Observing without judgement.

[Informer]

I realized that throughout the day there are many instances where events are beings observed and a judgement is immediately formed about the event. Once a judgement is formed, a bias is created when observing the rest of the event. So by making a judgement you are effectively choosing a side. Neutral is said to be without bias, yet when in practice it may make you appear to be "cold and distant" or a "hermit".

 

Truly neutral is a rare perspective many seek, yet are unable to fathom. The reason for an unfathomable perspective stem from the misunderstanding of what seeking really means, what knowing really means.

 

Neutral does not mean without love by any means, in fact it is the only way to be able to love everyone and everything fully. Neutral does not mean being a push over, it means you can love someone regardless of what choices or actions you choose in relation to another observable perspective.

 

So what is seeking and what is knowing?

[Informer]

Within exists the potential for many universes, upon choosing we are choosing which universe will prevail.

[suninmyeyes]

I realized that throughout the day there are many instances where events are beings observed and a judgement is immediately formed about the event. Once a judgement is formed, a bias is created when observing the rest of the event. So by making a judgement you are effectively choosing a side. Neutral is said to be without bias, yet when in practice it may make you appear to be "cold and distant" or a "hermit".

 

Truly neutral is a rare perspective many seek, yet are unable to fathom. The reason for an unfathomable perspective stem from the misunderstanding of what seeking really means, what knowing really means.

 

Neutral does not mean without love by any means, in fact it is the only way to be able to love everyone and everything fully. Neutral does not mean being a push over, it means you can love someone regardless of what choices or actions you choose in relation to another observable perspective.

 

So what is seeking and what is knowing?

Hello Informer,

I would say that it is most important to be natural and not neutral. As neutral is not always what the situation may call for and therefore can be inaproriate.

Appropriate could mean many things for many people in various circumstances.

Yet it is important to consider what is appropriate on the larger scale as well(immediate circumstances or socially).

The trick of the game seems to be being inwardly unmoved and outwardly behaving apropraitley as the situation arises -

Sometimes it is appropriate to cry with a friend, sometimes to scorn a child becouse she may fall down the stairs, sometimes show anger towards the partner as otherwise they just wouldnt get a message well enough , sometimes not react becouse if we do we may piss that person off in that particular situation , sometimes laugh with a complete starnger becouse of no particular reason..and so on.

Being inwardly detached, fresh and comfortable and not being blown away by every little psychic wind is important.

Opening our being wide inwardly to accomodate everything :

hurricanes , wars , laughter, annoying bosses, bycicle thieves and flat tyres, a women clipping her nails on the bus sitting next to me the other day, loved ones, spring in the air, rapists and murderers, saints, social injustice ...etc.

But act appropriatley .Keeping in mind that although everyone has an equally important role to play in life be it a hero or a villan it does not mean that if someone slaps our cheek that we shouldnt slap back or run away according to situation and personal agenda.

That is knowing for me.

[Marblehead]

Interesting topic for me.

 

Yes, I oftentimes speak of viewing the universe objectively. And I do that often, and of those times it is a natural event and not just something I am telling myself that I should do.

 

But then, I have never tried to hide that fact that I am subjective when I feel I need be. This can be readily observed in my daily life. I have my value judgements and I try to stay true to my values.

 

So yes, I would agree that there are times when it is possible to be totally objective but there are times when we must be subjective in order to preserve ourself and our selected way of life.

[Informer]

Hello Informer,

I would say that it is most important to be natural and not neutral. As neutral is not always what the situation may call for and therefore can be inaproriate.

Appropriate could mean many things for many people in various circumstances.

Yet it is important to consider what is appropriate on the larger scale as well(immediate circumstances or socially).

The trick of the game seems to be being inwardly unmoved and outwardly behaving apropraitley as the situation arises -

Sometimes it is appropriate to cry with a friend, sometimes to scorn a child becouse she may fall down the stairs, sometimes show anger towards the partner as otherwise they just wouldnt get a message well enough , sometimes not react becouse if we do we may piss that person off in that particular situation , sometimes laugh with a complete starnger becouse of no particular reason..and so on.

Being inwardly detached, fresh and comfortable and not being blown away by every little psychic wind is important.

Opening our being wide inwardly to accomodate everything :

hurricanes , wars , laughter, annoying bosses, bycicle thieves and flat tyres, a women clipping her nails on the bus sitting next to me the other day, loved ones, spring in the air, rapists and murderers, saints, social injustice ...etc.

But act appropriatley .Keeping in mind that although everyone has an equally important role to play in life be it a hero or a villan it does not mean that if someone slaps our cheek that we shouldnt slap back or run away according to situation and personal agenda.

That is knowing for me.

