Does Magic Exist ?

[Tatsumaru]

mod message

 

Taunting reported

 

Please post mindfully and productively without personal jibes. If you are stuck in mutual disagreement, please admit so and move on.

 

Don't interfere please. The argument here, even though fierce is quite productive.

[Protector]

Don't interfere please. The argument here, even though fierce is quite productive.

 

It might seem like it but instead of words I hear only emotion

[Vmarco]

Edited February 27, 2012 by Vmarco

[Protector]

Before enlightenment carry water chop wood, after enlightenment carry water chop wood

Enlightenment is not the goal

[fallintounity]

well i always just sought the confidence to pick up chicks; the magic just came along telling me you aint ever getting there

[Seth Ananda]

one thing that stands out to me in our debates, is that i actually point out to you where you are wrong or clouded by beliefs, using your own words as an example.

 

You on the other hand, make grandiose statements about how I couldn't Gnow a thing if I tried, and How I am Imprisoned by the 6 senses, and hate Truth!

What gets funny is that you have not asked me any deeply Inquiring questions with your Totally Honest mind, to ascertain whether I am utterly free of Gnowing.

So again your observation is based on pure belief/nothing observable, and is just an emotional response based on me pointing out the False in you.

 

In fact, some of your replys read like an appeal to others, based on belief in an attempt to get others on side. That is very dishonest. You are accusing me of ... yet giving no credible examples. Thats the Kind of thing I would expect from a Christian Preacher, wait! They are Belief Monkeys and so are You!

 

Because I am making no assumptions, and am just showing you your own delusions, you are getting Angry.

You are showing yourself to be the kind of person who murdered Socrates. Lol he would have had a field day with you. He would read one sentence of yours, and see belief this, belief that...

You keep saying that this is also true about me, but you have not showed how. My response here is Inquiring into your posts and finding no gold, but plenty of Belief yet you say I have no Interest in Inquiry?

So I am pointing that out. Your appeals are based on nothing...

 

There is nothing inaccurate with the statement regarding Mahasiddha's.

on the contrary. you said:

a Mahasiddha practices magick by manipulating the space–time holographic reality; as distinguished from magic or slight-of-hand practiced by theist illusionists.

Nothing Inaccurate? You are an Intelligent guy, be honest for once. Here you denigrate the Practices and Characters of thousands of Magickians, who work within theistic systems, as being fraudulent tricksters. Magick is Magick mate. Buddhists, Tantrics, and Theistic traditions all practice energy practices, build the Will, and find ways of seeing the phenomenal world as Illusory...

Every tradition has its miracle workers/healers/sages despite what you believe.

In fact, if you read descriptions of the Wondrous works through history, the Mahasiddha's in no way come out on top as having more/better abilities. In fact they come across as pretty equal to the others. Multiple stories of being 2 or more places at once, levitating, healing, manifesting, raising the dead...

 

Because you're ignorant regarding what a Mahasiddha is, and how Heart-Mind cannot be accessed through conditions, including theist conditions, is painful for your 6 senses to accept, you blame me for your problem.

Heheh Beliefs again? How do you know these things I ask you? By the way I am a great fan of the Mahasiddhas, but you are not one. Mind too clouded with Beliefs.

How do you know:

1. What a mahasiddha is?

2. that your theorys cause my six senses pain?

 

Do you 'Gnow' this, or did you just make it up? Sounds like more of your beliefs to me, not your innate 'Gnowing'!

 

As was posted regarding the story of Tilopa and the fish,...even a child would understand that VMarco was not there.

And I am not a child Vmarco, and understand that you were not there. Why denigrate children to try to denigrate me? What I am pointing out is that you 'Believe' this story 'religiously' or without question. You have posted it numbers of times and even written about it in your book, as if it is absolute truth, and as if you understand how to do it, and can teach others how to do it. As you seem to think yourself equal to tilopa, please provide Youtube link and show me such a feat

 

However, it very well can be gnown, because time is one thing, like a radio receiver,...

Wait, The fish story is true and can be proved by Gnowing?

So you are really saying Just believe me!

Hey I have heard this kind of thing before, Hmm where was it, oh I remember, in Church!

"Skeptics attack the historical foundations of our religion, but Jesus can only be Gnown through the Heart" "We gnow he is real!"

 

and just because Seth ensnarls himself within a single single frequency or radio station, doesn't mean that all stations cannot be accessed,..although access is unlikely for the ignorant imprisoned within the 6 senses.

Now why would you say this? Considering your great passion for this subject, I am willing to allow that you have probably had great moments of Gnowing. Thats not what I am debating about your posts. What I am debating is all the other stuff you pile on top of it. So why do you feel a need to reduce me to a single frequency, just because you don't like the tone of my typing? Again, this statement is a belief driven statement about me, and in no way is accurate to the reality of the Seth.

