Healing Tao standing chi kung

[sea-dog]

Hello all,

 

I have been working through fusion of the five elements and have been going back to Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt and Bone Marrow books.

I have been getting some headaches during the packing process so I have stopped that for now.

 

My question is specifically for those experienced in the Healing Tao tradition.

My understanding is that the standing itself establishes rooting, connection to earth energy and most health benefits and that the chi packing is not completely necessary; and apparently using too much tension is common.

 

SO my question (finally) is what do you think about just doing the iron shirt postures, primarily with basic qigong breathing as described in Bruce Frantzis's books and maybe a just a little gentle iron shirt packing and bone marrow breathing when it feels appropriate?

[ChiDragon]

Why are you treating these styles like a jig puzzle.....??? You either practice one at a time or don't do them at all.

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Hello all,

 

I have been working through fusion of the five elements and have been going back to Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt and Bone Marrow books.

I have been getting some headaches during the packing process so I have stopped that for now.

 

My question is specifically for those experienced in the Healing Tao tradition.

My understanding is that the standing itself establishes rooting, connection to earth energy and most health benefits and that the chi packing is not completely necessary; and apparently using too much tension is common.

 

SO my question (finally) is what do you think about just doing the iron shirt postures, primarily with basic qigong breathing as described in Bruce Frantzis's books and maybe a just a little gentle iron shirt packing and bone marrow breathing when it feels appropriate?

 

 

Fusion of the Five Elements is the foundational work, whereas Iron Shirt and Bone Marrow are more advanced. So are you advanced enough to be doing those practices ?

 

Certainly, packing can be quite dangerous, and there are horror stories of people doing it wrongly and getting into serious difficulties.

 

Many Iron Shirt stances are standard ZZ stances. So maybe you could look at that ?

 

Also, whats the purpose of your Iron Shirt practice ? It does create a lot of tension and inflexibility in the body. If you have a purpose for it, thats great, but otherwise, it seems pointless. Bone marrow is good, but again, its an advanced practice. You need to have a good grounding in energy work, which you may have, so I don't mean to insult you. But are you ready for Bone Marrrow ?

 

Chia's system is good, but its not perfect and not without some problems.

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Why are you treating these styles like a jig puzzle.....??? You either practice one at a time or don't do them at all.

 

Good advice !

[sea-dog]

Thank you for your response.

 

Since I am new to the forum and unfamiliar with you, your background and your posting style I'm not sure if you are actually asking why I'm "treating these styles like jigsaw pieces," (I'm not) or if you are just making a rhetorical point.

I also am not clear if you are a practitioner of the Healing Tao system who has come to this conclusion, or if this is your general opinion. I respect your opinion either way, I just don't know how much credence to give it for my own decision.

[sea-dog]

Jeramiah Zeitigeist,

 

Thank you for your response as well. We cross posted, my above post was to Chi Dragon.

 

It's interesting that you say Iron Shirt and Bone Marrow Nei Kung are more advanced than Fusion.

I'm not sure that I disagree, but in the Healing Tao system they are both generally taught before Fusion.

 

I learned them along time ago, and had moderate success. I have holding the postures and circulating earth energy, as described in a few of Chia's books and in an article by Michael Winn and that has seemed enough, but I started the packing because I wanted to make sure I had a strong enough foundation.

 

It appears that at least several Healing Tao senior instructors (like Michael WInn for example) don't do that packing as described and others (like Eric Yudelove) make a point of teaching quiet meditations in the postures in addition to the packing and bone breathing process.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Why are you treating these styles like a jig puzzle.....??? You either practice one at a time or don't do them at all.

 

 

Good advice !

 

This is sound advice. But if you are aware of amendments made by Winn or Yudelove and find those preferable then go for it!

 

I know Winn has found some of Bruce's methods beneficial and adopted them himself in what he teaches. Though it appears he doesn't understand them as Bruce teaches them and has adapted them for the needs of the system he teaches, which is fairly typical.

 

A cursory look shows me adopting Bruce's whole body breathing as an alternative has become quite common. I wonder why?

