Does Magic Exist ?

[konchog uma]

My introduction to magick was the book 'Magic and Mystery in Tibet' by Alexandra David-Neel. I was 19 at the time, and after a few thousand other books, it remains on my top 5 list.

 

yes that is a great book!

[Jetsun]

In terms of Shamanic "magic" occurrences of things like telepathy are common with Ayahuasca Shaman of the Amazon, also things like inhabiting the body of a bird or animal and journeying are common even with relative beginners. If you had asked me a few years ago if it was possible I would have said no, but now I am pretty much convinced that the people who talk about these things aren't lying or talking in metaphors.

[fallintounity]

Great thoughts

Edited February 25, 2012 by fallintounity

[Phosphor]

A lot to be said here.

 

Magic first and foremost is a spiritual system of evolution. Yes, you learn how to accumulate and thus control the vital force, elements, and akasha- but not for the powers. The primary and most sublime use these practices are to grow, and evolve spiritually. We do not work with the element of fire in order to make a room slightly hot. If we want to do such, we can turn on a heater today with much less effort. Instead, when we learn how to make a room hot due to the accumulation of the fire element, it represents that we are now in control of that element. When we are in control of the elements, our astral bodies and thus emotions are no longer swayed to and fro. We become still. This also occurs on the mental level. As we gain more and more control over the different forces of the universe, we learn about the Good as Plato named it. We learn more about Nature, and the world, and we become ever more in control of this great illusion known as "Maya" in sanskrit.

 

Sure, with this control comes power, but only sorcerers make the development of power their main aim. Not all sorcerers are evil, or black magicians, they may simply use magical practices to heal, or innocently improve their lives. Some sorcerers are good people, and help people with their abilities, but if their aim is not to come closer to God, and achieve greater degrees of enlightenment, then they are sorcerers and not wise men. The magi were first and foremost wise men. This all is confirmed by the sage Paracelsus, when he is quoted as saying:

 

Sorcery has been called Magic: but Magic is Wisdom, and there is no wisdom in Sorcery.

 

Even in the Goetia of King Solomon, it is said;

 

Magic is the Highest, most Absolute, and most Divine Knowledge of Natural Philosophy, advanced in its

works and wonderful operations by a right understanding of the inward and occult virtue of things; so

that true Agents being applied to proper Patients, strange and admirable effects will thereby be

produced. Whence magicians are profound and diligent searchers into Nature; they, because of their

skill, know how to anticipate an effect, the which to the vulgar shall seem to be a miracle.

 

It is the understanding of occult things, and the understanding of Nature's forces, but only to Divine ends. So let us come to embody this fact. Magic is an evolutionary science.

 

Now, to speak of siddhis and powers. Certainly, a magician gains powers as a side affect. But not much importance is placed on them, unless there is specific need to use them for some greater good. The Akasha, or that very subtle spiritual energy which resides above the mental realm, and which is the substratum of all existence, is also known as the "protector of miracles". It is named such because only a magican, or sorcerer of a certain degree of purity can go so far with their power. This is not out of spite, it is natural. A black magician is simply too dense a being, too materialistic and heavy to experience the akasha. If they were to do so, then the akasha would sublimate their bodies and mind to such a degree that they would leave their selfish practices aside, realizing their real self as being beyond the physical body which they once wanted to surround with wealth, prestige, and other materialistic things.

 

There also seems to be some confusion between magical powers and spiritual development. Having one does not necessitate having the other. An enlightened man is enlightened because they can experience their higher self. Nonetheless, their body is still human. The only difference is they can now experience the truth of the unity of consciousness, and are able to see this unified light within all. Still, the illusion of the world is powerful. When they are in the world, they take part in its rules. This answers your questions about Crowley, and other spiritual teachers such as Franz Bardon, and why they may have health problems or worldly problems if enlightened. Enlightenment does not make everything perfect- not in a worldly sense. In other words, someone looking at an enlightened man may judge him and say as you have, well his life is in pieces, he is suffering, his life is not the way it should be. However, the enlightened man is living in God now, his life has become perfect to him. There is nothing out of place. This is because he no longer sees himself as his body. He understands in his wisdom that his body lives according to the laws of nature, and does not interfere. They have attached their point of view to their higher self. Crowley was a very wise man. A wise man does not worry much about such things. He was too busy getting his work done- a work which was unnoticed amongst most. Franz Bardon had health problems because he entered the body of soul who had already been born into. This entrance into an already occupied body is called an Avesh, and to repay the soul Franz Bardon agreed to live out the karma of the boy. This is one reason why he had health problems and so many issues in his life. So magical power is separate from spiritual development.

