Can Meditation be bad for you ?

[doc benway]

Going back to your 1st post in this thread...

Meditation it terrible for "you"

That's because the "you" that worries whether meditation can harm it is the illusion that meditation dispels...

Then "you" is free and there is nothing more to fear.

 

 

How does this reply of yours, relate to the disastrous effects of meditation as suffered by the people depicted in the various examples in the links I've shown previously in this thread? This was my point of starting this thread. Talking about meditation, that its about 'figuring out who you are', finding a teacher, are simply going off tangent. Ah, and if you had read accurately in my post numbered #15, in the first block quote;

 

 

 

Obviously this sufferer who had a 'psychotic episode' and who was hospitalised, had clearly received instruction as he was on the 10-day Goenka retreat.

That comment was meant to share something of my opinion of what the word "meditation" means.

The spiritual and energetic gymnastics that people play may or may not be associated with anything like real meditation.

I'm not a fan of intensive retreats, they're fine for the experts but are terribly demanding and clearly hazardous.

And you can't forget personal responsibility either - a lot of fragile and unstable people are looking for answers in the spiritual arena and it's no surprise that folks flake out occasionally during a "spiritual experience," especially one as concentrated as a 10-day retreat.

[Jetsun]

Meditation opens you up and brings down your barriers so for some people this brings disturbing psychological material into your conscious mind which can unbalance you and lead to breakdowns. The problem in my view isn't so much people not getting proper instruction it is because most teachers and people in general don't really know how to properly deal with such issues or understand them very well. The meditation texts and instructions from thousands of years ago will most probably not be of great help because they were not meant for the people of our era who have different blockages and issues than the people back then.

 

If a teacher genuinely understands the blockages of the people he is with then he wouldn't give them an exercise which would unbalance them too much and would work towards things gradually, but such teachers are rare, for example Gurdjieff realised that most Westerners are very cut off from their bodies so he would prescribe them hard physical work and certain physical postures instead of meditation to ground people in their bodies and to bring their sense of identify out of their head first before they work on energy sensitivities.

[headiness]

That comment was meant to share something of my opinion of what the word "meditation" means.

The spiritual and energetic gymnastics that people play may or may not be associated with anything like real meditation.

I'm not a fan of intensive retreats, they're fine for the experts but are terribly demanding and clearly hazardous.

And you can't forget personal responsibility either - a lot of fragile and unstable people are looking for answers in the spiritual arena and it's no surprise that folks flake out occasionally during a "spiritual experience," especially one as concentrated as a 10-day retreat.

 

So you admit that meditation is hazardous and not for everyone, not for people who're fragile and unstable. Mr Siladasa and Goenka too would attest to this.

[headiness]

Meditation opens you up and brings down your barriers so for some people this brings disturbing psychological material into your conscious mind which can unbalance you and lead to breakdowns. The problem in my view isn't so much people not getting proper instruction it is because most teachers and people in general don't really know how to properly deal with such issues or understand them very well. The meditation texts and instructions from thousands of years ago will most probably not be of great help because they were not meant for the people of our era who have different blockages and issues than the people back then.

 

If a teacher genuinely understands the blockages of the people he is with then he wouldn't give them an exercise which would unbalance them too much and would work towards things gradually, but such teachers are rare, for example Gurdjieff realised that most Westerners are very cut off from their bodies so he would prescribe them hard physical work and certain physical postures instead of meditation to ground people in their bodies and to bring their sense of identify out of their head first before they work on energy sensitivities.

 

Insightful, thanks for this.

[Protector]

So you admit that meditation is hazardous and not for everyone, not for people who're fragile and unstable. Mr Siladasa and Goenka too would attest to this.

 

Is that what you wanted to hear? It's not that it's hazardous, it can also be deadly to normal people. There's a bunch of ways it can happen, I heard of a monastery where monks who gave up would commit suicide by going into meditation that makes you feel only joy and they would starve to death.

[headiness]

Is that what you wanted to hear? It's not that it's hazardous, it can also be deadly to normal people. There's a bunch of ways it can happen, I heard of a monastery where monks who gave up would commit suicide by going into meditation that makes you feel only joy and they would starve to death.

