Estimating Tai Chi

[dwai]

dwai...

Thank you. I am just curious to know for purpose of dropping the shoulders...??? May I hear your valuable opinion....???

 

Hi ChiDragon,

 

Dropping the shoulders and elbows are as I've been taught, essential to relaxing the frame. The shoulders and elbows dropped, the ankles relaxed...with the tailbone tucked...crown point lifted...kua relaxed...birds nest open...essential for tai chi and chi gong...

 

Holding tension in the shoulders will block chi flow as the frame itself will not be able to relax...the muscles in the shoulder and neck will be tensed...following which the hips will be tensed...following which the knee will be tensed...the ankle will be tensed.

[ChiDragon]

Hi ChiDragon,

 

The person doing the form seems to hold tension in the left shoulder. I could be be mistaken of course (could be mistaken if the shirt is making it seem that way)...the shoulders don't seem "Dropped"...and if they aren't, the whole frame will start to tighten.

 

Then of course, I could be completely wrong.

 

ahhhh.......

I see what you are saying now. Well, if the left shoulder wasn't dropped, then the left hand cannot be moved as freely and gracefully. The left shoulder of the person is higher than other which gives an illusion that his left shoulder was not dropped....

Edited April 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Meow]

I'm so dumb about physical movement that I can't understand how to apply the "change door" in the video to forms that I'm doing The sequence is broken if I try, and there's an unnecessary movement. Maybe it's ok, or maybe this way it's totally wrong.

 

If dwai can't demonstrate it then maybe somebody else can, for example how to avoid going back during repulse monkey? Applying it to such a basic sequence should be simple enough for people like me to understand

Edited April 30, 2012 by Meow

[ChiDragon]

I'm so dumb about physical movement that I can't understand how to apply the "change door" in the video to forms that I'm doing The sequence is broken if I try, and there's an unnecessary movement. Maybe it's ok, or maybe this way it's totally wrong.

 

If dwai can't demonstrate it then maybe somebody else can, for example how to avoid going back during repulse monkey? Applying it to such a basic sequence should be simple enough for people like me to understand

 

The Tai Ji movements have to be one smooth flow. Stopping in the middle seems to be loosing its elegance.

 

If it says "repulse", then it has to be moved back. Otherwise, it will loose the repulsive effect. If the space is a limited factor, I would at least take one step back, instead of three steps or half, and then move forward again to repeat the previous movement. Again, repeat the one step back to do the repulsive monkey.

Edited April 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

I'm so dumb about physical movement that I can't understand how to apply the "change door" in the video to forms that I'm doing The sequence is broken if I try, and there's an unnecessary movement. Maybe it's ok, or maybe this way it's totally wrong.

 

If dwai can't demonstrate it then maybe somebody else can, for example how to avoid going back during repulse monkey? Applying it to such a basic sequence should be simple enough for people like me to understand

 

You need a teacher who can observe you and correct you.

[dwai]

I'm so dumb about physical movement that I can't understand how to apply the "change door" in the video to forms that I'm doing The sequence is broken if I try, and there's an unnecessary movement. Maybe it's ok, or maybe this way it's totally wrong.

 

If dwai can't demonstrate it then maybe somebody else can, for example how to avoid going back during repulse monkey? Applying it to such a basic sequence should be simple enough for people like me to understand

 

Don't be so hard on yourself. If you are just starting out with tai chi, it will take time for the physical form to feel comfortable.

 

 

You could try doing just bow and arrow and change stance with the change door stepping first. Don't try and rush into doing the full form without getting the footwork correct. Once you got the footwork down properly, then you can focus on the hands and then tie the form transitions together. You could try "hands attaching" with change door stepping (in bow and arrow)...

 

And as MythMaker suggested, best would be to find a teacher who can observe and correct your forms, alignment etc.

 

In the style of tai chi I learn, the focus is mainly on single-form practice (i.e. repetitions of upward downward, inward outward, raised hands, tai chi stance, brush knee twist step, repulse monkey, wardoff, rollback, press, push, split, single whip etc) and we always use change door to switch sides (i.e. right to left and vice versa).

 

So, when we piece the long form together, we can do both left and right sides smoothly and not have to think about transitions too much.

 

I'd recommend getting a few of these DVDs if you want to learn how to do this (next best to finding a teacher of the system) --

 

https://taichitaocen...uct_detail&p=49

 

This one covers 5 style steps, attaching steps, etc --

 

 

https://taichitaocenter.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=59

 

 

I know it's a bit pricey, but each DVD is well worth it's price. Especially for beginners who haven't had much background in structured tai chi training.

 

DISCLAIMER -- Although I am a student of the system, I don't have any ulterior motivation to promote these DVDs. I am recommending these based on personal experience (of having purchased several of the DVDs myself) and with the best intentions in mind. I haven't found material like this readily available anywhere besides through Master Liao's school...

