Genuine Schools

[Lucky7Strikes]

I have no doubt of that and I did not intend to imply that I think he is a fraud or to challenge his attainment.

I was exploring the whole idea of spiritual authority.

The very act of delegating authority to another in spiritual matters warrants careful consideration.

Spirituality is the inner exploration.

While most of us need a path of some sort for a time, once we accept an authority and adopt their answers as our own, we close ourselves off.

I was curious as to who we are willing to accept as our spiritual authorities and whose definition of Enlightenment we are willing to adopt.

This is very insightful. Thank you.

[Thunder_Gooch]

More Pie. I'm glad you have explained your aim. It helps understanding why you view things the way you do. You have a goal and are single minded in its pursuit, that is admirable. My only point is that to think that someone who is not pursuing the same thing as yourself is wrong or falling short of the mark, is well, a bit odd from my point of view. But I'm not you, and you're not me. I hope you get your plot of land.

 

All the best,

 

I think most of the time spiritual seekers don't know what they want. Most schools don't promise any results. Seekers don't accomplish anything as a result. This isn't a problem at all, who cares if they enjoy the ride, it's their ride to enjoy any way they want. It's all about the ride for most people, and hey that's perfectly fine. If practicing some spiritual practice brings you enjoyment and happiness that is perfectly acceptable.

 

 

`Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?'

 

`That depends a good deal on where you want to get to,' said the Cat.

 

`I don't much care where--' said Alice.

 

`Then it doesn't matter which way you go,' said the Cat.

 

`--so long as I get SOMEWHERE,' Alice added as an explanation.

 

`Oh, you're sure to do that,' said the Cat

 

Alice In Wonderland - Linda Woolverton/Lewis Carroll

 

 

 

However if you have a specific goal for your practice, then it only makes sense to be certain the school you are investing so much of your time into can deliver as promised.

 

Just my $0.02

Edited March 17, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[doc benway]

I don't necessarily disagree with your post. Nan Huai Chins books not only deal with the theory of Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, but also deal with the practical aspects of actual cultivation and seeing truth (especially his books Working Toward Enlightenment and To Realize Enlightenment.) His books start to really make sense when you actually reach the levels of meditation and insight he discusses.

Maybe I'll check one of those out, thanks.

 

 

 

I don't really buy that. It's become cliche on here for everyone to automatically dismiss the teachings of the different traditions, so that it won't challenge their current paradigm; without actually proving if they lead to the intended result. A lot of the time on here, it's just arrogance and self-pride disguised as an agnostic view point or being pragmatic. Of course, I'm not advocating blind faith either, but going beyond our own limited outlook based off of preconceived notions and emotional opinions...Using cultivation in a scientific manner in order to see if what the different traditions promise as their results is valid.

I'm certainly not advocating a dismissal of teachings, especially if that has the effect of preserving an existing paradigm, intentional or otherwise. The teachings of most credible traditions have great value (and generally converge). I agree with you regarding transcending our preconceived notions and conditioning and this is what I was referring to with respect to needing a path in the beginning. I agree with using cultivation in a "scientific" manner as well. My point is more that we need to critically evaluate any teachings we are subscribing to, investigate personally and thoroughly with an open mind, do the work for ourselves, and avoid getting too attached to and dependent on others' guidance. We even need to abandon our gurus at some point on our path. They can only take us so far. Accepting others' answers as our own because someone has declared them enlightened is a slippery slope. We need to do the work ourselves, critically evaluate what it is doing for our lives with an open mind, and take responsibility for our journey.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Do you mean to say that you cultivate in no small ways? An hour here...a few minutes there...on days off from work? Heck, how about cultivating at work, even at a desk job?

 

What would that accomplish? Like going to the gym for 10 minutes twice a week, it would just a waste of time for me unless I could make a full commitment.

 

My environment sucks so I am working to change it. Thats the number one priority right now and I'm closer than I've ever been to it.

[doc benway]

What would that accomplish? Like going to the gym for 10 minutes twice a week, it would just a waste of time for me unless I could make a full commitment.

 

My environment sucks so I am working to change it. Thats the number one priority right now and I'm closer than I've ever been to it.

I fully agree with RV - cultivation is an ongoing process.

A full commitment means to work at it all the time, under any circumstances, not only when certain conditions are met.

No conditions are necessary - unless of course if you are attached to a specific idea of what cultivation is and what is necessary to begin and continue. That is a trap that many people fall into, even at fairly high levels.

Rather than work to change your environment, begin to do the work to look at yourself.

That does not exclude continuing to work to change your environment if you choose but it is NOT the environment that needs changing. What needs changing is the idea that you need to do something to change the environment.

There is nothing wrong with the environment, it is just as it must be at this moment.

If you don't see this, your commitment will be very flimsy indeed.

[寒月 Hanyue]

First of all, love the Alice in Wonderland quote Very apt, and oh so true.

 

You see, I agree with you 100% in this post, especially;

 

"However if you a specific goal for your practice, then it only makes sense to be certain the school you are investing so much of your time into can deliver as promised."

 

My only point being, that while YOU need to find the lineage that can aid you in the pursuit of YOUR GOAL, so does everyone else. And who said anyone elses goal is any better or worse than yours? And no I don't just mean that "well its fun, and you know I get so stressed in the wek so like it's er my aim to be less, 'scatty'"

 

As a result we have a multitude of traditions (ignoring the watered down lines that always emerge).

 

Knowing where you want to go is an important step in navigating, having a map to help you get there is also important. It is also vitally important to know WHERE on the map you are NOW, so you can head in the right direction.