 

Are you only comfortable/safe when someone who disagrees with you is TOTALLY wrong and Ignorant?

 

If so that is very sad, dishonest and utterly cowardly.

 

The story of Tilopa's fish is quite renowned within the Vajrayana community:

Therefore Its True!!! [belief alert!]

 

 

From your diatribal posts, obviously in an attempt to negate mine, there is not even a modicum of inquiry. You come off as a superior bitxh, which only highlights your ignorance.

Hmm I must be hitting a nerve?

My posts are not diatribe, they are Inquiry. I do not wish to negate your posts. There is that black and white thing again, whats with that? I only wish to negate the False in your posts. Outside of your dogmatism and the various unexamined belief structures you hold, there is some good stuff in your posts that I enjoy.

 

As was mentioned, you haven't a clue about the nature of gnowledge, and thus you attack everything that upsets your beliefs.

Really? How do you Gnow this? What is it based on? hehe: Beliefs again! Very defensive ones I might add

I have spent the last 2 decades seeking and finding ways to refine my ability to 'Gnow' and I use Gnowing on a day to day basis - Gnowing free from constructs, conditioning, learning, time and thought.

 

For those interested in this post however,...that is, those honest enough to inquire, rather than attack,...I refer you back to post #25 in this thread,...the quote highlighted is in reference to a group of Fractal Riders I hung out with 30 years ago. Time is one thing. You cannot honestly know it,...only gnow it.

So far The only dishonesty seen in this thread is yours. As I have shown.

I have not just said Vmarco is full of Beliefs, I have step by step shown it.

 

You on the other hand have done just the opposite. You 'say' seth is this, seth does that, and show none of it.

Even worse you purposely ignore the Important parts of a post to quible over some minor Issue, like whether Tilopa was a Buddhist or not, completely disregarding the points made...

Here is another great example of you saying a lot yet showing nothing:

Because Seth is imprisoned within the 6 senses, he will reject this out-of-hand. After all, those who know do not gnow.

It is a nonsense statement. Because I rejected some of your BS {belief system} in no way demonstrates that I am Imprisoned within the 6 senses.

 

All It demonstrates is how Insecure you are about your beliefs. Otherwise you would not need to wholesale demonize and reduce an opposing perspective with such a cheap tactic.

 

You hate Christians so Ill keep using them as I do think you are very Christian underneath it all. They felt that they were the only ones that were right, so they demonised everyone else {like you} and killed them. She is a Witch, Burn Her!

All based on Beliefs.

 

 

Imagine if they had taken the path of dialogue and debate to Investigate flaws and errors in their own or in others perspectives. {like me}

 

Have some Honesty, be willing to consider that there may be flaws in things you say, as i am about myself.

 

Seth.

[Vmarco]

one thing that stands out to me in our debates, is that i actually point out to you where you are wrong or clouded by beliefs, using your own words as an example.

 

You on the other hand, make grandiose statements about how I couldn't Gnow a thing if I tried, and How I am Imprisoned by the 6 senses, and hate Truth!

 

They are Belief Monkeys and so are You!

 

Heheh Beliefs again? How do you know these things I ask you? By the way I am a great fan of the Mahasiddhas, but you are not one. Mind too clouded with Beliefs.

How do you know:

1. What a mahasiddha is?

2. that your theorys cause my six senses pain?

 

 

Are you only comfortable/safe when someone who disagrees with you is TOTALLY wrong and Ignorant?

 

If so that is very sad, dishonest and utterly cowardly.

 

 

My posts are not diatribe, they are Inquiry. I do not wish to negate your posts. There is that black and white thing again, whats with that? I only wish to negate the False in your posts. Outside of your dogmatism and the various unexamined belief structures you hold, there is some good stuff in your posts that I enjoy.

 

I have spent the last 2 decades seeking and finding ways to refine my ability to 'Gnow' and I use Gnowing on a day to day basis - Gnowing free from constructs, conditioning, learning, time and thought.

 

So far The only dishonesty seen in this thread is yours. As I have shown.

I have not just said Vmarco is full of Beliefs, I have step by step shown it.

 

You on the other hand have done just the opposite. You 'say' seth is this, seth does that, and show none of it.

Even worse you purposely ignore the Important parts of a post to quible over some minor Issue, like whether Tilopa was a Buddhist or not, completely disregarding the points made...

Here is another great example of you saying a lot yet showing nothing:

 

It is a nonsense statement. Because I rejected some of your BS {belief system} in no way demonstrates that I am Imprisoned within the 6 senses.

 

Have some Honesty, be willing to consider that there may be flaws in things you say, as i am about myself.

 

Seth. Belief Monkey

 

 

There is an absolute consideration regarding flaws in things I write,...that is partially the motive for me writing them,...and also, to better the understand the flaws of your monkey beliefs.

