Estimating Tai Chi

[dwai]

A few thoughts and opinions based on my experience with studying, practicing, and teaching Taijiquan (Tai Chi).

 

Taijiquan is a martial art that includes multiple elements. What you see most commonly is practice of Taijiquan forms. This is the slow moving, meditative dance. Based on what you describe in your opening post, I think that you could potentially benefit a great deal from proper instruction in Taijiquan. The basics that would help you along your path include standing meditation, breathing, and practice of the form. There are many other practices which you can get into later, if you like.

 

The reason that the forms are practiced in slow motion is to allow the student to develop a very deep connection between mind and body. This includes developing a high level of awareness and sensitivity as to what is going on in the mind, body, and environment.

In order to develop the mind/body connection, one has to achieve a level of tranquility of the mind. This is basically the same type of mental tranquility that we cultivate in sitting meditation practice. The difference is that it is connected with breathing and body movement. This is an extremely beneficial practice that can greatly enhance every aspect of your life. This is the same thing that goes on in proper Qigong (Chi Kung) practice.

 

As the mind learns to be tranquil, awareness develops. Awareness is the key to everything. You become more in touch with how your body feels, functions, and moves. You develop a deeper understanding and control of how the mind controls the body and how the body controls the mind. You eventually develop a level of mind/body coordination that can allow you to do things that might seem to the uninitiated as "magical" or "superhuman" but it is simply proper use of mind, body, and spirit. Some of the higher levels of attainment can only be achieved by incorporating certain sitting meditation practices but that is way in the future if you are just starting out.

 

I would highly recommend Taijiquan if you are interested in developing a healthier mind and body, if you are interested in the cultivation of internal energy, or if you are interested in an exploration of yourself. There are plenty of other practices that offer similar benefits (Qigong, Yoga, etc...). In my experience, however, Taijiquan practice by itself will not result in some of the very deep spiritual awakenings that one encounters with more dedicated practice of meditation and self inquiry, but it is a VERY good complimentary practice to coordinate the spiritual development with cultivation of a healthy body, mind, and spirit.

 

The alchemical practices that convert Jing to Qi to Shen to Wu are not a part of the normal Taijquan curriculum. They are beneficial practices in their own right and are elements of Daoist meditation methods. These are the methods I referred to earlier that are important in the development of high level Taijiquan skills. They are not needed in the first few years of practice but can be added as a very beneficial supplement at any time (provided, of course, that you have credible instruction).

 

Good luck with your journey!

 

Hi steve,

 

Its important to find a teacher who can take one fom basic taiji practice to true nei gong. In Mater liao's system we are taught that. It takes time....funny thing is even though i was taught the same meditations 5 years ago (daoist prayer hands, etc) it didnt make sense until 5 years after.

[Taomeow]

In the school of tai chi i learn, we are told there are three levels of tai chi practice. One is martial arts...the lowest level. Second is healing and highest level is spiritual transformation.

 

Which school is that?

 

The way I am taught, martial or healing or spiritual are all aspects of applications and they are all taught simultaneously, while the "level" is determined by your skill, not by which application you are using it for at a given moment. It is not a linear progression from martial to healing to spiritual. You can't view "martial" as "the lowest level" because it doesn't go away at the "highest" level and does not transform into something else without your intent, the area of application of your free will at all levels of training. How you are going to use your taiji and what for is a spiritual task for you to determine, which is there at all levels of your proficiency. In other words, taiji does not tell you what you want it for. You tell it what you want it for. As Chen Bing put it when he was giving a workshop at my school, "you don't serve taiji, taiji serves you."

[dwai]

Which school is that?

 

The way I am taught, martial or healing or spiritual are all aspects of applications and they are all taught simultaneously, while the "level" is determined by your skill, not by which application you are using it for at a given moment. It is not a linear progression from martial to healing to spiritual. You can't view "martial" as "the lowest level" because it doesn't go away at the "highest" level and does not transform into something else without your intent, the area of application of your free will at all levels of training. How you are going to use your taiji and what for is a spiritual task for you to determine, which is there at all levels of your proficiency. In other words, taiji does not tell you what you want it for. You tell it what you want it for. As Chen Bing put it when he was giving a workshop at my school, "you don't serve taiji, taiji serves you."

. It is called Temple style tai chi as taught by master waysun liao. The long form is idntical to prof chen manching's but the way we are taught each single form first...then piece together the long form.

