Mr. T Posted February 19, 2012 but if your about to get punched in the stomach (and your natural reaction is R.B. ), do you first tell the guy to let you do "warm-up qigong" before he strikes? true. i am only in the beginning stages of learning internal work. and as you say, working towards complete control of the chi is the goal. happy reverse breathing all!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Learn to absorb as much as you can is the goal but not to have complete control of it. RB does not give you the ultimate amount of chi. Edited February 19, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I did not quite say that the goal of internal work was to control Qi; that may be a goal for a particular practice. That is why I am harping on issues being practice dependent. But this has made me realize something that CD brings up; the goal... Even to say 'to absorb as much Qi as possible' is not really the ultimate goal of all people and practices but it is generally both a realistic and desirable goal. What I would want to ask, and it belongs in another thread, is: What is the goal of people who practice? I am seeing that people are often talking about controlled environments to get the breathing and anatomy just right... but for what? What is the goal? A lifetime of practicing like in a laboratory for one's 'self'... Is it all about the 'self' ? I realize I very rarely hear on TB any mention of some real life application that the practice is leading towards. What is the great destiny at work here? Is is just all about the 'self' in the end? Anyways, this is a lot of rhetorical comments and not meant to be answered here... Edited February 20, 2012 by dawei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr. T Posted February 20, 2012 dragon, you are correct once again. well, i should say "partially" (at least according to how i have been taught). in the particular practice of rev breathing in the context of iron body and iron palm, the intent is on chi conservation and collection. so there you are right... it is my understanding however, that a large part of our chi gong practice is to learn to control the chi. (perhaps saying "complete control" is a little reaching)...but in the end, a major part of our intention is to be able to move the chi at the intent of the mind, take it from somewhere and put it somewhere else. or, just focus on it moving through our bodies and prevent stagnation of any kind. ok, now i said much more than intended, so i will stop commenting and keep reading. hae a good one, e'rybody! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted February 20, 2012 Mr. T Thank you. All the things had been said were all there in the mind. Partially or as a whole, it is only a matter of interpretation to some level of understanding. How much one can understand is how much one can absorb and accept but it was all there is to know.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted February 20, 2012 Stomach goes in and the organs force diaphragm to move a little up on the inhale as the diaphragm does a downward movement to take in the air, opposite on the exhale. Alveoli are forced to take in more oxygen because of the pressure, lightheadedness develops. So it's like blowing air inside a balloon as air escapes it, right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Stomach goes in and the organs force diaphragm to move a little up on the inhale as the diaphragm does a downward movement to take in the air, opposite on the exhale. Alveoli are forced to take in more oxygen because of the pressure, lightheadedness develops. So it's like blowing air inside a balloon as air escapes it, right? In general... In RB: When the stomach goes inward and the diaphragm goes upward, spontaneously, will cause the volume of the lungs to decrease. Therefore, less air will be entering the lungs during inhalation. The purpose of RB was to increase the gas exchange rate in the lungs. Another words, one needs to breath faster to keep up with the energy generated inside the body for a quicker response as to a martial artist would during combat. In NB: When the stomach goes outward and the diaphragm goes downward , spontaneously, will cause the volume of the lungs to increase. Therefore, more air will be entering the lungs during inhalation. Note: 1. It is not feasible for a novice to start with the Reverse Breathing practice. 2. Lightheadness was caused by breathing too fast or forcing the breath to go too deep without any prior Chi Kung experience. If one breathes slowly and have the breath to go as deep as one can go, then it should not be a problem. Edited March 3, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted February 20, 2012 Makes sense, then what's the problem? You guys have been going on about it for days Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) "When the stomach goes inward and the diaphragm goes upward, spontaneously, will cause the volume of the lungs to decrease. Therefore, less air will be entering the lungs during inhalation. " Seriously, the diaphragm moving upward causing the volume of air to decrease he is somehow equating with an inhale. I dont know how much more fundamentally misunderstood one can be regarding this. I understand the idea is simply asserting that there is going to be some back pressure due to the increased overall pressures involved - but there still hasnt been a single concrete thing asserted here by CD. The slightly less volume of air I am unsure of - it seems to be 'correct' yet if one is not breathing properly and deeply enough, one can absolutely breathe very deeply using reverse. What is so hard about diaphragm goes down, air goes into the lungs, diaphragm goes up, air leaves the lungs. This statement is no different in reverse breathing or natural ab breathing, it is a fundamental attribute of the human thoracic cavity. If you are inhaling, you are not exhaling, are you? And besides, if one is somehow jumbling aspects of inhale