 

The Hua Hu Ching suggests, "the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totallay fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go."

 

I've yet to see your "debate." I suggest that Mahasiddha's (most who were not Buddhists) work from Nine Magick Perfections. You say bunk,...because of your clinging to theistic beliefs.

 

None of the Nine Magick Perfections are be fully understood through the 6 sense delusion of a god,...but you (Seth) insist that you can in fact bring your beliefs and conditions into the Unconditional, and by Seth's will, the Unconditional will remain Unconditional.

 

Other than what you think, a real honest debate would include your reasoning of how your conditions, and those of theists you support, actually enter the Unconditionality of Heart Mind. You see, honesty in this case should be able to differentiate between magick as practiced through the Nine Magickal Perfections, and the magick of hollywood's media-ted cimena that reinforce cultural delusions.

 

"Let this monkey go. Let the senses go." Lao Tzu purportedly said. However, you fight to retain supremacy of the 6 senses, and the monkey mind that imagines them.

 

"All through the night in the cold the monkey squats scheming how to capture the moon." Or in this case, do ad homenim under the pretext of "debate."

 

I never said that "you couldn't Gnow a thing if you tried." This is what you do,...take my statements out of context, make some other stuff up, and present your diatribe about how VMarco is grandiose.

 

Let's be honest,...a Belief Monkey is a sentient being who clings to their 6 senses for their identity. While in nearly every post on TTB, I've stressed the need to go beyond belief, beyond god memes, beyond the 6 senses. And when I suggest inquiring beyond the 6 senses, Seth argues that's monkey belief. Seth says,

 

Seth argues that what Socrates really meant to say is that "The unexamined life is the only life worth living." Or that Plato never said, "Truth pertains to the timeless reality that generates everything in our world."

 

Your truth Seth is within time. That's how you hold your 6 sense reality together.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "there is nothing to teach, no religion, no science, no body of information which will lead your mind back to tao." While Buddha said, "Do not accept anything by mere tradition. . . Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. . . Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your preconceived notions." Buddha taught irreligion.

 

You (Seth) obviously need religion and a god. I suggest that such beliefs, all of which arise from the 6 senses, are obsticles that obscure Heart Mind.

 

Buddha said, "Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment." What post have I written on TTB that does not address that quote? Very, very few.

 

No matter what the topic,...be it magick, Light, or oxymorons,...my posts point to the letting go of everything that steps between a sentient being and their direct experience with the Now. Not the perceived now of the monkey minded,...but the actual Now.

 

I do not hate Christians, Muslims, Jews, or any sentient being as you infer through your fear of honesty. I am however, fully intolerant of Christianity or other god memes that step between sentient beings and their direct experience.

 

"The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear." J Krishnamurti

 

Unlike you, I consistently assert the letting go of beliefs.

 

"I regard monotheism as the greatest disaster ever to befall the human race. I see no good in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam." - Gore Vidal

 

So, hate me for being clear-minded enough to recognize delusion.

"Most men would kill the truth if truth would kill their [beliefs]." Lemuel K. Washburn

 

So your posts are nothing new. You are admired by perhaps 95% of the population.

 

"I could not in good conscience, vote for someone who honestly thinks that the other 95% of us (who believe in god) suffer from some sort of mass delusion." Palmer Joss (actor Matthew McConaughey)

 

That's the nature of your sentient world. You have zero interest in honesty, as your posts show. Nor any real debate. Your monkey beliefs are true,...and anyone who advocates the lessening and letting go of beliefs is your enemy, and enemy of all monkey minds, as described by Lao Tzu.

 

I believe no story, whether religiously or not. The story of Tilopa and the fish is an example of magick,...an example that if not realized to be true, in that it can occur, than Tilopa's Mahamudra, and Vajrayana Buddhism as a whole are disproved and invalid.

 

For example:

 

"It has often been said that anything may be proved from the Bible; but before anything can be admitted as proved by the Bible, the Bible itself must be proved to be true; for if the Bible be not true, or the truth of it be doubtful, it ceases to have authority and cannot be admitted as proof of anything." Thomas Paine

 

Jesus CANNOT be known through the Heart, because lies and beliefs do not arise from the Heart. Jesus is only KNOWN, never GNOWN. Of course, it is your belief. And you assume, because you operate out the prison of the 6 senses, that my saying that Jesus CANNOT be gnown through the Heart must be a belief.

 

http://www.thetaobum..._1entry309746

 

 

V

[Seth Ananda]

There is an absolute consideration regarding flaws in things I write,...that is partially the motive for me writing them,...and also, to better the understand the flaws of your monkey beliefs.

 

The Hua Hu Ching suggests, "the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totallay fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go."