 

What i have seen is that martial application cultivates a low frequency energy and intent is different from if one practices healing or spiritual level.my intention was no to "knock" martial taiji players. I was conveying what our teacher says about the matter. Yeah, we learn all the things needed to do martial application...condensing, fa jin, applications of neutralization, folding, push hands, ta lu etc.

 

Here is what my teacher says about martial vs spiritual. A spiritual player is in the state of no enemy no self. So there is no scope of conflict with a high level taiji player...because its almost like he/she is not there....which is different from martial approach where conflict is neutralized, diffused etc with effort.

 

At high level tai chi is resonating with dao...so there no telling it anything...you follow where the energy takes you

Edited March 18, 2012 by dwai

[Ya Mu]

How many Tai Jee teachers does it take to change a lightbulb?

10

One to actually do it and 9 to say, no, THIS is how we do it.

 

Interesting views here.

 

Whether Fa Jin is contact applied or externally applied it can be very real in developed practitioners. I remember when I met Y W Chang. In his mid - 90's and tells me to hit him. He insisted, otherwise he would not teach me his Hsing I. So I tried and ended up flying toward the wall. I got to experience this Fa Jin 1st hand. Master Chang always referred to himself as Chen Pan Ling's senior student and had been practicing since age 6. He taught Chen Pan Ling Tai Jee; most definitely a martial system with other applications as well.

 

There was an article in one of the magazines a few years back (maybe 7-10 years ago), forget which one (possibly Qi). The article documented when these forms went from being done fast to slow and said it was due to the most recognized master of the time getting injured. When he healed enough to start back practicing he had to perform the movements very slow. Since he was the most recognized, all the other teachers started copying him.

Chang, on the other hand, said that it was practiced slow to learn it. In application, of course, very fast.

I have no idea how accurate that magazine story was. But it was interesting.

 

OP.

The only way for you to know if you like it is to try it. If you don't, then you may wish to look at movement qigong as an easier to learn alternative (no martial application).

[Taomeow]

. It is called Temple style tai chi as taught by master waysun liao. The long form is idntical to prof chen manching's but the way we are taught each single form first...then piece together the long form.

 

 

Oh, Yang style. Well, it's good to know that the long form is identical to Chen Manching's -- I am very wary of teachers who "invent" forms. Chen Manching got his Yang from Yang Chengfu, and it has to be identical unless he's a close blood relative (no one else has the right to change the family form -- or, if they do, they have no right to claim lineage, they have to present the form as their own. No taiji master in his right mind will do this to a lineage form. Only movie stars like Bruce Lee and other ego-driven showmen/women. ) But if it is identical why is it called something else?

 

Unlike "what" to teach, "how" to teach it is up to the teacher, what you describe is not different from the way you would learn any long form piece by piece. Different teachers will spend different amounts of time on each move. We spent a few years on the form I practice (Chen laojia) with an incrementally increasing detailing of each move, did the whole form for a couple of years, and then started from the beginning at an even slower pace, again each move by itself but this time with more and more fine-tuning. It's great. The second time around it's like a different world.

 

What i have seen is that martial application cultivates a low frequency energy and intent is different from if one practices healing or spiritual level.

 

Not my experience. I've no idea what "seeing the frequency of energy" means, but I've seen great compassionate folks, friends some of them, who are formidable martial artists.

 

my intention was no to "knock" martial taiji players. I was conveying what our teacher says about the matter. Yeah, we learn all the things needed to do martial application...condensing, fa jin, applications of neutralization, folding, push hands, ta lu etc.

 

Here is what my teacher says about martial vs spiritual. A spiritual player is in the state of no enemy no self. So there is no scope of conflict with a high level taiji player...because its almost like he/she is not there....which is different from martial approach where conflict is neutralized, diffused etc with effort.

 

At high level tai chi is resonating with dao...so there no telling it anything...you follow where the energy takes you

 

The state your teacher describes is right on I think. But "there's no telling it anything" is for those who are not, how shall I put it, "entitled" to interfere. Someone who operates in tune with tao does not surrender her free will, only her free whim, so to speak, wrongful impulses to "do" or "not do" -- but not the capacity for co-creation, tao's gift to her children who are never, ever, at any level, her puppets. But don't let me digress too far.