 

Personally I am most interested in a lineage that helps me figure out the last thing. Then I'll worry about where to go from there

 

All the best,

 

 

I think most of the time spiritual seekers don't know what they want. Most schools don't promise any results. Seekers don't accomplish anything as a result. This isn't a problem at all, who cares if they enjoy the ride, it's their ride to enjoy any way they want. It's all about the ride for most people, and hey that's perfectly fine. If practicing some spiritual practice brings you enjoyment and happiness that is perfectly acceptable.

 

However if you a specific goal for your practice, then it only makes sense to be certain the school you are investing so much of your time into can deliver as promised.

 

Just my $0.02

[Thunder_Gooch]

Well I've met a lot of people who work full time and cultivate part time, they just wind up going nowhere fast.

 

You either make a full time commitment or you go nowhere.

 

I guess if I really wanted to get serious I could get a tent and camp on forest service and hope I don't get caught by a game warden or DNR/FWS/TVA and live as a vagrant, squatting off the land, but I've decided there is a minimal level of comfort I am willing to accept.

 

I want running water and electricity and camper and acre of land, that's about as minimal as I want to get.

 

Right now I am working 2 jobs and saving every penny I can. I am at work now typing a response in between customers.

 

It's just my way of doing things, one step at a time.

 

If it's a trap I guess I'm trapped. It seems very pragmatic, and makes good logical sense to me.

 

 

 

 

I fully agree with RV - cultivation is an ongoing process.

A full commitment means to work at it all the time, under any circumstances, not only when certain conditions are met.

No conditions are necessary - unless of course if you are attached to a specific idea of what cultivation is and what is necessary to begin and continue. That is a trap that many people fall into, even at fairly high levels.

Rather than work to change your environment, begin to do the work to look at yourself.

That does not exclude continuing to work to change your environment if you choose but it is NOT the environment that needs changing. What needs changing is the idea that you need to do something to change the environment.

There is nothing wrong with the environment, it is just as it must be at this moment.

If you don't see this, your commitment will be very flimsy indeed.

Edited March 18, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[suninmyeyes]

I fully agree with RV - cultivation is an ongoing process.

A full commitment means to work at it all the time, under any circumstances, not only when certain conditions are met.

No conditions are necessary - unless of course if you are attached to a specific idea of what cultivation is and what is necessary to begin and continue. That is a trap that many people fall into, even at fairly high levels.

Rather than work to change your environment, begin to do the work to look at yourself.

That does not exclude continuing to work to change your environment if you choose but it is NOT the environment that needs changing. What needs changing is the idea that you need to do something to change the environment.

There is nothing wrong with the environment, it is just as it must be at this moment.

If you don't see this, your commitment will be very flimsy indeed.

Yes to this.

Cultivation is all the time, if 'you'forget start again. Keep sobering up no matter what.

Cultivation can be of breath, mind, actions , keeping in mind certain inspirational texts all day long and coming back to it for a deeper insight etc.. Cultivating behaviour towards myself and towards others and enviroment so that it is just right for the situation that arises.

If having two jobs is hard for cultivation and enviroment is not right just now, how will a person become open enough to embrace all humanity and nature in all its diversty with all her madness? How will tolerance be developed?

These shortcomings are the actual secret tools for cultivation. Secret in a way that they are not so obvious always. More we are put up against - more we open up and get really cultured.

Edited March 18, 2012 by suninmyeyes

[de_paradise]

I dont find fault in MPG's plan or that he cant cultivate much by working two jobs, he does seem to have his goals exceedingly clear and not just paying lip service. Things take time to pan out. As far as genuine schools, they come into existence, and go out of existence, the masters don't die and the information doesnt go away, but it may be kept in the higher levels. Probably hundreds of years ago, probably thousands, the whole search for the genuine school complaint was the same, and rooting around the corners of the earth. I agree with the whole work on yourself with the information you got, because there's more than enough information out there. And well, since its all one information field conspiring to help you evolve, within the auspices of a school xyz or not, the potentialities are fairly unlimited.

[tulku]

My training is on hold because I can't devote enough time and work full time+. I have two jobs right now.

 

Soon I should have an acre of land and a camper. There are some other basics I need after that but once in place I do plan on focusing on working only part time, college, and training full time.

 

My environment isn't conducive to the lifestyle I want to lead so I am working my damnedest to change it.

 

My friends bug me a lot about not going to China to retreats or whatever, I am like why would I? I am a an unworthy student at this moment in time. Why would I bother a real master in the condition I am right now.

 

I hope to change this in the future when I can afford only to work part time.

 

to be frank with you pie guy

 

i think you are making excuses to hold off your training..

 

i was once like you.. thinking i have to make some money first or get married to a supporting partner and buy a house, a car, etc etc .. you know get all the financial and moral support for my training first before actually going through my training..

 

well guess what life doesn't work that way.. the universe doesn't work that way..

 

for any practitioner to achieve attainments.. he has to be ready to go through any and all hardships.. he has to be ready to sacrifice anything and everything to reach enlightenment.. if that means living on the streets as a beggar begging for scraps in the daytime and meditating in the night-time, then so be it...

 

with that said.. our world has evolved to such a stage that one doesn't need to be a street beggar in order to cultivate... there are thousands of monasteries all over the world which doesn't require anything for you to join and be a monk..

 

sure these monasteries may require you to put in a few hours of work to do maintenance work for the monastery but on the whole.. these monasteries will give you a whole lot more time for you to meditate and cultivate than if you hold two jobs in the material world..

 

because with the way things are going right now.. i think the world may end before you ever get anywhere near saving enough for the acre of land and that camper..

