention/goal... I have not personally practiced attempting to relax the diaphragm in reverse breathing but there does appear to be good application for that.

 

And I suspect that I did not really ask my Qigong master enough questions to see his comment on the full range of when to relax it (or not). I simply asked if the diaphragm tends to raise or lower as part of reverse breathing and he said the tendency is more to raise than it is to lower... If I explored Iron shirt questions with him, maybe he would shift to explaining how to relax the diaphragm to drop, etc... If I get interested in that I'll make sure to ask more questions next time.

[ricemaster]

Thank dawei,

 

> I will say that I just did a search to see what is being said about reverse breathing and the diaphragm and it seems rather unanimous by practitioners, whether Qi, yoga, etc, that the diaphragm tends to move up in reverse breathing.

 

Is it possible for you to give links to this information ? I am very interested

 

> One guy mentioned that in his iron shirt practice the hardest part in reverse breathing was getting his diaphragm to relax so that it would learn to drop on the inhale.

 

I don't understand why this is hard, as it simply mean keeping it moving they way it does in normal breathing. I've been practicing like that for almost a year.

 

Thanks

[joeblast]

I have mentioned twice the idea of 'intention'; that is not an anatomy issue but a Qigong issue.

 

I will say that I just did a search to see what is being said about reverse breathing and the diaphragm and it seems rather unanimous by practitioners, whether Qi, yoga, etc, that the diaphragm tends to move up in reverse breathing.

 

One guy mentioned that in his iron shirt practice the hardest part in reverse breathing was getting his diaphragm to relax so that it would learn to drop on the inhale. He wanted to achieve that so he could pack more energy (ie: by allowing the diaphragm to relax and drop to allow more air in on the inhale).

 

So, I don't think it is conflicting views as much as it depends on the application/practice/intention/goal... I have not personally practiced attempting to relax the diaphragm in reverse breathing but there does appear to be good application for that.

 

And I suspect that I did not really ask my Qigong master enough questions to see his comment on the full range of when to relax it (or not). I simply asked if the diaphragm tends to raise or lower as part of reverse breathing and he said the tendency is more to raise than it is to lower... If I explored Iron shirt questions with him, maybe he would shift to explaining how to relax the diaphragm to drop, etc... If I get interested in that I'll make sure to ask more questions next time.

Ok, let me hit you with another concept: the OSI model. Interaction with software doesnt happen without the hardware beneath to support it. Ergo, no matter what the heck your "intention" is, if you dont have the hardware then the movement will not take place. If the intention takes place, it happens partly by action of the hardware. So anatomy is absolutely a function of this discussion. I dont understand how something could be a "qigong issue" and not involve anatomy at certain important levels.

 

You are still asserting that the diaphragm moves up on inhale in reverse breathing? Or that "it tends to move up" as in my earlier assertion that if one does not have a certain baseline level of control over the psoas muscle then that is a misinterpretation that emerges because one wont necessarily know intuitively how to begin the motion? That was actually one issue I had with most things I've been taught or read about breathwork - everybody says many things but I had never heard a single source provide the first, the root, the origin, the initial beginning sequence of the motion - at least not to the desired level of detail. That's part of what I've sought to do over my years of study, and it led me straight to the psoas, another thing I barely ever hear mentioned when people speak of breath (at least not directly, it is done via flowery language that doesnt point right at the physical structure.)

 

No mechanism by which the lungs can fill has been demonstrated in the idea of the diaphragm ascending on the inhale - if the diaphragm does not descend, where is the expansion of the lungs taking place? Also, your third paragraph contradicts your second (and is more concrete and believable - I wouldnt have necessarily came out with 'relax' as a proper term for the diaphragm motion, but if you make the diaphragm the focus then you're..."pushing a rug," for lack of a better analogy off the top of my head.)

 

I think the conflicting information is coming about from how the questions are being asked.

 

The diaphragm isnt really "the root of the motion" and when you try to make it the root, motion dont perfectly resolve. By manifesting the intention of making the psoas the root of the breath motion, you are providing a more suitable anchor for the motions of breath. If you dont involve the psoas it doesnt provide a place for the wave of motion to spring forth from. Get a good understanding of the key points and take that to your master and see what he says if it would make you feel better, but I am 99.9% confident that once ambiguities have become transparent we'll all be in agreement.

 

 

Key points:the breath motion always starts with the psoas - that is *the* anchoring of the breath "deep into the dantien." As the psoas begins its descent the overlap between the psoas and diaphragm begets the downward motion of the posterior diaphragm. This descent of the diaphragm doesnt (and imho shouldnt) be the focal point of the motion. Combined with the other motions of reverse breath, inhale the perineum lifting abdomen sides rear firming allows for a compression about the lower dantien to take place given that compression is taking place from all sides.

[dawei]

Thank dawei,

 

> I will say that I just did a search to see what is being said about reverse breathing and the diaphragm and it seems rather unanimous by practitioners, whether Qi, yoga, etc, that the diaphragm tends to move up in reverse breathing.

