Acceptance

[73543_1494798777]

To accept, means to yield to the reality of the situation. The present moment is as it is, and to resist that doesnt make any sense..because it already is! Right? This is the basis of most spiritual teachings.

 

But this assumes that objective reality exists. If I am to accept the present moment, I must believe that it is a higher authority on what is REAL, than my own judgments/thoughts are. But if I cannot prove that objective reality (truth) exists, then how do I decide what to trust? Who/what is the authority on reality, and how do you know it is truly authority?

 

Basically I am looking for a justification for faith which doesn't necessitate creating unsupported beliefs. And having a hell of a time.

 

Typically I have always used logic as the only source of certainty. But to have peace of mind you must surrender, which is based on acceptance and trust. Without a clear-cut True Authority, trust doesnt seem justifiable.

 

How can you logically justify not using logic? How do you shut the reasoning mind off without setting off it's belief-bullshit-alarm?

 

Ive really been quite distressed for a while about this and I dont know what to do about it. Does anyone have any good links to books or websites where they discuss this in more detail? Can anybody comment whose sitting up higher from a clear vantage point?

[de_paradise]

I dont know if I can help you sort through that mulch of catch-22's. Faith is justifiable as expedient means, the quicker way of making spiritual progress. If you resist beliefs that can help you, then that is the slower route. The is the basis of the Vajrayana path, but all known "paths" in some sense. There is some part of you that would know in advance what is good for you or not, call it say, the higher mind, and that part of you communicates to you through intuition. Get good at intuition is to get good at sorting through the morass.

[Birch]

Somewhere floating round the main discussion is a post by a very favourite poster of mine (Taomeow) about faith vs belief.

 

I can't say exactly where I'm at with as it seems to both be operational on some levels and not on others. Especially not the levels i want stuff on. I think Logic is a good tool but it has flaws - as in it can't be used when multiple forces are acting on any given perception. Some people get past this (I think) by just saying it's all 'illusion' anyway. It's a mistrust of self IMO. Collectively it's lazy and leaves people open to relativism that can then be used to justify heinous acts. In fact, you'd think by now that with all these great religions and practices that we wouldn't still be f$cking everything up this much. Act as if it were all real.

 

----opinion alert---

[73543_1494798777]

Thanks, I will look for that thread.

 

 

Maybe a better way of asking this question is: Is experiential knowledge "more true" than logical reasoning? How do you know that an experience of reality is closer to the truth than thoughts about it?

 

It sucks cause im stuck in my mind and logical-reasoning mode. But I cant get back to awareness mode, because logically it seems indefensible.

[Protector]

You are trying to rationalize the irrational

Imagine time being a line with future going one way and past the other and you in the middle

That's the rational way to think about it

While in reality the dot that is you does exist, but you can't write it down on paper or graph it

The rational reality where you are is something that you imagined

You take a piece of paper and decide that the drawing on it will represent time and that's how it works

This drawing is something that gives you the feeling of control and you reassure yourself that it works by testing it

After playing around with a clock you think you find the truth and you feel safe

And you feel safe because letting go is scary

You fear that the dot that you drew that represent you will disappear if you let go, but you the dot were always free

The reality is very scary for the rational mind but sometimes the reality let's itself to be known, especially in this age

People start to notice these thing more often now and soon...

I don't know what will happen, I can't see the future

[Clarity]

[Phosphor]

It is actually only the unreasonable thoughts that cause any trouble. It is the illogical thoughts, that we then go and follow, that cause us mental suffering. A good logical sound thinking process comes about only when the mind is organized and put in its place. Thinking is not the problem, it is wrong thinking that is the problem. Only attachments make thinking right difficult. It is attachment that make us confused when we try to think about what the right thing is to do. If you are non-attached, and then think about what you must do, there is no apprehension or analysis paralysis. Thinking can take place and not dirty the mind. You can even feel emotions and remain free from getting caught up in the emotion.