[dwai]

Oh, Yang style. Well, it's good to know that the long form is identical to Chen Manching's -- I am very wary of teachers who "invent" forms. Chen Manching got his Yang from Yang Chengfu, and it has to be identical unless he's a close blood relative (no one else has the right to change the family form -- or, if they do, they have no right to claim lineage, they have to present the form as their own. No taiji master in his right mind will do this to a lineage form. Only movie stars like Bruce Lee and other ego-driven showmen/women. ) But if it is identical why is it called something else?

 

it is called as such because that is how master liao learnt it at a daoist temple in taiwan from his childhood. Interestingly enough he was also chen man ching's chess buddy. I can tell you one thing that the way the material is taught is unlike any other type i have encountered. The emphasis is in single forms...repetitions. Upward downward, ineard outward, raised hands stance, tai chi stance, single whip, spilt, so on. The forms are broken into 3 sections...end of each section completes one aspect of the long form. After the three sections, the full long form is put together.

 

Each energy (8 nrgs) is practiced via the single forms till we get a good feel for how it flows, cultivating, refining, so on. Afaik, cmc never taught his taichi that way. Different applications of the energies..,on different planes and axis...

 

Master liao says that that is how tai chi really was praticed in the temples...not moving on beyond a certAin form before one is ready for the next.

 

 

Unlike "what" to teach, "how" to teach it is up to the teacher, what you describe is not different from the way you would learn any long form piece by piece. Different teachers will spend different amounts of time on each move. We spent a few years on the form I practice (Chen laojia) with an incrementally increasing detailing of each move, did the whole form for a couple of years, and then started from the beginning at an even slower pace, again each move by itself but this time with more and more fine-tuning. It's great. The second time around it's like a different world.

 

 

 

Not my experience. I've no idea what "seeing the frequency of energy" means, but I've seen great compassionate folks, friends some of them, who are formidable martial artists.

 

 

 

The state your teacher describes is right on I think. But "there's no telling it anything" is for those who are not, how shall I put it, "entitled" to interfere. Someone who operates in tune with tao does not surrender her free will, only her free whim, so to speak, wrongful impulses to "do" or "not do" -- but not the capacity for co-creation, tao's gift to her children who are never, ever, at any level, her puppets. But don't let me digress too far.

 

Hmm...something to thinng about. To explain how the energy might feel low freq. or high...analogy i can give is the feeling one gets if one walks into a room where there was a lot anger or tension. The energy feels heavy, pulsing slowly..

 

As oppossed to walking into a meditation hall or a good yoga studio....where the energy feels light and higher freq. i cant see energy but can feel it...kind of like how during push hands we can feel where the energy is, how yin or yang to mae ourselves...which part to empty out, which to make full....etc.

 

http://www.willamette.edu/~jlaronge/seven.html

 

This explains how we are taught quite well...also ive heard from my teacher that master liao moved way from martial focus to meditative over the years (iirc he started teaching in mid 70s )

Edited March 19, 2012 by dwai

[Stigweard]

Hello everybody,

 

I want to incorporate Tai Chi into my own practices, and I'm trying to find out if that's a good idea. So far my understanding is a little muddled, I never was into tai chi before.

 

So, as I understood, the purpose of it is to enter a special state of mind. I'm trying to find out whether it's something that I need or not. The teacher we have here said that you become empty by relaxing body and mind, and then you can enter that special state. He's a little hard to access to ask further questions for now, but I'm working on it.

 

From other sources as I understand them tai-chi is about:

- shut down your mind, learn to feel chi

- condense chi to convert it into jin

- now you can do "impossible" stuff

 

So what exactly is that special state he talked about? It's sort of the goal of it all, as I see it. Jin is just a nice addition, helpful for creating proof that what you do is actually working. However, I'm not exactly looking to send condensed chi to others in whatever form. My interests are more "meditationary", and I'm basically looking for something that can either enhance my meditation or simply give me some health benefits.

 

And so it sounds to me that tai chi does not provide for my interests that much, it doesn't go as far as something else would go, finding its ending in jin creation and manipulation. However, what exactly is that state that supposedly allows people to do all this stuff? Maybe it could be comlimentary if I understood a little better what it is and how it's different from others.

Hiya Meow,

 

Thanks for the PM requesting I respond to your OP.

