Vegetarianism

[Mokona]

So I think this thread should be renamed or a new thread started something like - what's wrong with our food today or how corporations are screwing with our food or lies the FDA tells us or how to eat healthy in an unhealthy world.

 

Thread of that nature would be amazing. Especially if examples of healthy food and what to avoid were thrown around.

 

Much love

[idquest]

To my view, SereneBlue has made the best point so far re her personal experiment with eggs. Her health is better when she eats eggs, her health is worse when she excludes eggs from her diet. No supplements related/derived from eggs can substitute eggs.

 

This is an answer to the anamatva point as well: no science can tell what is better, veggie or meats, and why. Just because science doesn't know. People often forget how little the modern medicine science know.

 

Overall, SereneB's point proves YaMu's angle that only personal experience can tell what is better for a particular person's health.

 

Spiritual points? Can somebody be really spiritual if they are lacking basic health? I doubt that.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Ya Mu, I'm wondering, given your expertise, what do you usually eat when not eating meat? Any favourite recipes or special foods or combinations? Ways to make lentils more tasty, etc..?

 

H.E.

[suninmyeyes]

Can somebody be really spiritual if they are lacking basic health? I doubt that.

Of course yes! Why would someone who is ill be less spiritiual than someone that is healthy?

[Ya Mu]

To my view, SereneBlue has made the best point so far re her personal experiment with eggs. Her health is better when she eats eggs, her health is worse when she excludes eggs from her diet. No supplements related/derived from eggs can substitute eggs.

 

This is an answer to the anamatva point as well: no science can tell what is better, veggie or meats, and why. Just because science doesn't know. People often forget how little the modern medicine science know.

 

Overall, SereneB's point proves YaMu's angle that only personal experience can tell what is better for a particular person's health.

 

Spiritual points? Can somebody be really spiritual if they are lacking basic health? I doubt that.

Can someone be really spiritual if they are lacking basic health? A good question.

I believe the answer would be yes, they can. But I also believe and know from personal and professional experience, that it certainly makes it truly much more difficult. This is one reason I devoted my life to helping others. I know that when one is in terrible or even just constant pain that focusing on any particular aspect of ourselves is extremely difficult. Most of our attention is taken up by that pain. If we can overcome that, and rise to the spiritual, then we have indeed accomplished a grand and difficult thing. I believe sometimes these are lessons that we ourselves choose but dang, why do we make it so difficult? When if we had of just listened to our Divine aspect we may indeed not have made those choices that led to that pain. I use pain as an example but believe this would apply with most any ill health.

 

Ya Mu, I'm wondering, given your expertise, what do you usually eat when not eating meat? Any favourite recipes or special foods or combinations? Ways to make lentils more tasty, etc..?

 

H.E.

I avoid, to the best of my abilities, those GM grains, added sugar, and definitely don't combine carbs and protein when I can avoid it. Mostly avoid carbs except that I do enjoy a beer. Figure what the heck, gotta do what you like. We eat LOTS of fresh vegetables that we grow ourselves year round from mostly open pollinated seeds and without pesticides. Having some fresh carrots and cabbage today. Yum. I usually butcher a deer every year and eat small amounts of venison mostly during the winter as we have so much fresh vegetables in the spring and summer. Sometimes add pasture raised buffalo meat a few times a year. IF I lived on a coast somewhere I would eat fresh fish often as I love the taste of fish. Although extremely difficult to find fish these days without toxicity, especially mercury (gee thanks, power companies with your central coal powered generating stations). Try to avoid grocery stores as much as possible, but sometimes one has to do whatever they have to do to eat. So I scan the foods in the store when I go to attempt to get the better quality versus just picking up a sack of whatever is available. Eat lots of nuts like walnuts and fruits like bananas and grapefruit.

Recipes? My wife has a Chinese vegetarian cookbook which is followed only partway as we do not use much oil in cooking. I am not that talented in cooking. But I do know how to lightly steam vegetables. So can't add any expertise on the cooking part, sorry.

What works for me is not exactly what would work for everyone. Also, we are all going to die physically. I think paying too much attention, as in over-concern, to the physical does not contribute to the spiritual. So sometimes better to do what you like. I attempt to practice the middle path, even in eating.

[JustARandomPanda]

I think the point is about Killing full stop. Killing leads to hell realms.

Whether it is to eat or not is besides the point...

Mind you they don't see eating meat as bad, just the act of killing itself is a highly negative karmic action.

 

Killing is what many animals do. Does this mean carnivores are going to have Hell Rebirths?

[konchog uma]

I guess you too failed to read the whole thread.

 

no, but im losing interest rapidly.

 

No condescending attitude.

