Genuine Schools

[Thunder_Gooch]

Just an update:

 

John Chang is quoted here:

 

“I have gone to China twice looking for people like myself, hoping to find a brother. I was unsuccessful both times.” “But you know of their existence now?” I asked. “Yes,” he said. “I know that there are for sure two and I can sense eight more. I think that there are at least ten.”

 

 

 

 

Kosta Danaos - The Magus of Java

i wanna know something..

 

how did you come up with the magic figure of 60 people alive on earth who truly represent legitimate schools?

 

do you think for eg.. dr pillai of the pillai centre.. http://www.pillaicenter.com/

 

or max of kunlun.. www.primordialalchemist.com/

 

do they represent legitimate schools?

 

don't you think 60 is an extremely low number considering we have hundreds of diverse cultures and billions of people on this planet?

 

what factors do you consider in determining if someone represent a legitimate school or not?

Edited March 18, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

I've invested much thought and planning into what I think is the best way proceed with my goals.

 

Trying to work full time, pay rent, and stay stuck in the high stress rat race while simultaneously trying to meditate many hours a day isn't going to work for me. It's way too unbalancing to be cultivating and be stressed out as chi reacts to your emotions. I know this from first hand experience, I was trying to train while working and it just didn't work out at all.

 

I need a low stress environment, I need a part time job that can cover minimal living expenses, and I need to own land and a camper and a few minor things related to a basic standard of living, before I can continue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to be frank with you pie guy

 

i think you are making excuses to hold off your training..

 

i was once like you.. thinking i have to make some money first or get married to a supporting partner and buy a house, a car, etc etc .. you know get all the financial and moral support for my training first before actually going through my training..

 

well guess what life doesn't work that way.. the universe doesn't work that way..

 

for any practitioner to achieve attainments.. he has to be ready to go through any and all hardships.. he has to be ready to sacrifice anything and everything to reach enlightenment.. if that means living on the streets as a beggar begging for scraps in the daytime and meditating in the night-time, then so be it...

 

with that said.. our world has evolved to such a stage that one doesn't need to be a street beggar in order to cultivate... there are thousands of monasteries all over the world which doesn't require anything for you to join and be a monk..

 

sure these monasteries may require you to put in a few hours of work to do maintenance work for the monastery but on the whole.. these monasteries will give you a whole lot more time for you to meditate and cultivate than if you hold two jobs in the material world..

 

because with the way things are going right now.. i think the world may end before you ever get anywhere near saving enough for the acre of land and that camper..

 

my advice to you would be join a local monastery.. or a foreign one.. you can study the language of your choice of foreign monastery while living there as a monk while at the same time getting free food and board with meditation time..

 

worst come to worst.. go teach english part-time in an asian country while living and meditating in a monastery..

 

the world does not have much time left and i can assure you this world will end around dec 21 by the end of this year so if i were you, i would push forward with my cultivation in double quick time..

 

PS you mentioned special legitimate schools.. well trust me.. if you dedicate yourself to the basic meditation knowledge found in the public domain while living as a monk.. you will find yourself as a disciple in that legitimate school much faster than if you were to hold two jobs saving up for that acre of land and camper..

 

in fact, i dare bet everything i have that you will never find yourself to be part of a legitimate school if you continue to waste time and energy working 2 jobs.. the universe will never open that door for you if you aren't ready to give up everything..

 

this is the harsh lesson which i am being punished for right now.. i had to learn to be ready to give up everything on my path/fight to reach enlightenment before that special door actually opens..

Edited March 18, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

[Simple_Jack]

But really answer my questions if you can. Where exactly did you learn Mahamudra teachings?

 

And also if you are striving for purification, you have not realized the effortless direct perception that liberates upon arising. You have to thoroughly see the absence of personality and of any duality between samsaric dirt or nirvanic purity.