 

I think obvious misconception. Neutrality is first achieved to determine anything true about anything or nothing. Then there is an after the fact where things are obviously not as they had appeared to be. Yet it remains that neutrality is an important aspect in spiritual progress. It teaches one how to be an observer, rather than a critique.

[Informer]

From neutrality stems an innate ability to switch perspectives.

[dwai]

I realized that throughout the day there are many instances where events are beings observed and a judgement is immediately formed about the event. Once a judgement is formed, a bias is created when observing the rest of the event. So by making a judgement you are effectively choosing a side. Neutral is said to be without bias, yet when in practice it may make you appear to be "cold and distant" or a "hermit".

 

Truly neutral is a rare perspective many seek, yet are unable to fathom. The reason for an unfathomable perspective stem from the misunderstanding of what seeking really means, what knowing really means.

 

Neutral does not mean without love by any means, in fact it is the only way to be able to love everyone and everything fully. Neutral does not mean being a push over, it means you can love someone regardless of what choices or actions you choose in relation to another observable perspective.

 

So what is seeking and what is knowing?

 

It is easier to maintain neutrality if something is not affecting you. If it affects you positively, you automatically begin to like it. If it affects you negatively, you automatically begin to dislike it. That is the crux of evolution and survival.

 

Take for example the early man. If he went off in the jungle and merely observed a tiger...odds are he would get mauled by it. Then, if he did survive, he would dislike or fear it. Similarly, if he ate honey he would like it. If he ate too much of it and got a stomach upset, maybe he would dislike it. If he didn't form a value judgement about the tiger (and tigers in general), very soon he would get killed and become tiger-feed. And as humans learn by transmission through the generations, the fact that tigers are dangerous and must be avoided become part of the education being transmitted down (to this day). If not, there would be no humans left in areas populated by tigers. Same is true for every phenomenon encountered by human beings...without a value judgement, without ascribing a weightage in terms of risk or benefit (towards survival), we would not exist today.

 

So, the innate nature of humans is to be biased and is a legacy of evolution.

 

 

It is easy to take a neutral stance when you are merely observing and not making value-judgements. You are right, it is very difficult for people to accept that...

 

It's like in meditation...when your witness mind is observing thoughts, they must be neutral and unbiased. But that is the challenge of meditation, to allow the witness to stay neutral...

[Informer]

Then realize what you choose to affect you and be done with it.

[dwai]

Then realize what you choose to affect you and be done with it.

 

Even then you are making a "biased" value judgement.

Because by choosing to not let something affect you, you are ascribing it a value. You are no longer neutral...

 

Take this situation hypothetically --

 

You see a speeding car moving towards you. Would you "choose" to stay neutral or step out of the way realizing that being impacted by the speeding car would be undesirable for your well being?

Edited February 24, 2012 by dwai

[suninmyeyes]

I think obvious misconception. Neutrality is first achieved to determine anything true about anything or nothing. Then there is an after the fact where things are obviously not as they had appeared to be. Yet it remains that neutrality is an important aspect in spiritual progress. It teaches one how to be an observer, rather than a critique.

OK try and live a neutral life constantly and see how you feel about it long term. Seriously .

I know that I went through a phase years ago where I thought that I should be neutral and have blossomed into a real stupid ass. I still am a stupid ass sometimes, just less often nowdays. (If someone needs how to be stupid ass tutorials do let me know.)

Neutral is good if one is diplomat by profession or in certain circumstances. Otherwise it is easy to become like a very dry stick that breaks easily.

However acting instead of reacting , being aware/switched on inwardley while going about daily life brings much needed restorative freshness.

As mentioned in previous post:

Being inwardly detached, fresh and comfortable and not being blown away by every little psychic wind is important.

Edited February 24, 2012 by suninmyeyes

[Informer]

OK try and live a neutral life constantly and see how you feel about it long term. Seriously .

I know that I went through a phase years ago where I thought that I should be neutral and have blossomed into a real stupid ass. I still am a stupid ass sometimes, just less often nowdays. (If someone needs how to be stupid ass tutorials do let me know.)

Neutral is good if one is diplomat by profession or in certain circumstances. Otherwise it is easy to become like a very dry stick that breaks easily.

However acting instead of reacting , being aware/switched on inwardley while going about daily life brings much needed restorative freshness.

 

The error is imposing anything on neutrality. Or love. Or any other aspect of actuality.

[dwai]

OK try and live a neutral life constantly and see how you feel about it long term. Seriously .

I know that I went through a phase years ago where I thought that I should be neutral and have blossomed into a real stupid ass. I still am a stupid ass sometimes, just less often nowdays. (If someone needs how to be stupid ass tutorials do let me know.)

Neutral is good if one is diplomat by profession or in certain circumstances. Otherwise it is easy to become like a very dry stick that breaks easily.

