Bagua: Configurations of Trigrams

[ChiDragon]

Exactly what don't you understand

 

How did you come to this conclusion...???

Early Heaven is Yin - Later Heaven is Yang

[mYTHmAKER]

How did you come to this conclusion...???

 

 

Because early heaven is wuji - yin - before the big bang - everything is in place waiting to happen.

Everything is perfectly balanced in stasis.

Later heaven is in motion, expanding - yang - big bang baby

The way they are weighted - the wheel turns - the seasons change -

[ChiDragon]

 

Here is how the Early Day Ba Gua evolved to the Later Day Ba Gua.

 

First, let's look at the Heaven(Yang) and Earth(Yin) trigrams. The Yin reacts with the Yang. Since these two trigrams are either all solid or broken lines, thus the center line reacted by exchange position with each other. The final result, the Fire(Sun) trigram is ended on top(South) and the Water(Moon) trigram is at the bottom(North). Indeed, after the universe was created, the Sun is the brightest and hottest at high noon in the South. That is why the Fire trigram is ended up in the top.

 

The light of the Moon depends on the light of the Sun, therefore, the Moon is passive which being having the Yin attribute.

 

The trigrams, in the four main directions, only reacting with one line exchanging position with each other following by a logical sequence. Let see if anyone of you can figure out how the Fire(East) and Water(West) changed to what is now in the Later Day Ba Gua....!!! Please remember, you must give a good reason why did you make those changes as such.

Edited March 9, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

..how the Fire(West) and Water(East) changed to what is now in the Later Day Ba Gua....!!!

 

Did you mean change from Fire in the East? as in the Pre-Heaven Bagua?

 

Interesting explanation!!

[ChiDragon]

Did you mean change from Fire in the East? as in the Pre-Heaven Bagua?

 

Interesting explanation!!

Yes, sorry. I had made the corrections. Thank you.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

... figure out how the Fire(East) and Water(West) changed to what is now in the Later Day Ba Gua....!!! Please remember, you must give a good reason why did you make those changes as such.

 

Hmm... Does it have something to do with Fire opening to heaven to become Thunder, and Water becoming strong at the earth level to become Lake? Looking at the trigrams lines as representing Heaven (top) Earth (bottom) and Humanity (middle).

 

I'm also noticing now how Thunder and Lake are reversed to become Mountain and Wind in the Post-Heaven Bagua, while Thunder and Lake become West and East in the Post-Heaven Bagua. I'm not sure these are related though..

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Can someone also tell me how the times of day relate to sections of the bagua?

 

edit..

 

actually never mind, I found this:

 

 

So I guess Fire ends at 3pm..

Edited March 9, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

Can someone also tell me how the times of day relate to sections of the bagua?

 

edit..

 

actually never mind, I found this:

 

 

So I guess Fire ends at 3pm..

Fire is High Noon at 12:00PM

[ChiDragon]

 

Here is how the Fire trigram reacts with the Water trigram to become Thunder and Swamp trigrams, respectively.

 

First, let's look at the characteristics of the fire and Water. Fire rises and Water flows down. Therefore, the top line of Fire reacts with the bottom line of Water. If we exchange the position of those lines, then Fire become Thunder and Water becomes Swamp as shown in the Later Day(Heaven) Ba Gua.

[Astral Monk]

They face outwards with the bottom line facing inside the bagua.

 

What I want to know is whether there is a special reason for this OR is it just a convention?

 

If there is a reason for it, then flipping a trigram creates a new bagua configuration.

 

If its just a convention, then it doesn't matter how the trigram looks, because it is the symbolism of the force being present in that relative location in the octagon.

 

???

 

 

 

Seems kind of like a story line of development, or even of the classic myth:

Rising, Embarking on journey

Exhaustion, major setbacks

Great Accumulation, acquires wisdom

Accord, finds peace with situation

Nourishment, builds and prepares to obtain elixer

Abundance, attains elixer

Sincerity In The Center, learns from experience, finds true to self, enlightenment

Great Posession

 

Or else:

Rising, begin practice

Exhaustion, peak of practice

Great Accumulation, benefit from practice

Accord, inner harmony after practice

Nourishment, nourished by inner harmony

Abundance, fullness, jing transmutes as chi

Sincerity In The Center, chi transmutes to spirit, spirit returns to emptiness

Great Posession

 

This is cool, I like it!

 

8)

[Astral Monk]

How about assign white to yang and black to yin

 

Yang = heaven, mountain, thunder, water the abyss

Yin = earth, lake, fire, wind, lake (swamp)

 

 

Interesting.

 

8)

[Astral Monk]

 

Here is how the Fire trigram reacts with the Water trigram to become Thunder and Swamp trigrams, respectively.