 

Most magical powers only are gained through practice. Even most saints who become enlightened and suddenly achieve some power, only have that power because they developed it in a past life. It is like riding a bicycle, you never forget how! Some power may be given by a higher source, but rest assured most powers were developed, even if it were lives back by the magician. So achieving enlightenment does not mean you gain complete control over the world. Enlightenment is only the beginning. It means you can experience Truth, and your part in Truth, but more practice is required to bring that Truth, and Light down into your lower bodies. The realization of yourself as the Truth and Light is enlightenment; the bringing down of that Light into your lower bodies is the work of the Magician, and this leads to Henosis, which is the deification of the lower bodies (Mental, Astral and eventually Physical). This is a higher achievement. There is a difference between being able to perceive truth, and see past the illusion of the world; and gaining control of the illusion.

 

Firstly know God.

[Mattimo]

No.

 

Magic is the unknowing-knowingness' that breathes the awareness to ponder the question if 'it' / 'it's-self' is possible

[robaire]

(note: phospor made a pretty good post there...)

____________________

 

 

or you could ask ....... what is metaphysical history?

 

how is it different from political history or other kinds of history ...?

 

for example, what happens when an army (Roma, 1st to 6th centuries AD and beyond) conquers an entire continent, which is strategically located and wealthy?

 

well it get lots of valuable real estate, that's for certain.

 

but ... armies at no good at property management. so ... all that r.e. belongs to their overseers, the nobility and the senate, the elite class of Roma. and who are these elite classes? are they the same or different, than say, the Egyptian noble classes (pharaoh etc) or the Greek, or the Assyrians etc.

 

sure they are. and they don't really want to manage all that land .... so they dole it out to their allies (partners in the land owning game) . and these new landowners become the royalty of europe. and still might be so to the modern times.

 

imagine that. being the buddy of the Vatican makes you into a King or a Duke or a Baron etc.....

 

well this is magic stuff, but it's history. movies like Lord of the Rings and Star Wars tell very good magic histories. the ancient conflict. then you have the Law of One. service to other vs service to self. but what is service to other, really? is such a thing possible, when done by ego? and isn't service to self an aspect of self cultivating? hahaaa... the lines blur a bit .....

 

________

 

I guess the problem is, it's tough to find any accurate history except inside of the elites private libraries, and heck they don't just allow ordinary folks in there. but ... there are other ways of finding out. like .... if you have "special friends" .... with an outside perspective.

 

________

 

well to be honest, if you have some big armies and you conquer all sorts of land, the real estate value might not be your main motivations for value.

 

you could be there for the resources. or other stuff. good real estate would be in a temperate climate mostly, where agriculture is good, and managing it is not the hardest project. (you always need local managers. your lords and barons and dukes are great for that, so long as they remain loyal.....)

 

(so you set up the "Institute for the Americas" ... to train all these fast buddies ...) (in the fast art of ... being good and loyal to the boss....)

 

but hey. wait a sec .......

just who is the boss anyways ........?

 

wow that gets into a whole other deal there. figuring out if magician - kings are the bosses, or if some other beings are bosses ..... wow ...

 

____________

 

ps. sorry for the long post but .......... go to a Catholic service and try and find even 5 minutes of it that is not a lot of magic ..... uh- oh ... ah smells trouble there, best log out ...

 

and by the way, I liked Vetsch a lot except his conclusions are all distopian. he built up to his premises by amazing original forensic history there, but the outcome was distopian. which I believe is 100% false. still I would not toss out that supportive materials ...) one part of magic I subscribe to pretty much is the "you create your reality" part ..)