 

I've yet to see your "debate." I suggest that Mahasiddha's (most who were not Buddhists) work from Nine Magick Perfections. You say bunk,...because of your clinging to theistic beliefs.

 

None of the Nine Magick Perfections are be fully understood through the 6 sense delusion of a god,...but you (Seth) insist that you can in fact bring your beliefs and conditions into the Unconditional, and by Seth's will, the Unconditional will remain Unconditional.

 

Other than what you think, a real honest debate would include your reasoning of how your conditions, and those of theists you support, actually enter the Unconditionality of Heart Mind. You see, honesty in this case should be able to differentiate between magick as practiced through the Nine Magickal Perfections, and the magick of hollywood's media-ted cimena that reinforce cultural delusions.

 

"Let this monkey go. Let the senses go." Lao Tzu purportedly said. However, you fight to retain supremacy of the 6 senses, and the monkey mind that imagines them.

 

"All through the night in the cold the monkey squats scheming how to capture the moon." Or in this case, do ad homenim under the pretext of "debate."

 

I never said that "you couldn't Gnow a thing if you tried." This is what you do,...take my statements out of context, make some other stuff up, and present your diatribe about how VMarco is grandiose.

 

Let's be honest,...a Belief Monkey is a sentient being who clings to their 6 senses for their identity. While in nearly every post on TTB, I've stressed the need to go beyond belief, beyond god memes, beyond the 6 senses. And when I suggest inquiring beyond the 6 senses, Seth argues that's monkey belief. Seth says,

 

Seth argues that what Socrates really meant to say is that "The unexamined life is the only life worth living." Or that Plato never said, "Truth pertains to the timeless reality that generates everything in our world."

 

Your truth Seth is within time. That's how you hold your 6 sense reality together.

 

Lao Tzu purportedly said, "there is nothing to teach, no religion, no science, no body of information which will lead your mind back to tao." While Buddha said, "Do not accept anything by mere tradition. . . Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. . . Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your preconceived notions." Buddha taught irreligion.

 

You (Seth) obviously need religion and a god. I suggest that such beliefs, all of which arise from the 6 senses, are obsticles that obscure Heart Mind.

 

Buddha said, "Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment." What post have I written on TTB that does not address that quote? Very, very few.

 

No matter what the topic,...be it magick, Light, or oxymorons,...my posts point to the letting go of everything that steps between a sentient being and their direct experience with the Now. Not the perceived now of the monkey minded,...but the actual Now.

 

I do not hate Christians, Muslems, Jews, or any sentient being as you infer through your fear of honesty. I am however, fully intolerant of Christianity or other god memes that step between sentient beings and their direct experience.

 

"The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear." J Krishnamurti

 

Unlike you, I consistently assret the letting go of beliefs.

 

"I regard monotheism as the greatest disaster ever to befall the human race. I see no good in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam." - Gore Vidal

 

So, hate me for being clear-minded enough to recognize delusion.

"Most men would kill the truth if truth would kill their [beliefs]." Lemuel K. Washburn

 

So your posts are nothing new. You are admired by perhaps 95% of the population.

 

"I could not in good conscience, vote for someone who honestly thinks that the other 95% of us (who believe in god) suffer from some sort of mass delusion." Palmer Joss (actor Matthew McConaughey)

 

That's the nature of your sentient world. You have zero interest in honesty, as your posts show. Nor any real debate. Your monkey beliefs are true,...and anyone who advocates the lessening and letting go of beliefs is your enemy, and enemy of all monkey minds, as described by Lao Tzu.

 

I believe no story, whether religiously or not. The story of Tilopa and the fish is an example of magick,...an example that if not realized to be true, in that it can occur, than Tilopa's Mahamudra, and Vajrayana Buddhism as a whole are disproved and invalid.

 

For example:

 

"It has often been said that anything may be proved from the Bible; but before anything can be admitted as proved by the Bible, the Bible itself must be proved to be true; for if the Bible be not true, or the truth of it be doubtful, it ceases to have authority and cannot be admitted as proof of anything." Thomas Paine

 

Jesus CANNOT be known through the Heart, because lies and beliefs do not arise from the Heart. Jesus is only KNOWN, never GNOWN. Of course, it is your belief. And you assume, because you operate out the prison of the 6 senses, that my saying that Jesus CANNOT be gnown through the Heart must be a belief.

 

http://www.thetaobum..._1entry309746

 

 

V

Lol, worst reply ever!

Why don't you go through my statements piece be piece and analyze and respond to them?

 

Instead you hide behind words while accusing me of Diatribe, when I am the one who is actually addressing you point for point!

 

Again you dishonestly say I do this or that, while providing no actual evidence.

 

For instance, when you said:

Seth argues that what Socrates really meant to say is that "The unexamined life is the only life worth living." Or that Plato never said, "Truth pertains to the timeless reality that generates everything in our world."