 

Sorry, I forgot to add this distinction earlier: I've mainly used the approach of Sutra Mahamudra; specifically from Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's Mahamudra: The Moonlight -- Quintessence of Mind and Meditation. From what I understand (from reading on Dharmawheel) this doesn't require empowerment since it is considered independent. A link describing the different classifications of Mahamudra(of Sutra Mahamudra, Mantra Mahamudra, and Essence Mahamudra My link) It is basically the systemization of the sutric path.

 

As for the other part of your post... Like I said back in the "Arhats?" thread My link: "Bodhicitta, is to work towards buddhahood for the sake of all sentient beings." This is how bodhicitta is defined in Mahayana. The whole point of the Mahayana teachings are to remove any remaining cognitive obscurations (for those who continue from Hinayana onwards to Mahayana) towards omniscience/Buddhahood. This the goal of Mahayana which all of it's teachings are aimed toward. This is the goal of all the different sects of Mahayana, including Vajrayana (Zen and Vajrayana are the only one's to purport that buddhahood can be achieved in a single lifetime.)

 

The 'result' of Mahamudra (and Dzogchen) is the attainment of buddhahood. They (both Dzogchen and Mahamudra) are aimed towards the goal of buddhahood. To stress again: This is the whole point of Mahayana.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Simple_Jack

[suninmyeyes]

You are doing good being yourself More Pie Guy ,this is your way and you gotta do what you gotta do.

I dont think there is any failiures involved, just maybe some diversions.

Anyaway camper van in nature sounds great.

[Ya Mu]

MPG,

 

FWIW, I applaud your effort to get your own place. I think it is good that you are assuming responsibility for yourself. In a way, that is it's own cultivation. On that acre you can grown your own food and cut down on expenses.

 

And everyone has to come into their own time with cultivation. After all, this ain't rock n roll, but is serious business. (pun on songs)

 

But I will say that the stress is exactly the reason to consider practicing when you can as you can. It can make a huge difference in how you feel.

 

And, there are genuine teachings hidden in plain sight.

 

Follow your true-heart and don't listen to anyone else is my suggestion.

[mantis]

Those Magus of Java excerpts are really interesting, I might buy the book now

[Lucky7Strikes]

Sorry, I forgot to add this distinction earlier: I've mainly used the approach of Sutra Mahamudra; specifically from Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's Mahamudra: The Moonlight -- Quintessence of Mind and Meditation. From what I understand (from reading on Dharmawheel) this doesn't require empowerment since it is considered independent. A link describing the different classifications of Mahamudra(of Sutra Mahamudra, Mantra Mahamudra, and Essence Mahamudra My link) It is basically the systemization of the sutric path.

 

As for the other part of your post... Like I said back in the "Arhats?" thread My link: "Bodhicitta, is to work towards buddhahood for the sake of all sentient beings." This is how bodhicitta is defined in Mahayana. The whole point of the Mahayana teachings are to remove any remaining cognitive obscurations (for those who continue from Hinayana onwards to Mahayana) towards omniscience/Buddhahood. This the goal of Mahayana which all of it's teachings are aimed toward. This is the goal of all the different sects of Mahayana, including Vajrayana (Zen and Vajrayana are the only one's to purport that buddhahood can be achieved in a single lifetime.)

 

The 'result' of Mahamudra (and Dzogchen) is the attainment of buddhahood. They (both Dzogchen and Mahamudra) are aimed towards the goal of buddhahood. To stress again: This is the whole point of Mahayana.

So you read books and practice according to your interpretations. Then what stage are you at in following the Mahamudra: The Moonlight text? Have you gone through the preparatory exercises? Have you mastered the stages of tranquility? Because I think what you do is a lot of hand picking. I highly doubt you actually studied through the text step by step.

 

Furthermore, if you do not fully practice the Shurangama sutra, why did you post a quote from it to subtly criticize the concept of immortality as enlightenment in Daoist traditions, thereby glorifying Buddhism? You have no idea whether this is true or not, nor is it part of your practice. The only reason for the quotation was that it is Buddhist. And since it is Buddhist is must be right.