Edited May 1, 2012 by dwai

[mYTHmAKER]

Don't be so hard on yourself. If you are just starting out with tai chi, it will take time for the physical form to feel comfortable.

 

 

You could try doing just bow and arrow and change stance with the change door stepping first. Don't try and rush into doing the full form without getting the footwork correct. Once you got the footwork down properly, then you can focus on the hands and then tie the form transitions together. You could try "hands attaching" with change door stepping (in bow and arrow)...

 

And as MythMaker suggested, best would be to find a teacher who can observe and correct your forms, alignment etc.

 

In the style of tai chi I learn, the focus is mainly on single-form practice (i.e. repetitions of upward downward, inward outward, raised hands, tai chi stance, brush knee twist step, repulse monkey, wardoff, rollback, press, push, split, single whip etc) and we always use change door to switch sides (i.e. right to left and vice versa).

 

So, when we piece the long form together, we can do both left and right sides smoothly and not have to think about transitions too much.

 

I'd recommend getting a few of these DVDs if you want to learn how to do this (next best to finding a teacher of the system) --

 

https://taichitaocen...uct_detail&p=49

 

This one covers 5 style steps, attaching steps, etc --

 

 

https://taichitaocen...uct_detail&p=59

 

 

I know it's a bit pricey, but each DVD is well worth it's price. Especially for beginners who haven't had much background in structured tai chi training.

 

DISCLAIMER -- Although I am a student of the system, I don't have any ulterior motivation to promote these DVDs. I am recommending these based on personal experience (of having purchased several of the DVDs myself) and with the best intentions in mind. I haven't found material like this readily available anywhere besides through Master Liao's school...

 

One has to be very aware of their body in order to learn from a DVD

[dwai]

One has to be very aware of their body in order to learn from a DVD

 

The great thing about Master Liao's DVDs is that he is thorough about explaining postures and alignments. Most other DVDs I've seen (except perhaps Paul Lam's Yang style DVDs) just go through the long form without breaking down the posture, alignment etc. I think Master Liao's DVDs are great for beginners as well as advanced practitioners because there is great beginner-level material but for folks who have been practicing his style for a long time too, there are alignment details etc that have been forgotten or ignored that get highlighted...

 

But you are absolutely right, there is no substitute for learning from a good, experienced teacher. I remember how I learn the Yang 24-forms from DVD and then when I went to learn from my teacher, it was obvious within a few classes that I was not doing a lot of stuff correctly.

 

The other big thing is to find a teacher who will break down tai chi into the basics. What is preparation form? What is suspending from crown point, what good alignments are, what the 8 energies are, what the 5 directions are, etc.

 

Not that one could not learn the long-form and then read these things, but to learn these things as one is learning the forms is invaluable, imho.

[mYTHmAKER]

The great thing about Master Liao's DVDs is that he is thorough about explaining postures and alignments. Most other DVDs I've seen (except perhaps Paul Lam's Yang style DVDs) just go through the long form without breaking down the posture, alignment etc. I think Master Liao's DVDs are great for beginners as well as advanced practitioners because there is great beginner-level material but for folks who have been practicing his style for a long time too, there are alignment details etc that have been forgotten or ignored that get highlighted...

 

But you are absolutely right, there is no substitute for learning from a good, experienced teacher. I remember how I learn the Yang 24-forms from DVD and then when I went to learn from my teacher, it was obvious within a few classes that I was not doing a lot of stuff correctly.

 

The other big thing is to find a teacher who will break down tai chi into the basics. What is preparation form? What is suspending from crown point, what good alignments are, what the 8 energies are, what the 5 directions are, etc.

 

Not that one could not learn the long-form and then read these things, but to learn these things as one is learning the forms is invaluable, imho.

 

I'm sure Master Liao's DVDs are good as you say. However, if one has no body awareness ......

Can most people tell if they are hiking their shoulders, if their torso is tilted or twisted, if they

are extending their knees beyond their toes, if they are holding tension in any part of their body,

if they are actually doing as instructed? Nay I say

[astralc]

ahhhh.......

I see what you are saying now. Well, if the left shoulder wasn't dropped, then the left hand cannot be moved as freely and gracefully. The left shoulder of the person is higher than other which gives an illusion that his left shoulder was not dropped....

 

I know this may sound odd but when I watch someone doing tai chi I feel for their dan tien, if they are centred it doesn't matter what their body is doing, though I do agree good posture is important, but sometimes the chi moves the body in ways which may be counter what we consider as the 'best' posture.

[astralc]

I'm so dumb about physical movement that I can't understand how to apply the "change door" in the video to forms that I'm doing The sequence is broken if I try, and there's an unnecessary movement. Maybe it's ok, or maybe this way it's totally wrong.