 

I felt it's naive for people to only hear that meditation can only bring benefits, without knowing that it can be hazardous too if done incorrectly or one is not in proper psychological state or whoever has issues, etc. Even with instruction from a teacher, there's no guarantee that nothing bad would happen. We can see this is true in post #15. By all means, meditate, but not without knowing its dangers and well, use some sense and restraint if and when it gets too much.

[Protector]

And now you know, so go call the news or something

This place has a lot of somewhat experienced people here who already know what they got themselves into

[RiverSnake]

Headiness, when seeking truth an individual should not seek while full of expectations...if he does he will only discover what his ego allows of him.

 

You seem to have an agenda of proving meditation is bad for people even when your confronted with a whole site of people whom have been practicing for years and have found no unhealthy side-effects except for of releasing our old attachments.

 

Someone being hurt by meditation is by far more an exception than the rule. Meditation is a form of purifying the consciousness...purifying oneself can be a very painful process, but it is not unhealthy...it is actual the definition of what it means to be healthy.

 

However, i would not recommend meditation for some-one whom is already psychologically unhealthy or to practice intense energy work outside the guidance of an instructor.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

[doc benway]

So you admit that meditation is hazardous and not for everyone, not for people who're fragile and unstable. Mr Siladasa and Goenka too would attest to this.

Personally, I would not make a blanket statement that "meditation is hazardous and not for everyone, not for people who're fragile and unstable."

Meditation is such a wide, catch-all type term, that such a statement is overly general and therefore inaccurate.

 

I do agree that certain exercises are inappropriate for certain individuals at certain times in their lives.

I also think there are more gentle and subtle methods that can be used specifically, and successfully, for people who are very fragile and unstable, and with serious mental illness.

Meditation has been successfully used in the management of some psychoses.

 

And even the best instructors and healers may mis-judge what someone needs at any given moment.

So of course there is always a risk that someone may have negative effects from any practice.

That's self evident, IMO.

Hence the need for personal responsibility.

[Jetsun]

Even if meditation causes you to have a breakdown it may not necessarily be a bad thing as the breakdown will force you to confront all that which is inside of you, which gives the platform for potentially better health and stability if it can be dealt with properly, so it can create what is called an acceleration of the ripening of your karma which means that you deal with all your junk a lot faster, if you can get through to the other side ok.

 

Once upon a time if this happened to someone they would be cared for in a monastery and given the appropriate space and support, but unfortunately these days there is no understanding of such processes and these issues are viewed as "problems" or "illness" to be got rid of and medicated aggressively, whereas many people who are supported through crises without being alienated often end up on the other side much more open hearted than they were before.

[robaire]

maybe too much is made of the correct postures etc because the original intent might actually be to get a person wher they disengage from the outside 3d world, and regress into a kind of inner state. and in this inner state, the true symmetry of order is discovered.

 

and in this inner coherence. the world becomes more personal, and more real.

[headiness]

Headiness, when seeking truth an individual should not seek while full of expectations...if he does he will only discover what his ego allows of him.

 

You seem to have an agenda of proving meditation is bad for people even when your confronted with a whole site of people whom have been practicing for years and have found no unhealthy side-effects except for of releasing our old attachments.

 

Someone being hurt by meditation is by far more an exception than the rule. Meditation is a form of purifying the consciousness...purifying oneself can be a very painful process, but it is not unhealthy...it is actual the definition of what it means to be healthy.

 

However, i would not recommend meditation for some-one whom is already psychologically unhealthy or to practice intense energy work outside the guidance of an instructor.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

 

You're accusing me of having an agenda. Don't get all defensive just because I've shown you guys a few weblinks to prove my point.

 

Someone being hurt by meditation is by far more an exception than the rule.

 

Still, that doesn't mean no 1 gets hurt. So if 10 people get by fine, and 1 ends up at the mental hospital, that's fine, going by your logic.

[headiness]

Personally, I would not make a blanket statement that "meditation is hazardous and not for everyone, not for people who're fragile and unstable."