 

my advice to you would be join a local monastery.. or a foreign one.. you can study the language of your choice of foreign monastery while living there as a monk while at the same time getting free food and board with meditation time..

 

worst come to worst.. go teach english part-time in an asian country while living and meditating in a monastery..

 

the world does not have much time left and i can assure you this world will end around dec 21 by the end of this year so if i were you, i would push forward with my cultivation in double quick time..

 

PS you mentioned special legitimate schools.. well trust me.. if you dedicate yourself to the basic meditation knowledge found in the public domain while living as a monk.. you will find yourself as a disciple in that legitimate school much faster than if you were to hold two jobs saving up for that acre of land and camper..

 

in fact, i dare bet everything i have that you will never find yourself to be part of a legitimate school if you continue to waste time and energy working 2 jobs.. the universe will never open that door for you if you aren't ready to give up everything..

 

this is the harsh lesson which i am being punished for right now.. i had to learn to be ready to give up everything on my path/fight to reach enlightenment before that special door actually opens..

Edited March 18, 2012 by tulku

[tulku]

this is nature of the game which the universe has created for us..

 

the universe and higher dimensional beings will continually prod us and test us for cracks in our resolve to attain enlightenment..

 

this is why more likely than not.. guys like pie guy and me are not born with silver spoons in our mouths.. we were born onto a path with so many obstacles blocking our spiritual progress that more often than not it seems impossible for us to reach enlightenment..

 

yet these obstacles can easily be removed if the higher dimensional beings can lend a hand.. however one has to go to the extremes in order to force these higher dimensional beings to help you with your spiritual progress.. whether it be through getting more money so that you have a more comfortable place to meditate in or finding a legitimate teacher willing to teach you the real techniques..

 

so you have to be ready to give up everything.. your spouse, your children, your parents, your family, friends, career, cars, houses, money.. hell you have to be ready to give up your life if it needs be to show these higher dimensional beings that you mean business about reaching enlightenment..

 

more than one practitioner has been thwarted in their spiritual progress by their spouse or girlfriend.. why do you think that is so?

[Friend]

[tulku]

hey friend, with all due respect..

 

Confucius's sayings about all the family and country bs is all a bunch of hogwash..

 

pie guy is already determined to cut off the cycle of rebirth and death so why do you pile more illusions upon him like "family" and "country"?

 

you should know that "family" and "country" are nothing more than illusionary extensions of our ego.. our minds create the definitions of what is or what is not "country" or "family"..

 

also i have posted some great tips for pie guy to chew upon if he is really serious about spiritual attainments.. telling him to go on living in normal society is only going to detract him from his goals..

[3bob]

Btw, this string was started with a "4th way" reference which is also termed the way of the "sly man" or one who more or less transmutes anywhere, anytime and anything without needing to be stuck with a particular form. (such as the ways of the fakir, monk, or yogi, that is if I remember correctly)

Edited March 18, 2012 by 3bob

[Friend]

hey friend, with all due respect..

 

Confucius's sayings about all the family and country bs is all a bunch of hogwash..

 

pie guy is already determined to cut off the cycle of rebirth and death so why do you pile more illusions upon him like "family" and "country"?

 

you should know that "family" and "country" are nothing more than illusionary extensions of our ego.. our minds create the definitions of what is or what is not "country" or "family"..

 

also i have posted some great tips for pie guy to chew upon if he is really serious about spiritual attainments.. telling him to go on living in normal society is only going to detract him from his goals..

 

You know that Confucius say a lot of thing, Buddha said a lot of things, me sayed a lot of things. It depends how you use it it is the basic of rhetorics of how interpretate things.

Since you said "family and country" are "extensions of Ego" the goal I see in Confucius saying is to work on oneself as Country and family are mathematics where you derivate a function using differential and integral.

Also I key I see in Confucius is one has the power by changing oneself one change the enviroment. It is like some famous theory which name I repressed about a butterfly making a wing clap cause a tornado somewehre in the world. And also I interpret that ones action is move a lot in the universe.

[Simple_Jack]

Who and where did you learn Mahamudra teachings?

 

The six yogas of Naropa is taught only to initiates who have gone through extensive preparation. You can't learn it from a book.

 

 

Isn't it contradictory to have realized anatta and emptiness and yet strive for personal attainments or purification of such thing as the body? Shouldn't everything be, the nirvana or samasara arising, treated equally as it arises as one taste? If you reside in the ultimate, the relative, such thing as purification or transformation, should cease to guide your actions. If the relative still sways your direction in life, then you haven't yet fully discarded your personality or desires for preservation or escaping from samsara.

LOL! It's awesome how predictable you are! Though you'd say the same of me, LOL!

 

It's funny how even though you do not have a truly deep understanding of the Buddha-Dharma: Yet you still try to debate on such matters you really don't comprehend. Even to the point of trying to reinterpret the teachings (based off of misunderstanding) like there's some need for you to prove me wrong.

 

You're an intelligent person for sure, but having intelligence does not equate to having prajna wisdom. You should remember this when responding to posts:

 

"If one is attached to the swamp of debate, it is the māra of the afflictions. "

-- Tantra of The Great Self-liberated Vidyā

 

P.S. I'm sure you know where I got that quote from

[Lucky7Strikes]

LOL! It's awesome how predictable you are! Though you'd say the same of me, LOL!

 

It's funny how even though you do not have a truly deep understanding of the Buddha-Dharma: Yet you still try to debate on such matters you really don't comprehend. Even to the point of trying to reinterpret the teachings (based off of misunderstanding) like there's some need for you to prove me wrong.

