Estimating Tai Chi

[Meow]

Hello everybody,

 

I want to incorporate Tai Chi into my own practices, and I'm trying to find out if that's a good idea. So far my understanding is a little muddled, I never was into tai chi before.

 

So, as I understood, the purpose of it is to enter a special state of mind. I'm trying to find out whether it's something that I need or not. The teacher we have here said that you become empty by relaxing body and mind, and then you can enter that special state. He's a little hard to access to ask further questions for now, but I'm working on it.

 

From other sources as I understand them tai-chi is about:

- shut down your mind, learn to feel chi

- condense chi to convert it into jin

- now you can do "impossible" stuff

 

So what exactly is that special state he talked about? It's sort of the goal of it all, as I see it. Jin is just a nice addition, helpful for creating proof that what you do is actually working. However, I'm not exactly looking to send condensed chi to others in whatever form. My interests are more "meditationary", and I'm basically looking for something that can either enhance my meditation or simply give me some health benefits.

 

And so it sounds to me that tai chi does not provide for my interests that much, it doesn't go as far as something else would go, finding its ending in jin creation and manipulation. However, what exactly is that state that supposedly allows people to do all this stuff? Maybe it could be comlimentary if I understood a little better what it is and how it's different from others.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Meow

[Protector]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Moontagu/videos

[Meow]

Which one of those videos can answer my questions?

[Protector]

hmmmmmm first start with this video

after watching the video click on the '439 videos' button and choose a video to the left and watch that one

after watching that video, repeat the process with every video on the channel

 

after that you wont have any questions ever again

[Meow]

That video doesn't address my questions, it shows a form.

[Protector]

I can't navigate through all the videos perfectly myself but there's a lot of information about tai chi and other soft styles

You should try using these videos as a guide and as you watch them you might understand what it's all about

[RiverSnake]

Tai Chi is a martial art. It is also a form of internal alchemy.

 

It is a great practice...if you enjoy it then practice it...if you practice it but it doesn't resonate with you personally then toss it.

 

Also i am all about keeping one's practices simple and straightforward. If you think it will interfere and not compliment your current practices then don't bother with it.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited March 16, 2012 by OldGreen

[Mokona]

[Mokona]

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Edited March 16, 2012 by Mokona

[Meow]

Let's put it this way. I've described what I think about tai chi in the first post, is something wrong, is something right?

 

I'm not a fan of tai chi in particular who's looking to get as much info on it as possible, in order to do it better. I'm just a person who wants to know if it suits my wishes or not.

 

Here's a clarifying question:

 

The state they talk about, is it, for the lack of better word, enlightenement? It's supposed to be a slightly different thing in different teachings, so even answering yes is not really enough. What sort of enlightenment is it like? And is it one or not?

 

In alchemy they talk about converting chi into shen, but I don't see this being done in tai chi at all, which puzzles me. They locate chi and convert it into jin, and that's it.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Meow

[Mokona]

I haven't taken Tai Chi to that sort of level,

 

What I have experienced is a sense of amazing calm and relaxedness, but it's no enlightenment.

 

For a better answer, PM TajiBum, or Stigward(Both very adept practictioners of Tai Chi and can probably answer your questions DIRECTLY)

 

Also, you can browse TideWater Tai Chi(Google) and email Donald Davis for his opinion.

 

Good luck.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Mokona

[Meow]

Thanks I'll follow your advice.

[doc benway]

Let's put it this way. I've described what I think about tai chi in the first post, is something wrong, is something right?

 

I'm not a fan of tai chi in particular who's looking to get as much info on it as possible, in order to do it better. I'm just a person who wants to know if it suits my wishes or not.

 

Here's a clarifying question:

 

The state they talk about, is it, for the lack of better word, enlightenement? It's supposed to be a slightly different thing in different teachings, so even answering yes is not really enough. What sort of enlightenment is it like? And is it one or not?

 

In alchemy they talk about converting chi into shen, but I don't see this being done in tai chi at all, which puzzles me. They locate chi and convert it into jing, and that's it.

A few thoughts and opinions based on my experience with studying, practicing, and teaching Taijiquan (Tai Chi).