 

As I understand it, you have come to understand that Taijiquan engenders a particular "state of mind" and you are wanting to pre-determine if that alignment of awareness "fits" with your path of cultivation.

 

Is this right?

 

Firstly, I would recommend you have a very close read of what Steve has written above:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22963-estimating-tai-chi/page__view__findpost__p__328176

 

His comments come from his many years of practical training in Taijiquan and thus are invaluable IMO.

 

I would also refer you to a brief article I have written that may also point you in a direction:

 

What Is Tai Chi Chuan, Where Does It Come From, and What's In It For You?

 

And more directly in response to your question, you might like to read this article:

 

The Three "Rings of Power" In Tai Chi Chuan

 

Thank you for your sincere inquiry Meow, hope this helps.

 

[Meow]

Thank you all for your helpful replies!

[doc benway]

No it doesn't but generally people believe that it means this. There are many ways of 'fa' touching and non touching. The greater majority of 'fa' practices are non contact. A moderator is supposed to show by example, mock me at you own derision! You show yourself up as being arrogant and unable to be open, only to what you have been taught by someone else. There is many different schools of practice and thought, not just Tai ji. Remain open you may learn something, I have not derided you for your lack of understanding have I?

You are correct - as a moderator I should have shown more self control.

That is one of the drawbacks of being a moderator, and at the same time one of the benefits.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to learn from my mistake.

I have removed the offending comments.

I genuinely apologize for my lack of discretion and compassion.

Edited March 20, 2012 by steve
This is all that is necessary to say

[flowing hands]

You are correct - as a moderator I should have shown more self control.

That is one of the drawbacks of being a moderator, and at the same time one of the benefits.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to learn from my mistake.

I have removed the offending comments.

I genuinely apologize for my lack of discretion and compassion.

 

Nice one! no problem! At some time I may try and put on some footage of me performing the 'flowing Hand' art and some Monkey Gods Tai Ji quan recorded some twenty years ago.

[thelerner]

You are correct - as a moderator I should have shown more self control.

That is one of the drawbacks of being a moderator, and at the same time one of the benefits.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to learn from my mistake.

I have removed the offending comments.

I genuinely apologize for my lack of discretion and compassion.

Quality.

 

And that's why you're a moderator.

[astralc]

Hello everybody,

 

I want to incorporate Tai Chi into my own practices, and I'm trying to find out if that's a good idea. So far my understanding is a little muddled, I never was into tai chi before.

 

So, as I understood, the purpose of it is to enter a special state of mind. I'm trying to find out whether it's something that I need or not. The teacher we have here said that you become empty by relaxing body and mind, and then you can enter that special state. He's a little hard to access to ask further questions for now, but I'm working on it.

 

From other sources as I understand them tai-chi is about:

- shut down your mind, learn to feel chi

- condense chi to convert it into jin

- now you can do "impossible" stuff

 

So what exactly is that special state he talked about? It's sort of the goal of it all, as I see it. Jin is just a nice addition, helpful for creating proof that what you do is actually working. However, I'm not exactly looking to send condensed chi to others in whatever form. My interests are more "meditationary", and I'm basically looking for something that can either enhance my meditation or simply give me some health benefits.

 

And so it sounds to me that tai chi does not provide for my interests that much, it doesn't go as far as something else would go, finding its ending in jin creation and manipulation. However, what exactly is that state that supposedly allows people to do all this stuff? Maybe it could be comlimentary if I understood a little better what it is and how it's different from others.

 

meow, can I ask what it is that you do? Is it chi gung or other taoist meditational practices? In answering your question it helps to know where you are coming from. Personally I learned tai chi to realise my spiritual goals, and it has done that and some, I incorporate chi gung, nie gung, walking, bagua, guitar, psychotherapy, aquaponics, gardening and all the other aspects of my life into achieving that goal.

 

What I am trying to say is that tai chi is only part of my journey, maybe for you, if you do find you enjoy it, then it would form part of your journey too. As to your comment:

From other sources as I understand them tai-chi is about:

- shut down your mind, learn to feel chi

- condense chi to convert it into jin

- now you can do "impossible" stuff

 

may I suggest that these apply to every taoist practice, not just tai chi. Maybe the person who told you this was just enthusiastic and excited and got a little carried away.