and exhale at the same time, that is also indicative of fundamental misunderstanding. Concerted harmonic action does not do this. Looking at the structures one finds a good balance of yin and yang for the natural breath, and all yang at once, all yin at once in reverse breathing. Edited February 20, 2012 by joeblast Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted February 20, 2012 So it's impossible to do as CD says because there's no space for air to go as the diaphragm goes up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Seriously, the diaphragm moving upward causing the volume of air to decrease he is somehow equating with an inhale. What I was saying: The diaphragm moving upward causing the volume of the lungs to decrease; but not the the volume of air to decrease. However, due to the result as the volume of the lungs decreases, then less air will go into the lungs during inhalation because the lungs have less volume to hold more air. Edited February 20, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) CD, the limiting factor does not have anything to do with "the volume of the lungs". The lungs are a pair of bags that fill with air. The descent of the diaphragm is what fills them, the ascent of the diaphragm is what empties them. The motion of the diaphragm is the *only* first order process that the lungs are concerned with. First order process means having a substantial overall percentage of effect. Second order process would have a much reduced effect so as to not even be considered "main" at all, as in "filling the upper parts of the lung;" third order process barely even mentionable in the effect on overall air volume, such as the motion of the perineum's effect on the volume of air. This limiting factor you speak of is because of the front of the abdomen, not the diaphragm - however, it is a second order process as compared to the diaphragm. Learning how to use the psoas muscle will show you why the front of the abdomen is a second order process. It only seems to be first order for beginners who dont have the requisite control to differentiate. You asserting that the diaphragm raises on inhale is asserting a first order process as the reason the motions of reverse breathing are limited, which is false - and I have given numerous reasons why. You havent given a single concrete reason why it would be otherwise. Simply, the first order process dominates - and you're telling us the dominating process is other than what it really is. dinner edits Edited February 20, 2012 by joeblast Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted February 20, 2012 CD, the limiting factor does not have anything to do with "the volume of the lungs". The lungs are a pair of bags that fill with air. The descent of the diaphragm is what fills them, the ascent of the diaphragm is what empties them. The motion of the diaphragm is the *only* first order process that the lungs are concerned with. I see that there is a missing link in your thought. You did not aware of the movement of the diaphragm in changing its location will affect the volume of the lungs. The volume of the lungs do determine the amount of air intake. If you do not put this into consideration, then there is no need to go any further for the discussion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted February 20, 2012 Cause and effect, you're inverting... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 21, 2012 Nice thread. It's good to see healthy discussion of something as basic and potentially misunderstood as breathing. Your experience parallels my own, Joe. I've been practicing for about 9 years. It's my opinion and practice that the diaphragm contracts during inhalation whether practicing normal or reverse abdominal breathing. During inhalation, the volume of the thoracic cavity increases, irrespective of the type of breathing. The difference is in what the abdominal cavity is doing. What reverse refers to is the action of the abdominal muscles (and pelvic muscles). In normal abdominal breathing, the abdominal and pelvic muscles facilitate the diaphragm's action by increasing the volume of the abdominal cavity which allows the diaphragm to work without much resistance. The chest expands, the abdomen expands, the pressure in the chest lowers, the pressure in the abdomen stays about the same (actually, it increases a little bit). In reverse abdominal breathing, the abdominal and pelvic muscles actually oppose the diaphragm's action by decreasing the volume of the abdominal cavity. This is the source of the compression (increased pressure in the abdominal cavity) that JB refers to. Perhaps this resistance does cause less downward movement of the diaphragm than in normal breathing, but it is still contracting and attempting to lower, actively. The chest expands, the abdomen contracts, and the intra-abdmonial pressure increases more than with NAB. The diaphragm can only do one of two things - contract (muscles fibers shorten, diaphragm actively lowers) or relax (muscle fibers lengthen, diaphragm passively raises). I guess what CD and dawei are implying is that the diagram passively raises as the intercostals actively contract. JB is correctly pointing out that this doesn't occur during reverse breathing as this is not breathing at all. If there is a relaxation (raising) of the primary motor of breathing while there is a contraction of the secondary system (intercostals), the net effect would be either no movement of air at all or possibly exhalation rather than inhalation. This makes no sense. So the diaphragm contracts (attempts to move down) during any inhalation, normal, reverse, or whatever else we could dream up. Although it's downward displacement would certainly be decreased by abdominal muscle contraction during RAB. My teacher is not one to use a lot of words. He teaches in a very old school fashion so much of this for me has developed over a long period of time as a result of internal experimentation, investigation, then correction and fine tuning by my teacher. Most of it is not made explicit in books and many teachers (and authors) misunderstand the process. JB correctly points out the importance of the accessory breathing apparatus which includes the ilio-psoas and don't forget the quadrates lumborum! There are some great anatomic and physiologic references to explore about the breathing apparatus - well worth the time of anyone serious about cultivation. Reverse breathing is a good way of working with guiding and circulating the Qi through creating a piston type feeling through the abdomen and lower dan tian. Once the energetic clarity has been refined, the same thing can be done using the Yi alone. The reverse breathing is a nice method to make and refine that connection between the physical and the energetic (between Jing, Qi, and Shen). But it's just a tool. It's not the endgame. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted February 21, 2012 Nice thread. It's good to see healthy discussion of something as basic and potentially misunderstood as breathing. Your experience parallels my own, Joe. I've been practicing for about 9 years. It's my opinion and practice that the diaphragm contracts during inhalation whether practicing normal or reverse abdominal breathing. During inhalation, the volume of the thoracic cavity increases, irrespective of the type of breathing. The difference is in what the abdominal cavity is doing. What reverse refers to is the action of the abdominal muscles (and pelvic muscles). In normal abdominal breathing, the abdominal and pelvic muscles facilitate the diaphragm's action by increasing the volume of the abdominal cavity which allows the diaphragm to work without much resistance. The chest expands, the abdomen expands, the pressure in the chest lowers, the pressure in the abdomen stays about the same (actually, it increases a little bit). In reverse abdominal breathing, the abdominal and pelvic muscles actually oppose the diaphragm's action by decreasing the volume of the abdominal cavity. This is the source of the compression (increased pressure in the abdominal cavity) that JB refers to. Perhaps this resistance does cause less downward movement of the diaphragm than in normal breathing, but it is still contracting and attempting to lower, actively. The chest expands, the abdomen contracts, and the intra-abdmonial pressure increases more than with NAB. The diaphragm can only do one of two things - contract (muscles fibers shorten, diaphragm actively lowers) or relax (muscle fibers lengthen, diaphragm passively raises). I guess what CD and dawei are implying is that the diagram passively raises as the intercostals actively contract. JB is correctly pointing out that this doesn't occur during reverse breathing as this is not breathing at all. If there is a relaxation (raising) of the primary motor of breathing while there is a contraction of the secondary system (intercostals), the net effect would be either no movement of air at all or possibly exhalation rather than inhalation. This makes no sense. So the diaphragm contracts (attempts to move down) during any inhalation, normal, reverse, or whatever else we could dream up. Although it's downward displacement would certainly be decreased by abdominal muscle contraction during RAB. My teacher is not one to use a lot of words. He teaches in a very old school fashion so much of this for me has developed over a long period of time as a result of internal experimentation, investigation, then correction and fine tuning by my teacher. Most of it is not made explicit in books and many teachers (and authors) misunderstand the process. JB correctly points out the importance of the accessory breathing apparatus which includes the ilio-psoas and don't forget the quadrates lumborum! There are some great anatomic and physiologic references to explore about the breathing apparatus - well worth the time of anyone serious about cultivation. Reverse breathing is a good way of working with guiding and circulating the Qi through creating a piston type feeling through the abdomen and lower dan tian. Once the energetic clarity has been refined, the same thing can be done using the Yi alone. The reverse breathing is a nice method to make and refine that connection between the physical and the energetic (between Jing, Qi, and Shen). But it's just a tool. It's not the endgame. I was watching a chen style tai chi stake video recently where the master says "silently say aah, si, xu, chui" ie aah on exhale, si on inhale, xu on exhale and chui on inhale. I said it out loud ad noticed it was making me reverse breath. Also, what was doing is making my ldt rotate clockwise...thoughts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) If you want to find a good physical set of constraints to prove this for oneself, get in a deep horse stance, like 90 degrees, and do reverse breathing - if you're not utilizing your psoas, you're either letting the lumbar spine bend, or you're losing out on half the power generation. How much more comfortable is the proper way? (and how much longer can you go?) At any rate, this is no different than your master correcting a zhan zhuang stance. If one shoulder is low, it would be pointed out and corrected...these particulars are becoming more available with adaptations in technology that shed a lot of light on the internal anatomy Edited February 21, 2012 by joeblast Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 21, 2012 I was watching a chen style tai chi stake video recently where the master says "silently say aah, si, xu, chui" ie aah on exhale, si on inhale, xu on exhale and chui on inhale. I said it out loud ad noticed it was making me reverse breath. Also, what was doing is making my ldt rotate clockwise...thoughts? The "healing sounds" bring a whole other set of things into the equation. The have an effect on how you are using the accessory muscles of respiration(the muscles around the throat, neck, upper chest, even into the face and shoulders; as well as the abdominal muscles). Also, I think that the vibration of the sound waves resonates with different organ systems and creates a variety of internal effects. Certain sounds are linked to specific organs (elements, colors, and so on). I'll leave it to others to discuss this in more detail as it's not an area I'm particularly skilled at. If it is "making" you reverse breath I would guess that mostly is related to engagement of the accessory muscles of respiration, primarily the abdominal muscles. As far as rotation of the LDT, I don't know about that relative to the use of sounds or reverse breathing. I can volitionally control dan tian rotation irrespective of what type of breathing I'm using. I will admit that I've never played around with dan tian rotation combined with sounds. I'll try and see what happens. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) I was watching a chen style tai chi stake video recently where the master says "silently say aah, si, xu, chui" ie aah on exhale, si on inhale, xu on exhale and chui on inhale. I said it out loud ad noticed it was making me reverse breath. Also, what was doing is making my ldt rotate clockwise...thoughts? The advance level of Chen style Tai Chi is nothing but Fa Jin. As I had mentioned before, Fa Jin requires Reverse Breathing in order to have faster responses and the ultimate body strength(Jin). The sounds they made do enhance in breathing and strength at the moment when the Jin was released. As far as I know, dan tien is just a descriptive location of a body part, it does not rotate. Edited February 21, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted February 21, 2012 Here is how I learned the Six Healing Sounds, often practiced in an Water Cycle order, from J. Johnson's program: Liver = Xu (Shu). Relieve stagnation, purge phlegm. Sound on exhale. Kidneys = Chui (Chree). Regulate lower dan tian. Sound on exhale. Lungs = Si (Ssss). Nourish lung issues. Sound on exhale. Spleen = Hu (Who). Digestive problems or stomach sluggish. Sound on exhale. Heart = Ke (Ha). Relieves fire, expel heat, improve circulation. Sound on exhale. Triple Burner = Xi (She). Eliminate excess heat. Sound on exhale. Using multiple sounds together is similar to getting an Rx prescription. I have never done one on inhale. --- Re: Turning the Dan Tian. As an energy center, I think the reference to turn is to the energy as a whole within the dan tian 'turns'. I learned it as 'drumming and beating'; think a washer/dryer machine, the drum turns. But we also practiced it as condensing it to the size of a pearl... But even Waysun Liao in his Tai Chi Classic says it is 'turn the dan tian area'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 21, 2012 The advance level of Chen style Tai Chi is nothing but Fa Jin. As I had mentioned before, Fa Jin requires Reverse Breathing in order to have faster responses and the ultimate body strength(Jin). The sounds they made do enhance in breathing and strength at the moment when the Jin was released. As far as I know, dan tien is just a descriptive location of a body part, it does not rotate. Sorry but I think it's important to correct the above misconceptions. Fa Jin is important but there is much more to Taijiquan, regardless of which school. Yielding, neutralizing, sticking, and many other types of Jin are equally important. Reverse breathing is not necessary "in order to have faster responses and the ultimate body strength (Jin)" - it has to do with guiding the Qi. This develops coordination power which is critical to Fa Jin as well as developing listening, sticking, yielding, and related skills. The rotation of the dan tian refers to guiding and rotating the Qi in the lower dan tian (and beyond). Rotation of the dan tian is a basic and fundamental technique in Chen Style and is present in all Taijiquan though less emphasized in other schools until you get to the martial applications and push hands where it becomes very obvious. Here is an interesting description of reverse breathing and dan tian rotation by Tu Ky Lam. Here is a nice description of dan tian rotation by Martin Mellish, an experienced Chen stylist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 21, 2012 Here is how I learned the Six Healing Sounds, often practiced in an Water Cycle order, from J. Johnson's program: Liver = Xu (Shu). Relieve stagnation, purge phlegm. Sound on exhale. Kidneys = Chui (Chree). Regulate lower dan tian. Sound on exhale. Lungs = Si (Ssss). Nourish lung issues. Sound on exhale. Spleen = Hu (Who). Digestive problems or stomach sluggish. Sound on exhale. Heart = Ke (Ha). Relieves fire, expel heat, improve circulation. Sound on exhale. Triple Burner = Xi (She). Eliminate excess heat. Sound on exhale. Using multiple sounds together is similar to getting an Rx prescription. I have never done one on inhale. I practice them very similarly. Thanks for that outline. One minor difference, the heart sound for me is more like "huh" than "ha" and is usually written He = 呵 I also have never practiced any of these on inhale. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) Steve... I know what you are saying. If you watch the Chen style more closely, you will see that they always put a little extra twist in their body movements. BTW I am just putting a little extra emphasis on that extra little twist not excluding other styles. Please do not assume that you are always talking to an amateur. I think we are here long enough to know who knows what and who doesn't. Don't you think...??? Edited to add. The advance level of Chen style Tai Chi is nothing but Fa Jin. Edited February 21, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted February 21, 2012 I think I've been here long enough for everyone to know that I'm super fly!!!!!!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted February 21, 2012 Yes...........I know............ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