 

Is it possible for you to give links to this information ? I am very interested

 

> One guy mentioned that in his iron shirt practice the hardest part in reverse breathing was getting his diaphragm to relax so that it would learn to drop on the inhale.

 

I don't understand why this is hard, as it simply mean keeping it moving they way it does in normal breathing. I've been practicing like that for almost a year.

 

Thanks

No idea why that guy said it was difficult for him; one would have to ask him.

 

I used a Google search of: "diaphragm movement with reverse breathing"

 

pages and pages of stuff to read and research... good luck

[dawei]

Ok, let me hit you with another concept: the OSI model. Interaction with software doesnt happen without the hardware beneath to support it. Ergo, no matter what the heck your "intention" is, if you dont have the hardware then the movement will not take place. If the intention takes place, it happens partly by action of the hardware. So anatomy is absolutely a function of this discussion. I dont understand how something could be a "qigong issue" and not involve anatomy at certain important levels.

I never said that anatomy was not involved in the discussion; I only pointed out that I was commenting on 'intention', which is a powerful practice in itself.

 

You are still asserting that the diaphragm moves up on inhale in reverse breathing? Or that "it tends to move up" as in my earlier assertion that if one does not have a certain baseline level of control over the psoas muscle then that is a misinterpretation that emerges because one wont necessarily know intuitively how to begin the motion?

Well, I am not trying to assert any anatomy issues. I did share that my internet research seems to show many stating the upward movement. It may be they are all wrong... which is fine. I am not adamant about it needing to be either way; only that one will do what their practice may require (or not). I acknowledged someone talking about iron shirt and their practice to 'relax' the diagraphm. So it seems to me to be partly a practice decision.

 

No mechanism by which the lungs can fill has been demonstrated in the idea of the diaphragm ascending on the inhale - if the diaphragm does not descend, where is the expansion of the lungs taking place? Also, your third paragraph contradicts your second (and is more concrete and believable - I wouldnt have necessarily came out with 'relax' as a proper term for the diaphragm motion, but if you make the diaphragm the focus then you're..."pushing a rug," for lack of a better analogy off the top of my head.)

I never claimed needing the lungs to be filled. If that is required as part of the practice then I can see why one wants the diaphragm to lower, regardless of the breathing direction. "Relax the diaphragm" was a word I saw used by many online... so I have no opinion about it's usage or phraseology.

 

I see this as more practice and application related. I don't care which direct it moves until I need or require it to move a certain way or I want to manipulate it (or not). I think the topic is a good one and you have provided a lot of interesting info.

 

The OP can drive the topic in direction as he wants, I don't have anything more to add.

[spiraltao]

one may be precise without necessarily being accurate if all of my shots fired are low and to the right, consistently, that displays precision but not accuracy. if my shots are all about the center, that is accurate but not necessarily very precise. if my shots all go through one hole in the X ring, then that is both accurate and precise.

 

you can be consistent and still have precision, but if you have a fundamental misunderstading, (e.g. your sights are sending all of your shots low and to the right) then you will have a tough time with accuracy because you will be guessing.

 

---

thanks for the graphic rv!

 

 

 

 

Did you ever teach at a community college JB? I had a chem teacher that explained to us the difference between precision and accuracy in nearly the same way!

 

 

 

Far too many people don't understand the difference between the two. I will now butt out

[joeblast]

I never said that anatomy was not involved in the discussion; I only pointed out that I was commenting on 'intention', which is a powerful practice in itself.

Understood, I was trying to relate it all to the subject of the thread, thus the two considerations were crossing - where there are ambiguities involved and we're trying to clear them up, manifestation of intent is veritably the reason the thread got created - how does one intend to do this practice?

 

Well, I am not trying to assert any anatomy issues. I did share that my internet research seems to show many stating the upward movement. It may be they are all wrong... which is fine. I am not adamant about it needing to be either way; only that one will do what their practice may require (or not). I acknowledged someone talking about iron shirt and their practice to 'relax' the diagraphm. So it seems to me to be partly a practice decision.

 

 

I never claimed needing the lungs to be filled. If that is required as part of the practice then I can see why one wants the diaphragm to lower, regardless of the breathing direction. "Relax the diaphragm" was a word I saw used by many online... so I have no opinion about it's usage or phraseology. Not "filled" as in full, I meant filling - how does the mechanism of filling take place? The descent of the diaphragm is what allows the filling to take place, that's why I made the gymnastics remark to CD. There is only so much the other areas of the lungs & connected tissue can do. Again, I'm just trying to present an analysis that should basically speak for itself. Any "challenges" were simply to prompt for why, which was what I was mainly concerned with.

 

I see this as more practice and application related. I don't care which direct it moves until I need or require it to move a certain way or I want to manipulate it (or not). I think the topic is a good one and you have provided a lot of interesting info.

 

The OP can drive the topic in direction as he wants, I don't have anything more to add.

Thank you /\

 

Did you ever teach at a community college JB? I had a chem teacher that explained to us the difference between precision and accuracy in nearly the same way!