 

First, let's look at the characteristics of the fire and Water. Fire rises and Water flows down. Therefore, the top line of Fire reacts with the bottom line of Water. If we exchange the position of those lines, then Fire become Thunder and Water becomes Swamp as shown in the Later Day(Heaven) Ba Gua.

 

Why would the top line of fire react with the bottom line of water? What is the logic for this?

 

So far we are seeing a transformation of symbols on the opposite side. This sort of shifting doesn't seem to account for how mountain and lake turn into heaven and wind.

 

8)

[ChiDragon]

Why would the top line of fire react with the bottom line of water? What is the logic for this?

 

So far we are seeing a transformation of symbols on the opposite side. This sort of shifting doesn't seem to account for how mountain and lake turn into heaven and wind.

 

8)

 

First, let's look at the characteristics of the fire and Water.

Fire rises, thus use the top line.

Water flows down, thus use the bottom line.

If we exchange the position of those lines, then Fire become Thunder and Water becomes Swamp as shown in the Later Day(Heaven) Ba Gua.

Edited March 10, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Another question: Can someone tell me, why is Feng Shui translated as Wind & Water, but the Wind and Water trigrams are Xun and Kan?

 

@ Chi Dragon:

 

I'll have to take your word on that, not knowing exactly what caused these specific lines to interact.

 

There is also this explanation:

1-6 1 Heaven generates water, Earth 6 completes it.

The North (bottom) is assigned the Water element.

2-7 2 Earth generates fire, Heaven 7 completes it.

The South (top) is assigned the Fire element.

3-8 3 Heaven generates wood, Earth 8 completes it.

The East (left) is assigned the Wood element.

4-9 4 Earth generates metal, Earth 9 completes it.

The West (right) is assigned the Metal element.

5-10 5 Heaven generates water, Earth 6 completes it.

The North (bottom) is assigned the Water element.

 

 

 

What I want to know is whether there is a special reason for this OR is it just a convention?

 

If there is a reason for it, then flipping a trigram creates a new bagua configuration.

 

If its just a convention, then it doesn't matter how the trigram looks, because it is the symbolism of the force being present in that relative location in the octagon.

 

???

 

 

Yes, flipping the trigram creates a different trigram, as is the case with Thunder and Mountain. One symbolism I have heard is about eart/humanity/heaven. The bagua center is generally considered earth, so the trigrams would grow from the center, I believe.

[mYTHmAKER]

Interesting.

 

8)

 

Yes and if you go back to my post #22 you can see the relationships between Early and Later Heaven

in living color

[ChiDragon]

Another question: Can someone tell me, why is Feng Shui translated as Wind & Water, but the Wind and Water trigrams are Xun and Kan?

 

@ Chi Dragon:

 

I'll have to take your word on that, not knowing exactly what caused these specific lines to interact.

 

There is also this explanation:

1-6 1 Heaven generates water, Earth 6 completes it.

The North (bottom) is assigned the Water element.

2-7 2 Earth generates fire, Heaven 7 completes it.

The South (top) is assigned the Fire element.

3-8 3 Heaven generates wood, Earth 8 completes it.

The East (left) is assigned the Wood element.

4-9 4 Earth generates metal, Earth 9 completes it.

The West (right) is assigned the Metal element.

5-10 5 Heaven generates water, Earth 6 completes it.

The North (bottom) is assigned the Water element.

 

 

"Feng Shui translated as Wind & Water, but the Wind and Water trigrams are Xun and Kan"

 

Feng Shui is the 風水, Wind & Water. A general term was given to this divination profession. The reason the name was given as Feng Shui(風水, Wind & Water) is because the wind and water have a great influence which effecting our living environment.

 

"Wind and Water trigrams are Xun and Kan"

In Yi Jing, Xun was a technical name given to the trigram of Wind itself; and Kan was a given name to the trigram of Water.

 

Yes, you'll have to take my words for it. One can find the information in a Chinese reference source. The diagram in the cited site was called the He Tu. All the black dots were considered as Earth and the white dots as Heaven. What you have given above is the interpretation of the He Tu. Indeed, we have to take the interpretation as given definitions. Based on the definition of the black(Earth) and white(Heaven) dots, I see there is an error in:

4-9 4 Earth generates metal, Earth 9 completes it.

The West (right) is assigned the Metal element.

 

All the odd numbers are consider to be (Heaven)Yang.

 

It should be corrected to read:

4-9 4 Earth generates metal, Heaven 9 completes it.

The West (right) is assigned the Metal element.

 

The five elements were assigned to the four main directions and the center(Earth). It is very important for the Feng Shui masters to remember the position of those elements for Feng Shui interpretations.