 

You're an intelligent person for sure, but having intelligence does not equate to having prajna wisdom. You should remember this when responding to posts:

 

"If one is attached to the swamp of debate, it is the māra of the afflictions. "

-- Tantra of The Great Self-liberated Vidyā

 

P.S. I'm sure you know where I got that quote from

Nice reply there. It displays your oh awesome wisdom so well. . If you don't want to have discussion/debates (there's really not much of a difference) then don't post here anymore. It's a discussion forum, not a circle jerk on how great Buddhism is or how high your understanding of the dharma is.

 

But really answer my questions if you can. Where exactly did you learn Mahamudra teachings?

 

And also if you are striving for purification, you have not realized the effortless direct perception that liberates upon arising. You have to thoroughly see the absence of personality and of any duality between samsaric dirt or nirvanic purity.

 

If you disagree, then write it out with your own words. You just sound immature replying like that above. I think you're high on spiritual pride when you present your own level of understandings by belittling others. Instead of claiming you have direct insight into the nature of reality, you should do more insight meditation into your personality and your behavior.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Simple_Jack]

Maybe I'll check one of those out, thanks.

 

 

 

 

I'm certainly not advocating a dismissal of teachings, especially if that has the effect of preserving an existing paradigm, intentional or otherwise. The teachings of most credible traditions have great value (and generally converge). I agree with you regarding transcending our preconceived notions and conditioning and this is what I was referring to with respect to needing a path in the beginning. I agree with using cultivation in a "scientific" manner as well. My point is more that we need to critically evaluate any teachings we are subscribing to, investigate personally and thoroughly with an open mind, do the work for ourselves, and avoid getting too attached to and dependent on others' guidance. We even need to abandon our gurus at some point on our path. They can only take us so far. Accepting others' answers as our own because someone has declared them enlightened is a slippery slope. We need to do the work ourselves, critically evaluate what it is doing for our lives with an open mind, and take responsibility for our journey.

I agree in a lot of ways. Especially with the part about keeping an open mind and doing the work for ourselves in order to see if the teachings are just make believe or not.

 

I'm not talking about though just "accepting others answers as our own because someone declared them enlightened." This is the behavior prevalent on this board that will limit an individual, will be the opposite of keeping an open mind and is an excuse to automatically write something off just because it doesn't fit with their current view.

 

That kind of behavior will in fact be a detrimental effect to what the purpose of the teachings are. Instead of being a more open, more humble individual; a person who is less self-centered; fearlessly and flexibly able to adapt to the flow of changing conditions; to truly be "free" in each changing circumstance we face in our lives....They will be just as constricted and contrived in all their activities which isn't a help to themselves or anyone else.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Nice reply there. It displays your oh awesome wisdom so well. . If you don't want to have discussion/debates (there's really not much of a difference) then don't post here anymore. It's a discussion forum, not a circle jerk on how great Buddhism is or how high your understanding of the dharma is.

 

But really answer my questions if you can. Where exactly did you learn Mahamudra teachings?

 

And also if you are striving for purification, you have not realized the effortless direct perception that liberates upon arising. You have to thoroughly see the absence of personality and of any duality between samsaric dirt or nirvanic purity.

 

If you disagree, then write it out with your own words. You just sound immature replying like that above. I think you're high on spiritual pride when you present your own level of understandings by belittling others. Instead of claiming you have direct insight into the nature of reality, you should do more insight meditation into your personality and your behavior.

LOL! It's all in the eye of the beholder, correct?

[Lucky7Strikes]

LOL! It's all in the eye of the beholder, correct?

Yeah, you are a phony. A spiritual materialist at best. Someone who uses his knowledge of spiritual matters to fill in one's own insecurities.

 

I don't see why you can't just answer a few questions. Why is it so hard to tell us where and how you learned the mahamudra teachings that gives you this deep understanding of the dharma?

 

And I'll just copy and paste this:

 

"Isn't it contradictory to have realized anatta and emptiness and yet strive for personal attainments or purification of such thing as the body? Shouldn't everything be, the nirvana or samasara arising, treated equally as it arises as one taste? If you reside in the ultimate, the relative, such thing as purification or transformation, should cease to guide your actions. If the relative still sways your direction in life, then you haven't yet fully discarded your personality or desires for preservation or escaping from samsara."

Edited March 18, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

I'm not talking about though just "accepting others answers as our own because someone declared them enlightened." This is the behavior prevalent on this board that will limit an individual, will be the opposite of keeping an open mind and is an excuse to automatically write something off just because it doesn't fit with their current view.

No it's not a behavior prevalent on this board. A lot of people on this board are individual practitioners who rely more on their self knowledge and experiences than any dogma or religion. This is just your illusion. People here don't write things off. You're talking more about yourself than people on thetaobums.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

There is nothing wrong with the environment, it is just as it must be at this moment.

If you don't see this, your commitment will be very flimsy indeed.

 

For me, I've had a really inconducive place to practice.. cars smashing into a speed bump outside, paper thin walls and ceiling. When I practice somewhere quiet or late at night it seems more productive, but I also have developed some strengths and resilience due to this environment.

 

When they put in a speed bump I realized "I can either let this drive me nuts or use it to my advantage" and no sudden noise shock me anymore, and I've learned to let more environmental things go during meditation. It's still not an ideal environment, but I've gained from it nonetheless.

 

Also, having a demanding schedule forces people to stick to their practice sometimes to tolerate these demands.

 

Some change can be great though. If you've had an incredibly demanding schedule for a long time then more freedom will likely be very helpful. Having too much freedom for too long can require challenge and change too.