 

As for the second part, is this your goal or is it the goal of mahayana? If it is your goal, as I have said beforehand, then you have yet discarded your personality/self or the duality of samsara or nirvana. Your vision of the world is divided into the current state of impurity and the future state of attainment, which is inconsistent with sutrayana teachings that there is no nirvana, no attainment, no liberation, and no sentient beings to liberate.

 

If it is merely the goal of mahayana, then you are merely dogmatic and a true believer (or you are dishonest, replacing your personality with a doctrine, but still believing that to be your own). You are tied to language and shadows, which at best makes you an imitator. Also, in such a case, you can only prove your path righteous in its own context, more specifically, you justify Buddhism with a Buddhist context. It is like a Christian using the Bible to justify his belief in Christianity.

 

If you think it's both, then you are probably just confused.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Harmonious Emptiness, that can be really frustrating, but it can lead to awesome practice. Something that changed my life is taking the noise of a crowded city or a screaming child or a barking dog or anything that interrupts my meditation and, with the power of the mind and spirit, transmuting it with your intentions to a vibration of spiritual purity.

 

Ideally, you can also wake up at 4 or 5 AM and sit for an hour and then go back to sleep (hehe i did that just this morning.. mmmm sundays). The atmospheric qi is best during that time anyway

 

But maybe someone else can say what that transmutation practice is called, because i don't know a name for it in chinese or sanskrit or anything that you could look up. I just know that when my neighbor decides to play her TV way too loud (i think she's losing her hearing), through the power of mind, i make no distinction between the nonsense of jersey shore and the singing of temple songs and bells. With practice, you can do this anywhere, and anytime.

 

Blessings

 

I know exactly what you mean. Especially when the noise is one tone, the tone can start to sound like a singing bowl or an OM and seems to be transformed rather than transforming. There must be something to expanding presence and meditation in this way, as I get the feeling I'm not the only one who realizes the change in vibration. There's probably a fairly simple explanation to it. I think I have picked up another persons vibration like this in the past when traffic started to sound like ethereal symphony..

[konchog uma]

I know exactly what you mean. Especially when the noise is one tone, the tone can start to sound like a singing bowl or an OM and seems to be transformed rather than transforming. There must be something to expanding presence and meditation in this way, as I get the feeling I'm not the only one who realizes the change in vibration. There's probably a fairly simple explanation to it. I think I have picked up another persons vibration like this in the past when traffic started to sound like ethereal symphony..

 

Awesome!

[Thunder_Gooch]

I do meditate to de stress before I sleep, as a matter of fact I am completely dependant on this meditation to sleep at all. I can't sleep now, and just lay awake all night every night in bed unless I can get into a deep comatose state via breath reduction.

 

I am open to any meditations besides metta which I do daily, I also spend a lot of time in prayer begging to not be reborn, and for help and guidance.

 

Anything to get rid of the stress.

 

I don't smoke pot or drink or anything to deal with stress.

 

 

 

MPG,

 

FWIW, I applaud your effort to get your own place. I think it is good that you are assuming responsibility for yourself. In a way, that is it's own cultivation. On that acre you can grown your own food and cut down on expenses.

 

And everyone has to come into their own time with cultivation. After all, this ain't rock n roll, but is serious business. (pun on songs)

 

But I will say that the stress is exactly the reason to consider practicing when you can as you can. It can make a huge difference in how you feel.

 

And, there are genuine teachings hidden in plain sight.

 

Follow your true-heart and don't listen to anyone else is my suggestion.

[Simple_Jack]

So you read books and practice according to your interpretations. Then what stage are you at in following the Mahamudra: The Moonlight text? Have you gone through the preparatory exercises? Have you mastered the stages of tranquility? Because I think what you do is a lot of hand picking. I highly doubt you actually studied through the text step by step.

