Bagua: Configurations of Trigrams

[Taomeow]

Thanks for a helping hand/mind, Joeblast!

[ChiDragon]

You should stop using this as a defense to the revelation of the lack of depth of an overtly scholarly understanding.

 

I just don't want to go into an unnecessary lengthy argument which leads us nowhere. Nothing personal....

[Taomeow]

Here's a few paragraphs translated on the go from the book on feng shui I mentioned to Sinfest -- curiously, when I took it from the shelf, it spontaneously opened to this passage:

 

"What does the very notion of "feng shui" mean? Feng and Shui are the basic symbolic categories of the subtle life energy, qi. In translation feng means "wind" and shui is usually erroneously translated as "water." However, like with any Chinese characters, the real translation of the hieroglyphs "feng" and "shui" presents not the definitions but the images revealed to humans by the surrounding nature and reflecting complex processes of the universe. Thus, Chinese sages understood the term "feng" as referring to any type of manifested movement, and "shui" was their name for different states (objects and phenomena) that are subject to movement. That's why "feng shui," like "the moisture of the clouds moved by the wind," is understood as manifestations of the process of living which are subject to change in any (auspicious or inauspicious) direction.

 

Yet the wind has no shape and the clouds have no size. To measure the size of the clouds and perceive the shape of the wind, one must master the genuine knowledge of the science of feng shui.

 

Can the wind (feng) acquire shape, and the clouds (shui) -- dimensions? The answer to these questions is found in ancient Chinese treatises, which state that the unity is embodied in the rhythm, the rhythm creates structure, structure generates form, form determines the dimensions (size), the size determines the volume, volume gives birth to space, space is measured with time. The "unity" is qi. Pulsating qi creates the form, imparting the rhythm into all of the universe by manifesting itself in the movement of yang-qi and yin-qi. The manifestation of the form and the possibility of its reverse transformation is the way of qi, or Tao. Comprehension of this way -- de -- is possible if man studies and abides by the laws of feng shui. The basis of the Chinese science of feng shui is the skill of discerning the flow of qi and moving within its course."

And this isn't even the first brush stroke, it's not even dipping the brush, it's not even grinding the ink yet... it's just a whiff of the feng over the would-be shui in the ink pot, a hand over a brush, not even... a glance at the brush that can generate feng that can dive into shui that promises a picture --

if it doesn't change its direction, its mind, its spirit...

[mYTHmAKER]

The main texts that could help you get it have been translated. (If you studied them in any language under a knowledgeable master, I've a hunch you'd have mentioned the Nine Palaces instead of the "nine white dots.") "Has nothing to do with the trigrams" has been untrue ever since the two fundamental classical feng shui schools, the Ming and the Guanzhou, integrated the Nine Palaces derived from Hetu and Luoshu with the bagua, the Ten Stems and Twelve Branches, the constellations, the landforms, and the rest of them goodies that together comprise the bulk of the original Chinese philosophy and practice (THAT's what feng shui really is, not "wind-water" but "spirit-manifestation," a much deeper cognitive paradigm). This, my friend, was documented in much detail circa 874-889 a.d. but happened, in all likelihood, much earlier.

 

Give it a rest already with "you can't get the info unless you read Chinese." For starters, some of us have Chinese teachers who speak English and are able and occasionally willing to offer oral transmissions both of material that can be found in books (if you know where to look) AND of material you won't find in books, in any language, if you live to be a thousand. Then again, some of us read other languages than English, and what has and what hasn't been translated into these does not always overlap. E.g., you have no idea how many books have been translated from Chinese into Russian that are no longer available in Chinese because of the Cultural Revolution and other book-unfriendly historic events. As just one example, the humongous ancient treatise that forms the basis of Tibetan medicine -- which has a lot of feng shui in it because it's all one snake -- I've read it in Russian into which it's been translated in the 19th century by the teacher of the dalai lama, but you can't read it in Chinese because every single copy has been destroyed since then. So, do keep this in mind, OK?..

 

Been wondering when you'd show up

[Taomeow]

Been wondering when you'd show up

 

Yeah, me too...