Your truth Seth is within time. That's how you hold your 6 sense reality together.

Lies Lies lies! Such Philosophical Cowardice! Where did I argue this?

You think you can just make up Lies, all the while pretending to be Honest?

You sir are a Liar. This is not an insult, as right here you are directly caught lying and slandering against me to win an argument! Despicable! I seriously thought more of you.

 

If there was any truth to your statement you would be able to give an example like this:

Seth argues that what Socrates really meant to say is that "The unexamined life is the only life worth living."

providing actual evidence from my written material...

Or that Plato never said, "Truth pertains to the timeless reality that generates everything in our world."

providing more evidence, not emotional reactive lying drivel

Your truth Seth is within time. That's how you hold your 6 sense reality together.

and with further actual evidence that my truth is within time, and that that is indeed how I hold my sense reality together...

 

Unfortunately It seems like you dont have an actual Inquiring or Honest bone in your body.

You are busy telling people what my truth is, yet you never even asked what my truth is?

Your dishonesty is of epic proportions!

How can you state my truth is like... when you have no Idea at all what my truth actually is? How can you Lie to yourself and others so blatantly?

 

Are you simply in love with your opinions? You give them freely on subjects you know nothing about. All because I challenge the BS in your writings?

 

Did you realize that in every Inference you have made as to what I believe or stand for, you have never even been close to right? How does that make you feel?

 

How does it feel to know that when you tell others what someone is Implying or saying, that you are actually blatantly Lying to both them and yourself?

 

I myself simply question, and point out errors, as the history of this thread shows. This itself reveals the sick and territorial belief machine that is running under your hood.

 

You would rather slander than have an uncomfortable debate, how sad.

[Seth Ananda]

And then this:

You have zero interest in honesty, as your posts show. Nor any real debate.

Really? Then why is nearly every point I made in my 2nd last post a question, a seeking for evidence and a demonstration of my unwillingness to Just Believe??? [this post was meant to be part of the previous one but was too long]

 

Someone seeking Honesty and Truth questions deeply, which is something you ask of others but are unwilling to do for yourself...

 

Your monkey beliefs are true,...

Lol which beliefs? Not even sure are you? You just wanted to chuck in another Insult without having to back up your statement...

 

...and anyone who advocates the lessening and letting go of beliefs is your enemy, and enemy of all monkey minds, as described by Lao Tzu.

 

Thats about as wrong as you can get. You advocate Dropping Beliefs in favor of another set - Yours/short path/tilopa's. I advocate dropping them entirely. No Vmarcoism, No Sethism, just deep questioning of presumption, biases and bigotries and coming to a place of being comfortable believing nothing nor being particularly anti anything either... [now you are getting closer to knowing what I actually stand for]

 

In my experience when one realizes that Beliefs are just that, 6th sense disturbances, mental irrelevant fluctuations, the mind becomes quieter, and something beyond, the Gnowing place {to use your spelling} is again or more easily accessible, and for me that is where the Magick starts. I have done many astonishing things from this place.

 

You on the other hand seem to out to wholesale sell and convert people to Vmarcoism!

 

More:

You say bunk,...because of your clinging to theistic beliefs.

:lol: Wrong!!! I have no Theistic Beliefs, but I also have no no Theistic Beliefs. I am actually free from the theistic concern.

 

None of the Nine Magick Perfections are be fully understood through the 6 sense delusion of a god,...but you (Seth) insist that you can in fact bring your beliefs and conditions into the Unconditional, and by Seth's will, the Unconditional will remain Unconditional.

Really, I insist that? News to me!

 

 

hmm, this:

I never said that "you couldn't Gnow a thing if you tried." This is what you do,...take my statements out of context, make some other stuff up, and present your diatribe about how VMarco is grandiose.

VS this from previously:

As was mentioned, you haven't a clue about the nature of gnowledge, and thus you attack everything that upsets your beliefs.

I guess one can see how I might have interpreted you writing a certain way

 

 

Anyway I am getting bored with you. If you would like to engage directly, inquiring step by step, not rushing out posts, not hiding behind cut and paste quotes, then I am happy to examine anything you have a problem with in my posts and comment in turn.

 

Or if you are over it as well and feel up for it, lets talk about Knowing, or Gnowing if you prefer and how that pertains to Magick...

 

Seth.

[fallintounity]

done. I no longer believe in the stuff. you guys win.

[Vmarco]

[dawei]

It might seem like it but instead of words I hear only emotion

When I first read this I agreed and would add "emotionally self-destructive"... by the end I would add " emotionally self-dillusional". Some posting is self-consuming... TO be clear, I find more favorable reading from Vmarco, although my vocabulary is obviously challenged and enriched by his posts. And I add a 'third' to Tibetan Magic ('Magic and Mystery in Tibet' by Alexandra David-Neel)... the two books changed a lot about my belief system. Thanks all.