 

you sure come off that way for someone who isn't trying to condescend people.

 

I am arguing for the part of the population of meat eaters that need to do so for their health. Because this part of the population is ignorantly put down as "non-spiritual" by a significant number of people.

 

i didn't know anyone needed to eat meat for health. I have never seen that science so i am saying i am ignorant thats all. I don't believe the blood type diet info, i have read strong and convincing criticism of those ideas. Why do some people need to eat meat for health?

 

No one yet has addressed the fact that most vegetables that are eaten contain huge amounts of pesticides and are not really fresh so they hold little nutritional value, and the fact that these chemicals are bad for one's health. I argue for a person to grow their own food. Even apartment dwellers can grow a certain amount of their own food.

 

i eat 95% organic and %100 GMO free. aaand um those vegetables get fed to animals so theres no difference between veggies and meat in that regard. Maybe a different thread would be the best place to address that. One on organic food, and pesticide free food, not vegetarianism as such. Thats probably why nobody has addressed it.

 

I did propose the reason I thought this was true. Try reading the thread.

 

maybe instead of condescending the word i was looking for was just "rude" or "impatient". Anyway i wasnt referring to the idea that deer and cows and other animals will take over if the world goes veggie. I meant that i have never seen proper information about what eating meat does For a persons health. What is healthful about meat? Again, why do you think some people should eat meat, from a health perspective, not an overpopulation perspective?

 

Why do you think so many holy books and sages of religions (hebrew, shaivite, bible, buddhist, etc... there are probably 5x as many that i can't think of) recommend against eating it if it bleeds? Why do you think that so many wise people have actually drawn this correlation that you decry between ones diet and ones spirituality or vibrational state?

[JustARandomPanda]

i can definitely notice a difference between the attitudes of the vegetarian proponents and the attitude of meat-eaters in this thread.

 

I am a meat eater Anamatva. Do I come across as condescending?

 

perhaps though, you could tell us Why some people need to eat meat, instead of just stating that they do and then mocking everyone who disagrees?

 

Well....I'm not Ya Mu but one good place to start is Weston A. Price's book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. Now perhaps many people here have already read it. And I am always an advocate of hunting to see if Critical Thinkers have spotted errors both of reasoned analysis and of research to see if the case is not as good as presented.

 

No doubt there are some problems with Price's book as it was written decades ago and could probably stand to be updated with more rigorous studies. Unfortunately my wish - that such studies were done world-wide to the gold standard in research (double blind, randomized) and not funded by any industry even remotely with an interest in the results (so as to avoid conflicts of interest) will likely never come to pass.

 

 

I am however an advocate for self-testing. Perhaps a new era of large samples of people doing self-testing ala Seth Roberts (the author of Shangra La Diet which is worth a read - I personally preferred the hardcover version as he significantly changed the paperback from the hardcover.) will become more popular. While such testing protocols violate the double-blind, randomized protocol they may lead to researchers becoming interested in doing such tests to see if there really is something there.

[konchog uma]

I am a meat eater Anamatva. Do I come across as condescending?

 

not at all. But in general terms, i (think i) notice a difference. I eat fish, and i also try not to condescend people! hahaahha maybe there is no way to tell

 

 

I am however an advocate for self-testing. Perhaps a new era of large samples of people doing self-testing ala Seth Roberts (the author of Shangra La Diet which is worth a read - I personally preferred the hardcover version as he significantly changed the paperback from the hardcover.) will become more popular. While such testing protocols violate the double-blind, randomized protocol they may lead to researchers becoming interested in doing such tests to see if there really is something there.

 

big into self testing.. i have tried all kinds of things, no grains, wheat free, dairy free, no milk, vegetarian, vegan, pescatarian, raw foods, low carb, etc. i eat mostly raw fruit&veggies with some fish and i am considering doing away with the fish but i need to learn more i think. I am not sure if i eat it cause i love the taste, or if my body actually benefits from complex animal proteins. I think its the former.

 

thanks for the book recommendation. I finished The Little Book of Hercules btw, and want to say THANK YOU for that.. you are wonderful

[Seth Ananda]

This subject appears to be something you don't understand.

What I have been referring to the whole time is reposted to below:

 

 

So if you wish to argue these points then go ahead.

 

Your argument's above holds no water at all. You are using a community of vegetarians as proof. This is exactly like the pesticide industry regulating all the rules for clean water. You should know that.

What? Its an absolutely massive genetically diverse group where one can easily find every body type and elemental disposition. 16.3 million people in this one alone, and they are doing more than fine as vegetarian, they are actually amongst the longest lived and healthiest category in the world...