 

I always have mixed feelings about these threads. You know, the bread and butter (or, rather, the rice and soy sauce) of all things taoist. The basics. What I come back to again and again trying to ganying with "it all" and then am surprised that I can't ti "it all" in houtian, and then, duh, yeah right. But then I see that hardly anyone bothers with studying the basics, and it shows and shows and shows. And you know how fruitful it is to "go there," the things you find! The art, the inspiration, the it-all-makes-senseness of it all! Speaking of making sense... I'm also usually surprised to see hundreds of diagrams out there and very few of them "quite right." E.g., if they are going to split it into time periods, how about a Chinese day-night unit has 12 hours, each comprised of 2 "our" hours, the first part yang, the second yin, and they give you a diagram that adds up to 10 -- so I start thinking, should I say something? -- then I see the discussion in full swing going god only knows where more often than not (ChiDragon, you are an inspiration for my silence more often than not, thank you, you're gonna make a sage out of me one of these days, a silent non-doing one, because as soon as you touch a thread having anything to do with the basics I drop my cup of coffee on my keyboard and my keyboard on my lap and my lap into a kneeling position of prayer -- Merciful Quan Yin, send him a teacher!)

 

Anyway...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for relating that explanation Taomeow.

 

That Russian book sounds great.

 

Any comparable English books you can recommend here?

[mYTHmAKER]

Yeah, me too...

Anyway...

 

Did you check out my diagram - post #22

Mock up for a new series

There's a lot of info in there

[dawei]

I just don't want to go into an unnecessary lengthy argument which leads us nowhere. Nothing personal....

Meaning... you want others to change their minds to your thinking... but you do not want to spend any time to consider to change your mind...

 

Both minds are made up, yes? Why only make a point that another's mind is made up... your's is also... let's talk truthfully.

[ChiDragon]

Well, this thread is not about Feng Shui. It is about Ba Gua and trigrams. Feng Shui should be moved to another thread as its own.

Edited March 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

(ChiDragon, you are an inspiration for my silence more often than not, thank you, you're gonna make a sage out of me one of these days, a silent non-doing one, because as soon as you touch a thread having anything to do with the basics I drop my cup of coffee on my keyboard and my keyboard on my lap and my lap into a kneeling position of prayer -- Merciful Quan Yin, send him a teacher!)

 

Anyway...

 

I am not trying to run away from the subject on Feng Shui. What I am doing here is to let people know that one must study Yi Jing as a prerequisite before go into Feng Shui. The Yi Jing involves the Yin-Yang, trigrams, Ba Gua, He Tu and Luo Shu. Before anyone jumps into Feng Shui, one should understand these items individually. Mainly is why the Early Day(Heaven) BA Gua was drown that way and how it was evolved into the Later Day Ba Gua. It is because the Feng Shui concept was mainly developed by laying the Later Day Ba Gua over the Luo Shu.

 

IMO/IME If someone start talking about Feng Shui and knew nothing about the Ba Gua in the Yi Jing, then one doesn't know Feng Shui. Period.

 

That is why I am spending so much time here on the Ba Gua(s).

 

The general concept on Feng Shui(Wind and Water) is just common sense. Feng Shui is mainly to help someone to select a good and natural environment for a comfortable living. Why do we call it 風水(Feng Shui)...??? It is because the wind and water do have a great influence in our daily life. If you talk to an American Indian, he will tell you where and how to place his teepee because he knew all about the wind and water.

 

An Indian will place his teepee where the water goes around it to assure that his teepee does not wash away by flood; and have the entrance of the teepee facing the South to assure that the cold wind from the North does not below into the teepee. Indeed, the Chinese Feng Shui system was based on this simple concept. This concept was laid out in the Ba Gua. The Ba Gua tells more about the universe and the geographic environment of a region than just the wind and water. In order to determine an accurate Feng Shui interpretation, there is an instrument called 羅盤(luo2 pan2) with the Early Day Ba Gua and a compass place in the center to find the correct direction and geographic layout of the region being investigate.

Edited March 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Sloppy Zhang]

So, something I've always wondered....

 

What happens when you go to the southern hemisphere? Do all the directions and stuff get switched?

 

Sure North American Indians may have come up with similar systems to the Chinese and north and south and the directions/origins of cold/warm winds.... but what about South American Indians? Native people living in equatorial regions? African cultures? Indigenous people of Australia?

