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[Gerard]

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Edited September 16, 2013 by Gerard

[Sunya]

So it's just a collection of quotes from sutras? I was a bit disappointed. Thanks for posting it though

Edited February 24, 2012 by Sunya

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Looks interesting. The file is no longer available there but I found it here (accesstoinsight.org).

[Birch]

Yes I know, but you know monks are very passionate about traditional texts, which is understandable.

 

For lay practitioners are others perhaps is better looking at stuff written by Ingram for example, which can be easily found online and posted several times here at TTBs.

 

Anyway the main characteristic of a stream enterer is:

 

"Leaving behind the illusion of the self and ultimately of all phenomena (but this last bit may also vary according to the individual, IMO; it could be open to interpretation?)."

 

The various fetters that are left behind that are also part of this stage vary according to the practitioner, and I personally will leave the out of discussion to avoid turning this thread into a mini-war of attainments and such.

 

War on

 

The last bit IMO has every bit to do with the first bit. Diamond sutra:-)

Also, I continue to disagree with the term "illusion" - I reckon it's unecessary. Sort of like pointing out what is not the case. Why bother doing that?

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[Birch]

Thanks Gerard, old fake me has left the building:-) That just leaves...new fake me:-)

[Maddie]

How would someone know if they became a stream enterer?

 

So I was reading this website http://www.no-self.com/ and it blew my mind away and helped me to realize that there is no "YOU/ME". Totally blew my mind, and yet was fascinating. Though as fascinating as it was and I realized that all desire and suffering comes from this false notion of think of myself as a separate self, I realize that I still feel the pull and effect and workings of this false separate self that I came to realize does not really exist. So why is that?

[Simple_Jack]

How would someone know if they became a stream enterer?

 

So I was reading this website http://www.no-self.com/ and it blew my mind away and helped me to realize that there is no "YOU/ME". Totally blew my mind, and yet was fascinating. Though as fascinating as it was and I realized that all desire and suffering comes from this false notion of think of myself as a separate self, I realize that I still feel the pull and effect and workings of this false separate self that I came to realize does not really exist. So why is that?

 

Because:

 

1. It's an intellectual understanding.

 

2. You still haven't abandoned all that is to be abandoned and realized all that is to be realized.

 

P.S. That website is a crap source for understanding Buddhist concepts.

[Maddie]

So then is it more like no-self is the clinging to a false idea of self?

[Simple_Jack]

So then is it more like no-self is the clinging to a false idea of self?

 

Imputation of an identity (Atman) onto any of the 5 skandhas...You are just a bundle of 5 interdependently arising psycho-physical processes.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Simple_Jack

[Maddie]

Imputation of an identity (Atman) onto any of the 5 skandhas...You are just a bundle of 5 interdependently arising psycho-physical processes.

Hmmm interesting. Yea that website might have not been the best but I did about 5 hours of Vipassana and Samatha yesterday and I feel .... um .... "different" today, like my mind is blown and I have all these questions lol.

[Simple_Jack]

Hmmm interesting. Yea that website might have not been the best but I did about 5 hours of Vipassana and Samatha yesterday and I feel .... um .... "different" today, like my mind is blown and I have all these questions lol.

 

I can see what you mean, it's only natural. Keep investigating....

[Maddie]

I can see what you mean, it's only natural. Keep investigating....

I've noticed after meditating a lot one day my urge to investigate and study the next day is much greater.

[RongzomFan]

"It is not asserted that a chariot is something other than its parts.

It is not something that is not other, nor does it possess them.

It does not exist in the parts, nor do the parts exist in it.

It is neither their mere collection nor the shape—thus is the analogy."

-Candrakīrti's ''Madhyamakāvatāra''

[Maddie]

Does anyone else get what I'll call "spiritual stress"? As in your not stressed about your career or the stuff most people in the world stress about so you don't even know who to talk to about it that would understand. But rather do you stress about wanting to attain enlightenment and not be reborn and you worry that if you are reborn the next time around you might be born some moron and loose all the progress you've made this time around?

[RongzomFan]

that's a typical Buddhist concern.

[Maddie]

that's a typical Buddhist concern.

Yea I can see how. Though I did the inner smile and healing sound meditation this morning which helped me to relax to a great deal. Granted I realize its a Taoist practice but it just further convinces me how wonderful Buddhism and Taoism go together

[ChiForce]

So it's just a collection of quotes from sutras? I was a bit disappointed. Thanks for posting it though

Let me take a stab in this. To become a stream enterer, I believe one must first experience the first stage of samadhi. What is the first stage of samadhi? The ability to see the true fundamental nature of forms, which are impermanence. The fundamental nature of forms is so happened to be the first skandha. In reality, the 5 skandhas do mix in with one another. What does it mean in the real world? Can you identify the first skandha in the real world? I am not talking about if an apple is actually an apple. It could be an apple if it is your desire to liberate yourself from the apple. Those evil apples. Obviously, I am talking about something more urgent and socially collective. For me, as a Chinese American living in America for over 20 years, it was racist stereotypes of all forms. Think about it, the social status stratification of the American society for the past 300 years have been based on the color of your skin. This was done legally and institutionalized. The color of your skin??? You can't get any more skandha of form then this. What if I have a dark tan? Does my social statue change? Hahahah... Now, your sense of self has to be consumed by the skandha of form. To know it enough that you can see its fundamental nature which is originally empty.

 

I believe that was how I reached my first stage of Samadhi when I was 18. It was a liberating feeling. The side effect is that I have no love for America in general. Why should I continue to cling onto a civilization that worships the skandha of forms and to subject myself in the continuous cycle of death and rebirth???

[ChiForce]

Hmm...what if you were a stream enterer in your previous life and now a returner??? Of course, you don't remember it. Does it mean you have to become a stream enterer again? How does this work on an experiential level??? I assume not but your level of your illumination penetration "should be" more greater and advanced......in this life.

Edited May 22, 2013 by ChiForce

[XieJia]

The base of mindfulness have been established in the Stream Enterer;
They no longer see selves, an individuals, an objects in anything.

They see causes as causes, conditions as conditions and how things arises and ceases.

 

Therefore their minds is firmly established in the Noble Path (Eight into one),

there is no longer doubts in their sila, samadhi and wisdom. They know that this will eventually leads to their liberation.

 

Neither there are thoughts "I am this and this therefore I am this." nor "I am not that or that therefore I am not that."

 

Peace to all.

[xabir2005]

Hmm...what if you were a stream enterer in your previous life and now a returner??? Of course, you don't remember it. Does it mean you have to become a stream enterer again? How does this work on an experiential level??? I assume not but your level of your illumination penetration "should be" more greater and advanced......in this life.

Yes you have to become stream entrant again by realizing the nature of dharma, realizing the emptiness of self.