Observing without judgement.

[dwai]

that is a really wonderful way of saying things! I kept looking for words because i love neutrality and cutting through discursive thought of all kinds, but you summed it up just right... really nice

 

i would only add to this thread that when you make positive/negative responses of any kind, including value judgements, you are inventing that. Reality is not important until you invent the importance, and doesn't warrant any particular reaction until we invent that reaction. If a car is coming and i choose to get run down, that is fine. I will be back. Or i will go where my karma takes me. It doesn't matter, unless i choose to react positively or negatively and believe in the reality of that reaction. furthermore, if my mind is not caught up in the mechanism of a +/- reaction, my body has that abundance of energy which is free of the process of reaction and is free to move my legs out of the car's way, or any other part of me to accomplish what is really my deep heart's intention. But judgement is not a prerequisite for appropriate action.

 

Indeed, ut it is necessary for conscious action. There are things one shoud strive to be neutral towards, while other things one has to orm judgement about. Eg. Someone cuts you off in the line to the grocery reister. Your immediate response might be to sock him in the face...your jdgement tells you tht it is not a good idea to do so...think of what im saying here. Neutrality is very important, but not in every situation.

[三江源]

 

i would only add to this thread that when you make positive/negative responses of any kind, including value judgements, you are inventing that.

 

For me, there is always a little free space in between receiving and responding, it is like the space between breaths. In that space there is a consultation, review, and choice made.

 

So I agree. To maintain neutrality is a choice. To take a stance is a choice from a menu. Which choice you take is interesting, depending on any number of variables re. what you wish to achieve. This sounds 'cold and calculating' but actually it is how to consciously function.

 

What I find curious about this type of space and decision is when it happens - I'm going to give a specific example which has happened to me a number of times and I have puzzled over - that I look at a glass of liquid in front of me and I know if I make the logical continuation of my physical movement, I will knock the glass over. And then I proceed to knock the glass over.

 

Perhaps this is a matter of the awareness being faster than the ability of the body to change course of movement. However, it feels to me like something else.. some teaching about cause/effect and inevitability, and the nature of awareness.

 

Because awareness does not equate to control.

[humbleone]

Eg. Someone cuts you off in the line to the grocery reister. Your immediate response might be to sock him in the face...your jdgement tells you tht it is not a good idea to do so...think of what im saying here. Neutrality is very important, but not in every situation.

 

good example.

 

so there is EVENT-->INTERNAL RESPONSE--->ACTION

 

INTERNAL RESPONSE is highly dependent upon Values, past experiences, emotional state etc

 

so the resulting ACTION, in the example above, one could 'sock him in face' or say something rude or funny or polite or just stay quite.

 

I think this is where buddhist meditation of letting thoughts come and go without labels shines.

 

The correct action imho would be to stay quite, a high level being would even help the person who cut you off unload the groceries.

 

I have difficulty with this, I don't think this is 'Observing without judegment' but 'observing with X?'.

[Informer]

Haha, I would be assertive and explain the events to the participants, depending on the situation.

 

It's relative, maybe in one instance you would want to say something, in another you may not.

 

I think violence should only be considered in defense, when all other means have been exhausted. I wouldn't choose violence on anyone and expect the same.

 

I think some people can tell when another chooses violence, and are simply waiting for the action.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Informer

[dwai]

good example.

 

so there is EVENT-->INTERNAL RESPONSE--->ACTION

 

INTERNAL RESPONSE is highly dependent upon Values, past experiences, emotional state etc

 

so the resulting ACTION, in the example above, one could 'sock him in face' or say something rude or funny or polite or just stay quite.

 

I think this is where buddhist meditation of letting thoughts come and go without labels shines.

 

The correct action imho would be to stay quite, a high level being would even help the person who cut you off unload the groceries.

 

I have difficulty with this, I don't think this is 'Observing without judegment' but 'observing with X?'.

This awareness of onesinternal ialog is very essential for an individual to mature into an adult...really there are many "adults" with the eq of a 5 year old. My observations ave led me to believe tht tis is the case because they dont have the ability to access their witness mind in day to day life.

 

One person very close To me had this problem both at work and at home. This peron could not filter ords coming of her mouth...her words wld be immediate and in reaction to triggers.

 

When i explained to her how one could become awre of the thoughts before tey re acted out, she didnt believe me at first. But left to mull it over, she realized it was true. Now she is more successful in maintaining harmony in her life...

[konchog uma]

Indeed, ut it is necessary for conscious action. There are things one shoud strive to be neutral towards, while other things one has to orm judgement about. Eg. Someone cuts you off in the line to the grocery reister. Your immediate response might be to sock him in the face...your jdgement tells you tht it is not a good idea to do so...think of what im saying here. Neutrality is very important, but not in every situation.