Edited March 10, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hi Chi

 

How is Heaven associated with 9 though (only 8 trigrams)?

 

May I ask where you learned about Feng Shui? Not that I question it, I'm just looking for more sources. Thanks.

[ChiDragon]

Hi Chi

 

How is Heaven associated with 9 though (only 8 trigrams)?

 

May I ask where you learned about Feng Shui? Not that I question it, I'm just looking for more sources. Thanks.

The nine is the number of white dots in to He Tu; it has nothing to do with the trigrams. Please don't get confuse with that.

 

There lots of materials written in Chinese literature which is not possible to be translated into English. If you really want to learn about Feng Shui, it is better to learn it from a Chinese Feng Shui master which speaks English. However, you must pay a high price for it.

[Taomeow]

The nine is the number of white dots in to He Tu; it has nothing to do with the trigrams. Please don't get confuse with that.

 

There lots of materials written in Chinese literature which is not possible to be translated into English. If you really want to learn about Feng Shui, it is better to learn it from a Chinese Feng Shui master which speaks English. However, you must pay a high price for it.

 

The main texts that could help you get it have been translated. (If you studied them in any language under a knowledgeable master, I've a hunch you'd have mentioned the Nine Palaces instead of the "nine white dots.") "Has nothing to do with the trigrams" has been untrue ever since the two fundamental classical feng shui schools, the Ming and the Guanzhou, integrated the Nine Palaces derived from Hetu and Luoshu with the bagua, the Ten Stems and Twelve Branches, the constellations, the landforms, and the rest of them goodies that together comprise the bulk of the original Chinese philosophy and practice (THAT's what feng shui really is, not "wind-water" but "spirit-manifestation," a much deeper cognitive paradigm). This, my friend, was documented in much detail circa 874-889 a.d. but happened, in all likelihood, much earlier.

 

Give it a rest already with "you can't get the info unless you read Chinese." For starters, some of us have Chinese teachers who speak English and are able and occasionally willing to offer oral transmissions both of material that can be found in books (if you know where to look) AND of material you won't find in books, in any language, if you live to be a thousand. Then again, some of us read other languages than English, and what has and what hasn't been translated into these does not always overlap. E.g., you have no idea how many books have been translated from Chinese into Russian that are no longer available in Chinese because of the Cultural Revolution and other book-unfriendly historic events. As just one example, the humongous ancient treatise that forms the basis of Tibetan medicine -- which has a lot of feng shui in it because it's all one snake -- I've read it in Russian into which it's been translated in the 19th century by the teacher of the dalai lama, but you can't read it in Chinese because every single copy has been destroyed since then. So, do keep this in mind, OK?..

[Protector]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Could you tell me names of some of these books and where I might find them?

[ChiDragon]

I was only talking about the nine dots, since the question was pointing to that direction. The nice palaces is a different story. What you said is true, but there a lot more to it in interpretation then just translation since the Feng Shui system was developed by an esoteric Taoist Group.

 

(THAT's what feng shui really is, not "wind-water" but "spirit-manifestation,"

 

I see something got lost in the above quote already.

[Taomeow]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Could you tell me names of some of these books and where I might find them?

 

Hmmmmmm indeed, we're talking years of accumulation of sources from here and there. The latest one I got is pretty good and poses no translation problems whatsoever (the author is Chinese but, being spectacularly talented as a taoist sage can be expected to be whether "leaving the world" or "coming into the world," has come into the world, got a few Ph.D. degrees in Russia, and writes some of his books in Russian, including this one):

 

У Вэйсинь, "Новый Фэн Шуй: Биоэнергетика и здоровье"

 

It is available in Russian bookstores in New York (where I got it by physically walking in). Good luck!

[Taomeow]

I was only talking about the nine dots, since the question was pointing to that direction. The nice palaces is a different story. What you said is true, but there a lot more to it in interpretation then just translation since the Feng Shui system was developed by an esoteric Taoist Group.

 

 

 

I see something got lost in the above quote already.

 

Feng shui is not what your dictionary told you it is. You can't get it by translating the words. It means exactly what I said it means, not "wind and water" as it is translated by those who have the dictionary but not the classical form-compass and/or xuan kong feng shui training. Word.

[ChiDragon]

Feng shui is not what your dictionary told you it is. You can't get it by translating the words. It means exactly what I said it means, not "wind and water" as it is translated by those who have the dictionary but not the classical form-compass and/or xuan kong feng shui training. Word.

 

If your mind has made up what it is already, then, there is no further action needed to change it....

[joeblast]

If your mind has made up what it is already, then, there is no further action needed to change it....

You should stop using this as a defense to the revelation of the lack of depth of an overtly scholarly understanding.