 

So cultivate good reasoning and strong mind. But also learn how to keep the mind silent of all of the unconscious negative thinking that goes on constantly. Catch yourself when the mind is bickering, but when the mind is naturally calm, feel free to use the powers of the mind.

 

Stay in the present moment. If your mind is still, you are in the present moment. And if your mind is bickering, you are not in the present moment. However, if you stay unattached to the bickering of the mind, or if you are consciously thinking reasonably to solve something, then it is possible to think in the present moment.

 

As for faith. It is necessary to have faith initially, even in worldly feats. Sure it may be backed by reason, such as, I have seen many people parachute before, it probably will work- but still, there must be faith initially. And in order to meditate, you must first have faith in order to let all thought go and let your mind go silent- but then the faith is replaced by experience. Even in scientific studied there must first be faith in the hypothesis- they are not sure completely their experiment will work. But then this faith is returned with results. Spiritual practice should have results, and experiences. But if you don't have experiences, it does not mean meditation or praying for example doesn't work, it may just mean you cannot see the blockages preventing you from having the experience. So sometimes some students have longer waiting times for experience. But even more important is keeping faith, so that doubt does not ruin your meditation. Have faith so that you can allow your mind to calm. If you are constantly yearning for experience, then your mind will be rampant and disturbed- and the experience is the silence. Therefore, remove the blockages in the mind, and allow it to become silent, so that you may end up on the other side, where you already were.

 

Another important point I should make. Some spiritual teachers today are telling you to have faith, because they say you are already God, and so there is nothing for you to do. You simply need to accept it and become what you already are. There is a reason why there are practices the students do in every spiritual tradition in the world (except the new age teachings). Sure, you are God, as is everyone. But the god-man such as Jesus knows he is God, and experiences his being in God, while new agers and neophytes do not. Therefore, act, practice, purify yourself, and become like the god-man who is God and knows it, instead of the neophyte student who is God but knows not. The important thing is that no one should ever tell you to only have faith. There should be assurance of results. Also, it is not necessary to always feel like you are blindly surrendering. At first it may feel like that, but this will be replaced with assurance. It is a confidence which replaces faith. A confidence in the presence you were seeking.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Phosphor

[73543_1494798777]

Insight is the answer. Logic is actually a limited form of thinking. It does not allow for our full potential as human beings.

 

You accept, trust, and have faith in your insight.

 

Insight is what gives us answers, not logic or conceptual thinking.

 

 

Yes I have experienced this to be true.

 

But my mind objects. I literally feel like i an "sinning" by accepting something that I dont know to be true. I feel like I am acting insanely.

 

From a peaceful-mindset I realize that I really CANT know anything to be true, and that they only way to discover what is true is to be constantly "making mistakes" and "trying things that I dont know to be true".

 

Again though, the peaceful-standpoint rests on the idea that there IS something which is TRUE. Although I may not know it, it is POSSIBLE to be known.

 

My inability to prove that something is true pulls me into mind-identification and crazy logical thinking. Ahh!

[73543_1494798777]

Hmm. I feel like Ive found a nice key to this logic lock.

 

The only thing I can know for sure is nothing. Thats the only thing I can know with absolute certainty.

 

I can completely trust that.

 

The mind can relax.

 

 

 

 

Ahhh

[Rishi Das]

With a pure heart declare your intention; let go, surrender to all that arises. Let grace descend upon you and get the hell out of the way. Let the witness, witness. Let go of yourself, let go of faith, let go of logic, let go of reasoning; just be.

 

Much easier said than done but the point is to not worry so much, all it takes is a pure heart and the ability to let go; surrender.

Edited February 29, 2012 by don_vedo

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I see you've come to a nice resting place since I started writing this response, but:

 

interesting question...

 

When we're dreaming we have an unacknowledged faith that what we see is real.

In the present moment we also have this faith.

 

Whether you understand the present or not, it is still only real insofar as it is a result of so many other things which themselves are also a result of so many other things, etc etc etc, and on down the line.