However acting instead of reacting , being aware/switched on inwardley while going about daily life brings much needed restorative freshness.

 

that is a more pragmatic approach...and very daoist of you, if I may say so...

[Informer]

Is neutrality not an aspect of an awakened awareness?

 

All your hope is but desires in disguise. Justified desires.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Informer

[suninmyeyes]

that is a more pragmatic approach...and very daoist of you, if I may say so...

Learning to juggle work and spiritual practise made (forced) me that way.

Although I know of daoism only what I read from the bums.

[suninmyeyes]

The error is imposing anything on neutrality. Or love. Or any other aspect of actuality.

How about thinking that there could be an error imposed on neutrality than?

You see if in this case neytrality needs to be more natural, otherwise it is some sort of contraction - a fake neutrality.

[suninmyeyes]

Interesting topic for me.

 

Yes, I oftentimes speak of viewing the universe objectively. And I do that often, and of those times it is a natural event and not just something I am telling myself that I should do.

 

But then, I have never tried to hide that fact that I am subjective when I feel I need be. This can be readily observed in my daily life. and I have my value judgements I try to stay true to my values.

 

So yes, I would agree that there are times when it is possible to be totally objective but there are times when we must be subjective in order to preserve ourself and our selected way of life.

What value judgments Marbs are you talking of specificaly here? Is there any room for change, moving on , adoptability or? Just curious to hear your answer about this.

Edited February 24, 2012 by suninmyeyes

[Marblehead]

Although I know of daoism only what I read from the bums.

 

Oh, you are doing very well at being a Taoist. Trust me on this one.

 

(Of course, my observations are based only on what you say here on this board.)

[Informer]

How about thinking that there could be an error imposed on neutrality than?

You see if in this case neytrality needs to be more natural, otherwise it is some sort of contraction - a fake neutrality.

 

 

It sounds like you are saying that "Neutrality is not natural" ?

[suninmyeyes]

It sounds like you are saying that "Neutrality is not natural" ?

No. Even fake neutrality is natural, but when I said to make neutral more natural - in this context it meant - less forced , more relaxed, definetley not contrived and certanly flowing . Havent employed clear language prehapes.

Have fun or shall I say have neutral time being neutral.

[humbleone]

Learning to juggle work and spiritual practise made (forced) me that way.

 

 

good topic and discussion.

 

could you please elaborate on your above statement?

 

do you see a difference in 'observing without judgement' in work vs personal life. at work it seems there are outside rules imposed by the employer. we are all told to act 'professional'

 

in personal life its all about past experiences, emotions, ego, past drama.

[RyanO]

From my practice with the Inner Smile, I have experienced that when one observes something with true neutrality, without judgment, this is unconditional love, because attention is love.

 

Neutral is the vibrant harmony of yin and yang.

Edited February 25, 2012 by RyanO

[Marblehead]

Neutral is the vibrant harmony of yin and yang.

I like that.

[idiot_stimpy]

Can I ask you.

 

Can you judge something when you see something without thinking?

 

When there is no thoughts, can there be any judgement on things?

 

When there is no thoughts, can there be any labels attached to things that can be judged?

[konchog uma]

From my practice with the Inner Smile, I have experienced that when one observes something with true neutrality, without judgment, this is unconditional love, because attention is love.

 

Neutral is the vibrant harmony of yin and yang.

 

that is a really wonderful way of saying things! I kept looking for words because i love neutrality and cutting through discursive thought of all kinds, but you summed it up just right... really nice

 

i would only add to this thread that when you make positive/negative responses of any kind, including value judgements, you are inventing that. Reality is not important until you invent the importance, and doesn't warrant any particular reaction until we invent that reaction. If a car is coming and i choose to get run down, that is fine. I will be back. Or i will go where my karma takes me. It doesn't matter, unless i choose to react positively or negatively and believe in the reality of that reaction. furthermore, if my mind is not caught up in the mechanism of a +/- reaction, my body has that abundance of energy which is free of the process of reaction and is free to move my legs out of the car's way, or any other part of me to accomplish what is really my deep heart's intention. But judgement is not a prerequisite for appropriate action.

[Informer]

Can I ask you.

 

Can you judge something when you see something without thinking?

 

When there is no thoughts, can there be any judgement on things?

 

When there is no thoughts, can there be any labels attached to things that can be judged?

 

That is good jconnars. I think you probably know the answers, meditation does guide toward neutrality imo. The thing is that most people don't spend the day in meditation. The intention was more in regards to the likes of Social Interactions. It is basically mindfulness, realizing that you are choosing, not only in meditation but throughout life.

 

There can be thoughts without judgement, then thoughts are closer to observations.

 

Like dedicating one hour a day to meditation Vs using all the waking hours for it.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Informer