 

One of my teachers has explained that the whole idea of "packing" qi is erroneous, because the translation of the Chinese into English gives a false impression. In Chinese the term has the connotation of creating more space to allow more to fill in. In English 'packing' has the connotation of squeezing and pushing more and more in to something. Quite different.

 

Ponder the implications of that. And bear in mind that even in China these days there are many doing these practices incorrectly too. I have been taught some quite bad Yijinjing by Chinese teachers thinking it is all about extremes of tension!! But I digress.

 

I would do your best to stick within the paradigm of your system and follow what those far more experienced within that system are doing, based on their experience. Which is what you appear to be doing. Winn and Yudelove made important changes to these methods to make them better and safer, it is worth listening to them.

 

When people start having to write things like "That's the way I learned it from Master Chia in the early eighties, when the practices were more simple and straightforward, before Master Chia started "improving" the practices." JMS

 

And,

 

"Everyone who has studied with Master Chia knows that the packing practices in Iron Shirt have not been actively taught for quite a few years." JM

 

I wonder why?...

 

"Then one day after practice, I noticed a mass of little red dots spread all over my chest. The blood vessels were beginning to pop. That shook me up. I stopped all packing immediately. But the red dots didn't disappear, and six years later many of the blood spots remain, grim reminders of youthful excess." MW

 

Oh, thats why!!

 

Here are some relevant pages that may help, you may have already seen them? But hopefully for others reading this who haven't they'll be helpful.

 

http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/IS1Intro.htm

 

http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/IS1GentlerResources.htm

 

http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/IS1WinnGentleEasyWay.htm

 

http://alchemicaltaoism.com/

 

Best,

[Cheshire Cat]

Hi Seadog,

 

the two practices described are very powerfull and have a great healing effect.

Your ideas are good in y opinion.

 

What people usually ignores is that a student is supposed to master the iron shirt standing position in complete relaxation for at least one hour, before attempting the forced breathing.

At that point, you are able to release all possible tension that the forced breathing may cause to you and avoid all possible ills effects.

 

A good choice would be to start to visualize your skeleton in iron shirt posture. This will help greatly the process of relaxation and make the exercises for bone marrow much more effective.

 

 

Hello all,

 

I have been working through fusion of the five elements and have been going back to Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt and Bone Marrow books.

I have been getting some headaches during the packing process so I have stopped that for now.

 

My question is specifically for those experienced in the Healing Tao tradition.

My understanding is that the standing itself establishes rooting, connection to earth energy and most health benefits and that the chi packing is not completely necessary; and apparently using too much tension is common.

 

SO my question (finally) is what do you think about just doing the iron shirt postures, primarily with basic qigong breathing as described in Bruce Frantzis's books and maybe a just a little gentle iron shirt packing and bone marrow breathing when it feels appropriate?

Edited March 26, 2012 by DAO rain TAO

[sea-dog]

Thank you Snowmonki and Dao rain Tao.

 

Dao rain Tao, I did not know about being able to stand fro an hour (which I cannot do yet) before doing packing.

That's not how Chia teaches it, is that the way it was originally taught and/or still taught by others? I think that makes a lot of sense.

 

What I've been doing the last couple days is getting in the posture and smiling to my tan tiens.

Then scanning down my body and relaxing completely and doing 10-30 slow qigong breathes into the lower tan tien.

After this I do the packing breath as taught by Chia, making sure to be completely relaxed.

If I feel any tension at any point I stop and rlease it and I don't hold my breath beyond my comfort level.

At various stages through out I do bone breathing (just bone breathing, very gentle, no bone marrow packing right now).

I finish up with gently running the earth energy through the orbit 9-18 times (which is usually as long as I can stand).

 

So far I think this is working out well, I think I will put even more focus on the just standing for now, and I will work on seeing/feeling the body as a skeleton. This has been happening already a bit the more I do bone breathing and I do think it will help.

 

I really do appreciate your answers a lot.

Thank You.

[Cheshire Cat]

Dao rain Tao, I did not know about being able to stand fro an hour (which I cannot do yet) before doing packing.