[konchog uma]

Harmonious Emptiness, that can be really frustrating, but it can lead to awesome practice. Something that changed my life is taking the noise of a crowded city or a screaming child or a barking dog or anything that interrupts my meditation and, with the power of the mind and spirit, transmuting it with your intentions to a vibration of spiritual purity.

 

Ideally, you can also wake up at 4 or 5 AM and sit for an hour and then go back to sleep (hehe i did that just this morning.. mmmm sundays). The atmospheric qi is best during that time anyway

 

But maybe someone else can say what that transmutation practice is called, because i don't know a name for it in chinese or sanskrit or anything that you could look up. I just know that when my neighbor decides to play her TV way too loud (i think she's losing her hearing), through the power of mind, i make no distinction between the nonsense of jersey shore and the singing of temple songs and bells. With practice, you can do this anywhere, and anytime.

 

Blessings

[3bob]

Harmonious Emptiness, that can be really frustrating, but it can lead to awesome practice. Something that changed my life is taking the noise of a crowded city or a screaming child or a barking dog or anything that interrupts my meditation and, with the power of the mind and spirit, transmuting it with your intentions to a vibration of spiritual purity.

 

Ideally, you can also wake up at 4 or 5 AM and sit for an hour and then go back to sleep (hehe i did that just this morning.. mmmm sundays). The atmospheric qi is best during that time anyway

 

But maybe someone else can say what that transmutation practice is called, because i don't know a name for it in chinese or sanskrit or anything that you could look up. I just know that when my neighbor decides to play her TV way too loud (i think she's losing her hearing), through the power of mind, i make no distinction between the nonsense of jersey shore and the singing of temple songs and bells. With practice, you can do this anywhere, and anytime.

 

Blessings

 

There are various terms for such transmutation practices which are used by many... btw, one should not take to big a bite to begin with until one gets bigger. (so to speak) I have some excellent "school" quotes along these lines somewhere,(?) maybe I'll dig them out. One example of a very powerful transmutation event is when Lord Jesus said, "forgive them Father for they not what they do".

[Thunder_Gooch]

“Spirits are bound by space and time the same way as anything that exists, but on a different level because they are part of the yin world. We ourselves are yang; they are yin.”

 

“But we have yin energy in our bodies too, right?” I asked.

 

“Correct,” he replied. “However, a pure spirit exists in a different space-time continuum than we do. One year for us is one day for them, and they are not limited by the present moment but exist in the immediate future and past as well.

 

 

“You know how in meditation we slow down our breathing and our pulse? It’s because we move more and more into our yin consciousness.”

 

“I see. But are you saying that we have two separate bodies, a yin body and a yang body, and that our consciousness can move from one to the other?”

 

“No. It is not so simple and easy as that. What I said is that everything on the earth is yang, though the earth itself is yin. We, as human beings, are yang creatures, but we have yin energy as well. It is the combination of the two that gives us life. When we die, when we cease to have life, our awareness moves to the yin state of being.” He paused. “But it does not remain unaltered in the process,” he continued.

 

“I see. Sifu, what about what we are told about the afterlife—heaven and hell, reincarnation, that sort of thing?” He was silent for a very long time and I thought that I had offended him. Finally he spoke. “I don’t know,” he said. “But you have seen so many spirits, spoken with your Master after he died, and. . . .” “I didn’t say that I haven’t had experience with life after death,” he interrupted. “What I said is that I don’t know what the final state of the afterlife is like.”

 

John lit up a cigarette. “I will tell you what I do know,” he said. “There appears to be an intermediate state between this life and the next. I call it the white wave and the black wave. The spirits of those who have been good in their lives go into the white wave, those that have been evil into the black wave. It is very much like the concepts of heaven and hell except for one thing—neither condition is permanent. At some point all spirits shoot straight up to God. What happens to them at that point, I don’t know. It depends on whom you ask, I suppose.” “You mean to say that there is a heaven and a hell?” I asked, astonished. “That’s not what I said, is it? I said that there seems to be an area characterized by a field of white yin energy into which the spirits with a positive karma enter. There they are given all that they desire, and they do desire. I have entered into the white field; people were gathered around celebrating, eating and drinking, only there was no food really present. It is all an illusion for their benefit; they just think that they are eating and drinking. Maybe they have to enjoy what they were denied in life in order to go on, I don’t know. Perhaps they think that they are still human.” “But they are not?” “No. The mental and emotional perspectives of the average spirit are very different from those of a human being.” “But not your Master’s. He looked and sounded the same dead as he did alive.”

 

 

“Yes. A spirit with even a little yang energy is very different. A spirit like my Master retains all its human characteristics.” I thought about the classic lines from the Tao Te Ching, lines that had caused so much controversy among scholars in the past: Those who retain their center endure. Those who die but continue to exist are immortal. Their meaning was clear to me at that moment. According to Taoist thought, to continue being human after death, you had to bring some of your yang energy with you. Was the “center” that the Lao Tzu referred to the dantien, which filled up with yang energy in Level One? And according to Chang Sifu, to remain completely human after death, you had to bring all your yang energy with you—that is to say, to complete Level Four. Like Liao Sifu. Like my Master. A shudder ran through me. Was evolution at play here? Was humanity no more than the breeding ground for higher spirits? I thought about how an embryo came into being: Out of millions of sperm only one became a baby. Was this the case for us also, that from a million humans only one was destined to become a hsien? And was it for entities of this sort that all the fuss was about? Or were we evolving as a species to the point where all of us could live on without our physical bodies?