Edited February 28, 2012 by dawei

[Seth Ananda]

Lol, thats not exactly starting small.

To understand carefully I am going to have to ask you lots of questions to make sure we are on the same page with the words we use...

 

I wouldn't say these back and forths are boring, but certainly exasperating and unfocused. You make a swarm of allegations, far more than I have time to respond to individually, which could take up a full page of TTB.

Stop using misdirection tactics. I have not made a 'swarm of allegations'. I have responded to your posts point by point with relevant questions and pointed out the layers of flawed thinking and dishonesty where necessary.

 

Anyway back to a more Interesting discussion.

So,...I accept your offer to discuss what is KNOWLEDGE verses GNOWLEDGE.

 

First, gnowledge does not arise from the lower 6 senses or consciousness'. Although some magick can be achieved without higher levels of spiritual development, the magick of Mahasiddhas, Naga, Bon shamans, etc., from all sources I've accessed in the last 37 years (which has been my full time occupation), there is an emphesis on transcending the 6 senses.

 

So far we are on the same page here. What methods do you use that you have found to be particularly effective for transcending the 6 consciousness's?

I am a fan of viewing everything as dream like appearance including the 6th...

Although in some ways for me, it has a little more cognizance involved in it, especially at first, compared to resting naturally which is one of my favorite practices. When I am really In Natural presence, then the world appears as a fresh, empty, magical display with no Interpretation going on whatsoever, and an amazing sense of wonder and joy accompanies it... In that space I don't have to sit there thinking "the world is empty dreamlike appearance"

 

Also could you speak to how you see Gnoledge as overlapping, effecting or informing the events/life in the sensory world? At least for the Gnower...?

Knowledge arises from the psyche, which many ancient cultures would discard at death, although treasuring the thymus. The thymus, that is the double-lobed, butterfly-shaped endocrine gland that overlaps the upper portion of the heart, was strengthened through shamatha practices, which acted as a rejuvenating nectar.

 

Although most contemporay translations describe thymos as spiritedness or breath of the soul, the word has a deeper meaning, that of Life Force. Modern philosophers have in fact devalued the thymos to better fit their sciential belief structures. Endocrinologists call the thymus is the holy grail of immunology; while in Socratic philosophy, the thymos was the point of connect with the higher mind, whereas the psyche or brain was viewed as the lower or insignificant mind, the opposite of today's object-ive viewpoint. The freethought magickian should see thymos in terms of the essence of a functioning thymus gland.

Groan! This is going to be hard... So many cultures have teachings around the soul/spirits division after death into two or more fragments. Could you describe exactly what you mean when you say Psyche, Soul, Spirit... Also when you talk about Thymos, what else is Implied other than the amazing gland itself

Through direct realization of emptiness,...thus an understanding of duality itself,...the Heart-Mind is accessed, and gnowledge is uncovered. Gnowledge is important for magick for several reasons, such as being in alignment with nature, which is improbable for someone with only knowledge.

Sure, but what reasons?

Could you give me your personal experience of Heart Mind? It may make it easier for me to be sure about what you are referring too. Some people use this term in slightly different ways...

Those desireous to understand absolute truth, by way of the magick perfections, treasure ways to uncover the Present. Knowledge cannot uncover the Present,...because all knowledge is in the past. There is absolutely no knowledge in the Present,...nor will there ever be.

That makes sense, but would you describe it further?

And could you describe the magick perfections? How do you go about with this for instance?

A person of knowledge follows knowledge,...whereas a person of gnowledge follows spirit without hesitation. A person of knowledge cannot follow Spirit, because Spirit only reveals itself through gnowledge.

lol, you are sounding dangerously close to the Theistic mystics, so could you unpack what you mean by following Spirit? How does spirit 'direct' in order that you may 'follow'? This is not at all meant as a trick question or a trap, I really would like to hear how you explain this. I have some theories but I want to hear yours first

Inscribed over the portico of the Temple at Delphi in Greece was written Gnothi Seauton—gnow thyself. To the Greeks, gnowledge or wisdom arose through the thymos, located near the physical heart, and associated with the thymus gland. The psyche, located in the gray-goo in the head, was considered of secondary importance. Some cultures like the Egyptian and Maya of Mesoamerica, thought so lowly of the brain, or sciential mind, that before burials it was sucked out and discarded, whereas the heart was treasured.

Sure. The Heart is often considered the true deep center of the mind in old cultures, with conceptual thought being distortion or ripples on the surface of the water...

Mahamudra is an instruction that facilitates gnowledge, the gnowledge of gnowing thyself. Repeat to yourself often, “Gnow thyself”...not know thyself. What is this self that should be understood? The so-called conscious self of the 6 senses is merely as the tip of the iceberg of who we are. Below it is a huge subconscious, and that subconscious is floating in the waters of the higher self, which is connected to the Collective Consciousness. Thus the freethought magickian is tapping into many levels of a single consciousness through Gnothi Seauton.