Meditation is such a wide, catch-all type term, that such a statement is overly general and therefore inaccurate.

 

I do agree that certain exercises are inappropriate for certain individuals at certain times in their lives.

I also think there are more gentle and subtle methods that can be used specifically, and successfully, for people who are very fragile and unstable, and with serious mental illness.

Meditation has been successfully used in the management of some psychoses.

 

And even the best instructors and healers may mis-judge what someone needs at any given moment.

So of course there is always a risk that someone may have negative effects from any practice.

That's self evident, IMO.

Hence the need for personal responsibility.

 

Meditation has been successfully used in the management of some psychoses.

 

I can say for sure also that pills have been successfully used in the management of some psychoses too.

 

Has meditation cured someone of psychosis?

[SeriesOfTubes]

I can say for sure also that pills have been successfully used in the management of some psychoses too.

 

Has meditation cured someone of psychosis?

 

Dialectic Behavior Therapy, which is basically Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) plus mindfulness meditation skills is the recommended empirically supported standard of practice for borderline personality disorder. Borderline personality disorder has a lot of near psychotic features which can involve, self mutilating, suicidal, inappropriate or intense anger, or even diabolic homicidal impulses in some cases. BPD is a very stigmatized diagnosis to receive because of how frustrating they can be to work with.

 

Mindfulness meditation is the core skill taught because it is the ideal platform to teach self management of wildly inappropriate emotions and impulses. It is the current standard of care for treatment of borderlines because it as such a strong support as an evidence based practice for symptom reduction in both random clinical trials and as demonstrated by agencies that track their own outcomes.

[konchog uma]

I can say for sure also that pills have been successfully used in the management of some psychoses too.

 

Has meditation cured someone of psychosis?

 

there are blogs of people who turned to meditation (mostly buddhist, very accessible and "harmless" varieties) and overcame major diagnosises like psychotic depression and schizophrenia. They are off their psyche meds and living happily.

 

i don't remember the names of those blogs, but i have seen them. if you google, you'll probably find them. i'm short on time so i'm not going to search for links. My apologies.

 

also, pills don't treat the root causes of psychosis, they treat the symptoms, so there is not a direct comparison to be made in that regard. Nobody has ever been cured of depression by anti-depressants. Nobody has ever been cured of schizoid conditions by anti-psychotics. They just suppress the symptoms. Meditation can change the mind and body. Yes, body. It affects neurochemicals and hormone levels, and also can affect changes to the energy body and physical body of a meditator in subtle but profound ways.

 

Also, pills give people side effects, like cancer. But like i said, there's not even a direct comparison there so its a moot point.

[doc benway]

I can say for sure also that pills have been successfully used in the management of some psychoses too.

 

Has meditation cured someone of psychosis?

If you are interested in that, please feel free to research the topic.

There are lots of clinical trials in the literature documenting successful use of meditation in managing mental illness of different types - psychosis included (depression, schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder). In general, you won't find clinicians using the term "cure" when referring to psychoses as that requires a very specific set of definitions. They do show measurements of level of function and level of symptoms with and without specific therapeutic regimens.

There are successes and failures as in anything else, including drugs.

 

It is fairly well accepted that meditation doesn't cause psychologic damage but allows someone who is predisposed or already clinically ill to be exposed to things that were previously repressed that worsen their condition.

Our defense mechanisms are exactly what meditation dismantles. So if one is mentally ill or fragile, or has a lot of painful, repressed experiences (such as in PTSD), it's very important to use specific techniques and use them with care.

In an otherwise healthy individual, there is little or no risk to practicing meditation.

[Birch]

If you are interested in that, please feel free to research the topic.

There are lots of clinical trials in the literature documenting successful use of meditation in managing mental illness of different types - psychosis included (depression, schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder). In general, you won't find clinicians using the term "cure" when referring to psychoses as that requires a very specific set of definitions. They do show measurements of level of function and level of symptoms with and without specific therapeutic regimens.

There are successes and failures as in anything else, including drugs.