Edited February 26, 2012 by robaire

[robaire]

Most magical powers only are gained through practice. Even most saints who become enlightened and suddenly achieve some power, only have that power because they developed it in a past life. It is like riding a bicycle, you never forget how! Some power may be given by a higher source, but rest assured most powers were developed, even if it were lives back by the magician. So achieving enlightenment does not mean you gain complete control over the world. Enlightenment is only the beginning. It means you can experience Truth, and your part in Truth, but more practice is required to bring that Truth, and Light down into your lower bodies. The realization of yourself as the Truth and Light is enlightenment; the bringing down of that Light into your lower bodies is the work of the Magician, and this leads to Henosis, which is the deification of the lower bodies (Mental, Astral and eventually Physical). This is a higher achievement. There is a difference between being able to perceive truth, and see past the illusion of the world; and gaining control of the illusion. Firstly know God.

 

God is the great potentia. it even contains wishes you did not know you had. it also provides coherence.

[Vmarco]

[fallintounity]

well lets see..

 

petition avis rent a car-- you know anyone going on vacation, tell them to not rent from avis, and tell their friends to tell their friends-- have them cancel their reservations-- from the bottom of their hearts have good eminate in waves of happiness-- avoid avis rent a car at all costs-- pass the word on

 

lets see if magic exists, they want me to pay them extraordinary amounts of money--

 

and are ruining my life, with obscene amounts of anxiety and stress, they prey on my poverty--

 

Like I've mentioned I've done great things and have only just begun, and their aim is to seemingly have me die with the amount of cortisol they have caused my body to endure..

Edited February 26, 2012 by fallintounity

[fallintounity]

Well, that isn't quite the point; If you get it, you get it--

 

Magic is real; but lets see if real life could become magical

[Fu_dog]

To the OP, I don't know if you would call what they do "magic" or not, but the people who practice Santaria in Miami (this practice is originally from Africa, refined in the Caribbean) are known to conjure up some pretty strong spells, both to help and to hurt.

 

They call upon ancestor spirits to do their bidding. If you find a burnt chicken with paraphernalia in a corner somewhere in Miami, especially common in the Little Haiti area, then that's where a Santaria (or less common Voodoo) priest has performed a ceremony. Side note: there are 250,000 wild chickens running around Miami so the Santaria practitioners have plentiful access to the chickens.

 

I can promise their spells (or magic) have been demonstrated enough that pretty much nobody in South Florida seeks to challenge them.

[Seth Ananda]

I've read some stuff about occultism, white magic, black magic but the funny thing is that all the famous occult practitioners like Alister Crowley or Abramelin died relatively young and not particularly powerful or rich or anything ?

I don't believe in religion and yet most occultism revolves around angles and demons, so I'm really puzzled. I know that there a lot of people who practice white or black magic who will undoubtedly claim that magic exists but most of them also seem to be very miserable, sacrificing cats all day long to God knows who.

 

I've never seen anything miraculous enough in my life (except my life of course) to say that there are demons or angels or anything similar. What do you guys think ?

Maybe they no longer cared about riches? I know that for my own workings these days, they are almost never for mundane purposes.

Magick as a path also does not garuntee getting good exercise or eating healthily...

[doc benway]

I've read some stuff about occultism, white magic, black magic but the funny thing is that all the famous occult practitioners like Alister Crowley or Abramelin died relatively young and not particularly powerful or rich or anything ?

I don't believe in religion and yet most occultism revolves around angles and demons, so I'm really puzzled. I know that there a lot of people who practice white or black magic who will undoubtedly claim that magic exists but most of them also seem to be very miserable, sacrificing cats all day long to God knows who.

 

I've never seen anything miraculous enough in my life (except my life of course) to say that there are demons or angels or anything similar. What do you guys think ?

Looking for magic in our lives is like a fish looking for the ocean.

It's all a matter of awareness.

[Seth Ananda]

Blah blah blah, more Vmarco rubbish!

On the contrary,...the greatest (non-fantasy) magickians, the Mahasiddhas, were great because they understood the god meme. Know god, no true magick; Gnow true magick, no god.

lol, how do you gnow this? did you meet them?

You have nothing but belief to go on surrounding their alledged capasities...