That's not how Chia teaches it, is that the way it was originally taught and/or still taught by others? I think that makes a lot of sense.

 

Iron shirt was supposed to be the "advanced aspect" of basic zhang zhuan.

If you keep the standing position in emptiness for long enough, you will have all the benefits in terms of chi channels purification and healing that the most advanced meditation can provide.

 

In facts, people who engage zhang zhuan end in loving it a lot!

 

When you acquire a certain proficency in basic standing, you will go trough process of chi mai purification such as trembling, hot sensations, bad smell and so on.

If you want to speed this process, you can add breathing tecnhiques, but if you cannot hold the position for long time, this will not work correctly because you need a little degree of preliminary purification.

 

Originally Chia teaches very carefully the standing postures stressing the need to master the position for long time, but for marketing routines he had to teach basic and advanced in a single seminar.

People usually prefers being involved in advanced practices and miss the basis,then get problems and write articles online about how dangerous a practice can be.

 

Even teachers who don't get physichal problems tend to miss the necessary emphasys on the foundation.

 

You will have tremendous benefits in mastering the basic standing for long time and the breathing exercise will just add value to an extremely effective technique.

[idquest]

Iron shirt was supposed to be the "advanced aspect" of basic zhang zhuan.

If you keep the standing position in emptiness for long enough, you will have all the benefits in terms of chi channels purification and healing that the most advanced meditation can provide.

 

In facts, people who engage zhang zhuan end in loving it a lot!

 

When you acquire a certain proficency in basic standing, you will go trough process of chi mai purification such as trembling, hot sensations, bad smell and so on.

If you want to speed this process, you can add breathing tecnhiques, but if you cannot hold the position for long time, this will not work correctly because you need a little degree of preliminary purification.

 

Originally Chia teaches very carefully the standing postures stressing the need to master the position for long time, but for marketing routines he had to teach basic and advanced in a single seminar.

People usually prefers being involved in advanced practices and miss the basis,then get problems and write articles online about how dangerous a practice can be.

 

Even teachers who don't get physichal problems tend to miss the necessary emphasys on the foundation.

 

You will have tremendous benefits in mastering the basic standing for long time and the breathing exercise will just add value to an extremely effective technique.

Thanks for this good outline for standing practice.

 

Dao rain Tao, would you agree with the interpretation of 'packing breathing technique' that another Taobum member, Snowmonki, has suggested? Namely, that packing is meant to be not forced compression in certain areas of a body but rather expansion of those areas?

 

When I practice ZZ I experience expansion; but it happens by itself, without me forcing it. Sometimes I use expansion imagenary as a dissolving/relaxation technique though.

[sea-dog]

This is fabulous, thank you so much.

This has actually really helped my understanding of the whole process and filled in some aspects that I was unclear about.

 

Since I already do the breathing I think I will probably still do a little at the end, but I will focus even more on just standing quietly, breathing and visualizing my skeleton.

 

 

Thank you again.

 

EDIT:

Actually, based on this thread and the standing I just did (15 min., I have a long way to go) I may just cut the packing out completely.

I smiled, relaxed and did qigong breathing only and felt better afterwards than I usually do. I definitely think I need to take the time, put in the work and get to the core of the practice.

Edited March 28, 2012 by sea-dog

[寒月 Hanyue]

Iron shirt was supposed to be the "advanced aspect" of basic zhang zhuan.

 

Originally Chia teaches very carefully the standing postures stressing the need to master the position for long time, but for marketing routines he had to teach basic and advanced in a single seminar.

 

People usually prefers being involved in advanced practices and miss the basis,then get problems and write articles online about how dangerous a practice can be.

 

Even teachers who don't get physichal problems tend to miss the necessary emphasys on the foundation.

 

Well said.

 

It has to be mentioned that it is not just Chia and his method that falls foul of the above.

 

The student should NEVER give up their common sense or hand SOLE RESPONSIBILITY to the teacher, regardless of their 'reputation' or apparent 'achievements'. Instead they should be diligent in listening and abosorbing what is being taught, learning to read between the lines.