 

 

 

Far too many people don't understand the difference between the two. I will now butt out

No, never taught in a classroom setting...any "teaching" I've done has been 1:1. I've been blessed with a lot of good teachers on the way No need to butt out, if you have input have at it! There's no muzzles here (outside of the insult policy)

Edited February 18, 2012 by joeblast

[ChiDragon]

The different between normal and reverse breathing

 

The Chinese have the definition of both methods of breathing are well defined. Even though the site does not allow one to copy and pasted, I still can translate it since it is not too long.

 

Let's define what are normal and reverse breathing...???

 

Normal Breathing(NB): Inhale with the abdomen expanded and extruded, relax during exhalation(some were doing abdomen compression intentionally).

 

Reverse Breathing(RB): Inhale with the abdomen compressed and frozen and relaxed during exhalation.

 

Using NB in the Lotus position, Zhan Zhuang, or practicing Chi Kung(the ultimate breathing method), it will increase the oxygen intake and enhance its efficacy.

It is because if the RB was done properly and considerably, the speed is rather gradual. Under the above breathing practice condition, the method allows one to be more comfortable and slow in breathing.

 

When practicing Fa Jin(發勁), under the vigorous and swift practice, using Reverse Breathing allows the lungs to exchange gas in a more rapid rate.

 

Even thought this breathing method, compared to Natural Breathing is more shallow but the dantien can be frozen, thus it was used more often during Fa Jin.

 

This method(RB) , normally, the teacher do not mention or teach it often. It was because when a student who had practiced for one to two years, one will perceive and become aware of the significance spontaneously. It would seem like one is doing RB unconsciously when performing Fa Jin.

[dawei]

Not "filled" as in full, I meant filling - how does the mechanism of filling take place? The descent of the diaphragm is what allows the filling to take place, that's why I made the gymnastics remark to CD. There is only so much the other areas of the lungs & connected tissue can do. Again, I'm just trying to present an analysis that should basically speak for itself. Any "challenges" were simply to prompt for why, which was what I was mainly concerned with.

I still see it as dictated by the practice or application. I don't do RB to fill the lungs. If one were flexing their stomach they are doing R.B. but I don't see that the amount of air one draws into their lungs is a focus, other than maybe drawing in less air to quicken the state. Taking this application to intention and Qi related practices can be done. But I accept that others do some practices where R.B. and filling the lungs is more important. So getting the role of the diaphragm does seem worthwhile to explain the anatomy as I can see how it would help in visualization (intention) too.

[joeblast]

Understood that lungfilling is not the 'explicit intention' of the action but simply by virtue of breathing, the lungs are being filled (although usually not to vital capacity.) That is merely all I meant by that - but the concept does have consequences in that in order to breathe one fills the lungs, so when an ostensibly unphysical process is referred to in a context of an ongoing breath strategy, some contradictions arose in the whole concept of "lifting of the diaphragm" on the inhale.

 

Just to be explicit I'm mainly considering reverse breathing as an ongoing meditative or zhan zhuang breath strategy and not necessarily considering other contexts such as tummo, fa jin, pushing a car, etc., therefore I feel it is quite important to make the processes as efficient as possible, especially if one is to settle into a state of significant quiescence. I believe those other utilizations would receive benefit from this analysis as a setting of foundation and muscle memory much in the same way doing taiji or bagua slowly assists one in sparring

[Mr. T]

hey all!

 

i felt compelled to reply because it is a rare thing that i have a little direct experience with, and this is one of them!

 

i am only a student, and not a "master", so take my experience worth a grain of salt. in our class, we practice reverse abdominal breathing typically only with fa jin and iron body practices, as has been recently mentioned in this thread. also as mentioned, much of the focus is on the intent of the practice, and less on the actual movement of the diaphragm. there is an internal compression involved, but i do not recall ever being instructed to physically move my diaphragm upward on the inhale. furthermore, the exhale coupled with the downward movement of the dan tien and chi is just as important, if not more important than the inhale. so in this case, everyone has been right according to how i have been taught!

 

one last thing, and i feel that it is important, is that we never practice reverse breathing without first going through some "warm-up qi gong". our sifu has stressed the cautious nature with which these practices should be done. i also must urge anyone to undertake these practices only with the supervision of a trained teacher.

[dawei]

one last thing, and i feel that it is important, is that we never practice reverse breathing without first going through some "warm-up qi gong".

but if your about to get punched in the stomach (and your natural reaction is R.B. ), do you first tell the guy to let you do "warm-up qigong" before he strikes?

 

But it is a good point. When practicing we can control the environment. I generally tend to do N.B. before R.B. but there are a few instances of just doing R.B... since that is the point of the practice; to be able to engage the Qi and intention in a single breath / second.

 

I have found being attacked by external Qi is much more dangerous than by punch. But the way to 'defend' both kicks in a split second or less: R.B. and engaging your Intention and Qi. You actually have less than a second to react, so there is no time for breathing in a way. I've pushed this way off topic so apologize to the OP for that.

Edited February 19, 2012 by dawei