 

 

 

I desperately wanted to change the subject, but there was no dodging the issue. I thought about the metaphysical “waves” of reward and penance John had spoken of. Concepts such as heaven and hell, the Elysian Fields and Hades, were as old as the human race. Were they real? “And what about the black wave?” I asked. “If you ever reach Level Four, remember that I said never to go into the black if you can help it. It is not a pleasant place. The spirits there desire, they hurt, they cry, and are denied everything; it is pitch dark, you cannot see a thing. The only good point about the black wave is that it does not last forever; after a time those spirits are freed, when their karma has been fulfilled.” “Sifu, what is karma?” “The consequence of their actions, thoughts, emotions, and desires—of their lives, if you want.” It was getting to be too much, too anthropomorphic for me to swallow, like something out of ancient mythology, or the most esoteric beliefs of the world’s major religions.

 

 

He seemed to guess my thoughts. “I don’t have any final answers for you, Kosta, no dogma to respond to the questions people have about their existence. I can only tell you what I have seen; you can choose to believe me or not. Consider me a metaphysical scientist. I have not told you anything of my own religious beliefs, and I will not.” “Why not?” “Because I don’t want to interfere with anyone’s religion,” he said. “Sifu, what you described is so . . . basic, so primitive a model that. . . .”

 

 

"It's too hard to swallow in our scientific age where everything has to be complicated and mathematical? Well, you can judge for yourself. Maybe the whole problem with our day and age is that we’ve stepped too far away from the primitive, rejecting our essential nature.” “And God, Sifu? You’ve mentioned God many times, both today and in the past. Is there really a God, a force that cares for us, the center of our existence?” “I know there is.” “Why? How do you know there is a God?” “Some other time, Kosta.”

 

Kosta Danaos - The Magus of Java

 

 

 

 

 

“I finally wound up in the jungle, along the border between Malaysia and Borneo. The closest small village was a three-day march away; I was isolated from society. I hated the place at first. When night fell, I could not see my hand in front of my face; if I tried to light a fire, so many mosquitoes came that they would eat me alive! But it was there that my teacher had insisted I go. “There was not much to eat; I had to hunt wild boar and scrounge for berries and fruit. The funny thing was that there was a tribe of Dayak natives there who harassed me and finally attacked me openly with spears, and on one occasion arrows. I pulled down a large tree and set it ablaze with my ch’i; after that they left me alone. It must have been very frightening for them. I bet they are still scaring naughty children with stories about me!” We all laughed; I could imagine John the practical joker relishing the occasion. Poor natives. “Anyway,” John continued, “it was there that I stayed and meditated, living in a cave. It rained frequently, and food was scarce. Despite that, after a month I could stand it reasonably well; after six months I did not want to leave. “In time, something very strange happened. I could spend longer and longer periods in meditation; once I did not move for eight days. And my consciousness would fly all over the world as I desired. I saw my family in their home going about their business; I saw my friends and relatives, everyone and anyone I wanted to. All I had to do was wish to see something and I was there; if I closed my eyes, actual events would flash across my mind as if I were watching television. I wrote letters to family and friends telling them what they were doing on specific days, then made the trek to the village to mail these letters to them. They were very surprised when they received them! I remember even watching them as they received these letters—seeing the look on their faces when they read what I had written. “In that mountain I saw many spirits; indeed, spirits and animals were my constant companions. And when my consciousness had expanded, I could see spirits going up regularly. One day I became curious and decided to follow them, to see where they were going. I sent my awareness out of my body and accompanied them as they went. “The earth receded below me, and somehow there was a shift; I cannot explain what I felt. I was suddenly in a wave of blackness; around me there was much pain and anger and hate and jealousy. I left that place quickly to find myself in a field of white; there I saw many spirits around me who were very joyful. Some of them were making motions as if they were eating and drinking and invited me to join in. Okay, I thought, I’d like a piece of chicken. Without warning, a tasty drumstick appeared before me; when I grabbed it, though, I saw that it was not real, that it was an illusion for the benefit of the spirits in that place who thought they were still human. Still, I saw other souls going higher and higher. I followed them through two more levels of white energy, and beyond that point I could pass no farther.” John paused, and I checked an urge to interrupt him. There were so many questions that I wanted to ask. He was, after all, describing heaven. “After a while,” John continued, “I became worried about my physical body, because I knew that time passed very differently in that place, and I had no idea how long I was gone. I decided to return to the earth. In doing so, I passed once again through the black wave. I was curious; you cannot see anything at all in that place, but you can hear the spirits moaning. So I approached one of them and asked him, ‘Hey, how are you doing?’ (Yes, Kosta, as simple as that!) He said, ‘Oh, I hurt, I’m in pain.’ Suddenly I became very afraid, and with that strong emotion I woke up back in my body.” What do you say in response to a story like that? I had heard it in short form in the past, but that had not had the impact of this longer narration. That he had called spirits before me I no longer doubted; on three separate occasions he had spoken to the shades of the dead with me as the silent witness. While I could not, as a scientist, swear in court that he was not producing an illusion for my benefit through his undeniable powers, I would have to question the motivation for producing a fraud of this sort. He certainly had no need to trick us. I did not doubt that John could make me see something that was not there should he choose, but why would he do so? I recalled the shamanistic origins of Taoist practices;14 what he had just described was very similar to the journey of the shaman into the spirit world, including the various levels. I was very sure that John had never read Joseph Campbell; he was describing what he had seen. And he gained nothing by trickery. Indeed, he sacrificed much because his powers were very real. “Is there any way of telling if someone will become a white or black spirit?” I asked.