 

Taijiquan is a martial art that includes multiple elements. What you see most commonly is practice of Taijiquan forms. This is the slow moving, meditative dance. Based on what you describe in your opening post, I think that you could potentially benefit a great deal from proper instruction in Taijiquan. The basics that would help you along your path include standing meditation, breathing, and practice of the form. There are many other practices which you can get into later, if you like.

 

The reason that the forms are practiced in slow motion is to allow the student to develop a very deep connection between mind and body. This includes developing a high level of awareness and sensitivity as to what is going on in the mind, body, and environment.

In order to develop the mind/body connection, one has to achieve a level of tranquility of the mind. This is basically the same type of mental tranquility that we cultivate in sitting meditation practice. The difference is that it is connected with breathing and body movement. This is an extremely beneficial practice that can greatly enhance every aspect of your life. This is the same thing that goes on in proper Qigong (Chi Kung) practice.

 

As the mind learns to be tranquil, awareness develops. Awareness is the key to everything. You become more in touch with how your body feels, functions, and moves. You develop a deeper understanding and control of how the mind controls the body and how the body controls the mind. You eventually develop a level of mind/body coordination that can allow you to do things that might seem to the uninitiated as "magical" or "superhuman" but it is simply proper use of mind, body, and spirit. Some of the higher levels of attainment can only be achieved by incorporating certain sitting meditation practices but that is way in the future if you are just starting out.

 

I would highly recommend Taijiquan if you are interested in developing a healthier mind and body, if you are interested in the cultivation of internal energy, or if you are interested in an exploration of yourself. There are plenty of other practices that offer similar benefits (Qigong, Yoga, etc...). In my experience, however, Taijiquan practice by itself will not result in some of the very deep spiritual awakenings that one encounters with more dedicated practice of meditation and self inquiry, but it is a VERY good complimentary practice to coordinate the spiritual development with cultivation of a healthy body, mind, and spirit.

 

The alchemical practices that convert Jing to Qi to Shen to Wu are not a part of the normal Taijquan curriculum. They are beneficial practices in their own right and are elements of Daoist meditation methods. These are the methods I referred to earlier that are important in the development of high level Taijiquan skills. They are not needed in the first few years of practice but can be added as a very beneficial supplement at any time (provided, of course, that you have credible instruction).

 

Good luck with your journey!

[flowing hands]

Hello everybody,

 

I want to incorporate Tai Chi into my own practices, and I'm trying to find out if that's a good idea. So far my understanding is a little muddled, I never was into tai chi before.

 

So, as I understood, the purpose of it is to enter a special state of mind. I'm trying to find out whether it's something that I need or not. The teacher we have here said that you become empty by relaxing body and mind, and then you can enter that special state. He's a little hard to access to ask further questions for now, but I'm working on it.

 

From other sources as I understand them tai-chi is about:

- shut down your mind, learn to feel chi

- condense chi to convert it into jing

- now you can do "impossible" stuff

 

So what exactly is that special state he talked about? It's sort of the goal of it all, as I see it. Jing is just a nice addition, helpful for creating proof that what you do is actually working. However, I'm not exactly looking to send condensed chi to others in whatever form. My interests are more "meditationary", and I'm basically looking for something that can either enhance my meditation or simply give me some health benefits.

 

And so it sounds to me that tai chi does not provide for my interests that much, it doesn't go as far as something else would go, finding its ending in jing creation and manipulation. However, what exactly is that state that supposedly allows people to do all this stuff? Maybe it could be comlimentary if I understood a little better what it is and how it's different from others.

 

Taijiquan is a martial art, it was firstly practiced quickly with the spirit of various animals and techniques, some relaxed, some soft, some hard and powerful. It has over the years been slowed down for various reason till its roots have been lost in 'moving meditation' and non martial techniques. If you want to learn something to compliment your meditation then this ideal how it is generally taught today.

Qi means 'life force'

Jing means inherited vital essence.

jin means internal strength.

 

From jing your body is nourished by the production of Qi from jing.

From Qi stored in the lower dan tien, jin can be developed.