 

in my case, it isn't what i would call a judgement that tells me that punching someone in the face is not good to do. Knowledge, again in my case, is not always a discursive thing or a thing that goes along with positive/negative judgements, ie value judgements. There may be a layer of that at play, and that may be the layer many people operate from, and maybe those people aren't in tune with their inner, silent knowledge. But that doesn't mean its not there. And that knowledge exists, to me, without the interplay of positive and negative, and the internal rhetoric that go into making judgements. In other words, i just know its not good to punch people, somewhere deep in my bones, and i don't have to go through the process of judgement in that situation. I think that this listening to the bones is largely where true spontaneity arises, when we cease to think, and just act. For some people this means punching someone, for some people, this means smiling, for some people this means absolutely nothing, they don't care about getting cut off in line. They probably aren't in a hurry anyway .

 

But i seek to differentiate between the layer of consciousness which is comparative and judgmental, seperated from the situation by the illusion of self and other, and the deeper layer, which just knows immediately, because it is one with the situation, which would be the best way to act.

[Informer]

There are other ways to decide things besides the brain

[Marblehead]

There are other ways to decide things besides the brain

 

Absolutely true statement.

[fallintounity]

It's best to observe; but condition that observation with the correct ideals in hand.

 

Being unable to discern right from wrong is 'wrong'. You're of the mentality which defies what it is to reason.

 

learning for yourself so that you can 'learn' others without necessarily 'learning' them outright, is to lead the field, at that point you begin to fly plains- though learning them outright is part the process- but both can be done.

 

 

With neutrality; it can only go so far. Inaction, or not acting for the improvement of circumstances where it is possible, makes you complicit with the going-ons which you take aversion to--- haha, which makes you non neutral, hopefully-- if you have no aversion to 'it' (life in its current state*)at all; well, then your just inept.

 

(*meaning for the welfare of others- improvement of this awful place- not internally- thats fine--haha)(just keep reasoning out to the cause and seek to x it out)

 

So you either work and seek to improve life overall-- or you fall into the evil of complying with, and propogating confusion and pain; which 'hint' is the result of complying outright with the current system, which leaves many-- whom don't know what life could truly be, to never find their happiness-

 

This is an especially dark hour in our history, perhaps the darkest; though light shines for people, circumstance has cast shadows-- its quite awful--

 

 

Anyway, don't rent an avis, ever.

Edited February 27, 2012 by fallintounity

[三江源]

There are other ways to decide things besides the brain

 

Absolutely, and to assume that those ways are 'neutral' is is a big assumption for which I can see no basis.

[三江源]

It's best to observe; but condition that observation with the correct ideals in hand.

 

Being unable to discern right from wrong is 'wrong'. You're of the mentality which defies what it is to reason.

 

learning for yourself so that you can 'learn' others without necessarily 'learning' them outright, is to lead the field, at that point you begin to fly plains- though learning them outright is part the process- but both can be done.

 

 

With neutrality; it can only go so far. Inaction, or not acting for the improvement of circumstances where it is possible, makes you complicit with the going-ons which you take aversion to--- haha, which makes you non neutral, hopefully-- if you have no aversion to 'it' (life in its current state*)at all; well, then your just inept.

 

(*meaning for the welfare of others- improvement of this awful place- not internally- thats fine--haha)(just keep reasoning out to the cause and seek to x it out)

 

So you either work and seek to improve life overall-- or you fall into the evil of complying with, and propogating confusion and pain; which 'hint' is the result of complying outright with the current system, which leaves many-- whom don't know what life could truly be, to never find their happiness-

 

This is an especially dark hour in our history, perhaps the darkest; though light shines for people, circumstance has cast shadows-- its quite awful--

 

 

Anyway, don't rent an avis, ever.

 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

 

( Which is why we must boycott Avis.)

[idiot_stimpy]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

 

( Which is why we must boycott Avis.)

 

 

But how do we know what is evil? We must judge something that it is evil.

 

But how do we know to judge something that is evil.

 

We must have a belief attached of what is evil.

 

And so the distortion happens.

[dwai]

in my case, it isn't what i would call a judgement that tells me that punching someone in the face is not good to do. Knowledge, again in my case, is not always a discursive thing or a thing that goes along with positive/negative judgements, ie value judgements. There may be a layer of that at play, and that may be the layer many people operate from, and maybe those people aren't in tune with their inner, silent knowledge. But that doesn't mean its not there. And that knowledge exists, to me, without the interplay of positive and negative, and the internal rhetoric that go into making judgements. In other words, i just know its not good to punch people, somewhere deep in my bones, and i don't have to go through the process of judgement in that situation. I think that this listening to the bones is largely where true spontaneity arises, when we cease to think, and just act. For some people this means punching someone, for some people, this means smiling, for some people this means absolutely nothing, they don't care about getting cut off in line. They probably aren't in a hurry anyway .