 

Belief, especially a belief in theism, is an impediment and direct barrier to magick. In other words, a Mahasiddha practices magick by manipulating the space–time holographic reality; as distinguished from magic or slight-of-hand practiced by theist illusionists.

Hehe, more unexamined belief from Vmarco! So Buddhists are the only people capable of magick! How convenient! And anyone not practicing is thus only an illusionist doing slight of hand?

Again, How do you Gnow this? Well you don't! Again this is you just parroting your beliefs from your conditioned and unenlightened mind, which due being full of beliefs you are incapable of questioning, means you gnow nothing!

Beliefs beliefs beliefs! Vmarco is full of unexamined beliefs!!!!

I think it is fairly safe to say that you Vmarco did not meet every theistic mage to see for yourself if they were just doing sleight of hand. It is also fairly safe to say that you never practiced magick from a theistic tradition, or you would 'gnow' there is no sleight of hand involved.

 

The Irony is not lost, that you use a Theistic mages spelling of the word Magick to seperate it from the common meaning of the word magic being for sleight of hand and illusion...

 

Real magick demands a high level honesty. A tantric Buddhist said, “Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really don’t know.

lol, like you gnow that tilopa did such and such? Why dont you turn these Ideas against yourself and examine whats in your head before pointing the finger at others? Why do you 'believe' tilopa put meat back on a fish skeleton and made it swim through the air?

Because you are a Be[lie]f Monkey, just like the worst Christians!

 

 

Somebody asks you. “Is there a God?” and you say, “Yes, God is.” Remember: Do you really know? If you don’t know, please don’t say that you do. Say, “I don’t know.”. . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge.”

Sure, but not all Theists fit this category. Imagine someone says "there is a God, its like such and such..." A belief monkey will say "ok I believe!" but a Philosopher says "ok that may be true, but I wish to see for myself" and then sets out to experience it for themselves.

This was my path. I practiced the ways the Mystics describe, till I experienced it for my self. Sure I believed for a while 'This is God', because the deep experiences in mysticism are very convincing, both Internally and Externally, but In some way the more one experiences the more questions grow. Belief becomes irrelevant, as a lot of what happens, could be interpreted in many many ways. The mind becomes flexible and less black and white. God/Not God all becomes meaningless concepts in the mystery and the unexplainable phenomona.

 

The experiences of a Living, Conscious, Intelligent and Interactive universe are real, but our interpretation of them may be not!

And that is why there is little real magick in the world today,...for there is not much honesty.

 

Know god, no honesty; Gnow honesty, no god.

 

V

Your black and white world view is a great contributor to the worlds lack of honesty.

But don't worry about Magick in the world, Its alive and well. The Fraternities and Lodges are steadily improving the science that is Magick... Real Magick real results!

 

Seth!

Edited February 27, 2012 by Seth Ananda

[三江源]

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Edited October 2, 2015 by 三江源

[de_paradise]

A nice moist piece of cake, not sloppy wet. Dare I say, "magic"?

[Vmarco]

Blah blah blah, more Vmarco rubbish!

 

lol, how do you gnow this? did you meet them?

 

Seth!

 

If Seth had the slighest understanding of gnowledge, verses his knowledge, there would have been no emotional threat that necessitated his above diatribe.

 

know, v. knew, known, know-ing, knows; OE gecnawan, be able to; akin to L. gnovi. 1. to perceive directly through the senses; comprehend through the intellect (the 6th sense); psyche. 2. to have fixed in the intellect or memory, something as true. 3. to be acquainted with or have a practical understanding of, as through sensory experience; know how to cook. 4. to comprehend noologically; through thought/intellect.

 

gnow, v. gnew, gnown, gnow-ing, gnows; from Gk gnosis, understanding through Heart-Mind. 1. to understand directly through metasensory awareness (beyond the 6 senses); comprehend through the heart of essence or thymos. 2. to experience, without media-tion, something as true. 3. to be acquainted with or have gnostic understanding of, as through metasensory experience; to gnow love. 4. to comprehend ontosophically; through prajna/gnosis.

 

V

[Vmarco]

Hehe, more unexamined belief from Vmarco! So Buddhists are the only people capable of magick! How convenient! Seth!