 

V

Tell me more if you please. what 'is' this higher self? What is it like when you experience it? When is it present for you and when not, or what do you find clouds it for you? How have you learned to be certain in distinguishing its 'voice' from the others? What practices have helped you uncover it?

 

Seth.

[三江源]

.

Edited October 2, 2015 by 三江源

[zerostao]

"If one believes "Before enlightenment carry water chop wood, After enlightenment carry water chop wood""

how can it be any other way?

magic can be be found in the most mundane of circumstances.

[Vmarco]

"If one believes "Before enlightenment carry water chop wood, After enlightenment carry water chop wood""

how can it be any other way?

magic can be be found in the most mundane of circumstances.

 

We can assume that Siddhartha, Tilopa, Amitabha, etc., "carried water, chopped wood" before uncovering their light,...but where does it imply that they "carried water, chopped wood" afterwards?

 

HH Dalai Lama carries water, chops wood, but by his own admission he is not enlightened, nor even understands real compassion. In fact, most people would not even recognize real compassion if they saw it.

 

"If I have any understanding of compassion..., it all comes from studying the Bodhicharyavatara" HH Dalai Lama

 

The Bodhicharyavatara comments, "The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is deared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible."

 

Let's put it this way,...if a Buddhist who carries water, chops wood before uncovering their light, and must carry water, chop wood following their enlightenment, then the whole of Buddhism must be disregarded as nonsense.

 

As mentioned, "Before enlightenment carry water chop wood, After enlightenment carry water chop wood" is a great line for those who have no comprehension of real enlightenment,...lets say, the enlightenment described in Chapter 6 of the Shurangama sutra, or the enlightenment uncover from understanding Tilopa's Mahamudra.

the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible."

The quote, "Before enlightenment carry water chop wood, After enlightenment carry water chop wood" is fully ridiculous. And those teachers who espouse that idea are equally ridiculous. Enlightenment is not another level of mundane experience. And please, don't take my word for it,...follow the instruction,..."without the direct realization of Emptiness, compassion is impossible."

 

Talk to someone who fully understands how, why, and when Form is Empty, and Empty is Form, and see if they agree "Before enlightenment carry water chop wood, After enlightenment carry water chop wood." Or better yet, realize the nature of the emptiness of the phenomena water and wood for yourself.

 

V

[Cameron]

I don't practice Zen anymore but one of my favorite sayings from Master Dogen. Dogen returned to Japan, he said, "I have come back empty-handed. I have realized only that the eyes are horizontal and the nose is vertical." From this empty clarity came the great Soto sect.

[Mokona]

What is your definition of magic?

 

Being skilled in energy work makes connecting to symbols really easy, the energy and sometimes spirits behind it. It can seem magical when someone contacts a Goetica spirit, but it's just something that developes with alot of energy work.

[Seth Ananda]

Adding a big 4th for the Alexandra David-Neel book.

 

I trust Alan Chapman too and his book Advanced Magick for Beginners is very amusing and accurate.

Hehe, If you like him, you may also like Ramsey Dukes, he is my favorite author in the Chaos current, although less practical and more philosophical, but very very funny.

SSOTBME and Blast are just great...

I still really like the chaos current and most of its authors...

[Ulises]

Best revision to decades of pompous Victorian megalomania:

With It" Magic

 

A few years back I was a presenter at a conference on the Western Magical Tradition held at the Findhorn Foundation Community in northern Scotland. Both practitioners and scholars of various forms of magic came from all over Europe and North America to attend. Like so many conferences in which there are more speakers than anyone knows quite what to do with, the afternoons were taken up with panels in which five or six presenters are jammed together and given a few nanoseconds each to present the breadth and depth of their knowledge before being exposed to questions. As you can tell, though I've both been on and seen some very good panels, I'm not fond of the form.

 

At this conference, one afternoon panel provided a bit of unexpected drama, though I imagine not in a way the organizers appreciated. It was a panel for which the theme was "What is magic?" As I recall, there were four or five panelists, and the first speaker was a man who had written a beginner's book on magic and spirituality. His definition was that magic was very simple, a kind of "playing with energies" that everyone could do. This went uncontested until the last panelist had his turn to speak. He was a well-known and respected author of many books on magic, as well as a competent practitioner. He had been quite visibly restraining himself from saying something until his turn came, but then he practically leaped out of his chair in agitation and said, "Magic most certainly is NOT playing with energies!" Then, shaking his finger at the first panelist, he proceeded to verbally demolish him, stating that magic was anything but simple, and that it was a deep and profound discipline that was not for everyone. He let it be known in no uncertain terms that his fellow panelist had no business speaking in this conference if he was going to spout drivel. This in turn led to a shouting match between the two which eventually led to the organizers' coming on stage and shutting the whole thing down.