 

Furthermore, if you do not fully practice the Shurangama sutra, why did you post a quote from it to subtly criticize the concept of immortality as enlightenment in Daoist traditions, thereby glorifying Buddhism? You have no idea whether this is true or not, nor is it part of your practice. The only reason for the quotation was that it is Buddhist. And since it is Buddhist is must be right.

 

As for the second part, is this your goal or is it the goal of mahayana? If it is your goal, as I have said beforehand, then you have yet discarded your personality/self or the duality of samsara or nirvana. Your vision of the world is divided into the current state of impurity and the future state of attainment, which is inconsistent with sutrayana teachings that there is no nirvana, no attainment, no liberation, and no sentient beings to liberate.

 

If it is merely the goal of mahayana, then you are merely dogmatic and a true believer (or you are dishonest, replacing your personality with a doctrine, but still believing that to be your own). You are tied to language and shadows, which at best makes you an imitator. Also, in such a case, you can only prove your path righteous in its own context, more specifically, you justify Buddhism with a Buddhist context. It is like a Christian using the Bible to justify his belief in Christianity.

 

If you think it's both, then you are probably just confused.

I have no problem accepting this. I don't have some "reputation" to defend on the bums.

 

If it is merely the goal of mahayana, then you are merely dogmatic and a true believer (or you are dishonest, replacing your personality with a doctrine, but still believing that to be your own). You are tied to language and shadows, which at best makes you an imitator

 

This is a good reminder to me of my own shortcomings on and off the cushion.

 

I wish you unobstructed accomplishment in all your endeavors both spiritual and otherwise.

 

 

P.S. I was serious about that deal, man If we're both living and it is true what the sutras promise on this buddhahood thing (and if I actually manage to accomplish it, lol) I'll show up and manifest spiritual powers and shit deal?

[3bob]

I do meditate to de stress before I sleep, as a matter of fact I am completely dependant on this meditation to sleep at all. I can't sleep now, and just lay awake all night every night in bed unless I can get into a deep comatose state via breath reduction.

 

I am open to any meditations besides metta which I do daily, I also spend a lot of time in prayer begging to not be reborn, and for help and guidance.

 

Anything to get rid of the stress.

 

I don't smoke pot or drink or anything to deal with stress.

 

MPG,

"begging to not be reborn"... Well for me that would not exacly be hitting the mark in any school, including various forms of Buddhism. Why - because Buddhism says one is to follow the 'Noble Eight Fold Path' which means to me that one is not to add suffering via an imagined future without rebirth. The same and sometimes hellish problem applies if one over-extends themselves on attachments related to imaginings about 'enlightenment'. There is enough to take care of day by day, thus the rest will also be taken care by unbreakable laws.

Edited March 19, 2012 by 3bob

[doc benway]

No offense to tulku, steve, you or anyone else.

 

It's my life, and I do things my way. I'm slow as a turtle, but as powerful as a tidal wave.

 

We each have our own way of doing things, and if we fail at achieving our dreams we have no one to blame but ourselves.

 

I know what makes the most sense for me, and my life. Don't worry if I fail miserably I won't blame anyone but myself.

None taken my friend.

I genuinely wish you success and good fortune on your path, whatever form that may take, and simply wanted to share alternative perspectives based on your posts. You are 100% correct - no one can walk your path but you. At the same time, don't forget to keep an open mind and be willing to challenge your beliefs and paradigms. Particularly if where you are at does not seem to be where you want to be. That very kernel of conflict is at the core of suffering.

[Owledge]

[Thunder_Gooch]

That proverb cannot be falsified. It's more like a way of looking at things in order to create consolation and patience, but that can also increase imbalance and thus pain if it eventually isn't supported by reality.

 

You will find the teachings appropriate for your karma would be a better way of saying it.

[Sonhoffman]

Death died like a deep dream one finally awakens from,

replaced by freedom to "Fear not" and doubt not.