 

The actual feeling of tai chi for me is like slow soft swimming in honey, by incorporating the breathing techniques, dan tien breathing, reverse breathing etc. I will then feel heat in my belly and a rootedness at my feet, my hands will feel like they are radiating energy like lightening. Eventually I will feel like I am inside a ball of energy. So, although I don't use terms like those above, it sort of means the same. I hope this has been of help to you.

Edited April 25, 2012 by astralc

[Meow]

Astralc, thank you for caring and for relaying your own understanding.

 

I've already taken up tai chi, although I must say that I discovered a small flaw in practicing it. It's a flaw of convenience mostly, though, so it's really small. It takes too much space! So now I'm trying to practice at home after classes, and there's not enough room. There's a big room in my house, however, even that big room isn't big enough. I have to stop and backtrack quite a lot once some particular movements have to be done, which isn't very good for doing tai chi forms at all.

 

There's also a matter of pratice in the streets. It doesn't look normal at all, so as of now I do not do it. I heard that you can do tai chi with a fan or a stick, though, surely that would look more normal. Exotic enough for people not to think that you're insane.

[astralc]

Astralc, thank you for caring and for relaying your own understanding.

 

I've already taken up tai chi, although I must say that I discovered a small flaw in practicing it. It's a flaw of convenience mostly, though, so it's really small. It takes too much space! So now I'm trying to practice at home after classes, and there's not enough room. There's a big room in my house, however, even that big room isn't big enough. I have to stop and backtrack quite a lot once some particular movements have to be done, which isn't very good for doing tai chi forms at all.

 

There's also a matter of pratice in the streets. It doesn't look normal at all, so as of now I do not do it. I heard that you can do tai chi with a fan or a stick, though, surely that would look more normal. Exotic enough for people not to think that you're insane.

 

My pleasure, meow.

 

So glad you have started but space can be a problem, I am lucky because my style, chen style, is done in a small area, maybe 1 yard square, so I can do it in my lounge room between the wall and the coffee table, don't have to go outside in the cold

 

All the best and please keep us posted.

[dwai]

Astralc, thank you for caring and for relaying your own understanding.

 

I've already taken up tai chi, although I must say that I discovered a small flaw in practicing it. It's a flaw of convenience mostly, though, so it's really small. It takes too much space! So now I'm trying to practice at home after classes, and there's not enough room. There's a big room in my house, however, even that big room isn't big enough. I have to stop and backtrack quite a lot once some particular movements have to be done, which isn't very good for doing tai chi forms at all.

 

There's also a matter of pratice in the streets. It doesn't look normal at all, so as of now I do not do it. I heard that you can do tai chi with a fan or a stick, though, surely that would look more normal. Exotic enough for people not to think that you're insane.

I think its important to understand difference between taiji quan and the taiji state. We do things like taiji quan to et into taiji state (dynamic equillibrium of yin and yang).

 

I think astralc's eplanation is very apt. In this state there is complete awareness of the opposites. For condensation of the dt, there is also and expansion, imho. The yin in the center and yang outside....as we sink....the yang inside expanding and yin outside contracting simultaneously. Like a balloon expanding or contracting with contracting or expanding at the same time...

 

Dunno if that made sense...

 

As far as space is concerned...you can do your practice in as little as 4sq feet of area. Key is to lern each form individually...then you can peice them together. My teacher says its like learning the notes of the musical scale and then putting them together into various scales...

 

Two things my teacher taught to "make space with limited space" is to retain flow between form transitions and change door stepping. Eg you can do two golden rooster stands by changing door instead of stepping back...same with repulse monkey or other forms that move backward or forward in a north south direction...

Edited April 27, 2012 by dwai

[astralc]

Two things my teacher taught to "make space with limited space" is to retain flow between form transitions and change door stepping. Eg you can do two golden rooster stands by changing door instead of stepping back...same with repulse monkey or other forms that move backward or forward in a north south direction...

 

Like your teacher, my teacher always said that this style helps us to adapt to the limitations sometimes placed on us in life, I always liked that interpretation.

[Meow]

Dwai, you meant changing directions, didn't you? I'm not sure what to think of changing doors.

 

Great idea, though, I'm going to use it. There's enough room to make full repulse monkey sequence, but it's not enough. As it goes, you need about a meter more to execute some other forms, but it's going to work if some directions are changed, for sure.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Meow

[dwai]

Dwai, you meant changing directions, didn't you? I'm not sure what to think of changing doors.

