Beginners mind

[64changes]

Hi all,

 

I wanted to share a little story, and maybe someone can tell me if this "state" I describe has a name.

Confounded me for long time this.

 

Waaay back in the late eigthies & early nineties I worked in Psychiatry, believing I was doing "good" work.

This I continued for a few years and eventually studied to be qualified in Psyche nursing.

 

During my studies I did a lot of drugs & booze & sex like most students.

I also thought a lot about psychiatry and the human experience.

 

1 evening, a few days after doing a lot of mushrooms, I was meditating on what thoughts psychiatry couldn't classify, as everyone around me seemed to be "Ill" in some way or another.

It occurred to me that the only way to get around psychiatry and not be classified as "Ill" would be to have no thought.

 

So I did.

No thought.

At all.

For 3 or 4 months!

 

I continued going through most of the motions of living, eating, washing, dressing, etc.

But had no thoughts around it.

However in dealing with other humans I could feel there unconscious, pre-natal selves. that They were barely aware of. And in talking with others ( all mammals included) I found I could communicate directly with there unconscious.

 

Suffice to say, it was a scary and magical time for me.

And something i have tried to recreate or rediscover though meditation, qigong, bagua, etc for 20 years.

I'm getting there, too, slowly.

 

BTW. I was thrown out of psyche practice during this time, for being a nutter.

Edited March 16, 2012 by 64changes

[idiot_stimpy]

Hi all,

 

I wanted to share a little story, and maybe someone can tell me if this "state" I describe has a name.

Confounded me for long time this.

 

Waaay back in the late eigthies & early nineties I worked in Psychiatry, believing I was doing "good" work.

This I continued for a few years and eventually studied to be qualified in Psyche nursing.

 

During my studies I did a lot of drugs & booze & sex like most students.

I also thought a lot about psychiatry and the human experience.

 

1 evening, a few days after doing a lot of mushrooms, I was meditating on what thoughts psychiatry couldn't classify, as everyone around me seemed to be "Ill" in some way or another.

It occurred to me that the only way to get around psychiatry and not be classified as "Ill" would be to have no thought.

 

So I did.

No thought.

At all.

For 3 or 4 months!

 

I continued going through most of the motions of living, eating, washing, dressing, etc.

But had no thoughts around it.

However in dealing with other humans I could feel there unconscious, pre-natal selves. that They were barely aware of. And in talking with others ( all mammals included) I found I could communicate directly with there unconscious.

 

Suffice to say, it was a scary and magical time for me.

And something i have tried to recreate or rediscover though meditation, qigong, bagau, etc for 20 years.

I'm getting there, too, slowly.

 

BTW. I was thrown out of psche practice during this time, for being a nutter.

 

 

Awesome story.

 

For me it was experimenting with going for longer periods of time without thinking before going to sleep at night.

 

I love the fact that you can't worry unless you think about worrying. If you remove the thinking there can be no worrying because worrying is manifested through thinking.

[konchog uma]

yeah wonderful story! what a gift!

 

as you are probably aware, terrence and dennis mckenna had a similar experience, or i should say, terrence did, in that after a megadose of mushrooms, he was unable to speak for a month, while being able to telepathically communicate with his brother. So that is a story of a longer-term psilocybin<sp> effect in a similar vein to your story.

[64changes]

The toughest bit to recreate is having no contents of thought.

Not just a lack of thinking, but having no mental "furniture" to sit thoughts on.

Best way i can describe it.

 

Its a very strange 2&8 to live with, and not something I found pleasant at the time.

Its only after years of Qigong I realise its value

[InfinityTruth]

Incredible post, I'm glad I read this.

 

I started trying to keep my mind empty last night and I love it. I noticed when I do it while meditating the time goes by very quickly. I also noticed this morning while trying to keep my mind empty, that I can more easily see what is arising with no thoughts to distract me. It's even fun to practice.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

To the OP, I'm guessing you are quite new to Taoism, as clearing the mind of thoughts is often considered a pre-cursor or necessity to meditative concentration. I don't know a literal Chinese name for ``no thought`` though there are various methaphorical signifiers according to some explanations of Alchemical texts. It is not quite an end in itself, but a way to focus more on internal changes, similar to closing the eyes and finding external quiet, clearing the mind also allows for less distraction from what is hapenning at more subtle levels.

 

Of course, psychiatrists might not make much sense of this since their ``art`` is all about thinking and would make no sense without thinking, nor could it discover much about the virtues of not thinking since it only cares about things which can be explained with logical thinking. Quite a pickle that puts them in, imo. It's like a bad comedy with really lame jokes, only it's real, and it has the power to prescribe insanity (ie, continuing this line of thinking) and decide who the deciders are..

 

No wonder some of the wisest people just keep their wisdom to themselves.