[Taomeow]

Did you check out my diagram - post #22

Mock up for a new series

There's a lot of info in there

 

Thank you, very nice!

 

If you're starting a new series (look forward to it!), not to impose on your artistic will or anything but just a thought... your diagram suggests a yang-qi flow on the outside (clockwise spirals) -- asking for a mirroring diagram of yin-qi flow (counterclockwise spirals) -- a sister painting? There's an approach to xiantian-houtian interactions that suggests xiantian is not really static (a view a bit shocking even for me, but classical) despite its perfect balance, that it is upheld in this state by a backward flow of qi in the counterclockwise direction folding it all inward, accumulating tremendous potential power inside. In the realm of humans, this corresponds to the prenatal development, with its inward flow and silent, invisible growth -- silent and invisible but not static. The flow of qi to a fetus in the womb (mirroring and rotation) streams counterclockwise from particular trigrams of the Earlier Heaven as it passes through stages of its development, absorbing and embodying the properties of each as it goes, as well as going through all the Nine Palaces of the Magic Square (one per month) and internalizing their numbers (or flying/floating stars, as they are otherwise known, cosmic energies forming the "number" that is an actual pattern of qi rather than merely an abstract symbol). Fun stuff!

[Taomeow]

I am not trying to run away from the subject on Feng Shui. What I am doing here is to let people know that one must study Yi Jing as a prerequisite before go into Feng Shui. The Yi Jing involves the Yin-Yang, trigrams, Ba Gua, He Tu and Luo Shu. Before anyone jumps into Feng Shui, one should understand these items individually. Mainly is why the Early Day(Heaven) BA Gua was drown that way and how it was evolved into the Later Day Ba Gua. It is because the Feng Shui concept was mainly developed by laying the Later Day Ba Gua over the Luo Shu.

 

IMO/IME If someone start talking about Feng Shui and knew nothing about the Ba Gua in the Yi Jing, then one doesn't know Feng Shui. Period.

 

That is why I am spending so much time here on the Ba Gua(s).

 

The general concept on Feng Shui(Wind and Water) is just common sense. Feng Shui is mainly to help someone to select a good and natural environment for a comfortable living. Why do we call it 風水(Feng Shui)...??? It is because the wind and water do have a great influence in our daily life. If you talk to an American Indian, he will tell you where and how to place his teepee because he knew all about the wind and water.

 

An Indian will place his teepee where the water goes around it to assure that his teepee does not wash away by flood; and have the entrance of the teepee facing the South to assure that the cold wind from the North does not below into the teepee. Indeed, the Chinese Feng Shui system was based on this simple concept. This concept was laid out in the Ba Gua. The Ba Gua tells more about the universe and the geographic environment of a region than just the wind and water. In order to determine an accurate Feng Shui interpretation, there is an instrument called 羅盤(luo2 pan2) with the Early Day Ba Gua and a compass place in the center to find the correct direction and geographic layout of the region being investigate.

 

(drops her cup of coffee on her keyboard, etc.)

[ChiDragon]

So, something I've always wondered....

 

What happens when you go to the southern hemisphere? Do all the directions and stuff get switched?

 

Sure North American Indians may have come up with similar systems to the Chinese and north and south and the directions/origins of cold/warm winds.... but what about South American Indians? Native people living in equatorial regions? African cultures? Indigenous people of Australia?

Yes, if one understood the basic concepts, things do have to be changed around in different regions. That is why Feng Shui is environmental. The present 羅盤(luo2 pan2) was designed for the Chinese region. The Early Day Ba Gua has to be rearranged in order to fit a particular region.

 

There was one case, a student from Australia did ask his teacher in China about the how the Luo Pan should be facing. The teacher told him to turn it around(180 degrees). There was one question in my mind at the time when I read that. The four corner trigrams are the geographical layout of China. I don't know did his teacher has considered or not before he told his student. However, we can find that out from the geography of Australia.

 

Very good...!!! If people start to question about what they'd read and learned, it is time to get wise....

Edited March 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

Thanks for relating that explanation Taomeow.

 

That Russian book sounds great.

 

Any comparable English books you can recommend here?