 

Further, there is no dissoulution of the real, for niether "death"

nor "life" can reach it, thus the real worries not of forms

coming and going for worry is not of its nature.

 

I was deeply moved by this. I just recently experienced a state where I could not remember if I had just died or not. I mean I was really not sure. And I couldn't, in that moment, remember.. just about anything. I had no problems either

[3bob]

I was deeply moved by this. I just recently experienced a state where I could not remember if I had just died or not. I mean I was really not sure. And I couldn't, in that moment, remember.. just about anything. I had no problems either

 

Sonhoffman

 

I'm glad that little saying was of use to you! Remebering or memory are like traces in time for the aspects of ourselves that use and or communicate with same, but such traces can't circumscribe the "mysteries" which they can only allude to...

[Jetsun]

This saying that you will find your teacher when you are ready is spoken a lot but what if it is false and you have to go out and put in the effort to find your teacher and genuine teachings? you have to get out of the house and go and search and not expect them to appear when you are ready. Perhaps a good teacher will bring you up to the level where you are able to be taught no matter the level you are at and maybe a good teacher can make you into a good student. In the story of Milarepa he had the karma of being a mass murderer yet he managed to find one of the great enlightened teachers Marpa as his teacher by going and searching for them with his own efforts so it may not just be about karma, i'm sure all the masters through history had students of different merit.

 

I have been reading some Master Nan Huai-Chin as recommended earlier in this thread and he confirms that the majority of what people are teaching as spiritual paths now are actually just distortions or fabrications of genuine teachings, most of the qigong, kundalini and energy methods being taught now will not lead out of the desire realm of human consciousness and many will just entrench you further. With the explosion of popularity of spiritual cultivation also comes an explosion of distortion and wrong interpretation of the teachings, so finding the real deal is not as simple as many people seem to assume.

[idquest]

I agree that effort of finding a teacher can be a necessary component of one's spiritual development. I also remember B. Frantzis's replying on a question (here on TTB) about different schools. The reply was in a sense that it eventually boils down to how full/complete a school is. Say completeness is 95% which means it would require dosens or years of full time cultivation - I'd say such a school would be a good one. And compare to another school that offers 3 levels out of 7 levels, and those 3 levels are already watered down or simplified to accomodate new age folks demand.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

What are people's take on studying with understudies of a lineage holder? For example, I'm strongly considering joining a Chen Tai Chi school, but the beginner classes might be taught by an understudy. Is it worth the same rate, or should I start at a school where the master instructor teaches the classes though may not have the same direct lineage proximity?

[Friend]

This saying that you will find your teacher when you are ready is spoken a lot but what if it is false and you have to go out and put in the effort to find your teacher and genuine teachings? you have to get out of the house and go and search and not expect them to appear when you are ready. Perhaps a good teacher will bring you up to the level where you are able to be taught no matter the level you are at and maybe a good teacher can make you into a good student. In the story of Milarepa he had the karma of being a mass murderer yet he managed to find one of the great enlightened teachers Marpa as his teacher by going and searching for them with his own efforts so it may not just be about karma, i'm sure all the masters through history had students of different merit.

 

 

Finding a good teacher is something difficult as from expirience and from expirience by others who run 30 years around (I befriend often much older in the past, since they are better to talk, have developed the concious, finding young people.... you want me to play the lottery and win- waste of money- gamblers like to say they feel the luck?

 

People like Milarepa.

This perhaps are story of people who had make it into history. History do not talk about losers and victims in a documentary they are not the main protagonist when they are not relevant in the developement and story of the "winner"

 

And each of us is not directly Milarepa, some really search like one of my Uncles

to believe in immortals or wonders for 40 years and he was riding China up and down as well Vietnam and for some kind of reason he not find the wonder he was seeking for

only recentyl on behalf of told by my father that I may do the same mistake he told me to stop everything (well I cultivate at that time half of interest and half because my Chronic Fatique interferes with my life) so my father told about Sifu Joong

(forget in which US State he immigrated) a friend and both were than telephone with him.