 

``Insanity is but the minority of one`` - Orwell, ``1984``

 

 

Really, most people in med school could complete their phd 3 times over before they accomplished some of the things yogis and Aboriginal healers do, yet would never question the authority of their own authority.. Unfortunately, even when these people do have proufound spiritual insights, they are not allowed to explore them within their disciplines. Yet, Karl Jung learned so much from tribes and so forth and even admitted that there are energetic forces beyond the body which influence a person.

 

There may be some more open minded schools, but the attitude of pychiatry to drugs has been entirely archaic up until more recently, and even recent changes are controversial exceptions. So I guess it's no wonder they kicked you out, but I wonder if you might get back in with the right environment if you tried ``today.``

[Owledge]

BTW. I was thrown out of psyche practice during this time, for being a nutter.

Classical. Doctors et. al. are so caught up in the me-healthy-them-ill mindset that when someone comes along who radiates less illness than they themselves (and some more or less subconscious part of them will acknowledge it), it destroys their whole world view that they need in order to not feel inferior or hypocritical.

Like the saying: The better is the enemy of the good.

When people see their own state of mind as the highest possible (=closedmindedness), then higher states are not understood and thus are assumed to be lower. But I think it's based on not-wanting to understand, not on a total inability that permeates all levels of consciousness.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Owledge

[64changes]

I guess this illustrates the difference between western medicine, which is relatively young.

And more traditional medicine, which, although much older, requires more from the patient, less from the guide, witch doctor, shaman, whatever.

A story more about power than I thought, thanks for the view points.

 

If you want to hold onto something ( your humanity even).

Let it go.

[Lucky7Strikes]

A good way to stop thinking is realizing that thoughts are an activity you are consciously doing, like waving your arms, but it happens in the head region. Then you realize how much energy you are using keeping up the habit of thinking. Then you can think and not think whenever you want to. The energy will be directed in other ways.

 

I don't know about communicating with other mammals though. Sounds cool.

[64changes]

A good way to stop thinking is realizing that thoughts are an activity you are consciously doing, like waving your arms, but it happens in the head region. Then you realize how much energy you are using keeping up the habit of thinking. Then you can think and not think whenever you want to. The energy will be directed in other ways.

 

I don't know about communicating with other mammals though. Sounds cool.

 

 

Thanks for that, good way of looking at it.

 

Other mammals seem to have fairly similar structure (internally) and as such most of the same internal potential.

Thats why, I suspect, we humans can develop such close relationships with them.

I'm just guessing though.

[Jetsun]

I would be careful with this no thought stuff, I have been reading some books by Nan Huai Chin and he says that various Buddhist masters through history have had correct many mistaken beliefs and practises around no thought, how many people have tried to cultivate it through a means of suppression creating a contrived blank state of mind which is not real dharma practice. In the highest form of Dzogchen thought or no thought makes no difference as they are both equally empty.

[64changes]

Thats true.

Scared the shit out of me the first few times.

Put me off meditation for a while.

 

And I have wandered into the blank suppression state too, when things were unbearable.

Not good.

 

The key, with all these things, is to keep communicating, despite whats going on.

Preferable with someone more experienced than you.

 

And I've heard various tales over the years of Daoist or Buddhist teachers being able to consume vast quantities of mind altering substances and it made no perceivable difference to them.

Once you have the way, these things all become nothing.

[joeblast]

I would be careful with this no thought stuff, I have been reading some books by Nan Huai Chin and he says that various Buddhist masters through history have had correct many mistaken beliefs and practises around no thought, how many people have tried to cultivate it through a means of suppression creating a contrived blank state of mind which is not real dharma practice. In the highest form of Dzogchen thought or no thought makes no difference as they are both equally empty.

Master Nan makes a very good point in some of his works, namely differentiating between the concept of "no-mind" vs "oblivion" - one can have the state of no-mind yet still be completely aware. One can also have the state of no-mind and be in complete oblivion with no awareness of what's going on at all - he referred to that as "dead tree zen."

 

By training the awareness to focus on something, as opposed to attempting to simply "get rid of thoughts" there is a very important distinction - the focusing of awareness keep the awareness sharp, channeling something that is always moving. Contrast that to trying to suppress something that is always flowing, you dam it up until the pent up force overcomes that which is holding it back.

 

Re-focusing awareness on the breath and harmonizing the processes, when cultivated over a long time, gets at the very root of the issue - another concept from master Nan, "thought-stream-energy." Doing enough focused awareness establishes a new path of least resistance for the thoughtstreamenergy; whereas the old POLR was manifestation of thought, the new one simply flows back to the dantien and the circle continues, the river placidly flowing, not ceasing.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I would be careful with this no thought stuff, I have been reading some books by Nan Huai Chin and he says that various Buddhist masters through history have had correct many mistaken beliefs and practises around no thought, how many people have tried to cultivate it through a means of suppression creating a contrived blank state of mind which is not real dharma practice. In the highest form of Dzogchen thought or no thought makes no difference as they are both equally empty.

