Will the Real Healing Tao please stand up

[寒月 Hanyue]

[Jetsun]

I imagine many Taoists wont like the conclusion that Bodri comes to that many of their practises originate from the Buddha's meditation on 32 body parts, I wonder if he can really back up his claim. The flavour and intent seems to be quite different as the 32 body parts partially concerns meditation on disgust or repulsiveness whereas I don't know of any Taoist practise with that essence, and even Bodri's White Skeleton doesn't have this essence so even that must be an elaboration on the Buddha's instructions, it is an interesting meditation though I just tried it and it does feel powerful.

[RiverSnake]

No "Tradition" was born in a vacuum.

 

-My 2 cents

[Dainin]

[寒月 Hanyue]

I imagine many Taoists wont like the conclusion that Bodri comes to that many of their practises originate from the Buddha's meditation on 32 body parts, I wonder if he can really back up his claim. The flavour and intent seems to be quite different as the 32 body parts partially concerns meditation on disgust or repulsiveness whereas I don't know of any Taoist practise with that essence, and even Bodri's White Skeleton doesn't have this essence so even that must be an elaboration on the Buddha's instructions, it is an interesting meditation though I just tried it and it does feel powerful.

 

Bodri makes many claims, all based on his teachers teaching. History is informed speculation at best. Keep reading and you always find someone else able to use the same available resources to argue the opposite. It can be frustrating until you realise the truth of the matter, which is no-one really knows.

 

Joan Halifax wrote of the 'skeletonisation' motif that appears again and again in Shamanic practices related to the process of dismemberment that often occurs not only in intiations but simply whenever a shaman 'dies' to journey with the spirits.

 

"In approaching the edge of death the spirits gain a foothold...one learns to travel to the other realms and back. Relationships with the spirits are complex and varied.... Dismemberment and skeletonization are common initiatory themes. The initiation is the cure, and one is transformed in the process, gaining a new spiritual body." Donalee Campbell

 

I would say such practices that result in such experiences are the origins of even the Buddha's meditation. Everything becomes more sanitised in time.

 

I agree with you about the flavour and intent. Though Bodri's version does contain references to the body as 'dirty qi', and mentions that it is related to the Buddhist contemplation practices on the impurity of the body. Where someone "slowly envisions that their body gradually putrefies and becomes just bones, then dust...[you are] taught to visualise the decomposition of the body in consecutive stages: the body first swells, then becomes discoloured, decays, its blood and pus issue forth, the flesh falls away...etc" He has also referred to how in olden times the practice was undertaken in graveyards, where actual decomposing corpses were available and so the practitioner could use those to help with visualising their own skeletons and flesh falling off.

 

So it is mentioned to provide historical context, but omitted within the actual steps of the practice, you have to wonder who did the editing. I can't help but feel these thigns always start simple and become more complex. His version also makes greater use of and emphasises visualisation and imagery than other versions which emphasise feeling and awareness. I agree the Daoist versions are largely empty of these, and simply aim at forgetting it all.

 

I know little about Buddhism, though I have reliably been informed there is a great difference between Buddism the cultivation school and Buddism (religion) whatever that means. I do know most teachers and authors confuse me, so few seem to be able to cut through it all and speak clearly and pragmatically. I dabble on occasion when I find something of interest, if only to compare it with the Daoist practices.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

No "Tradition" was born in a vacuum.

 

Quite!

[寒月 Hanyue]

Two tacos? You can count me in, lol!

 

Hehe, now I'm hungry

[Jetsun]

 

I agree with you about the flavour and intent. Though Bodri's version does contain references to the body as 'dirty qi', and mentions that it is related to the Buddhist contemplation practices on the impurity of the body. Where someone "slowly envisions that their body gradually putrefies and becomes just bones, then dust...[you are] taught to visualise the decomposition of the body in consecutive stages: the body first swells, then becomes discoloured, decays, its blood and pus issue forth, the flesh falls away...etc" He has also referred to how in olden times the practice was undertaken in graveyards, where actual decomposing corpses were available and so the practitioner could use those to help with visualising their own skeletons and flesh falling off.

 

So it is mentioned to provide historical context, but omitted within the actual steps of the practice, you have to wonder who did the editing. I can't help but feel these thigns always start simple and become more complex. His version also makes greater use of and emphasises visualisation and imagery than other versions which emphasise feeling and awareness. I agree the Daoist versions are largely empty of these, and simply aim at forgetting it all.

 

I know little about Buddhism, though I have reliably been informed there is a great difference between Buddism the cultivation school and Buddism (religion) whatever that means. I do know most teachers and authors confuse me, so few seem to be able to cut through it all and speak clearly and pragmatically. I dabble on occasion when I find something of interest, if only to compare it with the Daoist practices.

 

Best,

 

Yes it seems there are different instructions, the ones here http://www.scribd.com/doc/67064883/William-Bodri-How-to-Practice-the-White-Skeleton-Meditation don't have much of the disgust meditation on the more repulsive parts of the body but the instructions elsewhere do. The more detailed meditation of this type which Bodri teaches seems more similar to the Chod techniques of Machig Labdron rather than straight from the Buddha, so this elaboration could come from there.