 

Also, you failed to address the fact that you criticized the Dalai Lama for eating meat that he needed for his health because SETH THINKS he knows more than this leader's personal physician while not actually knowing a damn thing about the details of his health situation. This is really rich, seth. I have to hand it to you for creativity.

Well this is rather funny, as I did not criticize the Dalai Lama, as I don't think badly of meat eaters {being one myself} [and I think the Dalai is Awesome!]

But just because his physician says one thing doesn't mean that a dozen others won't say other things! Or is this another example of physicians being OMNISCIENT?

 

But i am seriously beginning to question your ability to hold a rational debate?

 

You also said I was lying. Calling these FACTS "Ya Mu's thoughts". This is not the case. They are facts.

You know you jump onto the 'hurt' wagon very quickly in these kinds of discussions. All because someone disagrees with you?

And no, they are thought/beliefs... You try to prove it by saying "the Dalai's physician said so!" That is not proof, and leaves us with nothing but beliefs

 

What you seem to fail to realize is that, if just one case of people who do not do well eating a vegetarian diet exists, then it is ignorant of you to say that all people can eat vegetarian without problems. I have over 250 documented case studies on this, so if you want to still call me a liar, that is your problem and not mine.

 

Ohh documented studies?!? That really showed me! Have you ever heard of a study being wrong? Or being done well but on a flawed basis? Or only being part right?

How do you know that the vegetarians in question had good {or the right} vegetarian diets for them?

 

The truth is that, in your life experience, you simply have not been put in the situation where you have seen this inability to do well on a strict vegetarian diet.

Its all a matter of enough protein /carb/mineral/vitamin... Thats science. What one gets from meat one can get from vegetables with a bit of experimenting.

 

Just because it works well for you and your immediate circle doesn't mean it works for everyone,

Assumptions again? Not a vegetarian!

 

and again, your example of a group of vegetarians is just that - a group of vegetarians, and proves nothing at all.

lol, 16.3 million people doing just fine in just one of those groups.

 

The over 250 cases I referred to were physician diagnosed cases of anemia, not diagnosed by Ya Mu. Not one of these cases were meat eaters and each one of them were fine before going an a vegetarian diet.

There are many many vegetarians who do not have adequate vegetarian diets, that is true.

 

Not all people can handle a vegetarian diet. Some need to eat meat. This is simply the way it is, regardless of any particular person's emotional defending of vegetarianism or belief.

Just not true. No one Needs to eat meat as it is impossible to starve to death on a vegetarian diet. But It may take quite a bit of experimenting to find the Veggie diet that works best for you... {and doesn't lead to anemia}

 

Edit: I re-read the posts and see that a part of your aggressiveness was due to that you thought a part of my first reply to you was directed at you.

I usually answer a person, then in the next paragraph address the thread. But I can see in this case that I was not clear in that. I apologize for the mis-communication. So I edited my post to reflect this.

 

Have fun

Even though we don't always see eye to eye on things, i love your work!

[idquest]

Of course yes! Why would someone who is ill be less spiritiual than someone that is healthy?

Because for most people priorities would change as soon as they become seriously ill. Although some people will maintain high spirit even when ill.

 

Several months ago I developed several medical conditions that drastically shifted my priorities at that time. I couldn't stand wu ji because my muscles wouldn't allow me, and I couldn't do breathing practice because it triggered GERD. My main concern was to figure out what's going with me and how to deal with that. I maintained minimum social activity. I think that somebody who has ever been seriously sick will understand what I mean.

 

At time like this, the conciousness - achieved level of spirituality - remains on some automatic level, but becomes sort of dull. I guess because all energy goes to healing rather to spiritual evolution.

 

I hope I clarified enough.

[Seth Ananda]

Hi there folks,

I just wanted to add a few things to the discussion, even though I am not sure how on-topic this really is. So feel free to ignore my post.

 

First of all, let me start by saying, that I really don't want to argue for or against vegetarianism here. However, I think some arguments used in favour of veganism/vegetarianism are flawed and not completely thought through. The two main arguments I am talking about are

1. meat eating is unsustainable and takes up too much resources that could be used to feed people and

2. factory farming is cruel, therefore it is wrong to eat meat.

 

So here is why I personally think those two arguments are problematic:

 

1.) Yes, the amount of grains used to feed cattle etc. should better be used to feed people directly. But the thing is, cows really aren't supposed to eat (that much) grain in the first place. They eat grass. And you know what? That's actually a really awesome thing because

a) this makes the grass grow faster and thus is a good way to fix carbondioxide and b.) cows running around on the field with all their stomping, pooing and all that is a very good way to restore depleted soil, which is a really great and highly overlooked problem caused by modern agricultural practices (this is also a factor many people tend to overlook, that modern agriculture effectively depletes the soil, destroys ecosystems and thus also causes the death of many animals).