'fa jing' is a misnomer as you are sending out 'qi' which comes from 'jing'. If you deplete your qi so your jing will have to replace it. If your jing is not great so your qi will not be replaced very well. Those that do not have good jing should not 'send out' their qi very often. The store is all important.

[Clarity]

My interests are more "meditationary", and I'm basically looking for something that can either enhance my meditation or simply give me some health benefits.

 

If these are really your goals then it's perfectly suited. Professor Chen Man Ching (my teacher's teacher) says that for the time invested, there is no better exercise for health than Tai Chi. He also emphasized just how important it is for women.

 

I took up Tai Chi to improve my health after I got out of the hospital a few years ago. I can safely say that with daily practice your health will improve. I know this has been true for me.

 

My teacher also teaches Tai Chi as a real martial art, so we do the application (pushing hands) because it really is the only way to know if you are doing the form as intended. I never had a real interest in the fighting or martial side of it, but it's a good litmus test for your form.

 

The principles of Tai Chi (following, yielding, sinking, advancing and so on) is not just for martial application, it can be applied to your everyday life too.

 

So Tai Chi has application for body, mind, and spirit. It is very deep. There's a good reason the Chinese call it 'Grand Ultimate Fist.'

[doc benway]

 

'fa jing' is a misnomer as you are sending out 'qi' which comes from 'jing'. If you deplete your qi so your jing will have to replace it. If your jing is not great so your qi will not be replaced very well. Those that do not have good jing should not 'send out' their qi very often. The store is all important.

Respectfully, you are confusing jin (勁) and jing (精).

發勁 is what you are referring to. It is not fa jing, it is fa jin.

Fa jin is NOT a misnomer.

勁 = jin can be translated as power or force.

精 = jing which is reproductive or generative potential or essence.

發 = fa and can be translated as issue, send out, or emit

發勁 or Fa jin simply means to issue force and practically speaking refers to explosive force generated over a short distance.

[Meow]

My teacher also teaches Tai Chi as a real martial art, so we do the application (pushing hands) because it really is the only way to know if you are doing the form as intended. I never had a real interest in the fighting or martial side of it, but it's a good litmus test for your form.

That's the most attractive thing about it, it can be checked one way or another. I've been looking for something that wasn't limited to being a purely subjective experience and could be observed by others.

 

Jing means inherited vital essence.

jin means internal strength.

 

From jing your body is nourished by the production of Qi from jing.

From Qi stored in the lower dan tien, jin can be developed.

Oh, so they're written differently! In that case any time I mentioned it in my first post, it was supposed to be jin, not jing. I'll have to fix that.

 

steve, thank you for the explanation.

[flowing hands]

Respectfully, you are confusing jin (勁) and jing (精).

發勁 is what you are referring to. It is not fa jing, it is fa jin.

Fa jin is NOT a misnomer.

勁 = jin can be translated as power or force.

精 = jing which is reproductive or generative potential or essence.

發 = fa and can be translated as issue, send out, or emit

發勁 or Fa jin simply means to issue force and practically speaking refers to explosive force generated over a short distance.

 

Ah yes, my mistake, it is difficult to follow peoples meaning sometimes when they use only phonetic words. I have seen 'fa Jin' written on this site as 'fa jing'. There are so many ways of writing Chinese words in English that it can become a little confusing. I thought that the first post was using Jing meaning inherited essence and then emitting this. Really we should be using the word 'Dow' to be correct phonetically, instead of 'Tao'. Then of course there is so much difference in dialect that can complicate the matter even further!

'Fa jin' is just a broad label for many types of sending out arts and can mean many different things to many people, depending on the school of teaching.

[Taomeow]

Well, however it is written, the important thing to understand is that taiji stores, not uses up, your jing, qi, and shen. (Issuing force -- fajin -- also does not mean you are using anything up, the circular moves return the expenditures of qi back to you, every "up" is followed by a "down," every "out" by an "in" and every "release" by "gather." Besides, you don't issue your muscular force in fajin, you issue a redirecting vector that interferes with the opponent's force rather than exerting your own. This, of course, is a later skill, beginners can be fully expected to fajin with li, muscular force, but a good teacher does not ask beginners to fajin until they know how.) So, unlike with all sports and hard style MA, you grow stronger with taiji as you grow older, instead of weaker.