 

Best,

Edited March 28, 2012 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

Namely, that packing is meant to be not forced compression in certain areas of a body but rather expansion of those areas?

 

Sorry for the confusion but that is not what I said. I am NOT talking of expansion over compression.

 

What I will say though, is that there is a very real difference in training the internal organs and other tissues in returning to a balanced, harmonious, and say optimal 'pressure' that enables them to function efficiently and well. And taking that foundation and training it beyond that for martial reasons. I am also saying, as DRT has I believe hinted at, that trying to do the latter without a nod to the former is why people run in to trouble.

 

It can be hard to learn where you really are NOW, when everyone is trying to tell you where you should be. Leaping after the goal is called 'end gaming', some short cuts aren't worth it IMO. But thats me.

 

Best,

[Cheshire Cat]

Thanks snowmonki

 

What I consider to be the most relevant thing when talking about ZZ, is the tremendous help that it gives in arising the Yang Qi.

This Qi is not the "wind Qi" targeted in usual qigong exercise, but it is a form of energy that becomes hot because it cleans the obstructions in the Qi channels making you healtier. It causes a sort of friction with the impurities of ying qi in the body.

 

This yang Qi arises from stillness of the mind in sitting meditation also, but ZZ makes it stronger even if the mind is not completely empty (for example if one concentrates on relaxing, etc...).

 

Iron shirt is a mean to combine the effects of yang Qi (which cleans the channels and create free flow of internal qi) and the "wind qi" that is stored in the fascia exclusively for martial purpose.

There is not a definite line that say standing-> yang qi and breathing->wind qi because while holding the breath (similar to the state of hsi embrionyc breathing), yang qi start to rise for example.

 

In my opinion, the "packing" is a sort of compression: wind qi stored in the fascie opened by yang qi.

But I'm not a Qigong master: this is a student's opinion.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Intersting stuff, thanks for sharing Dao rain Tao.

 

All the best,

[Fire Dragon]

Thanks snowmonki

 

What I consider to be the most relevant thing when talking about ZZ, is the tremendous help that it gives in arising the Yang Qi.

This Qi is not the "wind Qi" targeted in usual qigong exercise, but it is a form of energy that becomes hot because it cleans the obstructions in the Qi channels making you healtier. It causes a sort of friction with the impurities of ying qi in the body.

 

This yang Qi arises from stillness of the mind in sitting meditation also, but ZZ makes it stronger even if the mind is not completely empty (for example if one concentrates on relaxing, etc...).

 

Iron shirt is a mean to combine the effects of yang Qi (which cleans the channels and create free flow of internal qi) and the "wind qi" that is stored in the fascia exclusively for martial purpose.

There is not a definite line that say standing-> yang qi and breathing->wind qi because while holding the breath (similar to the state of hsi embrionyc breathing), yang qi start to rise for example.

 

In my opinion, the "packing" is a sort of compression: wind qi stored in the fascie opened by yang qi.

But I'm not a Qigong master: this is a student's opinion.

 

Hello I find your ideas about yang Qi and wind qi interesting. Do you have any sources to this? Is it something mantak Chia has written about or anybody else?

 

I practise in the universal tao system.

 

Fire Dragon

[Cheshire Cat]

Hello I find your ideas about yang Qi and wind qi interesting. Do you have any sources to this? Is it something mantak Chia has written about or anybody else?

 

I practise in the universal tao system.

 

Fire Dragon

 

Hi

Theories about yang qi, wind qi and this sort of things are common in taoist literature and teachings.

 

I think that Healing Tao is much more qigong-like than taoist alchemy-style and my ideas are quite unpopular because of the famous formulas.

For example, Chia never talk about this kundalini-like "yang qi" while he probabily experienced it.

He want to be as more accessible as possibile and a qigong-like approach is good for this purpose.

But Taoism is much more.

 

The qi process in ironshirt is how I interpret certain phenomena.

 

For more information about taoist school and accurate information about Qi, I strongly suggest to look at the works of Master Nan Huai-Chin and William Bodri.

Highly recommended

 

meditation expert

[Fire Dragon]

Hi

Theories about yang qi, wind qi and this sort of things are common in taoist literature and teachings.