The story is similar for chickens and geese etc and pigs are very versatile animals anyways, there's really no need to feed them grains.

 

Sorry but this is plain wrong.

You have obviously never been on a farm [which i spent half my childhood on].

1.) Cattle munches grass down to its roots, and leave pastures looking like they have had a Brazilian. Go any where, where grass grows and there is no cattle and you will see thick, wild and wooly grass, which you'll never see on a pasture.

2.) Grass does not produce nearly as much oxygen as trees, which were cleared to make room for pastures and the crops to feed the cattle.

3.) Cows pass something like 12 liters of methane gas a day.

 

 

Seth.

[de_paradise]

To my view, SereneBlue has made the best point so far re her personal experiment with eggs. Her health is better when she eats eggs, her health is worse when she excludes eggs from her diet. No supplements related/derived from eggs can substitute eggs.

 

This is an answer to the anamatva point as well: no science can tell what is better, veggie or meats, and why. Just because science doesn't know. People often forget how little the modern medicine science know.

 

Overall, SereneB's point proves YaMu's angle that only personal experience can tell what is better for a particular person's health.

 

Spiritual points? Can somebody be really spiritual if they are lacking basic health? I doubt that.

 

Go to a good source of info:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study_(book)

 

I wouldn't recommend eggs if you are a man:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2043180/Prostate-cancer-Eating-just-3-eggs-week-significantly-increases-risk.html

 

Seth makes some great points, thanks for your patience. Suninmyeyes is the poster who I resonate with most, because she just "gets it" at some intutitive level like me. I watch all this right brain style hodge-podge discussion with a certain amazement and sadness, and how they dont seem to "get it" or feel it how vegetarian is right.

 

Health-wise I have never had more energy, looked better (slender, ripped abs), shining skin, than when I was on the raw vegan diet. The trick to making this sucessful is getting enough carbs, because we are used to dense refined carbs, you need to consume alot of fruit and greens. GLTA.

Edited March 11, 2012 by de_paradise

[Protector]

Wow...

 

This is getting interesting...

 

Have you guys ever wanted to write something for one thread but then decided not to and then another seemingly unrelated thread shows up that has the same answer as the last one and it keeps happening until you write something like this?

 

I'm not very good at adding billion quotes into one post but I hope you get the reference without any quotes *bow*

 

Let's say there's this guy who can see more then most people can. He sits under a tree, wears only rugs, and he absorbs energy from the tree for sustenance. He is very wise and many people come to him with questions and many people want to pay him something as thanks, others want him to work for them but he doesn't go anywhere and takes no payment. He gives answers for free.

 

He knows his body is not real him and the material gains can't add to anything he already has. He teaches for free because when he sees someone come to him for answers, he sees himself.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Sinfest

[JustARandomPanda]

Honestly...

 

The bit about going on the China Study diet is not without confounding factors. Such people eat less. That in and of itself has so many health benefits it boggles the mind.

 

For example... I can point to 70+ years worth of rigorous research across 25 species (including humans) showing calorie restriction is the Health Food Diet Bar None in delivering superior health. No other diet ever studied in controlled environments and now "out in the wild" by self-experimenters has the kind of health benefits of true calorie restriction.

 

One could go on a Calorie Restriction diet of hormone-fed ground beef, Twinkies and beer and as long as it was calorie restricted you'd see unparallelled health benefits.

 

 

1. eating less boosts your body's health parameters

2. eating less reduces use of fake hormones and pesticides

3. eating less reduces use of increasingly rare purified water for agriculture and aquaculture

 

 

 

Go here for the diet that 70+ years of research shows everyone should be on:

 

Beyond The 120 Year Diet

[JustARandomPanda]

Seth makes some great points, thanks for your patience. Suninmyeyes is the poster who I resonate with most, because she just "gets it" at some intutitive level like me. I watch all this right brain style hodge-podge discussion with a certain amazement and sadness, and how they dont seem to "get it" or feel it how vegetarian is right.

 

Health-wise I have never had more energy, looked better (slender, ripped abs), shining skin, than when I was on the raw vegan diet. The trick to making this sucessful is getting enough carbs, because we are used to dense refined carbs, you need to consume alot of fruit and greens. GLTA.

 

This sounds suspiciously like you are on a veggie loaded CRON diet. It's similar to the way Okinawans eat. It may be the CRON that is delivering these results and not necessarily the veggies. Until you self-tested the same amount of calories you have weekly on veggies with several months on one with same cals using animal sourced foods (preferably organic only and local raised to boot) you can not be sure.

