Taoist Approach to Dating

[de_paradise]

Well that was more than I anticipated, thanks. I'm sure things will work out one way or another. One thing I noticed is that alot of this, and I'm sure you are aware, is not what one would call free will, but a kind of timeless archetypal drama where you are drawn in as a participant, and even cool thinking will not extricate you from the forces at play here. So even your "belief in free will" is a kind of point of view expressed deep inside the drama, part of the drama, which is ironic. I do get your point of how things can be speeded up by facing these issues day to day.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well that was more than I anticipated, thanks. I'm sure things will work out one way or another. One thing I noticed is that alot of this, and I'm sure you are aware, is not what one would call free will, but a kind of timeless archetypal drama where you are drawn in as a participant, and even cool thinking will not extricate you from the forces at play here. So even your "belief in free will" is a kind of point of view expressed deep inside the drama, part of the drama, which is ironic. I do get your point of how things can be speeded up by facing these issues day to day.

 

Haha, yeah, well, like I said, it's kind of hard to order because I'm still going through it.

 

But yeah, I've noticed the same stuff.

 

Which was kind of my whole point. When you engage in life you see more stuff in action. Sure, you can think "it would be ironic if I get into a situation like this with another person, so that will not happen, because I seed it coming from a mile away, yeah, I'm going to sit and meditate". But it's a whole other matter when you're smack dab in the middle of the actual situation and you don't know how other people are going to respond and you don't know what's going to happen moment to moment and....

 

Well it's much harder to keep that perspective.

 

And getting that kind of practice in, where you've got to get to where you were sitting still in the heat of the moment, I think, is valuable.

[JohnC]

Really? Like what kind of stuff specifically, (if you are not embarrassed to say)?

 

 

When a relationship is positively intentioned it can be extremely healing, but this is if both people know themselves and you frame the relationship right. Or at least both are loving and positively intentioned.

 

Because in the other person vulnerably bringing their perspective to you, it challenges your ideas and beliefs, both about yourself and the world.

 

And likewise yours to them.

 

Clearest example I know would be someone thinks they are unattractive, but they gave it a shot in connecting with the other person, and the person was very attracted to the other.

 

Just a simple one, but they happen all through the relationship. Then, as you grow together you will get to know each others triggers very intimately. This is where your practice gets a massive jump, as you get to practice as they yell at you, or you get triggered on the spot.

 

Can you love, even though you are hurt. Can you be vulnerable even when they are raging/crying/dominating/etc kind of stuff.

 

In this way a relationship can be a spiritual practice.

 

John

[de_paradise]

Haha, yeah, well, like I said, it's kind of hard to order because I'm still going through it.

 

But yeah, I've noticed the same stuff.

 

Which was kind of my whole point. When you engage in life you see more stuff in action. Sure, you can think "it would be ironic if I get into a situation like this with another person, so that will not happen, because I seed it coming from a mile away, yeah, I'm going to sit and meditate". But it's a whole other matter when you're smack dab in the middle of the actual situation and you don't know how other people are going to respond and you don't know what's going to happen moment to moment and....

 

Well it's much harder to keep that perspective.

 

And getting that kind of practice in, where you've got to get to where you were sitting still in the heat of the moment, I think, is valuable.

 

Yeah, the more I thought about it, the more I thought what you were communicating, and how its probably part of your path to do this, and its intertwined with your previous development. Likely some other people are not needing this type of love triangle drama on their path.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yeah, the more I thought about it, the more I thought what you were communicating, and how its probably part of your path to do this, and its intertwined with your previous development. Likely some other people are not needing this type of love triangle drama on their path.

 

Haha, I'm not talking about specifics, I'm using it as an example.

 

The shit/karma that I've got is meeting with the shit/karma that someone else has, and when they interact they play off each other, and they go places that it never would have gone if I just sat alone in my room meditating.

 

Add other peoples' shit/karma to the fire, and it suddenly starts taking on drastically more dimensions.

 

So sure, I can meditate on attachment, love, loss, jealously, possessiveness, indecisiveness, greed, envy, desire, passion, violence, caring, protecting someone, friendship, community, solidarity, solitude, etc etc all on their own. And given their own time, I might gain some insight into them and I might resolve them.

 

But it takes the practice up a notch (and it's a pretty big notch) when you are interacting with other people in real time.

 

You get an entire nexus of shit/karma that you just don't get on your own.

 

So maybe you stay a hermit and forget what dating is for. More power to you.

 

Or maybe you step outside and suddenly interact with this other person's shit/karma, and, whoa, it manifests as something totally different depending on where you both are at during the time you meet, and before you know it, you just spent the day getting chased by a rabid dog

 

But here's the REAL question: were you able to maintain your conscious awareness when you were running from the rabid dog as if you were able to maintain sitting in your room at home?

 

THAT'S the question. Not about whatever form it manifests (to me, anyway).

 

And chances are pretty good that unless you've been getting some REAL quality meditation time on your own, the answer is probably going to be "no". Because rabid dogs are pretty fuckin' scary. Because psycho ex boyfriends showing up to your apartment with a knife and three friends is pretty fuckin' scary. And unless you've got a pretty fuckin' scary amount of meditation under your belt, you are going to lose your center.