 

This is the beauty of this art, one of many -- you don't expect to reach a certain level and then go downhill from there, the way you would with skating or boxing or running or wrestling or gymnastics or anything else. You expect, and rightfully so, that for as long as you practice, your skill will keep growing, and there's no payback later, no enlarged heart and Parkinson's as in boxing, no arthritis and kidney and reproductive disease as in ballet and gymnasitcs, no busted knees as in running and football and what-not (with a caveat -- taiji has to be practiced under a knowledgeable master who will teach you how to keep your knees in good repair, they are the potential trouble spot in this endeavor if it's done incorrectly, but not at all if done with proper alignments), and so on.

 

Of course someone very young does not always think ahead when choosing an activity, so this may or may not be a consideration. If you are not wowed beyond repair by the logic and beauty of taiji movements, you may be disappointed... but if you are, if something in you resonates with its inherent perfection, you will want that for yourself. My first encounter with my teacher of a few years was like that -- every cell of my body proclaimed, "this is who I want to be!" (not in the sense I want to be a Chinese male, of course, but in the sense of someone who owns space-time instead of renting it the way we all do...)

[doc benway]

but in the sense of someone who owns space-time instead of renting it the way we all do...)

 

[flowing hands]

Well, however it is written, the important thing to understand is that taiji stores, not uses up, your jing, qi, and shen. (Issuing force -- fajin -- also does not mean you are using anything up, the circular moves return the expenditures of qi back to you, every "up" is followed by a "down," every "out" by an "in" and every "release" by "gather." Besides, you don't issue your muscular force in fajin, you issue a redirecting vector that interferes with the opponent's force rather than exerting your own. This, of course, is a later skill, beginners can be fully expected to fajin with li, muscular force, but a good teacher does not ask beginners to fajin until they know how.) So, unlike with all sports and hard style MA, you grow stronger with taiji as you grow older, instead of weaker.

 

This is the beauty of this art, one of many -- you don't expect to reach a certain level and then go downhill from there, the way you would with skating or boxing or running or wrestling or gymnastics or anything else. You expect, and rightfully so, that for as long as you practice, your skill will keep growing, and there's no payback later, no enlarged heart and Parkinson's as in boxing, no arthritis and kidney and reproductive disease as in ballet and gymnasitcs, no busted knees as in running and football and what-not (with a caveat -- taiji has to be practiced under a knowledgeable master who will teach you how to keep your knees in good repair, they are the potential trouble spot in this endeavor if it's done incorrectly, but not at all if done with proper alignments), and so on.

 

Of course someone very young does not always think ahead when choosing an activity, so this may or may not be a consideration. If you are not wowed beyond repair by the logic and beauty of taiji movements, you may be disappointed... but if you are, if something in you resonates with its inherent perfection, you will want that for yourself. My first encounter with my teacher of a few years was like that -- every cell of my body proclaimed, "this is who I want to be!" (not in the sense I want to be a Chinese male, of course, but in the sense of someone who owns space-time instead of renting it the way we all do...)

 

Tai Ji Quan people beleive the style came from Zhang Shanfeng of around the 12th century AD. He certainly invented one style at that time. But I have practiced a style that pre-dates this to before Li Erh's time. 'Pre harmony boxing, 'Tao harmony boxing', are styles that pre-date Tai Ji Quan of Zhang Shanfeng. The Tai ji Quan that I was taught is practiced like one normally practices a modern wu shu form. Slow bits, fast bits, dynamic bits and hard bits. Very aerobic, has powerful internal and external training methods with it. It is part of a whole system, which includes TCM and using this for your health and joints. The bits of training that may damage joints are immediately treated with medicine after practice. Like 'iron palm' training, different grades of medicine are used to help the body. Traditional Tai ji incorporates this because if you strike your opponent with your hand in any way, if it is not 'conditioned' you will only hurt your own hand. Whatever you do, don't say well you should be able to lightly deflect your opponents blows etc. Anyone who has been in a real fight will know that yes, one can deflect some, but will have to take some others and use hard blocking and grappling techniques, in hope to come out in one piece!