 

I'm sorry you are so depressed about this thread.

 

It's just a bunch of peeps trying to make sense in their lives. If I could afford to live somewhere where I could grow my own food perhaps I would be fully organic vegetarian. I'd still eat my own chicken-laid eggs though. I do have real world experience my body does better with eggs. Taking lecithin supplements, B12 and other Life Extension vitamins/minerals doesn't deliver the same results as the real deal.

 

I don't eat modern factory made Soy however. But that's just me.

[JustARandomPanda]

Here's a link to a guy who eats meat but he fasts periodically while eating healthy.

 

Notice the incredibly low bodyfat and he's ripped. And his assertions are backed up by Science.

 

 

Top 10 Fasting Myths Debunked

[Ya Mu]

no, but im losing interest rapidly.

 

 

 

you sure come off that way for someone who isn't trying to condescend people.

 

 

 

i didn't know anyone needed to eat meat for health. I have never seen that science so i am saying i am ignorant thats all. I don't believe the blood type diet info, i have read strong and convincing criticism of those ideas. Why do some people need to eat meat for health?

 

 

 

i eat 95% organic and %100 GMO free. aaand um those vegetables get fed to animals so theres no difference between veggies and meat in that regard. Maybe a different thread would be the best place to address that. One on organic food, and pesticide free food, not vegetarianism as such. Thats probably why nobody has addressed it.

 

 

 

maybe instead of condescending the word i was looking for was just "rude" or "impatient". Anyway i wasnt referring to the idea that deer and cows and other animals will take over if the world goes veggie. I meant that i have never seen proper information about what eating meat does For a persons health. What is healthful about meat? Again, why do you think some people should eat meat, from a health perspective, not an overpopulation perspective?

 

Why do you think so many holy books and sages of religions (hebrew, shaivite, bible, buddhist, etc... there are probably 5x as many that i can't think of) recommend against eating it if it bleeds? Why do you think that so many wise people have actually drawn this correlation that you decry between ones diet and ones spirituality or vibrational state?

I am not saying you are one of them but most of the replies to me on this thread have been emotional or know-it-all based on "air" criticism of me by the "veggie handshake crowd" simply because I posted some things to consider about this subject as well as my experience in it. When I saw Mokono's post that one can certainly tell the veggie group from the meat group by their posts, I thought of a group of people with their veggie tattoos shining brightly going around with certain righteous indignation in their hearts, more than willing to take their sticks and beat some sense into those slimy devil loving bambi killing dumbass low-spiritual meat eaters. To be honest, I abhor this type of thing but have seen it big time in life, not just on this board. Kinda stinks of religion, in a big way, to me.

 

So forgive me if I came across as condescending to you. I do apologize. I sometimes forget that many have never been exposed to medical issues. I did post this already but I guess it did get hidden in the traffic.

The biggest medical problem that I know of with SOME people who go on a vegetarian diet, certainly not all people and probably not the majority of people, is anemia. This is a known medical diagnosis.

 

Many people who find themselves not doing well try various different natural vegetarian approaches to their problem, without success. Some of these approaches include whey protein, concentrated greens powders, etc. and do work for some percentage of people.

 

Why do some people not do well with a strict veggie diet and others do just fine? I don't know. As far as I know there have been no scientific studies on this. But I say, based on observation, that double blind studies do not prove anything at all. If they did, would all the many drugs that were "proven" by science to be safe, the same drugs that ended up killing off many people and crippling others; would these drugs be harmful? No, they passed the double blind studies that "proved" them safe and effective. Note many proved to be ineffective as well.

 

What I believe to be true, simply put, we are all different, different genetics, different stress situations and different environment. This would explain why a strict vegetarian diet works for some and not for others. The argument that these people who do not do well do not "do it right" is utter pure nonsense, as most who go this route attempt all known solutions to solve their problem.

 

But really, my original argument here, was not about this, but about the fact that "spirituality" has nothing whatsoever to do with whether one eats meat or not, and I gave the reasons. I also argued that there are many other considerations to diet, many which may make more difference than if a person eats meat or not, and I gave my reasons for this as well. Out of all of the criticism I have received none has addressed those arguments. I was expecting a debate on those points instead of righteous indignation that I am a meat eater (self-admitted as barely) or that I dared say that some people did fine and others did not on a vegetarian diet.

 

As to your comments about what the "sages" say you are getting into the area of belief systems. An example here is you say "the bible says" not to eat meat. Well, the bible says something to the effect that thou shall eat thy meat at night and thy bread in the morning. Here it is referring to simple food combinations, protein and carbs together do not digest as well as when eaten separately. I do know that spirituality is not defined by whether a person eats meat or not but by their actions and personal attunement. IMO anyone that says this is so is dumb as dirt.