And I would if I accept become the only student of him in Bagua Tai Chi Chuan - and he refuse to accept others.

(Rare lineage, can be read at martial arts exeperts.com or so.

 

Well Uncle Phan has then vist Sifu Joong (no school, work on the roads), and he is prone in is Fighting Skills in Hung Gar KungFu who can lift with one arm 4 tires of a truck and still likes to fight in his age. But well seeing Sifu Joong perform

Tai Chi and use "Sheng Qi" moving things around call wind, Uncle Phan compares him with Jet Li in Tai Chi as being more impressive. And he not dare to spare with him.

Well meeting the wonder he seeks after 40 years with out seeking is different than his 40 years active search and this man only fear to look old!

 

It is that you may just run around and let go that the teacher may scout you, because he saw you in a dream or had been told by the spirt world to look for signs.

Else like Sifu Joong remaing quite not even sorrow that the Art level of the teachings is lost to a new generation for already rare lineage, just doing his job as a steet worker doing the roads instead of opening and make him known trough the states by participating in contest - no- just humble work and humble genuine exercise.

And giving me an offer and here I do not "put in the effort to find your teacher and genuine teachings", I did was I did and still I have not put my ass over the seas and spare my money for stay there for a while.

[Owledge]

You will find the teachings appropriate for your karma would be a better way of saying it.

I agree. Still unfalsifiable though.

[Clarity]

The Sufi way is to be in the world but not of the world. Real inner work can be done anywhere at anytime. Every drop counts and it adds up.

 

What good is it if you can meditate on your ass for 4 hours in silence but break out into road rage the minute you get into a car?

 

For me the real question is can you have some semblance of neutrality in the midst of chaos or unpleasant circumstances?

 

For example, have you ever tried to put your mind and breath in your LDT and keep it there for a few minutes while you wait in line at the grocery store?

 

Now back to the original subject of this post. What makes people assume they would even know a real school if they saw one? Or a real teacher for that matter?

 

The most important thing is to separate the apparent from the real. This is something human beings have struggled with for thousands of years. Without this discernment, there's no point in even talking about real schools.

 

In terms of inner work, the idea is we use the present to repair the past and prepare for the future.

 

The idea that we have to meditate for hours on end to achieve some kind of future reward does not resonate with me.

 

Now, having said that, I spend a lot of time practicing having no-mind. If my mind is full of thoughts, words, or memories, how can I ever hope to perceive reality?

 

My former teacher (now departed) used to say that Life is the greatest teacher. We have something to learn from every situation if we are open to it. It's very hard to be open if we are stuck in our heads, unduly influenced by dogma, or having some kind of mental reaction.

 

Now, having said all this (more words than I care to use), I can say with certainty that when a student is ready, the teacher will appear. This happens out of necessity; it's a question of time, place, and person. It's also best to not make any assumptions about the form the teacher or the teaching will take because that's just another way to limit our experience.

 

Rumi had a great saying, "If you really want something, increase your need." In other words, if your need is great (not borne out of ego), Life will answer. The Sufi's also had a great saying, "Take one step toward Allah and he will take a thousand steps towards you."

 

Thank you, I'm happy to leave my ego at the door.

[Owledge]

Rumi had a great saying, "If you really want something, increase your need." In other words, if your need is great (not borne out of ego), Life will answer. The Sufi's also had a great saying, "Take one step toward Allah and he will take a thousand steps towards you."

How can any so-called "need" not be borne out of ego?

 

All those sayings have no use for my personal life. They only confuse more. Desires are borne out of ego, and without any desire, there's nothing that needs to happen, and there's no incentive to do anything. Total indifference. As soon as any kind of impulse for doing something arises, is arises out of a desire, a perceived necessity.

No guru who eats in order to maintain his body is completely void of desires.