My point is this; don't get hung up on Tai ji as only limited to being 'soft' and gentle and maintaining the integrity of the body, because this is not true, because to stimulate and to challenge your bodies internal mechanisms means you have to do hard exercise first of all, which 'conditions' your body to store energy and make it available to use. In my long years of practicing I have not come across anyone from the Tai Ji schools who could perform a 'fa jin' (hope I've got that right!) properly.

Take out the equation a real person and put a heavy inanimate object and they are useless. If you have a powerful 'fa', whatever it is, a person or the object, it will move.

Dan Docherty (practical Tai chi)in England, made a challenge for anyone to knock him down without touching him (fa jin) and he would give the person if successful many thousands of pounds. No one has done it yet that I know of, in fifteen years!! Why? I tell you why because the wrong thought has been overtaken in the vast majority of Tai ji practice. This is that the more relaxed and soft you are the better your qi will develop. That's a myth, think about it, it doesn't make sense in relation to the universe and our bodies.

[Taiji Bum]

Meditation, alchemy, nei gong, give you more jin, jing, chi and shen while qi gong and taijiquan teach you how to use it. The "special" state of mind you may have heard about is probably the state of "no-mind" where magic happens. The quickest way to experience this state of mind first hand is to watch falling water such as a water fall large enough to command all your attention. Just watch the falling water and after awhile you state of mind will shift from monkey mind to no-mind. The water will seem to stop but it is really your mind that is stopping.

 

Ever had something fall off a table and without thinking you reach out and catch it without thinking? You laugh and say I couldn't do that again in a million years? That is the state of mind that taijiquan is meant to develop. It is a calm, peaceful, impartial observer awareness that makes normal awareness seem pretty lame. Developing that state of no-mind in a reliable way was a huge secret in IMA circles since ancient times. Its one of those simple, yet hard things. The slow moving form is designed to develop no-mind as are the standing postures.

 

If you have no real interest in taijiquan then its just adding to your knowledge when if your looking for enlightenment you should be simplifying.

 

Thanks for the compliment, Mokona.

[doc benway]

 

Dan Docherty (practical Tai chi)in England, made a challenge for anyone to knock him down without touching him (fa jin) and he would give the person if successful many thousands of pounds. No one has done it yet that I know of, in fifteen years!! Why? I tell you why because the wrong thought has been overtaken in the vast majority of Tai ji practice. This is that the more relaxed and soft you are the better your qi will develop. That's a myth, think about it, it doesn't make sense in relation to the universe and our bodies.

 

Fa Jin does NOT mean to attack or strike without touching.

My apologies to Flowing Hands for posting an insulting comment in my initial post.

It has been removed and I have learned from my insensitivity.

 

Taijiquan combat is unique in that it adheres to the principles of 沾黏連隨不丟頂 Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding.

This means to touch, stick, connect, follow, don't separate or resist.

This is what separates it from the external approaches, and other internals, for that matter, in this, or any other age.

In Taijiquan, since its inception, the practitioner stays very close to his opponent - always in physical contact.

As a result, a different kind of strike had to develop to be effective at such close range, traditional striking with the hand becomes much less effective.

Fa Jin is the method of generating powerful force over short distance.

Because of this fact, it has a very different effect on the opponent - it has more of a penetrating effect and has a tendency to damage internally and propel. It is not magic, it is physics.

If I punch a heavy wooden dresser with my fist, I may crack the surface of the wood, the dresser won't move much.

If I strike it with a powerful shove from a starting point of physical contact (Ji or An), I will rattle the contents and move the entire dresser - this is the difference.

Nothing about Fa Jin implies that you do not touch your opponent.

 

You are correct that Taijiquan is not all soft - it is balance.

It is the martial application of Yin and Yang.

Soft and hard, light and heavy, etc...