 

It is fairly well accepted that meditation doesn't cause psychologic damage but allows someone who is predisposed or already clinically ill to be exposed to things that were previously repressed that worsen their condition.

Our defense mechanisms are exactly what meditation dismantles. So if one is mentally ill or fragile, or has a lot of painful, repressed experiences (such as in PTSD), it's very important to use specific techniques and use them with care.

In an otherwise healthy individual, there is little or no risk to practicing meditation.

 

I would tend to agree Steve - with an additional idea that the very conditioning we succumb to (as currently promogulated by our culture/society which depending on where/when it is may be more or less cruel to certain people and not others, which is why this aspect goes potentially misread by some IMO/IME) may be itself rooted traumatically.

 

If you look at the 'rise' in numbers of people affected by 'mental health' issues - or at least the rise in people being prescribed meds for the latter in certain countries, then it may be worth questioning, are we collectively getting 'sicker' mentally or are aspects of us being 'over' or 'mis' diagnosed as 'sick'?

 

 

@Jetsun - so agree.

[headiness]

there are blogs of people who turned to meditation (mostly buddhist, very accessible and "harmless" varieties) and overcame major diagnosises like psychotic depression and schizophrenia. They are off their psyche meds and living happily.

 

i don't remember the names of those blogs, but i have seen them. if you google, you'll probably find them. i'm short on time so i'm not going to search for links. My apologies.

 

also, pills don't treat the root causes of psychosis, they treat the symptoms, so there is not a direct comparison to be made in that regard. Nobody has ever been cured of depression by anti-depressants. Nobody has ever been cured of schizoid conditions by anti-psychotics. They just suppress the symptoms. Meditation can change the mind and body. Yes, body. It affects neurochemicals and hormone levels, and also can affect changes to the energy body and physical body of a meditator in subtle but profound ways.

 

Also, pills give people side effects, like cancer. But like i said, there's not even a direct comparison there so its a moot point.

 

From the way you put it, it's like as if you brush medical science('pills' categorized under medical science) aside and glorify meditation now. Wow, so if someone has Type 2 diabetes, all he/she needs to probably do is disregard taking pills meant to lower the diabetic's blood sugar level and the diabetic just needs to sit and meditate because it 'can change the mind and body.'

 

A big 'No' to you. Diabetics have got to eat healthily, exercise regularly and take their meds. Otherwise, complications may occur. If their blood sugar levels aren't well controlled and if they happen to cut their skin somewhere on their feet, it can lead to gangrene and finally may have to face the prospect of amputation. On the other hand, if they watch what they eat and exercise regularly, take their medications, there are much less risks of problems arising. Diabetes is not curable, you can only control it. Diabetics can live with their condition well into their lives long enough, if they maintain a healthy weight range and engage in regular exercise. Diabetes can be controlled without meditation at all. I haven't seen any evidence of meditation curing diabetes.

 

Meditation should not be taken as a substitute for proper medical care. For common illnesses, taking medicines is all you need and problem is solved. Example? Anti-biotics. Or...would you prefer to meditate and not take the pill?

[konchog uma]

From the way you put it, it's like as if you brush medical science('pills' categorized under medical science) aside and glorify meditation now. Wow, so if someone has Type 2 diabetes, all he/she needs to probably do is disregard taking pills meant to lower the diabetic's blood sugar level and the diabetic just needs to sit and meditate because it 'can change the mind and body.'

 

A big 'No' to you.

 

you might think you have some slick logic, but thats not actually the case cowboy. Your big no isn't to me, its to yourself. I didn't say diabetics should try meditation over insulin, you did. Get things straight before you think about playing word games with me. If you're going to respond to something I said, respond to something I said. If you're going to make up both sides of the conversation to suit your own agenda, have fun talking to yourself, cause I'm done talking to you.

 

Diabetics have got to eat healthily, exercise regularly and take their meds. Otherwise, complications may occur. If their blood sugar levels aren't well controlled and if they happen to cut their skin somewhere on their feet, it can lead to gangrene and finally may have to face the prospect of amputation. On the other hand, if they watch what they eat and exercise regularly, take their medications, there are much less risks of problems arising. Diabetes is not curable, you can only control it. Diabetics can live with their condition well into their lives long enough, if they maintain a healthy weight range and engage in regular exercise. Diabetes can be controlled without meditation at all. I haven't seen any evidence of meditation curing diabetes.

 

Meditation should not be taken as a substitute for proper medical care. For common illnesses, taking medicines is all you need and problem is solved. Example? Anti-biotics. Or...would you prefer to meditate and not take the pill?

 

your faulty logic is this: you are treating all pills as if they are the same. I'm afraid you're going to have to engage on a bit higher level of rationality to keep my interest in your thread. As it is, i'm through talking to you. Good luck with your life, and with keeping track of which pills you're taking.

[headiness]

you might think you have some slick logic, but thats not actually the case cowboy. Your big no isn't to me, its to yourself. I didn't say diabetics should try meditation over insulin, you did. Get things straight before you think about playing word games with me. If you're going to respond to something I said, respond to something I said. If you're going to make up both sides of the conversation to suit your own agenda, have fun talking to yourself, cause I'm done talking to you.

 

Seems like you're getting frustrated here

 

Instead of copping out and accusing me of playing word games, why don't you address point by point from your earlier post?

 

Meditation can change the mind and body. Yes, body. It affects neurochemicals and hormone levels, and also can affect changes to the energy body and physical body of a meditator in subtle but profound ways.

 

So all along, you still glorify meditation and there's no mention of how medicine plays a part in managing and in most cases of common illnesses, curing illnesses. As with my example on diabetics and 'anti-biotics', I've already shown why there's no need for meditation at all.

 

your faulty logic is this: you are treating all pills as if they are the same. I'm afraid you're going to have to engage on a bit higher level of rationality to keep my interest in your thread. As it is, i'm through talking to you. Good luck with your life, and with keeping track of which pills you're taking.

 

Good luck with sitting down and meditate too and disregard seeking medical treatment and pills whenever you fall sick.

[Dimon Blya]

meditation doesn't work as long you fight pointless battles on the net.

science is always evolving so the current research may not be relevant as there are countless unpublished experiments and hypothesis being conducted as of yet, even more so that do not support the pharmaceutical agenda. I invite you to join your own body in Zhan Zhuang and experience modern advancements. I SING THE BODY ELECTRIC.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Dimon Blya

[boB]

you & i - a twig dropped into a stream flows with the stream just like the you & i thoughts when meditating; it is the you & i that is bad for meditiation.

[thelerner]

Whoa, Headiness, you've got a strong agenda and filter everything through it. We get it, your anti meditation. If any one says anything positive about it, you'll say something exaggerated like..'Well if you were falling out of a plane without a parachute, how would that help?! It wouldn't would it??!! See, I'm So Right.'

 

Meditation has been widely studied. It tends to help people and no its not a substitute for medicine or uranium and what not. If people over do it or are particularly energy sensitive they can get in trouble, in which case they need to slow down. What heals/helps can also hurt. That tends to be a universal principle for any practice.

 

Meditation runs the gamut from really listening to a great piece of music to empty sitting through various energy meditations..etc. It can be a great practice improving health, mind, body and spirit. Its not everyones cup of tea. There are many wonderful arts to try, yet at there very best whether music, art, sport .. at there very best, a person performs in a meditative state. So why not begin there and let it spread out naturally to what one does in all aspects of life?

 

 

my 2 bits

Edited March 8, 2012 by thelerner

[RiverSnake]

sniff...sniff, hmmmmm....sniff......anyone else smell that?....i smell a Vampire....

 

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

[Birch]

I think the OP has legit concerns. Given the amount of discipline to maintain a meditative practice in the face of what happens as part of the process, I'd say that if a person has doubts or concerns about their mental health, they probably shouldn't even start it without very good guidance. I agree a lot of other stuff is relaxing or gets you in flow if that's what you're looking for.

There's also some skepticism as to the effectiveness of meds to treat certain types of mental illness so I don't feel good about comparing them with CBT - which IMO is a suppressive form. Maybe I'm not getting it right though. Are the CBT people practitioners themselves?