 

 

 

 

John shot me a piercing look. “You are thinking of your father,” he said. “Well, yes, if their passage is not due to violence or accident, then usually you can tell by the look on their faces what will become of them. They get a glimpse of what lies in store for them before they completely leave our world.” My father had died with relief after fighting the cancer for half a year. Indeed, he had died consciously, waiting for all of us to gather around him before letting go of his final breath. I said as much to John. “Your father is probably a white spirit now,” he said. “But you know, because he had no yang to take with him, his nature is much simpler than you think.” “What do you mean, Sifu?” I asked. “I mean that a typical spirit is basically like our unconscious mind. He cannot think deliberately, make decisions, or create. He is subject to whatever he has brought with him.” John was silent for a time, then caught my eye and held me with his gaze. “For example,” he said, “your father can remember everything about you. He knows that you are his son. He remembers holding you in his arms when you were born. What he cannot remember is what it was like to love you.” We were shocked, all of us. “They have only yin,” he continued softly, “so what defines their continuation is simply their karma, good or bad. That is why it is so important to have yang to take with you when your time comes.” “Because that way you retain your humanity,” I whispered. John nodded approvingly. “Does having yang ch’i in our dantien somehow lessen the effects of karma?” I asked him. “No. You still have to pay for what you have done—or be rewarded. But having yang with you makes it easier all around, and more deliberate either way.” “Heaven and hell,” Andreas said. “Not really,” John answered. “None of the conditions I described is permanent. After a time all spirits return to God.” And there it was: the big question that I had danced around since I had come to know him. I could not resist. “Sifu,” I dared, “tell us about God. You mention Him frequently.” And mentioning God was not very Taoist, I thought; perhaps this was the distinction between John’s teaching and mainstream Taoism. John leaned back and looked at us one by one. “All right,” he said. “Before I went up to the mountain, in my heart of hearts, I did not really believe in God. Oh, I used to go to church every Sunday, for I am nominally a Christian, but I had no faith; I went to church matter-of-factly. When I was up in the mountain, I wanted to experience God for myself, to see if He was real or not. “I prayed and I prayed for weeks, asking God to reveal Himself to me. Finally I sat down in deep meditation and sent my awareness out as before. Every day, every moment, I kept asking, ‘God, please tell me the truth about the afterlife; which religion is correct? Please, Lord, tell me.’ I received no answer, but I kept at it with persistence. “Without warning, one day a voice boomed in the air above me. It was like a thunderclap, and it said to me: “‘Religion is like a walking stick. When you are young, you need help from your parents to walk. When you are old, you need a cane. When you are a healthy adult, you have no need for a cane; if you try to run, it will only hinder you. All religions are like that; touch God directly, and you will have no need of them.’ “I came out of meditation with a start; it was so strong and so real! I had felt the words like a vibration inside me. At first I was ecstatic, but when I tried to reach the voice again, there was no answer. So after a time I began to doubt; finally, I no longer believed that it was God, just some strong spirit having fun with me. I had had many experiences of the sort with Liao Sifu, remember, and I knew that there were many such beings out there. Finally I became very angry. I roamed around the mountaintops like a madman screaming up at heaven. “‘Talk to me, God,’ I screamed. ‘If You do not talk to me, I will not believe in You!’” John chuckled to himself. “You cannot imagine what I was like,” he said. “I was very thin because I didn’t have much to eat; my beard and hair were long because I had nothing to shave with. My clothing hung on my body, and I must have smelled very bad. I moved from times of extremely deep meditation to moments of extreme rage as if someone were throwing a switch inside me; I often sat down in the lotus position in meditation and then suddenly leapt up all in one motion to go running around the mountaintops. All that time I had only one thought in mind: to speak with the Lord God.

 

 

 

 

 