[Ya Mu]

Sorry but this is plain wrong.

You have obviously never been on a farm [which i spent half my childhood on].

1.) Cattle munches grass down to its roots, and leave pastures looking like they have had a Brazilian. Go any where, where grass grows and there is no cattle and you will see thick, wild and wooly grass, which you'll never see on a pasture.

2.) Grass does not produce nearly as much oxygen as trees, which were cleared to make room for pastures and the crops to feed the cattle.

3.) Cows pass something like 12 liters of methane gas a day.

 

 

Seth.

Hi Seth,

I am not going to even answer your reply post to me about the vegetarianism on a detailed basis because you have so many things inaccurate that it will take way too much time to address them individually. Your assumptions are completely baseless and you didn't really address my points. You insist that your flawed analysis is correct because you BELIEVE it is. As an example of your flawed analysis: poison spray airplanes drop poison spray over your house and you call to lodge a complaint and find out the "board of discipline" consists of only poison spray applicators. Of course they "prove" to you that it isn't a problem. But you know it is. This is exactly the same as you using a group of vegetarians to "prove" you are correct. You also eat meat so appear to have no personal experience. I DO have personal experience but you don't THINK that has any bearing because you don't BELIEVE it does. You change what I say, ignore what I say, only respond to a portion of my points and make assumptions on what you THINK I say rather than what I actually say. The "studies" referred to are case histories which are exactly that. They are not and cannot be judged as wrong or flawed because they are simply what they are. How can one debate with that? If you want, see my post above for more info as to why you are dead wrong. I can see that you appear incapable of a rational debate on this and I can see that nothing can change your flawed opinion.

 

But I would like to address this above, which of course you are always so adamant that I know I can't change your opinion about this either.

You are obviously not a rancher or farmer to say the above. I am. Pasture management is complex, and animals can do much to improve the pastures. Have you never heard of rotational grazing?

Have a great day!

Edited March 11, 2012 by Ya Mu

[konchog uma]

I am not saying you are one of them but most of the replies to me on this thread have been emotional or know-it-all based on "air" criticism of me by the "veggie handshake crowd" simply because I posted some things to consider about this subject as well as my experience in it. When I saw Mokono's post that one can certainly tell the veggie group from the meat group by their posts, I thought of a group of people with their veggie tattoos shining brightly going around with certain righteous indignation in their hearts, more than willing to take their sticks and beat some sense into those slimy devil loving bambi killing dumbass low-spiritual meat eaters. To be honest, I abhor this type of thing but have seen it big time in life, not just on this board. Kinda stinks of religion, in a big way, to me.

 

So forgive me if I came across as condescending to you. I do apologize. I sometimes forget that many have never been exposed to medical issues. I did post this already but I guess it did get hidden in the traffic.

The biggest medical problem that I know of with SOME people who go on a vegetarian diet, certainly not all people and probably not the majority of people, is anemia. This is a known medical diagnosis.

 

Many people who find themselves not doing well try various different natural vegetarian approaches to their problem, without success. Some of these approaches include whey protein, concentrated greens powders, etc. and do work for some percentage of people.

 

Why do some people not do well with a strict veggie diet and others do just fine? I don't know. As far as I know there have been no scientific studies on this. But I say, based on observation, that double blind studies do not prove anything at all. If they did, would all the many drugs that were "proven" by science to be safe, the same drugs that ended up killing off many people and crippling others; would these drugs be harmful? No, they passed the double blind studies that "proved" them safe and effective. Note many proved to be ineffective as well.

 

What I believe to be true, simply put, we are all different, different genetics, different stress situations and different environment. This would explain why a strict vegetarian diet works for some and not for others. The argument that these people who do not do well do not "do it right" is utter pure nonsense, as most who go this route attempt all known solutions to solve their problem.

 

But really, my original argument here, was not about this, but about the fact that "spirituality" has nothing whatsoever to do with whether one eats meat or not, and I gave the reasons. I also argued that there are many other considerations to diet, many which may make more difference than if a person eats meat or not, and I gave my reasons for this as well. Out of all of the criticism I have received none has addressed those arguments. I was expecting a debate on those points instead of righteous indignation that I am a meat eater (self-admitted as barely) or that I dared say that some people did fine and others did not on a vegetarian diet.