 

I think that Healing Tao is much more qigong-like than taoist alchemy-style and my ideas are quite unpopular because of the famous formulas.

For example, Chia never talk about this kundalini-like "yang qi" while he probabily experienced it.

He want to be as more accessible as possibile and a qigong-like approach is good for this purpose.

But Taoism is much more.

 

The qi process in ironshirt is how I interpret certain phenomena.

 

For more information about taoist school and accurate information about Qi, I strongly suggest to look at the works of Master Nan Huai-Chin and William Bodri.

Highly recommended

 

 

 

Thanks

FD

 

meditation expert

[sea-dog]

Ah,

 

I had missed the recommendation of William Bodri and the link provided.

DRT, I thank you so much for your posts on this thread. I certainly am a beginner (at least and especially in regards to Chinese and Taoist practices) and at the same time after reading this: http://www.meditationexpert.com/bestandworst.html I have very little interest in reading anything by William Bodri or Nan Huai-Chin.

 

Perhaps when/if I am enlightened I will then feel qualified to pass judgement on all forms of meditation and cultivation and their objective validity, but until that I time I not only don't feel qualified I don't believe that anyone else is qualified either (whether they are certified enlightened or not).

 

I should say that I'm sure William Bodri and Nan Huai-Chin have some great books, and maybe I will read them sometime, but the nature of this book left a bad taste in my mouth.

It reminds me of martial arts. I have had one instructor tell me that if I am attacked by a knife to never, under any circumstance, grab the attackers arm; an another instructor tell me to always immediately grab the attackers arm if they are attacking with a knife. The interesting thing is that both instructors have been attacked by people with knives and used their theories effectively. Maybe the one true way is not so clear cut.

[Cheshire Cat]

I consider their work as a great contribute to the field of meditation today.

Master Nan is known as an enlightened master of Zen, Vajrayana buddhism and taoism...

he is not the average guy who say "my practice is the best, you practice is the worst", but his view makes a lot of sense.

He speak as a practitioner and as a master, not as an external observant who judges without knowing what he is talking about.

 

Of course, certain claims appear quite exaggerate but I've found a profound insight

into the matter and a lot of explanations.

 

It reminds me of martial arts. I have had one instructor tell me that if I am attacked by a knife to never, under any circumstance, grab the attackers arm; an another instructor tell me to always immediately grab the attackers arm if they are attacking with a knife. The interesting thing is that both instructors have been attacked by people with knives and used their theories effectively. Maybe the one true way is not so clear cut.

 

I completely agree.

Thanks for sharing

[sea-dog]

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it and I think I was a bit hasty.

There is still kind of a lot in the descriptions of the books that I strongly disagree with, but the fact is that the teachers in all areas that I respect highly usually have several ideas, beliefs or opinions that I disagree with and that doesn't take away from the quality of the teachings that they offer.

I think the presentation of judgements coupled with the Dan kennedy style sales letter just basically didn't work for me.

 

Wo knows though, I saw the white skeleton and it looks interesting (it actually strongly reminds me of a tarot meditation I know, but I like that this is somatically based) and maybe I will buy the "measuring meditation" book someday. The idea of judging the level of saints based on some checklist really makes me crack up, but again I'm sure that the teachings would be useful on a personal level (again, I'll reserve 'objectively' judging the level of saints at least until I reach said level or higher, for now I'll stick with figuring out what is most usfeul to me on my path :-) ).

 

 

EDIT: Actually if I had the cash and they were available I might get these http://www.meditationexpert.com/alchemy-fugiens-tapes.htm just to see how they did with it.

I do not accept that being a master of one (or three) traditions give you automatic understanding of all other systems (if that was the case we wouldn't have so many western experts screwing up eastern teachings), and don't accept that western alchemy was "really" just an internal process (it was internal and external, I'm a fan of Mark Stavish's book) but I've always thought one could probably effectively internalize the western process in the same way the Taoists internalized the originally external process.

...still I have enough to keep me busy for quite a while now, so I'm not disappointed I can't get them.