I wanted proof that He was real. “Eight days later it happened. I was in meditation at the moment and begging God to let me come to Him. Suddenly a star brightened incredibly, like a second sun, and fell out of the sky with a crash to land before me in an explosion of earth and dust. It made a huge hole and lay there, burning. A wind like a thousand hurricanes buffeted my body and shook the ground. “‘You are not yet clean enough to come to Me!’ a voice said, and I knew it was Him. “I came out of meditation with a start and opened my eyes. In front of me was a large crater in the ground. And I knew one thing in my heart that made me happy beyond belief: The voice was still with me! God was allowing me to speak with Him. “Many things I asked Him in the days that followed; I wanted to know what sort of behavior was right and what was wrong. For example, I wanted to know if fighting was okay, since I was a kung fu Master and had been in many fights. The voice told me that it was all right to defend myself, but I should never initiate aggression; many things were judged by how you felt inside. If I was afraid for my safety, I could even attack first to protect myself and my family, but there were no fine lines governing behavior; it all came down to how you felt inside. “I asked Him about hunting and killing game. I detected amusement in His voice when he answered that question, because He said: ‘You are asking Me about this because you killed a wild boar last week to eat, didn’t you? It’s okay to kill for food; all of nature is a struggle for survival. But you must never kill for sport or for pride, because all of nature belongs to God.’” John bowed his head. “Anyway, many things like that I asked Him; to some questions I received answers, to others not.” He looked up at us and smiled. Andreas broke the silence. “Sifu, are you saying that you spoke to God?” “I think so,” John said. “I spoke to an unbelievably powerful sentience. Whether it was God or some kind of angel or other spirit, I really don’t know to this day. But something came and answered my questions, and stayed with me for a long time.” “How long were you up in the mountains?” I asked. “Two years,” he said. “I came back down because my son developed rheumatoid arthritis. Western medicine could do nothing for him; my friends took him to a native healer, who simply said, ‘Only the father can cure this boy.’ So I came back.” “Did you cure him?” “Yes, with acupuncture, within two months.” “And you just knew he was ill; no one sent you a message?” “I have already told you that, when I was up in the mountains, I could see people and places far away during the time I spent in meditation. I watched my family a lot; it helped me feel less lonely.” A servant came out with tea, which we gratefully accepted. No one was willing to start up the conversation again. What we had just heard had shocked all of us more than anything John had ever said or done. Here was a man who stated very simply and directly that he had spoken to God; it was the pinnacle of human experience, and there was not much anyone could add to it. There were a thousand things that I wanted to ask him. We have lost the luxury in this day and age of being able to speak in such personal terms when describing the eternal, society and science being what they are. People don’t just sit down and ask God questions! The Lord God Himself? Why the hell not? I believed my teacher. At least I believed that he was neither a liar nor delusional. He had seen . . . something. I dared the question. “Sifu, when you spoke to God, did you ask Him what happens to our souls after we die?” He looked puzzled. “I have already described the black wave and the white wave to you,” he said. “Yes, and you said that neither condition was permanent, that after a time all spirits went up to God.” “Yes.” “So what happens next? Do we reincarnate? Do we live only one life? Do we cease to exist? What’s the story?” “I have already told you that I don’t know.” “But. . . .” “He never answered that question.” John pulled out a cigarette, lit it up, and leaned back. “I can tell you what I myself, as an individual, believe. This is not something that I teach; I have students who are Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, skeptics like yourself, and more. Neikung has no basis in religious theory. If you want my own opinions, you are welcome to them, but remember, they are nothing more than my own opinions.” “Okay.” “I believe that it is logical for reincarnation to exist, since God is very just and very fair. Why should someone suffer for something that they haven’t done? Why should one man be born a cripple and another with everything? It doesn’t seem fair or even logical. So either the universe is unjust or, if you believe in a just God, then He has planned for justice in our lives. So I believe in reincarnation.” I did not want to debate him; different religions in the history of humanity have even postulated the existence of an unjust God to explain life’s disparate distribution of blessings. “You have mentioned karma to me in the past,” I continued. “The consequence of our actions?” “Action and reaction. People paying for bad actions and being rewarded for good ones. Makes sense, doesn’t it?” “Do you believe that someone carries their karma with them from one life to the other?” Andreas asked. “Yes. I personally as an individual, yes,” John answered. I had studied Buddhism for many years; one of the issues not addressed sufficiently by that religion (in my opinion) is the very obvious evolution of the species going on continuously around us, as if by divine plan. And man’s presence and development on the planet cannot be accounted for with satisfaction, even by modern science, giving rise to theories of little green men performing experiments on primates and what not. “Sifu, is evolution directed?” I charged to drive the point home. “Sorry?” “Does God have a plan for man and the earth? Is there a guiding intelligence behind everything?” “In my opinion, yes.” And there it was: the core of religion’s debate with science.

 

“And is this God a judge?” I continued. “Does He decide everyone’s karma?” “No. We decide our own karma. God Himself interferes very little in our lives and in the judgment of our consciousness after our deaths.” “But what about the white waves and the black wave you described?” “What about them?” “Doesn’t God decide whose spirit goes into which area and how long he remains there?” “Not really; karma decides that. God basically intercedes very little in the course of affairs. We call the will of heaven jodo in Chinese. For example, that you Kosta, and you Andreas, are here is jodo. Do you know how many people have come searching for me and could not find me? It is the will of heaven that you are here.” We looked at each other. We had certainly both found our teacher under unusual circumstances—impossible circumstances, statistically speaking. “Sifu,” I insisted, “Why isn’t finding you merely just good karma? What is the difference between jodo and karma?” “Jodo comes from God,” he said. “Karma comes from us.” “So God has a plan, but it is up to us to live up to it,” Andreas said. “Yes,” John answered. “And you will reap the consequence of all your actions, whether good or bad. Karma is purely natural law, like biology and physics; jodo is the will of heaven. I cannot make things any clearer than that. For most people, jodo simply decides the time and place of their birth and the time and place of their death. But bad karma can also make your life shorter; if you are destined to live a hundred years, you may wind up living fifty instead.

 

Kosta Danaos, The Magus of Java

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When I spoke with master Wang LiPing I was told if I wanted to end rebirth I could either cut the root of my spirit/soul ( I assume this is like a soul suicide ) or fuse my yin and yang spirits into something new.

 

But I get your point here.

 

Even though these men are giants compared almost everyone, they aren't omniscient Gods.

 

Forever is a really long time, I don't know if even a level 72 mo pai master would continue on for eternity. If the sun engulfed the earth in flame and vaporized it, would they survive that?

 

Does a spiritual immortal really live forever forever? I don't know.

 

I don't really care if I live as a spirit forever, I don't care if I live forever in any sense period. I just want to be liberated from rebirth.

 

These schools seem to be the only ones I am aware of focusing on ending rebirth as their primary goal. I don't really know of any better options at this point. I'll just do the best I can with what I have and if I fail I fail.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is the concept and words of this result, which these people believe in (a mix of Buddhist and Taoist mythology which might be true)...there are the assumptions about the words, which you believe in (which doesn't necessarily resemble the actual attainment)...then there is the reality of that result, which those guys may have attained or not. Your attainment may not meet your expectations of what it is...the words are misleading and the interpretation of the words even more so.

 

I'm not here to criticize your path and who you are at all...I just feel like it's a bit too much intensity building up, with no release of that through action towards the goals you have. And too much hatred of life and wishing for nothingness, when really what you're trying to do on this path is extend the time that you're alive in some form or another...most likely even after the typical death of the physical body.

 

Regardless, I wish you the best in meeting your goals as well as finding your satisfaction.

 

PS I like your descriptions of the yin and yang spirits.

Edited March 19, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy