Carry water Chop wood

[Protector]

After constantly being asked in the most nice way possible, it is time to teach about carrying water and chopping wood in its most natural setting, the Taoist Discussion.

 

And with the best way possible, a story.

 

Two brothers joined a monastery to find answers to their questions. One brother was very studious and hard working and so he meditated and studied very hard every day, his name was Ichiro. Other brother wasn't as hard working but he followed his brother into monastery because he knew the work was worth it, his name was Taro.

 

The monastery had many rules and everyone followed a strict schedule. They had to wake up early to meditate, then eat, then beg, then study, then they would sweep the ground of the monastery. Taro hated it but he endured it anyway.

 

One day Taro went looking for his brother but when he thought he saw him, it was someone else. Then Taro noticed that everyone looked the same, dressed the same, and so was he. Some monks were young and some were old but they were all the same and not enlightened, as far as he knew. Taro hated the thought of being as old as the oldest monk and still not reaching enlightenment.

 

After thinking over it, Taro left the very next day. He already gave up everything to become a monk and so he was just a beggar.

 

Starting over, Taro started to work on himself because that was all he had. Ichiro studied parables since he joined the monastery and so he felt he improved himself.

 

While traveling, Taro met many nice people who liked him for what he was and he made many friends. Ichiro was so smart that he gained respect of other monks.

 

After talking to some of his friends, Taro got a job and over the years gained enough wealth to live however he wanted. Ichiro over the time became a more important monk in the monastery and gained a new title.

 

After feeling the freedom, Taro couldn't find any obstacles to overcome and nothing to worry about, and so he decided to get married. Ichiro gained a lot but he still needed to reach enlightenment.

 

While playing with his kids, Taro taught them what he knew and in turn he learned more simple things from his kids, things he used to know but forgot. Ichiro gained a lot but he still needed to reach enlightenment.

 

After living a long life, Taro gained wisdom and he decided to return to the monastery to see if he was missing something. Ichiro gained a lot but he still needed to reach enlightenment.

 

After arriving at the monastery, Taro wanted to find his brother again to ask about enlightenment. While looking for a monk with a high title that, Ichiro surely became for working so hard, Taro noticed an old man. It was the same old monk that made him leave the monastery when he was still young.

 

Taro talked to the old monk and maybe he reached enlightenment or maybe he didn't. Meanwhile, Ichiro gained a lot but he still needed to reach enlightenment.

 

 

Questions?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

how do you carry wood and chop water? sorry

 

 

 

 

Could that whole ordeal be paraphrased by a thought i had yesterday evening?

 

 

 

 

 

"even during/after the pursuit of enlightenment, daily life must still be tended to"

[Protector]

 

"even during/after the pursuit of enlightenment, daily life must still be tended to"

 

Maybe it is maybe it isn't

 

The story is not about enlightenment of how to get it, it's about what's on the way to it

[Jetsun]

So are you saying the best way to chop wood and carry water is to follow your own path? Sounds just like common sense to me.

[Protector]

Let's say you have problems in your life and so you start looking for how to fix your problems. Then the worrying about your problems becomes a problem itself. Then you try to reach enlightenment because you feel you need it, but the want of enlightenment is what is getting on the way.

 

Enlightenment is something that is hard to describe and hard to reach because you don't know what or where it is. You don't know where it is but you still keep walking or running thinking that maybe looking everywhere is the right thing to do, but then you die and it's over.

 

And so, wu wei

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

The Tao of Pooh:

 

The tao of who?

 

The Tao of Pooh!

The HOW of pooh?

 

 

 

 

 

Pooh Way.

[Jetsun]

Let's say you have problems in your life and so you start looking for how to fix your problems. Then the worrying about your problems becomes a problem itself. Then you try to reach enlightenment because you feel you need it, but the want of enlightenment is what is getting on the way.

 

Enlightenment is something that is hard to describe and hard to reach because you don't know what or where it is. You don't know where it is but you still keep walking or running thinking that maybe looking everywhere is the right thing to do, but then you die and it's over.

 

And so, wu wei

 

Worrying about your problems causes more problems true but also on the other side ignoring them or worse repressing them causes worse problems because it forces them into the darkness of your unconscious, so what is your solution?

[Protector]

Sounds familiar

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ9S04VMz2E

[Marblehead]

Worrying about your problems causes more problems true but also on the other side ignoring them or worse repressing them causes worse problems because it forces them into the darkness of your unconscious, so what is your solution?

 

Consider your problems as opportunities to excel and don't take life too seriously. (Ain't none of us going to get out alive.)

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I'm getting out alive but in a different form, perhaps.

[Marblehead]

I'm getting out alive but in a different form, perhaps.

Yeah, I've heard all that before. We believe what we want to believe but I promise you, life will get you one way or another.

[zerostao]

i like gail's commentary on carry water chop wood

sinfest i will have questions later!

 

http://www.care-givers.com/pages/journal/chopwood.html

[Jeff]

Hi Sinfest,

 

Thank you for the excellent story.

 

It conveys far more to me than your "clever" response posts.

 

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Yeah, I've heard all that before. We believe what we want to believe but I promise you, life will get you one way or another.

 

 

Life and Tao are inseperable, where there is Tao, there is Life/vice versa. this body is only an avatar of what we/I call "my" life, but no life belongs to anyone or anything but to all, the Tao.

[Marblehead]

Life and Tao are inseperable, where there is Tao, there is Life/vice versa. this body is only an avatar of what we/I call "my" life, but no life belongs to anyone or anything but to all, the Tao.

 

Well, that's one way of looking at it.

[starhawk]

Cool, Sinfest for opening up that Chop Wood Carry Water parable I always saw in your signature. But I am still attached to the little book icon that kept scribing away (of course, as if it was really writing anything to begin with).

 

 

Ok, can I play, let's re-write the story for different scenarios?

 

#1. Would it make sense if you combine Taro and Ichiro into one persona? Would it be any easier to live a secular life, but have a strict discipline with the purpose of spiritual enlightenment?

 

[i think the 9th Chan Patriarch said something like "If you seek enlightenment, stay away from the monastery." Please correct me if this isn't exactly worded. ]

--------------------------

 

#2. Just an question in theory. Suppose now Ichiro was not in the monastery but high in the mountains studying the Tao as a hermit.

 

What if Taro the businessman brother paid Ichiro to meditate for him all day, even though Taro thought his hermit brother mad? (Thus: could Ichiro pass his merits to Taro in exchange for grain)?

 

Would Taro be on his way to obtain the Tao as well just by living his ordinary life, giving alms, and not seeking anything, perhaps meditating 2 hours a night to clear his mind ;D?

 

Would Taro need to become a hermit later in his life?

--------------------------

 

#3. In theory then, no matter who you are in the story, or how important your job is, (even if Taro became the emperor of China), and you were diligent enough to do your meditations, you might find enlightenment, right? What then, is keeping you from getting enlightened: your job, being emotionally attached to your job, or your ego?

 

--------------------------

#4. Is the only way for Ichiro to stop his ego from seeking enlightenment, to sit quietly? How do you not attach to sitting and the monastery, if that is all you know?

 

 

Thanks I had to get all that out. Cheers.

[Protector]

I kinda like Ichiro and Taro the way they are, I wanted to show their progress side by side.

 

I was always taught not to make excuses or shortcuts since theres always a way out but you might not see it, yet.

 

Real obstacles are made inside a person by that person, you might think that wealth corrupts but it's attachment to it that becomes an obstacle that slows you down. If you just think that money is just money and take the power away from it, it wont have power over you.

 

I remember there was a story about a general who was in many wars and came face to face with death. When he retired, he started collecting vases. One day a vase fell off a shelf and he got scared for it more then he ever was on the battlefield. He then broke the vase himself.

 

Another thing is the lack of wealth, because you don't have it, you want it. In this case enlightenment is seen as wealth by a person. You don't have it and so you want it, but enlightenment is not something you can grab. This was the part where Ichiro got stuck on while Taro was exploring what life had in store for him.

 

When you're hungry, you can't focus on anything and so you eat and when you're full, you finally start working. The same way you're hungry and you keep looking for food instead of actually working. You know enlightenment is the most delicious nutritious fruit ever and you forget about apples.

[Mark Foote]

 

Questions?

 

Slightly different angle:

 

"'Miraculous power and marvelous activity

Drawing water and chopping wood.'

 

(Pangyun, a lay Zen practitioner, eight century C.E.)

 

'Cleave a (piece of) wood, I am there;

lift up the stone and you will find Me there.'

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, pg 43 log. 77, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

Chunyi Lin mentioned that he does reverse breathing all day long, and I would say that this is more in the nature of what I think of as "drawing water and chopping wood" in the Ch'an tradition. Nevertheless, I myself am not able to do "reverse breathing"; if I do "reverse breathing", it's the unintentional result of waking up and falling asleep with my sense of place.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Mark Foote