Edited April 6, 2012 by sea-dog

[Cheshire Cat]

I will say nothing more because I'm not a bookseller or promoter of any sort.

Just give my positive feedback on the materials with the limits of my understanding.

 

Master Nan is a Zen Buddhist and when he talks about buddhism, his insights are profound

and his explanation very useful for everyone.

When he talks about taoism, his explanation are also of the highest accuracy. He wrote a book

on the history of taoism which clarified to me a lot of things about the matter.

 

Bodri creates links between various traditions in a brilliant way. He gives a lot of examples

and he never pose any dogmatic judgment.

 

I think that his books are very useful because I read them.

If you think that they are not, there's no problems or things to fix. Just different views.

 

 

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it and I think I was a bit hasty.

There is still kind of a lot in the descriptions of the books that I strongly disagree with, but the fact is that the teachers in all areas that I respect highly usually have several ideas, beliefs or opinions that I disagree with and that doesn't take away from the quality of the teachings that they offer.

I think the presentation of judgements coupled with the Dan kennedy style sales letter just basically didn't work for me.

 

Wo knows though, I saw the white skeleton and it looks interesting (it actually strongly reminds me of a tarot meditation I know, but I like that this is somatically based) and maybe I will buy the "measuring meditation" book someday. The idea of judging the level of saints based on some checklist really makes me crack up, but again I'm sure that the teachings would be useful on a personal level (again, I'll reserve 'objectively' judging the level of saints at least until I reach said level or higher, for now I'll stick with figuring out what is most usfeul to me on my path :-) ).

 

 

EDIT: Actually if I had the cash and they were available I might get these http://www.meditationexpert.com/alchemy-fugiens-tapes.htm just to see how they did with it.

I do not accept that being a master of one (or three) traditions give you automatic understanding of all other systems (if that was the case we wouldn't have so many western experts screwing up eastern teachings), and don't accept that western alchemy was "really" just an internal process (it was internal and external, I'm a fan of Mark Stavish's book) but I've always thought one could probably effectively internalize the western process in the same way the Taoists internalized the originally external process.

...still I have enough to keep me busy for quite a while now, so I'm not disappointed I can't get them.

[寒月 Hanyue]

at the same time after reading this: http://www.meditationexpert.com/bestandworst.html I have very little interest in reading anything by William Bodri or Nan Huai-Chin.

 

Bodri is only a messenger, much of what Bodri writes has a slant I also find unpalatable. I do not however get the same feeling from Master Nan. Read the works that were not translated or released by Bodri and you will hear how different it sounds.

 

The Tao & Longevity book for example.

 

I wouldn't write off Master Nan simply because of Bodri's marketting.

 

All the best,

[astralc]

Thank you Snowmonki and Dao rain Tao.

 

Dao rain Tao, I did not know about being able to stand fro an hour (which I cannot do yet) before doing packing.

That's not how Chia teaches it, is that the way it was originally taught and/or still taught by others? I think that makes a lot of sense.

 

What I've been doing the last couple days is getting in the posture and smiling to my tan tiens.

Then scanning down my body and relaxing completely and doing 10-30 slow qigong breathes into the lower tan tien.

After this I do the packing breath as taught by Chia, making sure to be completely relaxed.

If I feel any tension at any point I stop and rlease it and I don't hold my breath beyond my comfort level.

At various stages through out I do bone breathing (just bone breathing, very gentle, no bone marrow packing right now).

I finish up with gently running the earth energy through the orbit 9-18 times (which is usually as long as I can stand).

 

So far I think this is working out well, I think I will put even more focus on the just standing for now, and I will work on seeing/feeling the body as a skeleton. This has been happening already a bit the more I do bone breathing and I do think it will help.

 

I really do appreciate your answers a lot.

Thank You.

 

sea-dog, from your description of your practice above I don't see you doing anything wrong or preemptive, if it feels good to you then keep doing it. Taoist meditation is also about moderation and listening to your body, you don't come across as obsessive and appear to have a good head on your shoulders, so, good luck and let us know how it goes.

Edited April 25, 2012 by astralc