 

I've been recommending Elizabeth Moran/Val Biktashev's "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Feng Shui" to all beginners for years, despite the idiotic title that is likely to spook off people who take themselves and their studies seriously. It was the first book that spelled out the basics for me many, many moons ago, and I still find that its forte is that it is systematic and goes over all the fundamental notions of taoism (albeit in passing on occasion) without skipping any of the essentials before proceeding to practicalities. Elizabeth is a student of Joseph Yu, who is a serious xuan kong feng shui master (very expensive), and her guide's second edition was revised by him and got rid of a whole bunch of bugs and inaccuracies that were present in the first edition. Val comes from a direct lineage going way back, to pre-taoist Siberian masters if he's telling the truth, which I have no reason to doubt, considering the quality of his work. So, I wouldn't hesitate recommending this one to anyone who wants to get a systematic approach to taoist cosmology, ideology and physiology (which is what feng shui really is, contrary to what you may have heard from pop sources referenced by QiDragon) going in the right direction.

 

There's a few other nice beginner's guides out there (if you steer clear of the Lin Yun/Sarah Rossbach/Black Hat/Black Sect Buddhist etc. "western" FS) but they all have their drawbacks -- a bit too dry (Eva Wong's), a bit too advanced for a beginner (David Twicken's), a bit too popsy (Lilian Too's), quite a bit inaccurate (most of the rest). Of course I might be missing something.

[mYTHmAKER]

Thank you, very nice!

 

If you're starting a new series (look forward to it!), not to impose on your artistic will or anything but just a thought... your diagram suggests a yang-qi flow on the outside (clockwise spirals) -- asking for a mirroring diagram of yin-qi flow (counterclockwise spirals) -- a sister painting? There's an approach to xiantian-houtian interactions that suggests xiantian is not really static (a view a bit shocking even for me, but classical) despite its perfect balance, that it is upheld in this state by a backward flow of qi in the counterclockwise direction folding it all inward, accumulating tremendous potential power inside. In the realm of humans, this corresponds to the prenatal development, with its inward flow and silent, invisible growth -- silent and invisible but not static. The flow of qi to a fetus in the womb (mirroring and rotation) streams counterclockwise from particular trigrams of the Earlier Heaven as it passes through stages of its development, absorbing and embodying the properties of each as it goes, as well as going through all the Nine Palaces of the Magic Square (one per month) and internalizing their numbers (or flying/floating stars, as they are otherwise known, cosmic energies forming the "number" that is an actual pattern of qi rather than merely an abstract symbol). Fun stuff!

 

Don't have or want artistic will - i want to follow

Ah the gathering before the expansion/explosion/strike/

I do know that nothing is static but I'm not advanced at this point to find the expression.

Counterclockwise spirals would indicate a return to the source and these are supposedly coming and are the source.

I will meditate on your suggestions.

The one shown - not finished - is a combination of Early and Later Heaven

The inner square emphasizes the idea the sitting/waiting for the show to begin of Early Heaven

The outside forms are Later Heaven and move clockwise to indicate expansion.

I do have others which show them by themselves.

Any other ideas are welcome to expand my little mind.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Cool, I'll pick that one up (maybe the title is like the small door in a Channoyu tea house..? )

 

Any thoughts on Jerry Alan Johnston's book on Form Feng Shui?

[寒月 Hanyue]

Interesting stuff, thanks Taomeow

 

Best,

[Cameron]

I did a Feng Shui class with David Twicken years ago. Nice guy, he has a very laid back approach to Taoist practice.

 

I remember asking him that I heard if you get a good level at Taoist alchemy you can sort of 'overcome' these astrological influences to a degree. And so wouldn't time be better spent cultivating and not worrying about astrology.

 

He agreed yes but we need all the help we can get! Nice answer.

 

I think he also said that in his view the spiritual awakening of Buddhism and Immortality of Taoism were the same thing. Just different paths to the same mountain top.

 

I know others views might differ in regard.

[ChiDragon]

Let's get back on course....

 

The evolution of the Early Day Ba Gua to the Later Day Ba Gua was based on the reaction of the corresponding trigrams. There are four directional trigrams and four corner trigrams. The four directional trigrams are only using one line to react with the complementary trigram across from each other. The four corner trigrams are using two lines to react between the top and bottom trigrams on the left and right sides.

[Taomeow]

Thank you, Snowmonki.