 

If dwai can't demonstrate it then maybe somebody else can, for example how to avoid going back during repulse monkey? Applying it to such a basic sequence should be simple enough for people like me to understand

 

meow, a simple answer is to just talk to your teacher at your next lesson and tell him/her that you have limited space and what do they suggest.

[Meow]

I'm going to talk to him but he's not easily talked to. I didn't want to mention that, thinking that in this case everybody will consider the problem solved and won't try to explain anything My sixth sense says that talking to him won't work out, but let's hope that it's wrong.

 

And the truth is, I didn't get into this group from the very beginning, so I had to learn everything very quickly (they're two-thirds done) from another person who goes there. After all forms are learnt the teacher plans to start explaining each one in more detail, so I decided it should be ok even if I learn them like that.

 

If it says "repulse", then it has to be moved back. Otherwise, it will loose the repulsive effect. If the space is a limited factor, I would at least take one step back, instead of three steps or half, and then move forward again to repeat the previous movement. Again, repeat the one step back to do the repulsive monkey.

With an additional step forward, should the whole form take more time than normal, or would stepping back be half as long instead?

[ChiDragon]

 

With an additional step forward, should the whole form take more time than normal, or would stepping back be half as long instead?

 

For Tai Ji beginners, the speed in timing is not a major factor. It is the slower the better. At higher level, the movements will be controlled by your mind and body as your natural reflex. Your moves will be very quick and accurate before you know it.

 

It is better to go through all the forms, as a beginner, with no short cut in a spacious area. Otherwise, the muscles and body coordination will not be developed as intended by the Tai Ji movements.

Edited May 1, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

I'm going to talk to him but he's not easily talked to. I didn't want to mention that, thinking that in this case everybody will consider the problem solved and won't try to explain anything My sixth sense says that talking to him won't work out, but let's hope that it's wrong.

 

And the truth is, I didn't get into this group from the very beginning, so I had to learn everything very quickly (they're two-thirds done) from another person who goes there. After all forms are learnt the teacher plans to start explaining each one in more detail, so I decided it should be ok even if I learn them like that.

 

 

With an additional step forward, should the whole form take more time than normal, or would stepping back be half as long instead?

What style are you learning? How many forms in the long form?

[ChiDragon]

Meow...

Since you had mention the "repulse monkey", let's talk about why it should be no shortcut.

 

The movements begin by moving the right hand toward the front, while lifting the left leg and move to the back.

 

What is the significance of lifting up the left leg and moving toward the back....??? Well, there are quite a few things happening:

1. You let the body carry the weight of the left leg.

2. The weight of the body was shifted to the right leg. The muscles on this leg will generate the energy to support the extra weight than normal.

 

3. While moving the left leg toward the back, it controls the duration of the right leg to hold the body weight.

4. While all the body weight are shifted to the right leg, your body will be off balanced. Unconsciously, you will try to balance yourself by shifting your body weight to the right spontaneously.

 

5. As long the left leg is in the air, it will be how much time it took for you to maintain your balance.

 

By saying all that, by now, one should be realized why that extra step was necessary to take to move back doing the "repulse monkey". Another words, no shortcuts. Step 4 was the significant purpose of the "repulse monkey".

Edited May 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The Cloud Hand and Repulse Monkey

 

[dwai]

Meow...

Since you had mention the "repulse monkey", let's talk about why it should be no shortcut.

 

The movements begin by moving the right hand toward the front, while lifting the left leg and move to the back.

 

What is the significance of lifting up the left leg and moving toward the back....??? Well, there are quiet a few things happening:

1. You let the body carry the weight of the left leg.

2. The weight of the body was shifted to the right leg. The muscles on this leg will generate the energy to support the extra weight than normal.

 

3. While moving the left leg toward the back, it controls the duration of the right leg to hold the body weight.

4. While all the body weight are shifted to the right leg, your body will be off balanced. Unconsciously, you will try to balance yourself by shifting your body weight to the right spontaneously.

 

5. As long the left leg is in the air, it will be how much time it took for you to maintain your balance.

 

By saying all that, by now, one should be realized why that extra step was necessary to take to move back doing the "repulse monkey". Another words, no shortcuts. Step 4 was the significant purpose of the "repulse monkey".

 

Repulse monkey is a split form and it can be performed in any way. We (in my class) practice it moving, standing stationary, changing doors, etc etc. The main thing is to get the energy flow and the split, imho.

 

But for beginners, it's probably best to do it as prescribed in the routine. You do four wave hands like clouds and then return with 4 repulse monkeys to recover the distance moved with the cloud hands and return to the vicinity of the original position.

 

Another option with limited space is to do two cloud hands and two repulse monkeys instead...

 

 

[ChiDragon]

Balance and Kicking

[Meow]

What style are you learning? How many forms in the long form?

The Yang style, 24.

 

ChiDragon, thank you.