 

And if you just sat alone in a room meditating for 15 years, you never would have known that your consciousness had such gaping holes in it!

Edited March 20, 2012 by Sloppy Zhang

[de_paradise]

Ha Sloppy, sometimes I get the feeling that you are just a part of my personality debating with another part that is dominant right now. And perhaps I'm filling a kind of role in your own debate. I know this question is another age-old debated question not going to be solve by us in this thread: cultivation in society or removed from it. The flaw in your arguement is your assumption that by interacting in dating you will acheive progress, not be worse off, create more karma, or more psychological stuff, complexes. You are not a master just yet, so it would be hubris to think you can navigate through the mine fields. Hubris means false pride, delusion of grandeur. Many a cultivator get swept away into mundane society via sexual attraction. Oh, and "sitting in a room meditating for 15 years" is an exagerration tactic, it wont work: in reality, we are laymen practitioners in society, relationships on many levels is inevitable. When I said "hermit" it was an exaggeration to, kind of berating myself I guess, for being so antisocial. It pisses me off to be such a loner, but I dont want to start a relationship with a girl when I know my Kundalini awakening is more important, and when K says jump, I can't refuse, its not a choice to fight evolution at this stage.

 

Maybe you think we are not talking specifics, but we always are, everything is a metaphor for something else anyway. John C, "clear example", I cannot relate to what he's saying, but it makes perfect sense to him. But in some way hes saying the same thing, meeting psychological challenges head on is a faster route than sitting "Zen" and purifying emotions by meditation.

Edited March 21, 2012 by de_paradise

[Sloppy Zhang]

The flaw in your arguement is your assumption that by interacting in dating you will acheive progress, not be worse off, create more karma, or more psychological stuff, complexes. You are not a master just yet, so it would be hubris to think you can navigate through the mine fields.

 

Actually, I know that It's part of the practice, and it's why it's a double edged sword

 

Because, on the one hand, sure, it brings to light a lot of stuff you might not get if you're on your own.

 

But on the other hand, if you don't handle it, then you're no better off, might be worse off, and it's just living life like anybody else.

 

Kind of like the people who claim they want to learn sexual practices "for spirituality", but really they just want an excuse to fuck and still think they are better than others.

 

So, yes, part of my practice through these times is recognizing when I'm not practicing, and just doing more of the same. Part of my practice involves contemplating about all of the different things I might do in a situation, and how that may affect my own or others' shit/karma. This makes me think about how dangerous it is to go about life in a mindless way, because then you're just sending out knee-jerk responses to other peoples' issues based on your own. That ain't practice. So then it helps bring awareness back to the situation (at least for me).

 

I'm not proposing we come to a hard and fast conclusion that "it's always better to cultivate in the world" or "it's always better to cultivate alone". There are pros and cons to both, and one may be more appropriate than other for different people at different times.

 

It'd be stupid to say "what's the point in separating yourself from society?" because there are some benefits to it.

 

But it would be equally as short sighted to proclaim there is no spiritual use to being in society, or in being in relationships.

 

Oh, and "sitting in a room meditating for 15 years" is an exagerration tactic, it wont work: in reality, we are laymen practitioners in society, relationships on many levels is inevitable.

 

Is it really? You might physically go to a job and/or maintain the minimum amount of contact to function in society, but where is your focus? I think for many people it is "I wish I was sitting somewhere meditating".

 

Pull yourself away at every opportunity so you can get back to where you "really" should be. Seems like that's exactly the type of thing all of those stories seem to warn again (like the monk who carried the woman across the mud, then set her down, but the student thinks about her the whole trip).

 

When I said "hermit" it was an exaggeration to, kind of berating myself I guess, for being so antisocial. It pisses me off to be such a loner, but I dont want to start a relationship with a girl when I know my Kundalini awakening is more important, and when K says jump, I can't refuse, its not a choice to fight evolution at this stage.

 

I think this is something that would be interesting to explore.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Sloppy Zhang

[Birch]

I have to agree with Mr Slopp on this one. After you've gotten an idea of what's the what due to cultivation then it could IMO 'bring it back' to have reference points for said realisation. It just has to be relative to you (whereas you previously had not noticed what was changing/moving). I'm sure for others in time the sun rising was relative enough. Perhaps much more cultivation leads to sufficient sensitivity that the sun rising (again) is enough.

 

The other thing I wanted to bring in is that "karma" is seeking resolution, you are seeking resolution, I am seeking resolution, they are and the world is seeking resolution. I don't reckon any one way of this is better than another. Even though individually it may suck major big time. I don't mean passivity in it either.

 

 

---rambling opinion clear as mud alert---

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

eh, all i can say about taoist dating is that you can cultivate intrinsic chi (double intrinsic energy; the stuff you're born with) via positive interactions with other people, animals, plants, and other things and places, so dating has a potential for cultivation benefits, but a bad date also has a potential for inhibiting personal practices and cultivation for periods of time. it all depends on the interpersonal exchanges, i guess.