 

What makes this real for us? The fact that our mind is here and experiencing it.

If there were no mind, there would be nothing being experienced.

 

Because there is a mind, there is an experience (without getting into why is there mind, desire, karma, etc...)

 

So long as you, we, I have these desires that put us here, "I and I" will continue to have these experiences.

 

 

Also, there is much understanding about faith being for followers, but faith is really more rebellious than knowledge.

 

Besides, you don't really need to be logical about every situation.

 

"Descartes said 'I think therefore I am.' This is where philosophy begins. But what about when you're not thinking? This is where Zen begins."

(- maybe D.T. Suzuki, or Taisen Deshimaru..)

[Marblehead]

Nice responses. I see no need to comment.

[Vmarco]

Insight is the answer. Logic is actually a limited form of thinking. It does not allow for our full potential as human beings.

 

You accept, trust, and have faith in your insight.

 

Insight is what gives us answers, not logic or conceptual thinking.

 

Except for the use of the word faith, the above post points to how enlightenment is uncovered.

 

Faith arises from belief, and all belief comes from knowledge, that is, from that which is not insight. Faith is always limiting (denying, disempowering, disconnecting), and limitation is a barrier to insight.

 

Insight is synonymous with gnowledge (from Heart-Mind; what enlightened one's have called the Higher Mind). The Greeks term for Higher Mind was thymos, which arose from gnosis. Logic is synonymous with knowledge (from head-mind; what enlightened one's have called the Lower Mind). The Greeks term for Lower Mind was psyche, which arises from knowing.

 

The post being responded to here suggests that "insight" is the path to develop full human potential. However, insight is not something one intellectually decides to start using, and viola!, there it is.

 

First there must be an ability to recognize insight. This doesn't occur until one can recognize what is logic. To gnow insight is to understand what is not insight.

 

Eckhart Tolle said "We need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself"

 

We need to be honest enough to recogize the difference between real insight (gnowledge) and logic (knowledge). One way of doing this is by way of understanding time.

 

The top post uses the term "Present Moment"...which is of the utmost importance to understand. Insight or Gnowledge always arises from the Present,...whereas Logic or Knowledge always arise from the past.

 

If your perceived insight arises from the past, it is not authentic insight. It may take years to remove the barriers for real insight to be seen,...but it will take lifetimes if we don't begin to recognize what is not insight. In other words, everytime you recognize what is not an insight, you remove obstacles which you have built against true insightfulness.

 

Again,...all knowledge arises from the past. All "past" is within time. There is no Present in time.

 

The term "Present Moment" used in the top post was clearly speaking of "perceived present," not the Real Present. The perceived present is still the past. And the past offers no insight.

 

The KEY to enlightenment is appreciation, which is synonymous with the theme of this thread, "acceptance."

 

Siddhartha became enlightened through the realization that Suffering is a Consequence of the Desire for Things to be Other than they Are. Thus, through the acceptance or appreciation of things as they are, he uncovered enlightenment. However, one must realize the difference between the Way Things Are, and the Way Things Are Not.

 

The Way Things Are Not are synonymous with the past. The past is not. Knowledge is not. Perception is not.

 

Insight is what gives us answers, not logic or conceptual thinking.

 

Both Buddhists and Taoists should understand that Insight does not arise from the Six Senses. The 6 senses can only sense that which is in time,...which is the past.

 

The Hua Hu Ching suggests, "the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totally fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go."

 

Conceptual thinking arises from the 6 senses. Therefore, as you recognize the 6 senses in your daily activities (what insight is not), you allow space so-to-say, for insight to enter. If your container is full of knowledge, that knowledge just wants more of itself, so to sustain the knowledge it has accumulated.

 

Insight is NOT a result of the past or a perceived now. There is NEVER thought or thinking in the Now,...all thought and thinking are in the past. When you realize that, that you cannot think in the Now, your life view will dramatically be altered,...and Insight will be Welcomed.

 

V