 

I hadn't realized till then how much fun a conference of magicians could be!

 

I have to admit, though, that even after that, the definition of magic remains elusive to me. The word magic is used loosely in a number of different ways and contexts, from the excitement and wonder of a romantic evening to stage illusions to the profound spiritual disciplines of alchemy and hermeticism. If I say I'm a magician, then just exactly how am I describing myself? What really is magic? Perhaps behind the disciplines and the rituals, the techniques and procedures, it does come down to a play of energies innate in all of us, though now I might think twice before saying so on a panel!

 

 

 

 

I once had a conversation with a non-physical being to whom I asked this question of the nature of magic. He seemed puzzled and asked me what I was talking about. So I explained to him what I had in mind and he said, "Oh, you mean life!" Another being was more helpful, but only just. "When you pick up a glass of water," he said, "for you it's simply an act of will. You wish the water and your body responds by picking up the glass. It seems instantaneous to you. But at the level of your cells, a great deal more goes on in the form of energy exchanges and molecular alterations, all of which you don't experience. What you call magic, with your rituals and correspondences, is to us equivalent to these molecular activities at a cellular level whereas what we call magic--the magic of the soul, if you wish--is like the direct experience of will and its consequences. We will and it is done."

 

Nice trick when you can do it.

 

At the heart of what this being was saying was relationship between two states for which will was a bridge. In his case, the bridge was direct, but in our case, the relationship or connections needed to be built up between ourselves and the object of the magic, hence the use of ritual or correspondences. The image was like the difference between teleporting directly between San Francisco and New York on the one hand and traveling from one city to the other through a series of connecting railway links. His point was that as we were able to form deeper and better connections or relationships, our magic would change. It was a matter of the wholeness in us matching the wholeness of the cosmos.

 

Thinking of magic as relationship and connection has been helpful to me, more helpful than thinking of it as ritual or alchemical processes on the one hand or playing with energies on the other. More precisely, it gives me a starting point in thinking about magic and the making of magic. I can think of it, for instance, not simply as the use of the will to produce effects in the world but as the forming of relationships or connections co-creatively with the world that have consequences, hopefully desired ones.

 

Why is this important? Because I believe as human beings we need to move to a partnership model of our relationship with the rest of creation, not simply for moral or spiritual reasons but because it works better. It is closer to the truth of things. If I think of magic as the projection and imposition of my will upon the world, whether through the astral light or the etheric plane or some other intermediate dimension, I am acting as a separate agent. I am not really engaging the world. I am acting upon it but not with it. I am making links through correspondences and rituals, but I am not making wholeness. I am not participating. In the end, whatever the success of my magical operation, the world and I remain separate. We remain strangers to each other.

 

Whatever magic is or can become, I believe it calls us to be not just in the world, or even less to have power over the world, but to be with the world in spirit and in wholeness. It is a "with-it" magic.

~David Spangler

 

***

 

"Environmental magic":

 

"...the traditional concepts of Faery and UnderWorld magic are reassessed for the 21st century, wherein Earth Healing is the task before all members of the Threefold Alliance of Human, Faery, and Living Creature"

 

http://www.rjstewart.net/well-of-light.htm

 

 

"The Sphere of Art is the result of a lifetime of dedicated sacromagical work in the Western esoteric spiritual traditions."

 

http://www.rjstewart.net/the-sphere-of-art-II.htm

Edited February 29, 2012 by Ulises

[Birch]

This made me think of the kidnapping of magic. I also wonder who's will exactly is operating to create such imbalance in the worlds?

 

---sorry, that just sort of spoke itself---

[Cat Pillar]

Perhaps the first speaker's magic worked pretty well after all. If that ubermagician was truly in command of his magic powers, he wouldn't have let a newbie energetically ruffle his feathers like that.

 

I have a hard time understanding disagreements like that between magicians. I guess the gloss of surface appearances really is that attractive? One would think a magician of all people could see the connections beneath the surface.

[robaire]

I am editing my entire post here as it is not in keeping with my current focus.

 

also I'm going to post stuff later re- "the Watchers" in relation to "gulf of Aden activities" ..... this is something worth checking. it helps explain some long standing indoctrinations (ie: spells) that have plagued the human culture for far too long.

Edited March 8, 2012 by robaire

[zerostao]

"Let's put it this way,...if a Buddhist who carries water, chops wood before uncovering their light, and must carry water, chop wood following their enlightenment, then the whole of Buddhism must be disregarded as nonsense."

so you convince someone else to do your chores for you?

i prefer to do my own. it is part of my self reliant idea

[Vmarco]