 

Most Mahasiddha's were not Buddhist's. Tilopa, considered the founder of Kagyu Vajrayana Buddhism was not a Buddhist.

 

Of course your fragle reference point, through your accumulated knowledge, is understandingly upsetting. People like yourself find it difficult to accept that what they spent a lifetime accumulating as meaningful, is actually meaningless.

 

V

Edited February 27, 2012 by Vmarco

[Seth Ananda]

If Seth had the slighest understanding of gnowledge, verses his knowledge, there would have been no emotional threat that necessitated his above diatribe.

 

know, v. knew, known, know-ing, knows; OE gecnawan, be able to; akin to L. gnovi. 1. to perceive directly through the senses; comprehend through the intellect (the 6th sense); psyche. 2. to have fixed in the intellect or memory, something as true. 3. to be acquainted with or have a practical understanding of, as through sensory experience; know how to cook. 4. to comprehend noologically; through thought/intellect.

 

gnow, v. gnew, gnown, gnow-ing, gnows; from Gk gnosis, understanding through Heart-Mind. 1. to understand directly through metasensory awareness (beyond the 6 senses); comprehend through the heart of essence or thymos. 2. to experience, without media-tion, something as true. 3. to be acquainted with or have gnostic understanding of, as through metasensory experience; to gnow love. 4. to comprehend ontosophically; through prajna/gnosis.

 

V

 

Wow, thankyou for such an articulate reply!

Fortunately I don't need to be acquainted with the Gnowing you are talking about, or I might struggle with such a badly written description.

 

Less fortunate is the fact that you don't seem to be able to tell the difference between your Gnowing and the rest of the stuff in your head! {your prolific unexamined Beliefs}

[Seth Ananda]

 

 

Of course your fragil reference point, through your accumulated knowledge, is understandingly upsetting. People like yourself find it difficult to accept that what they spent a lifetime accumulating as meaningful, is actually meaningless.

 

V

Fragile? more like fluid, as I do not 'Believe' any theory or idea in my head with any certainty, hence I am chuckling once again at your posts, not feeling threatened....

What I do find annoying though is your black and white world view, and your fossilised belief structures, which you confuse for wisdom!

[Vmarco]

Fragile? more like fluid, as I do not 'Believe' any theory or idea in my head with any certainty, hence I am chuckling once again at your posts, not feeling threatened....

What I do find annoying though is your black and white world view, and your fossilised belief structures, which you confuse for wisdom!

 

Seth Ananda may seek wisdom, VMarco does not. Wisdom is an accumulation of knowledge that is palatable to ego,...and thus a barrier to gnowledge. Prajna is not wisdom. Wisdom is a Dark Ages word derived from an object-ive/separative view of reality.

 

You can squabble with the facts all you wish, and make them real for you, but that does not make them real. Simply review your original diatribe in this thread without predisposition, and even a moron can see you're quite upset with the comments on beliefs obscuring the Heart-Mind, through which anyone familiar with Mahamudra (as you profess to be) understands.

 

Just because you're annoyed with absolute truth, and that absolute truth is indeed black & white, does not make absolute truth not black & white,....there is no Present in time,...it's black & white. That the 6 senses can only recognize motion, thus separation, is black & white. Because you gnow nothing, you must deny the black & whiteness in order to support your knowledge.

 

From a gnowledge point of view, your delusions are fully understood. People like yourself rather kill the truth, if that truth (which all truth will) threaten their sentient, 6th sense world view.

 

To be honest, your profile interests should be refined to just "fun, in the context of Seth's belief system." Again,...if you had the slightest comprehension of Mahamudra, your ad homenim-like posts would not be here.

 

People's clinging to theistic beliefs for their reality is quite sad. And yet, any reasonably honest person can emancipate themselves from such a meme,...which illustrates the pervasive lack of honesty within today's humanity. Simply comprehend the 'What is Light' thread, and there is no doubt that a god cannot exist,...Light is proof that no god exists.

 

,..."it is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" J Krishnamurti

[三江源]

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Edited October 2, 2015 by 三江源

[Seth Ananda]

[三江源]

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Edited October 2, 2015 by 三江源

[Vmarco]

Edited February 27, 2012 by Vmarco