 

Great idea, though, I'm going to use it. There's enough room to make full repulse monkey sequence, but it's not enough. As it goes, you need about a meter more to execute some other forms, but it's going to work if some directions are changed, for sure.

Well changing directions too...but change door is different. I tried to find some decent video online to demonstrate visually but they were no good...besides not many videos on this topic. Its very easy one learnt...but i struggled a bit to try and articulate what it entails...

 

Imagine you are stepping back in repulse monkey. Now instead of stepping back from your left foot forward to left foot behind, instead step back parallel to right foot and then step forward to your right foot. Basically it would mean you havent moved in distance but your stance reversed. Do same thing again for the next one so you change from right stance again to left stance. Then for each rep of your repulse monkey you do the same. You have now completed your four step back in repulse monkey with really moving back 4 times, though your stance has alternated.

 

Note that when tepping back parallel to the back foo, you would be widening your normal stance a bit so when you are back in bow and arrow, the width of your stance remains consistent...

 

Hope that made sense...

 

Its best to practice the stepping first for a while before you include your hands...

 

Also good to practice would be the five steps ( of 13 postures ie 8 energies and 5 steps fame ).

 

My teacher taught how we can turn in the long form in a short space by reversing direction...basically reversing the placement of the foot and pivoting around, 180degrees...but thats harder to describe. Think of turn around and kick with sole in the yang long form... ( eg the cmc 37 form)

 

May be one of bums has a good video demonstrating these stepping techniques....

Edited April 29, 2012 by dwai

[ChiDragon]

Please comment...

 

[astralc]

Please comment...

 

 

beautiful, nice dan tien in your flow - strong centre

[Meow]

Imagine you are stepping back in repulse monkey. Now instead of stepping back from your left foot forward to left foot behind, instead step back parallel to right foot and then step forward to your right foot. Basically it would mean you havent moved in distance but your stance reversed. Do same thing again for the next one so you change from right stance again to left stance. Then for each rep of your repulse monkey you do the same. You have now completed your four step back in repulse monkey with really moving back 4 times, though your stance has alternated.

Sorry I don't really get it. Ok, I can step back but normally I don't step forward during that form. You say step back parallel to the right foot and then step forward, in that case the form takes more time to execute, right?

 

Even a bad video of it would do, I'd be glad to see any!

[astralc]

Sorry I don't really get it. Ok, I can step back but normally I don't step forward during that form. You say step back parallel to the right foot and then step forward, in that case the form takes more time to execute, right?

 

Even a bad video of it would do, I'd be glad to see any!

 

maybe dwai could do a short video of himself demonstrating the move and put it on Youtube?

[dwai]

Sorry I don't really get it. Ok, I can step back but normally I don't step forward during that form. You say step back parallel to the right foot and then step forward, in that case the form takes more time to execute, right?

 

Even a bad video of it would do, I'd be glad to see any!

 

 

 

The difference between what I've been taught and what's in this video is in the spacing (width) between the two feet. Our forms (Temple Style Tai chi) have at least a shoulder's width width in the stance (i.e. horizontally between two feet) and through all the movements (as this gentleman shows in the yang style stepping). Although I think he's just breaking the stepping down by bringing his insubstantial foot closer to the substantial foot before stepping forward or backward (we on the other hand slide the entire sole of the insubstantial foot along the ground in an arc as we step, not lifting it off the ground at all). But pay attention to where he mentions change door...that is the kind of side-stepping I was referring to.

 

I do not have permission to teach so I cannot post videos etc (besides I don't really know the details of editing videos, etc anyway)...

Edited April 29, 2012 by dwai

[dwai]

Please comment...

 

 

Hi ChiDragon,

 

The person doing the form seems to hold tension in the left shoulder. I could be be mistaken of course (could be mistaken if the shirt is making it seem that way)...the shoulders don't seem "Dropped"...and if they aren't, the whole frame will start to tighten.

 

Then of course, I could be completely wrong.

[ChiDragon]

Hi ChiDragon,

 

The person doing the form seems to hold tension in the left shoulder. I could be be mistaken of course (could be mistaken if the shirt is making it seem that way)...the shoulders don't seem "Dropped"...and if they aren't, the whole frame will start to tighten.

 

Then of course, I could be completely wrong.

 

dwai...

Thank you. I am just curious to know for purpose of dropping the shoulders...??? May I hear your valuable opinion....???