Encephalon Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Reading Kunstler's weekly essay is the best part of my Monday morning. Enjoy! Bold italics mine and idquest's. The Choices We Make By James Howard Kunstler on February 20, 2012 9:41 AM The misalignment of politics and reality threatens to scuttle both major parties, but it's especially gratifying to see the Republicans sail off the edge of their own flat earth on the winds of religious idiocy. For forty years it has not been enough for them to just be a conservative party. They had to enlist the worst elements of ignorance and reaction, and they found an endless supply of it in the boom regions of the Sunbelt with its brotherhood of TV evangelist con-artists and a population fretful with suburban angst. Now, in the last hours of the cheap oil economy, the forty year miracle of the Sunbelt boom dwindles and a fear of approaching darkness grips the people there like a rumor of Satan. The long boom that took them from an agricultural backwater of barefoot peasantry to a miracle world of Sonic Drive-ins, perpetual air-conditioning, WalMarts, and creation museums is turning back in the other direction and they fear losing all that comfort, convenience, and spectacle. Since they don't understand where it came from, they conclude that it was all a God-given endowment conferred upon them for their exceptional specialness as Americans, and so only the forces of evil could conspire to take it all away. Hence, the rise of a sanctimonious, hyper-patriotic putz such as Rick Santorum and his take-back-the-night appeal to those who sense the gathering twilight. And the awful ordeal of convictionless pander and former front-runner Mitt Romney drowning in his own bullshit as he struggles to extrude one whopper after another just to keep up with the others in this race to the bottom of the political mud-flow. There is an obvious dither backstage now among those who cynically thought they could manipulate and control these dark impulses of the frightened masses as the candidates all pile into a train wreck of super-PAC obloquy. Won't some level-headed adult like the governors of New Jersey and Indiana step up and volunteer? Is this finally its Whig Moment - the point where the Republican Party has offended history so gravely that it goes up in a vapor of its own absurdity? I hope so. The conservative impulse is hardly all bad. We need it in civilization. But it can't be vested in the sheer and constant repudiation of reality. The opposing Democrats have their own problem with reality, which is that they don't tell the truth about so many things despite knowing better, and, under Obama, they act contrary to their stated intentions often enough, and in matters of extreme importance, that they deserve to go down in flames, too. Just as there is a place for conservatism in civilized life, there is also a place for the progressive impulse, let's call it - for making bold advance in step with the mandates of reality and an interest in justice for all those along on the journey. The Democrats under Obama don't want to go to that place. They want to really go to the same place as the fretful Sunbelt fundamentalists, but by a different route - and that place is yesterday, by means of a campaign to sustain the unsustainable. Mr. Obama is pretending that an economic "recovery" is underway when he knows damn well that the banking system is just blowing smoke up the shredded ass of what's left of that economy. He pretends to an interest in the rule of law in money matters but he's done everything possible to prevent the Department of Justice, the SEC, and a dozen other regulatory authorities from functioning the way they were designed. He has never suggested resurrecting the Glass-Steagall act, which kept banking close to being honest for forty years. He never issued a peep of objection about the Citizens United case where the Supreme Court tossed the election process into a crocodile pit of corporate turpitude (he could have proposed a constitutional amendment redefining corporate "personhood."). He declared he'd never permit a super-PAC to be created in his name, and now he's got one. Mr. Obama represents a lot of things to a lot of people. He is mainly Progressivism's bowling trophy, its symbol of its own triumphant wonderfulness in overcoming the age old phantoms of race prejudice. Alas, that's not enough. Where exactly is the boundary between telling "folks" what they want to hear and just flat-out lying? Neither party can articulate the current reality, which is that we have to reorganize civilization pretty drastically. I've reviewed that agenda many times in this space and it largely amounts to rebuilding local economies at a smaller and finer scale. That is just not on the table for all current leadership, or even in the room. If neither party can frame an agenda consistent with that reality, then we'll have to get there without them, probably after a very rough period when the pretending still lingers in the air like a bad odor and no reality-based consensus is able to form, no agreement about what we should do. That's the period when a lot of things fall apart and people get hurt. These are the choices we're making right now. Edited February 21, 2012 by Encephalon 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idquest Posted February 20, 2012 The Democrats under Obama don't want to go to that place. They want to really go to the same place as the fretful Sunbelt fundamentalists, but by a different