 

Cool, I'll pick that one up (maybe the title is like the small door in a Channoyu tea house..? )

 

Any thoughts on Jerry Alan Johnston's book on Form Feng Shui?

 

I haven't read it, not really familiar with his work except in passing, but from the little I've seen he's got some interesting stuff.

[Taomeow]

I did a Feng Shui class with David Twicken years ago. Nice guy, he has a very laid back approach to Taoist practice.

Nice. I have his book on the Water Dragon method somewhere.

 

I remember asking him that I heard if you get a good level at Taoist alchemy you can sort of 'overcome' these astrological influences to a degree. And so wouldn't time be better spent cultivating and not worrying about astrology.

 

He agreed yes but we need all the help we can get! Nice answer.

 

Well, top notch cultivation will "reveal" things that feng shui and astrology will take you through step by step, at some point advanced cultivation meets advanced feng shui, key word "advanced." But feng shui IS cultivation by other means -- it develops your ling, "supernatural intelligence," gradually but surely.

 

I was rather blown away when a taoist TCM doctor in China looked at me for a minute and muttered "Wood with Fire" -- which I know from my astrological chart. I doublechecked -- does he mean a "diagnosis" of sorts? No, "the type," inner feng shui, inner climate. What you were born to be. That's astrology on sight. Don't tell me "anyone" who's dabbled in cultivation can do that, 'cause I know for a fact no dabbler can, and no beginner. So feng shui and astrology are a bit of a shortcut to knowledge that you would perhaps get by other means by investing much more time and effort. (The doctor used to practice MA for 8 hours daily and study and qigong and meditate and work assisting his teachers most of the rest of the time.)

I think he also said that in his view the spiritual awakening of Buddhism and Immortality of Taoism were the same thing. Just different paths to the same mountain top.

 

I know others views might differ in regard.

Yeah, because taoism I know and love ain't no climber's ambition toward any mountain top. But that's the nice thing about feng shui -- it functions to your benefit regardless of what you believe in. 'cause, you know, it's not a belief system. At all. (I mean the real thing of course, pop feng shui is, obviously).

[joeblast]

Let's get back on course....

 

The evolution of the Early Day Ba Gua to the Later Day Ba Gua was based on the reaction of the corresponding trigrams. There are four directional trigrams and four corner trigrams. The four directional trigrams are only using one line to react with the complementary trigram across from each other. The four corner trigrams are using two lines to react between the top and bottom trigrams on the left and right sides.

where was I that I saw these two old men looking at the innards of a building, one pointing up and saying to the other "yeahp, theah's the centah beam"

[Cameron]

 

I was rather blown away when a taoist TCM doctor in China looked at me for a minute and muttered "Wood with Fire" -- which I know from my astrological chart. I doublechecked -- does he mean a "diagnosis" of sorts? No, "the type," inner feng shui, inner climate. What you were born to be. That's astrology on sight. Don't tell me "anyone" who's dabbled in cultivation can do that, 'cause I know for a fact no dabbler can, and no beginner. So feng shui and astrology are a bit of a shortcut to knowledge that you would perhaps get by other means by investing much more time and effort. (The doctor used to practice MA for 8 hours daily and study and qigong and meditate and work assisting his teachers most of the rest of the time.)

 

 

 

Yeah interesting. Max does this. He says when I first met him I was fire. Then switched to the opposite and became water. Then when in Hawaii he said we were all air element.

 

Last time he said my mind was fire and body earth, lol. So in the system I practice I don't find getting attached to the elemental makeup or trying to control them that interesting. Though of course it is interesting and cool if your naturally drawn to go deeper into it.

 

I have no idea myself if Taoist Immortality and Buddhist Awakening are the same thing. Some other teachers that I respect say it certainly is. While others do make the distinctions.

 

Are their any records from ancient China of a Buddha and Immortal having a conversation? Now that would be something cool to read

[Cameron]

Since we are talking Taomeow one of my Chinese hiking friends taught me a saying in Chinese after hiking the Great Wall last weekend "everything is nothing". My grasp of basic Mandarin is developing at a slugs pace so remembering all the cool stuff will take awhile.

 

It of course sounds very Buddhist, the first line of the Heart Sutra "Form is emptines, emptiness is form."

 

I suspect your understanding is different, yes?