 

But i seek to differentiate between the layer of consciousness which is comparative and judgmental, seperated from the situation by the illusion of self and other, and the deeper layer, which just knows immediately, because it is one with the situation, which would be the best way to act.

Of course....the pnching analogy was merely a rhetoricl tool. You might want to read the discusion in the being different thread. The "oneness" bogey is best used selectively or we run the risk of burying our heads in the proverbial sand...

 

Of course there re multiple layers and there are many factors involved in exactly what a response to any situation might me. However one thing is a fact for ordinary folks like myself...we often need to weigh the "good or bad" before taking a step. It could be a cultural thing though, cant say. By good or bad i dont mean good vs evil...i mean +/-

 

On function of sentience is to adapt to the environment and a major aspect therein is survival. Now we ont think in such strark terms as humans, but all animals do. They kow things in their bones...its known as genetic memory. For us it is more an organization, deductive thing...

[zenstillempty]

Hello. In Bailin Temple Zen we say it's best to start at the beginning. When the judging is done, judge never again. Feel the difference between harmful and not, and then feel no more. What's the point? Then do as Chinese Zen Master Hui-neng taught:

Those who train themselves in Zen should be indifferent to others faults and abilities, negatives and positives, for such an attitude manifests the emotional imperturbability of the empty, selfless, natural mind nature (Samadhi). Those who train themselves for this emotional imperturbability should, in their contact with all situations, emotionally ignore the positives and negatives of it.

 

As soon as you open your mouth or mind and emotionally identify negatives or positives, you have deviated from the Dao of Zen. When you become emotionally attached to outer objects, your essential mind nature becomes agitated. When you are emotionally detached to outer objects, the inner peace of your natural mind nature (Samadhi) remains. The reason why we become emotionally perturbed is because we allow ourselves to be carried away and then emotionally attached to the circumstances we are in.

-- Zen Master Hui-neng

Edited February 27, 2012 by zenstillempty

[suninmyeyes]

But how do we know what is evil? We must judge something that it is evil.

 

But how do we know to judge something that is evil.

 

We must have a belief attached of what is evil.

 

And so the distortion happens.

Hello,

as you can see I am not cat ,but got inspiration to write few words after reading this..

What is underlined - Dont pretend . Most of the people know and understand evil or bad or dangerous , it is encoded in our being ,a common understanding , as well as individual one. Unless there is strong mental or emotional imbalance present.

So to dance your dance and fight your battle and learning to adapt it is good to know the steps - understand what is it that 'you' are doing.

Life is distortion. One thing has to be put against another thing in order to exist.

So distortion has happened , is happening ,will be happening (?) and is not happening at all.

If there is no what we percieve as distortion we could not exist on this planet , becouse total balance is as close to destruction as total imbalance.

Got to keep the fire burning nicely.

So praise 'distortion' ! She is our perfect Mother.

I love her distortivness and temperamental outbursts , it dont faze me (well except sometimes).

 

However I know what you mean and trying to convey and it is good, but I felt to potray a different point of view.

[Marblehead]

-- Zen Master Hui-neng

There is a very important concept within that quote! Thanks for sharing.

[Marblehead]

 

So praise 'distortion' ! She is our perfect Mother.

 

While I do understand and agree with what you have said in this post I prefer using the word "harmony" as opposed to "distortion".

[三江源]

But how do we know what is evil? We must judge something that it is evil.

 

But how do we know to judge something that is evil.

 

We must have a belief attached of what is evil.

 

And so the distortion happens.

 

If only it were that complicated.

 

What suninmyeyes said.

[konchog uma]

Of course there re multiple layers and there are many factors involved in exactly what a response to any situation might me. However one thing is a fact for ordinary folks like myself...we often need to weigh the "good or bad" before taking a step. It could be a cultural thing though, cant say. By good or bad i dont mean good vs evil...i mean +/-

 

On function of sentience is to adapt to the environment and a major aspect therein is survival. Now we ont think in such strark terms as humans, but all animals do. They kow things in their bones...its known as genetic memory. For us it is more an organization, deductive thing...

 

sure and i'm not saying i never use discrimination or judgement. I'm just saying that that is a layer of awareness, and that there are deeper layers.

 

btw humans are animals. I can't prove to you with science that we have instincts and genetic knowledge, but i think we do, and that language and logic overshadows them. Why would our genes not store genetic knowledge while animal genes do? That makes no sense.

 

so i think the organization and deduction is the overshadowing logic, and i think there are deeper layers of awareness at play at the same time.