 

As to your comments about what the "sages" say you are getting into the area of belief systems. An example here is you say "the bible says" not to eat meat. Well, the bible says something to the effect that thou shall eat thy meat at night and thy bread in the morning. Here it is referring to simple food combinations, protein and carbs together do not digest as well as when eaten separately. I do know that spirituality is not defined by whether a person eats meat or not but by their actions and personal attunement. IMO anyone that says this is so is dumb as dirt.

 

I didn't know that about anemia. I thought that was an iron issue. Maybe they were eating the wrong vegetables... leafy greens like spinach and kale are packed with iron. Thanks for the thoughtful response, although since i consider eating meat an action, i feel i risk falling into the dumb-as-dirt category, so i'll just keep my mouth shut.

[Ya Mu]

" Maybe they were eating the wrong vegetables..."

Now I know you didn't actually read the posts where I state that these type of solutions were tried. This is not a matter of people eating the wrong vegetables. Please re-read the posts.

Eating meat is simply that; eating. I would suggest you don't read too much into it and simply do what works for you.

[tulku]

hey all, i am just gonna focus on the practical aspects of vegetarianism and let others waste their time and energies on the right and wrongs of vegetarianism vs meat consumption.

 

i am an extremely lazy guy so i hate all the stirring and cooking and preparation and washing up..

 

furthermore, i find that all the smoke and steam from frying even light stir-frying cause me to have rather unhealthy skin..

 

so i have been goggling fast and easy ways of cooking vege dishes..

 

just a few hours ago, i came across this recipe titled "cooking pasta in a rice cooker"?

 

so apparently, you can cook pasta in a rice cooker without the sauce drying up (i always thought that you have to cook pasta in a pan) .. now apply the same principles to cooking vegetables in a rice cooker..

 

you know how they have these frozen bags of vegs in the supermarkets? .. well just grab the frozen veges or freshly chopped veges.. dump them in the rice cooker.. take those asian packaged sauces in the supermarts (eg indian curry or pad thai) or conjure up a special sauce of your own from those hundreds of varieties of bottles of sauces out there.. dump the sauce in the rice cooker.. stir, flip the switch and walk off..

 

you are gonna find that you have one tasty, easy veg dish without too much cleaning up..

 

most importantly, you do not have to cook the veg 100% unlike meats!

 

because of bacteria and germs living in meats, this is why it is gonna take more work, not impossible though, to cook meats in a rice cooker but with vegs, you don't have to worry about it not being cooked 100%.. in fact, you might not even want the vegs to be cooked 100% cos of the raw food theory or something..

 

so yeah.. why do i choose veg? cos it is cleaner, cheaper and much easier to cook and consume than meats!

 

and there lie the practical aspects of vegetarianism vs meat consumption!

Edited March 11, 2012 by tulku

[JustARandomPanda]

Why do some people not do well with a strict veggie diet and others do just fine? I don't know. As far as I know there have been no scientific studies on this. But I say, based on observation, that double blind studies do not prove anything at all. If they did, would all the many drugs that were "proven" by science to be safe, the same drugs that ended up killing off many people and crippling others; would these drugs be harmful? No, they passed the double blind studies that "proved" them safe and effective. Note many proved to be ineffective as well.

 

 

Well the above is true however in defense of the Scientific Method alas it is the best we've got at the moment of trying to remove oddball biases in day to day observations and theories. But you've noted some good criticisms of it. In fact, they are not disimilar to some of the criticisms Seth Roberts has made. He has been attacked quite a bit by the Scientific Method-Uber-Alles Thought Police and goes into quite a few posts detailing the hidden downsides of the current Group Think that controls who is or is not being "rigorously scientifically oriented" enough with their research.

 

It's good reading folks! Check Seth Roberts out sometime. He's got lots of good stuff on his blog.

 

 

What I believe to be true, simply put, we are all different, different genetics, different stress situations and different environment. This would explain why a strict vegetarian diet works for some and not for others. The argument that these people who do not do well do not "do it right" is utter pure nonsense, as most who go this route attempt all known solutions to solve their problem.

 

 

Yes. And don't forget about the emerging field of Epigenetics. Looks like some aspects of ol Jean-Baptiste Lamarck's theories of inheritence are having the last laugh.

 

 

But really, my original argument here, was not about this, but about the fact that "spirituality" has nothing whatsoever to do with whether one eats meat or not, and I gave the reasons. I also argued that there are many other considerations to diet, many which may make more difference than if a person eats meat or not, and I gave my reasons for this as well. Out of all of the criticism I have received none has addressed those arguments. I was expecting a debate on those points instead of righteous indignation that I am a meat eater (self-admitted as barely) or that I dared say that some people did fine and others did not on a vegetarian diet.