route - and that place is yesterday, by means of a campaign to sustain the unsustainable. Yeah, it sounds like a bit of fresh air in the flux of bipartisan sewage. I liked that part, pretty much sums it up for me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Enishi Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) It's saddening to see how few people openly contemplate these things. Among the younger generations, there is a stronger sense of disillusionment, but it's mostly dealt with via partying, shallow sex, Skyrim, online surfing and "look at me" tats/piercings (although I care about them, I am speaking of some of my own friends here). Genuine seriousness and planning for the future is eschewed in favor of short term pleasure. Meanwhile, the older generations whine about said behavior, whilst ignoring how their choices throughout the decades helped create the above. Instead, they mostly focus on trying to kick the can down the road and continue business as usual. All the while hoping that the younger generations will work harder so they can receive their hundreds of thousands of dollars in inefficient allopathic medical care in order to keep up the image of doing "everything possible" to extend their life right up until the last minute so they don't have to confront and accept the reality of death that their Christian faiths failed to prepare them for. Edited February 21, 2012 by Enishi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted February 21, 2012 It's easy to point out flaws I'll grant that. Now... How do we go about changing the humongous pool of people that are the backbone of these trends (rich or poor, young or old)? Posting this stuff on Taobums doesn't um..exactly reach those people. *scratch nose* I've seen in my own family how my mother got riled up when she discovered I did not hold her Fox News influenced worldviews. Simply posting stuff like the above - while I admit is cool - doesn't exactly change a damn thing. It'll just be read by the choir. And this is true no matter what age group you are in. We all sit around here - post in threads bemoaning the trends we see in society but what does that change? Any of YOU all tried to change the opinions of people like the ones talked about by Kunstler in your daily life? I've tried! Man...they DON'T budge! They just DON'T. Not even one tiny inch will they concede you have even a slight legitimate complaint about the unintended consequences of their views. And then they start to get super duper pissed off at YOU because YOU are the source of all that is tanking American society and destroying the future of the young. Just look at how Ralis and Joeblast constantly butt heads. And they're both fellow Taoist Alchemists! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Encephalon Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) It's easy to point out flaws I'll grant that. Now... How do we go about changing the humongous pool of people that are the backbone of these trends (rich or poor, young or old)? Posting this stuff on Taobums doesn't um..exactly reach those people. *scratch nose* I've seen in my own family how my mother got riled up when she discovered I did not hold her Fox News influenced worldviews. Simply posting stuff like the above - while I admit is cool - doesn't exactly change a damn thing. It'll just be read by the choir. And this is true no matter what age group you are in. We all sit around here - post in threads bemoaning the trends we see in society but what does that change? Any of YOU all tried to change the opinions of people like the ones talked about by Kunstler in your daily life? I've tried! Man...they DON'T budge! They just DON'T. Not even one tiny inch will they concede you have even a slight legitimate complaint about the unintended consequences of their views. And then they start to get super duper pissed off at YOU because YOU are the source of all that is tanking American society and destroying the future of the young. Just look at how Ralis and Joeblast constantly butt heads. And they're both fellow Taoist Alchemists! I still have a vivid memory of something Chomsky said years ago; what we really need is a persuasive, living, breathing vision of a viable alternative to the consumer model. It cannot simply be a few economic equations written down and theorized about. We've got to construct living models of how people can live outside of the consumer delusion. They already exist in small numbers across the globe but they get very little attention - no surprise there. The moment news catches on that people have voluntarily associated in sustainable democratic groups that don't prescribe the Rat Race and Fox News as a staple of modern life, more and more people take a look and say Fuck This Shit! I'm trading in my coat and tie for overalls and a wheelbarrel. We're talking about post-industrial skill sets, mass graves filled with televisions, manual labor, zendos, dojos, and organic farms. Okay, that's quite enough romanticism for one night! www.ic.org www.opensourceecology.org www.transitionnetwork.org www.postcarbon.org I still think it's necessary to post these messages because the noise machine designed to drown out any alternative message is kept loud 24/7. Edited February 21, 2012 by Encephalon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 21, 2012 Neither party can articulate the current reality, which is that we have to reorganize civilization pretty drastically. Excellent article and thread. Though I take exception with this last part. Reorganizing civilization only happens through a process. "We" cannot "do" it. "It" does "us." So our best bet is to reorganize ourselves. To be the change we want to make in society. There is, has been, and will be NO political or religious solution to our problems. We are the problem. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted February 21, 2012 www.ic.org www.opensourceecology.org www.transitionnetwork.org www.postcarbon.org I still think it's necessary to post these messages because the noise machine designed to drown out any alternative message is kept loud 24/7. That's well and good E but I still think it's preaching to the choir. I don't even think Joeblast would argue against people voluntarily choosing to do the things you advocated above as being necessary. He might even point out they're the pinnacle of his whole philosophy. I just wonder how do you talk to peeps like this: Evangelical Private Forums Fundamentalist Christian Forums BaptistBoard.com All the above quotes being recited by the speakers in the above YouTube vid where taken from posts in Christian fundamentalist forums. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted February 21, 2012 Here's a site for peeps to enjoy! Fundies Say the Darndest Things! A group that scours the web for forum posts from Evangelicals and Pentacostals (and other assorted peeps) I almost fell out of my chair laughing from this culled quote (I'm currently trying to track down the original ): No, God's Penis is not a biological organ. I never said God's Penis was the same as man's penis. Obviously it wouldn't be. That is why I pointed out God has a Holy, Righteous Penis. That is to say, it's not the same as man's corrupted, fleshy one. As I said when this subject first came up, once again: Penises are not just for sex & peeing. It is only because man is evil that he thinks of penises exclusively in those terms. Man is made in the image of God the Father. That is the primary reason why man has a penis. You cannot insert your evil prejudicial ideas of man's penis onto God - which is exactly what you are doing. God's Penis is not equal to man's penis. It's really not hard to understand. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Encephalon Posted February 21, 2012 That's well and good E but I still think it's preaching to the choir. I don't even think Joeblast would argue against people voluntarily choosing to do the things you advocated above as being necessary. He might even point out they're the pinnacle of his whole philosophy. I just wonder how do you talk to peeps like this: Evangelical Private Forums Fundamentalist Christian Forums BaptistBoard.com All the above quotes being recited by the speakers in the above YouTube vid where taken from posts in Christian fundamentalist forums. My wildly and optimistically speculative guess would be that once word got out that a bunch of dharma bums or Tao bums had successfully organized along the lines of the Amish and Hutterites and Mennonites there would be less psychotic fundy madness and a little more down-to-earth practicality on behalf of all parties. The pages of the DSM-III will be used to light fires while we read the classics to each other collect books on folk medicine. Something tells me the Fundies will continue a prayerful vigil until the last kernel of wheat is chewed up, followed by loud and lurid lamentations on why God had forsaken them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted February 21, 2012 My wildly and optimistically speculative guess would be that once word got out that bunch of dharma bums or Tao bums had successfully organized along the lines of the Amish and Hutterites and Mennonites there would be less psychotic fundy madness and a little more down-to-earth practicality on behalf of all parties. The pages of the DSM-III will be used to light fires while we read the classics to each other collect books on folk medicine. Something tells me the Fundies will continue a prayerful vigil until the last kernel of wheat is chewed up, followed by loud and lurid lamentations on why God had forsaken them. You may be right. Who knows? In the interest of showing yet more: A thread among Christians as to why God is always referred to as a Male Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted February 21, 2012 I think... You don't just go to them asking to change, and you don't become a vegan hoping it will stop some guy on the other side of the globe from taking his gun and shooting a rhino in the face. What you do is take charge and change the very ground they are standing on. Some guy out there can take his gun and shoot as many rhinos as he want because it's easy, so make it impossible. Everything has a reason so instead of trying to stop a whole bunch of people from being stupid, find out what makes them stupid and destroy it. The answer to the stupidity will be stupid and the defense of that thing will be stupid, but that's how civilized discussions start Maybe rhino horn is a miracle medicine and that's the reason, give them some real medicine. There's a reason why there's no real medicine, find out why that is and keep going until you find the smallest reason and help change it. Maybe crazy Christian people are misunderstood because they were all this time in a cave without knowing there are other people with the similar books and experiences that they never knew about, or wanted to think about. Maybe they need help to grow a little and stop hitting each other with a club over the head. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Encephalon Posted February 21, 2012 I think... You don't just go to them asking to change, and you don't become a vegan hoping it will stop some guy on the other side of the globe from taking his gun and shooting a rhino in the face. What you do is take charge and change the very ground they are standing on. Some guy out there can take his gun and shoot as many rhinos as he want because it's easy, so make it impossible. Everything has a reason so instead of trying to stop a whole bunch of people from being stupid, find out what makes them stupid and destroy it. The answer to the stupidity will be stupid and the defense of that thing will be stupid, but that's how civilized discussions start Maybe rhino horn is a miracle medicine and that's the reason, give them some real medicine. There's a reason why there's no real medicine, find out why that is and keep going until you find the smallest reason and help change it. Maybe crazy Christian people are misunderstood because they were all this time in a cave without knowing there are other people with the similar books and experiences that they never knew about, or wanted to think about. Maybe they need help to grow a little and stop hitting each other with a club over the head. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted February 21, 2012 Here's another fun site! I just about spit out my drink laughing when I read the following commentary on the quoted text: That is why I pointed out God has a Holy, Righteous Penis. That is to say, it's not the same as man's corrupted, fleshy one. This is clearly cribbed from Thomas Aquinas' little known treatise "On the Nature of God's Wang." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 21, 2012 Among the younger generations, there is a stronger sense of disillusionment, but it's mostly dealt with via partying, shallow sex, Skyrim, online surfing and "look at me" tats/piercings (although I care about them, I am speaking of some of my own friends here). Genuine seriousness and planning for the future is eschewed in favor of short term pleasure. Sounds very enjoyable, actually. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted February 21, 2012 Oh you are all gonna luv this. I found the forum for the God has a Holy, Righteous Penis quote. It's on the forums debating the movie: Expelled, No Intelligence Allowed along with other movies along the same lines: Here's another choice quote from the same author (Navaros): "Every Christian since the dawn of time has always known that God has a Penis. I tried to clarify that fact for ignorant atheists who mis-stated the fact, and falsely claimed that I said God was biological, which is something that I never said. You and your cabal of atheist pals - most of whom are thieves and stalkers - may laugh it up because you are immature, but that's the truth and that's what the Bible says. If you were mature than you would not find it hilarious every time someone says "Penis," and you would not mock God's Word. But as a Bible denialist who serves mammon rather than God, that is of course not what you do." and For all you Christians: what difference does it make to you if the atheists continue being atheists? Will God cease to exist if they are never converted? No, God will not cease to exist. But atheism must be opposed because it is a worldview that promotes evil, and indoctrinates children with propaganda in support of its evil viewpoints. atheists do not just harm themselves alone, they also harm everyone who their evil reaches. atheism must therefore be opposed because opposing it is the only moral choice. and I generally do not post again in threads after God has already won them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted February 21, 2012 From BaptistBoard.com Originally posted by Dr. Bob: George Dollar, guru and author of A History of Fundamentalism, classified FUNDAMENTALISM at the end of the 20th Century in these three categories. Here are the categories, definitions and a few schools that will help a person visualize the distinction. ALL ARE FUNDAMENTALISTS! MILITANT Fundamentalism = expound all Biblical doctrine AND expose all error and compromise and those who believe such Examples: Maranatha BBC, Bob Jones, Clearwater Christian, Faith BBC, BBC Springfield, BBC Clarks Summit, Central Seminary, Calvary Seminary, Detroit Seminary, Pillsbury BBC, Faith Seminary MODERATE Fundamentalism = expound all Biblical doctrine BUT will not expose error and compromise or those who believe such Examples: Biola, Cedarville, Dallas Seminary Grace Seminary, Cornerstone, Moody, Tennessee Temple, Westminster Seminary MODIFIED Fundamentalism = believe most (not all) Biblical doctrine AND will actively cooperate with apostasy and compromise Examples: Fuller Seminary, Gordon-Conwell, Trinity College and Seminary, Wheaton, LaTourneau, ORU, Western Conservative Baptist ***** Addendum: Here are some major Mission organizations and how Dr. Dollar would categorize them: Militant = Assoc of Baptists for World Evangelism, Baptist World Mission, Baptist International Mission Inc, Baptist Mid-Missions, Baptist Bible Fellowship, Maranatha Baptist Missions, Evangelical Baptist Missions Moderate = Amer.Board of Missions to the Jews, Central African Mission, Trans-World Radio, Word of Life Fellowship, Gospel Missionary Union, Back to the Bible Modified = Africa Inland Mission, Conservative Baptist Foreign Mission Soc., TEAM (The Evangelical Alliance Mission), Far Eastern Gospel Crusade, Greater Europe Mission, Sudan Interior Mission, World Vision, Wycliffe Translators So it seems a Militant Fundy is a Non-Compromiser in any shape, form or fashion. Or at least that's how I read the above description that they give themselves (ie. from no compromising to most compromising with alternative - excuse me: "Apostate" - POVs like Sinfest's ). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted February 21, 2012 More fun!!! :lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hga-mQyjYrI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted February 21, 2012 I still wonder if anyone ever truly realizes that a "drastic reorganization" equates to bad, bad times. It doesnt happen without some significant catastrophe - so those of you that wish for a drastic reorganization, are you hoping for a significant catastrophe also? I mean, if we're adhering to actual meanings of words here instead of just poking fun at the stupid shit some relatively ignorant fundamentalists come up with. (Seriously, God having a penis? ) Hell I'd point to Kuntsler in the very same context - some wacko saying whacked out shit and he has no frickin clue what the downstream results of stuff like that is - either that, or he's simply an evil bastard that wants tens of millions to suffer if not die from a "drastic reorganization." How is that any different than an islamo-fundie chanting death to america? Although they dont even realize the truth of the signs they hold up saying "democracy will lead to oppression." Because when your Republic decides it doesnt need its laws and mob rule wins the day, "democracy" truly will lead to oppression. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted February 21, 2012 I think... put your gun away I think... Christianity and everybody else can get through this without making any sacrifices. The books are awesome and all but how they are taught is messed up. The lessons are taught is a story form and are hard to understand if you read through them only once and stop thinking. Some of the deeper meaning gets interpreted correctly but people get stuck on some of the points that always get pulled out of context. When you are a Buddhist, you are told that you can't reach enlightenment by wanting it. In Hindu terms, or explaining them with chakras, when you aim for the 7th chakra, you are trying to satisfy your 4th chakra's needs. http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=180 The Bible says that sin is a heart condition. It is a condition of rebellion against God, which stems from pride. The Bible even refers to pride as "original sin." The Hebrew definition of the word sin means "to miss the mark." God created us to be like Him, but our pride and rebellion make us fall far short of that purpose. Our actions, though they may be "sinful" are really only the fruit of our rebellion against God. Our outward actions merely mirror our true inner condition. It is our true inner condition that God is concerned with. He knows the "real you" better than you yourself do, because he sees "the inner man" and all your secret thoughts and motives. There's the right idea hidden somewhere in there but almost no one sees it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) http://www.zerohedge.com/news/here-why-dow-just-passed-13000 I keep talking about government roots...what in tarnation did greece just receive another bailout for - they're now getting more money in bailouts than their entire gdp *facepalm* If the drastic change happens it will be because of government efforts, not despite. Time to dump my 401 and do something with it yet? Edited February 21, 2012 by joeblast Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 21, 2012 http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35617 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idquest Posted February 21, 2012 I still wonder if anyone ever truly realizes that a "drastic reorganization" equates to bad, bad times. It doesnt happen without some significant catastrophe - so those of you that wish for a drastic reorganization, are you hoping for a significant catastrophe also? I agree. Anybody who lived through the collapse of the Soviet Union (anybody remember that existed at all?) and the old Eastern Europe system as a whole can attest to that. For those who haven't had such an experience, the Great Depression times would make a hint of what it might feel like. I also agree on the theory of catastrophe. The theory says (at least this is how I understand it) that the bulk of population are not ready for any drastic changes until the BIG shit hit the fan. Only when people are covered in the brown stuff from heads to toes are they ready to accept some changes. The irony is that the ruling elites could realize the necessity of the changes but they can't implement the changes without the populous support - which will come only when a catastrophe hits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted February 21, 2012 Why dont we, here at TTB, do some reorganizing efforts? HUH? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted February 21, 2012 Here's a good place to start, tackling it locally http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GFM8FY Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan Posted February 21, 2012 Here's a good place to start, tackling it locally http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005GFM8FY whatchu smokin'? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