I agree, this shouldn't be seen as some attainment. It's just a measure to free yourself from years of being stuck up in head activity. When I started meditation I could not sit still for more than five minutes, because I thought my head was going to explode from all the neurosis.

[寒月 Hanyue]

By training the awareness to focus on something, as opposed to attempting to simply "get rid of thoughts" there is a very important distinction - the focusing of awareness keep the awareness sharp, channeling something that is always moving. Contrast that to trying to suppress something that is always flowing, you dam it up until the pent up force overcomes that which is holding it back.

 

Re-focusing awareness on the breath and harmonizing the processes, when cultivated over a long time, gets at the very root of the issue

 

Intersting and informative posts, thank you Jetsun, Joeblast, and L7S.

 

I have found the work of John Selby to be quite informative in this regard. Especially his comments on the usual one pointed focus practice found in 'Zen'. His research, he's a psychologist and done neurological tests regarding meditation, they hooked up yogis to EEG machines and watched the brain wave activities as they performed meditationas and various tasks. They found that a multiple point awareness shifted the brain into alpha and calmed the mind. I cannot help but feel the 'mindfulness of breath' practices have somewhat been diverted from their original nature.

 

He now teaches a method that allows the mind to quieten using multiple points of perceptual awareness rather than one. His proposed method is remarkably similar in many ways to the old Ch'an method Liu Hung Chieh taught Bruce Frantzis. It is simple.

 

I feel the air flowing in and out of my nose.

 

I also feel the movements in my chest and belly as I breathe.

 

I'm aware of my whole body here in this present moment.

 

I honour and love myself, just as I am right now.

 

This split awareness or primary and secondary is an interesting thing. His chapter in 'Kundalini rising' is well worth reading especially if you have read his mush earlier work on Kundalini.

 

Best,

Edited March 24, 2012 by snowmonki

[oildrops]

as you are probably aware, terrence and dennis mckenna had a similar experience, or i should say, terrence did, in that after a megadose of mushrooms, he was unable to speak for a month, while being able to telepathically communicate with his brother. So that is a story of a longer-term psilocybin<sp> effect in a similar vein to your story.

 

They are like little flashlights, aren't they?

 

 

Of course, psychiatrists might not make much sense of this since their ``art`` is all about thinking and would make no sense without thinking, nor could it discover much about the virtues of not thinking since it only cares about things which can be explained with logical thinking. Quite a pickle that puts them in, imo. It's like a bad comedy with really lame jokes, only it's real, and it has the power to prescribe insanity (ie, continuing this line of thinking) and decide who the deciders are..

 

I run into this problem when speaking with psych students, actually a guy last night at a bon fire was diagnosing everything and it made me a little uneasy. It is a science based around looking at a condition in the most negative light possible, which gives power to the illness and ignores holistic lifestyle factors in a lot of cases. I do enjoy speaking with my friend who is getting a PhD in evolutionary psychology, an entertaining field to learn about. In general I think it is a gear in the pharmaceutical drug racket and keeps people in neat little category's so we can feel safe and, yes more "sane" as Owledge put nicely.

[oildrops]

as you are probably aware, terrence and dennis mckenna had a similar experience, or i should say, terrence did, in that after a megadose of mushrooms, he was unable to speak for a month, while being able to telepathically communicate with his brother. So that is a story of a longer-term psilocybin<sp> effect in a similar vein to your story.

 

They are like little flashlights, aren't they?

 

 

Of course, psychiatrists might not make much sense of this since their ``art`` is all about thinking and would make no sense without thinking, nor could it discover much about the virtues of not thinking since it only cares about things which can be explained with logical thinking. Quite a pickle that puts them in, imo. It's like a bad comedy with really lame jokes, only it's real, and it has the power to prescribe insanity (ie, continuing this line of thinking) and decide who the deciders are..

 

I run into this problem when speaking with psych students, actually a guy last night at a bon fire was diagnosing everything and it made me a little uneasy. It is a science based around looking at a condition in the most negative light possible, which gives power to the illness and ignores holistic lifestyle factors in a lot of cases.

I think it is a gear in the pharmaceutical drug racket and keeps people in neat little categories so we can feel safe and, yes more "sane" as Owledge put nicely.

Edited March 25, 2012 by oildrops

[64changes]

The amount of folk I know that have ended up turning to psychiatry, and come away hating there own Mothers is ridiculous.

 

What I ended up with is probably more akin to the "Dead tree zen" alluded too earlier.

But even that had some usefulness, more so than psyche, i believe.