 

 

comments about what the "sages" say you are getting into the area of belief systems. An example here is you say "the bible says" not to eat meat. Well, the bible says something to the effect that thou shall eat thy meat at night and thy bread in the morning. Here it is referring to simple food combinations, protein and carbs together do not digest as well as when eaten separately. I do know that spirituality is not defined by whether a person eats meat or not but by their actions and personal attunement. IMO anyone that says this is so is dumb as dirt.

 

 

Well I think at least some Vegetarians/Vegans *do* in fact believe Veggie-Only-Eaters resonate at a higher spiritual level and further believe the fruit of that higher resonance is their non-meating-eating-actions, not the reverse. de paradise comes across pretty strong in that belief from what I've gathered in this thread. Hence his depression at the posts made by meat-eaters (including I take it, me) in this thread.

 

I presume he sees us as advocating for being lower spiritual beings and not aspiring to a higher status like his own life exhibits which he believes he's attained. [just a note: I am not one of those people afraid to say some people or some states are higher or lower than others, for some clearly are. I'm just in doubt as to whether Devout Vegetarianism is one of those Higher Evolved States.]

[Ya Mu]

Well the above is true however in defense of the Scientific Method alas it is the best we've got at the moment of trying to remove oddball biases in day to day observations and theories. But you've noted some good criticisms of it. In fact, they are not disimilar to some of the criticisms Seth Roberts has made. He has been attacked quite a bit by the Scientific Method-Uber-Alles Thought Police and goes into quite a few posts detailing the hidden downsides of the current Group Think that controls who is or is not being "rigorously scientifically oriented" enough with their research.

 

It's good reading folks! Check Seth Roberts out sometime. He's got lots of good stuff on his blog.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. And don't forget about the emerging field of Epigenetics. Looks like some aspects of ol Jean-Baptiste Lamarck's theories of inheritence are having the last laugh.

 

 

 

 

 

Well I think at least some Vegetarians/Vegans *do* in fact believe Veggie-Only-Eaters resonate at a higher spiritual level and further believe the fruit of that higher resonance is their non-meating-eating-actions, not the reverse. de paradise comes across pretty strong in that belief from what I've gathered in this thread. Hence his depression at the posts made by meat-eaters (including I take it, me) in this thread.

 

I presume he sees us as advocating for being lower spiritual beings and not aspiring to a higher status like his own life exhibits which he believes he's attained. [just a note: I am not one of those people afraid to say some people or some states are higher or lower than others, for some clearly are. I'm just in doubt as to whether Devout Vegetarianism is one of those Higher Evolved States.]

Just before I retired from clinic (or semi-retired as it seems I can't really get away from it) I analyzed, in a philosophical manner, the sum of what I had learned over the more than 35 year period. One of the things to which I came to the conclusion was that we are most definitely a product of our genetics. Yes, we can optimize our health through lifestyle changes which include nutritional changes but we will always have tendencies. Although I did find a high level method to re-program the DNA through energetics (demonstrated in the Gift of Tao movement video), I also learned that some things just are. No matter what we wish to believe, they just are.

 

About the "spiritual " issue and meat. I know personally, having been a vegetarian for a long time and then going to eating meat, that my personal development didn't change one way or the other. Constant growth through the practice no matter what I ate. I have also gauged the development of my students, some of who are vegetarians and some who are not and see that it doesn't make one iota difference. People read stuff that someone made up then start believing it as gospel. Unfortunately then someone else writes the same thing just rewording what the other guy wrote. Then it becomes further "gospel". I was amazed at the quote posted in this thread by someone about what John Chang "got" about this subject when asked. It was EXACTLY what I have gotten in meditation. And I had never read the referenced book (I think this was before the book was published). And I don't offer this as "proof" to anyone out there but as conversation to you. I should add that I later asked my teacher about it and he said the same thing.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Harmonious Emptiness]

An important note for vegetarians, seeing that anemia can be one of the risks:

 

"Anemia related to poor nutrition: Vitamins and minerals are required to make red blood cells. In addition to iron, vitamin B12 and folate are required for the proper production of hemoglobin. Deficiency in any of these may cause anemia because of inadequate production of red blood cells. Poor dietary intake is an important cause of low folate and low vitamin B12 levels. Strict vegetarians who do not take sufficient vitamins are at risk to develop vitamin B12 deficiency."

 

Iron is easy to get from legumes, and folate from orange juice. Beyond this, nutritional yeast is a great for B12 and B complex.

 

Also, I recently learned that pine pollen is a vegetable source of vitamin D !

 

 

Really though, I could see some unexplained complications happening in people who's genes are heavily geared to high meat intake, like Inuits for example. Tibetans might be in this group as well. I think most Native American tribes did enough foraging to offset this but maybe not.