 

You are mistaken to say that being soft and relaxed do not help the Qi to develop. Three requirements of form practice in Taijiquan are to be Song 鬆, Jing 靜, and Zi Ran 自然 . Song means a relaxation but not collapsed, I usually describe it as relaxed structure. Jing is calm and Zi Ran is natural. These three requirements specifically help the student to culture the Qi during practice of the form, or perhaps better stated to develop the Yi/Qi coordination.

Edited March 20, 2012 by steve
Removed insulting comment and apology

[flowing hands]

Fa Jin does NOT mean to attack or strike without touching.

During one of your many incarnations, you must have suffered from some lapse of memory or gotten confused my friend.

 

Taijiquan combat is unique in that it adheres to the principles of 沾黏連隨不丟頂 Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding.

This means to touch, stick, connect, follow, don't separate or resist.

This is what separates it from the external approaches, and other internals, for that matter, in this, or any other age.

In Taijiquan, since its inception, the practitioner stays very close to his opponent - always in physical contact.

As a result, a different kind of strike had to develop to be effective at such close range, traditional striking with the hand becomes much less effective.

Fa Jin is the method of generating powerful force over short distance.

Because of this fact, it has a very different effect on the opponent - it has more of a penetrating effect and has a tendency to damage internally and propel. It is not magic, it is physics.

If I punch a heavy wooden dresser with my fist, I may crack the surface of the wood, the dresser won't move much.

If I strike it with a powerful shove from a starting point of physical contact (Ji or An), I will rattle the contents and move the entire dresser - this is the difference.

Nothing about Fa Jin implies that you do not touch your opponent.

 

You are correct that Taijiquan is not all soft - it is balance.

It is the martial application of Yin and Yang.

Soft and hard, light and heavy, etc...

 

You are mistaken to say that being soft and relaxed do not help the Qi to develop. Three requirements of form practice in Taijiquan are to be Song 鬆, Jing 靜, and Zi Ran 自然 . Song means a relaxation but not collapsed, I usually describe it as relaxed structure. Jing is calm and Zi Ran is natural. These three requirements specifically help the student to culture the Qi during practice of the form, or perhaps better stated to develop the Yi/Qi coordination.

 

No it doesn't but generally people believe that it means this. There are many ways of 'fa' touching and non touching. The greater majority of 'fa' practices are non contact. A moderator is supposed to show by example, mock me at you own derision! You show yourself up as being arrogant and unable to be open, only to what you have been taught by someone else. There is many different schools of practice and thought, not just Tai ji. Remain open you may learn something, I have not derided you for your lack of understanding have I?

Edited March 18, 2012 by flowing hands

[dwai]

Hello everybody,

 

I want to incorporate Tai Chi into my own practices, and I'm trying to find out if that's a good idea. So far my understanding is a little muddled, I never was into tai chi before.

 

So, as I understood, the purpose of it is to enter a special state of mind. I'm trying to find out whether it's something that I need or not. The teacher we have here said that you become empty by relaxing body and mind, and then you can enter that special state. He's a little hard to access to ask further questions for now, but I'm working on it.

 

From other sources as I understand them tai-chi is about:

- shut down your mind, learn to feel chi

- condense chi to convert it into jin

- now you can do "impossible" stuff

 

So what exactly is that special state he talked about? It's sort of the goal of it all, as I see it. Jin is just a nice addition, helpful for creating proof that what you do is actually working. However, I'm not exactly looking to send condensed chi to others in whatever form. My interests are more "meditationary", and I'm basically looking for something that can either enhance my meditation or simply give me some health benefits.

 

And so it sounds to me that tai chi does not provide for my interests that much, it doesn't go as far as something else would go, finding its ending in jin creation and manipulation. However, what exactly is that state that supposedly allows people to do all this stuff? Maybe it could be comlimentary if I understood a little better what it is and how it's different from others.

 

In the school of tai chi i learn, we are told there are three levels of tai chi practice. One is martial arts...the lowest level. Second is healing and highest level is spiritual transformation.

 

So you dont have send condensed jin into any one...you could do condensing to make your chi vibrate faster and faster....till it matches the vibrational frequency of dao....that is spiritual transformation.

 

When tai chi practice matures you will get to competely thoughtless state....there is your true self....pure consciousness.