 

Personally I found it a good meditation because by focusing on the bones you ground the meditation in the earth element which I find gives the meditation stability so as things come and go I was less easily taken by them and could remain detached more easily, yet I can't find where the Buddha emphasised the focus on the bones his instructions seem to talk about all parts of the body equally, so I wonder where the emphasis on the bones came from.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Yes it seems there are different instructions, the ones here http://www.scribd.com/doc/67064883/William-Bodri-How-to-Practice-the-White-Skeleton-Meditation don't have much of the disgust meditation on the more repulsive parts of the body but the instructions elsewhere do.

 

That's yet another version from Bodri to the ones I have!

 

The meditation the hermit uses to heal Hakuin is similar and yet quite different to the skeleton meditation, but does involve dissolving the body.

 

The more detailed meditation of this type which Bodri teaches seems more similar to the Chod techniques of Machig Labdron rather than straight from the Buddha, so this elaboration could come from there.

 

Will have a look, but yes it is much closer to the Tibetan style than many Ch'an meditations. I prefer the simple method myself, I feel images/vision should occur naturally based out of direct sensual-feeling-awareness of ones own body. In fact I feel this is where the imagery originates from and it is a reversed engineered method to attempt to get the neophtye to the same experience.

 

Personally I found it a good meditation because by focusing on the bones you ground the meditation in the earth element which I find gives the meditation stability so as things come and go I was less easily taken by them and could remain detached more easily, yet I can't find where the Buddha emphasised the focus on the bones his instructions seem to talk about all parts of the body equally, so I wonder where the emphasis on the bones came from.

 

Yes I've been taught to use the skeletal system to ground myself, it certainly has stabilising effect.

 

See my previous post about skeletalisation for one aspect. Becoming bones alone is quite common. The bones are the densest part of us, or generally considered to be so. As such they are the biggest barrier to dissolution of self, so it would make sense they end up with more attention in some practices. Additionally the development of 内视 neishi or innervision is said to occur with the practice and this can result in seeing the bones of yourself like an x-ray (Doc Morris reports this) or even into the bodies of others like a kind of x-ray (YaMu has written of people at the Baoding Hospital in this regard).

 

There is also a predominence of the use of 'bone method' in various circles of the cultivation of 'arts' in both China and Japan. This is the underlying correct usage of the body. A bit chicken and the egg, which came first who knows, but it is interesting nonetheless.

 

Best,

[forestofclarity]

That's not necessarily the case. Bodily repulsion is a different meditation. I learned the traditional 32 parts of the body meditation on my last retreat, and it had nothing to do with repulsion.

 

I imagine many Taoists wont like the conclusion that Bodri comes to that many of their practises originate from the Buddha's meditation on 32 body parts, I wonder if he can really back up his claim. The flavour and intent seems to be quite different as the 32 body parts partially concerns meditation on disgust or repulsiveness whereas I don't know of any Taoist practise with that essence, and even Bodri's White Skeleton doesn't have this essence so even that must be an elaboration on the Buddha's instructions, it is an interesting meditation though I just tried it and it does feel powerful.

[寒月 Hanyue]

That's not necessarily the case. Bodily repulsion is a different meditation. I learned the traditional 32 parts of the body meditation on my last retreat, and it had nothing to do with repulsion.

 

I believe Jetsun was drawing attention to the relationship of the practices, rather than saying they are one and the same??

 

Best,

[Jetsun]

That's not necessarily the case. Bodily repulsion is a different meditation. I learned the traditional 32 parts of the body meditation on my last retreat, and it had nothing to do with repulsion.

 

I'm only going by what I read on the web but my understanding is the that the 32 parts of the body meditation originates from the Pali Canon meditation named Patikulamanasikara which translates as "reflections on repulsiveness" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patikulamanasikara which is meant for monks as an antidote to lust by including urine, sweat, pus etc in your meditation.

[Cameron]

I still find Winn's interpretation of HT interesting. His take on Taoism and Buddhism is also quite interesting.

 

His approach to sexual practices always seemed pretty laid back and balanced. If I remember correctly he teaches that it's ok to go "all the way" but do lots of testicle breathing to draw the jing out.

 

I think he's also not into Iron Shirt and says that it's not really a Taoist practice. Actually, this brings up something he told me years ago when I was interested in HT, that Buddhist stuff uses force/will/intention to sort of control and manipulate the body and authentic Taoist arts use the bodies natural forces to cultivate oneself. Or something like that.

 

A classic example of this is when one of my first Zen teachers would call the body a "shit bag". I think from Winn's perspective this idea would be like attacking your jing.

[寒月 Hanyue]

I'm only going by what I read on the web...

 

I think the 32 body part meditation CAN be used within Patikulamanasikara, but it is not specifically one and the same.

 

This does however and along Cameron's post highlight something important.

 

WHY are you practicing what you are practicing?

HOW are you practicing what you are practicing?

WHAT are you practicing?

 

I have found few teachers who actually openly and freely pass on all three of the above.

 

Best,

[styrofoamdog]

Yes it seems there are different instructions, the ones here http://www.scribd.com/doc/67064883/William-Bodri-How-to-Practice-the-White-Skeleton-Meditation don't have much of the disgust meditation on the more repulsive parts of the body but the instructions elsewhere do. The more detailed meditation of this type which Bodri teaches seems more similar to the Chod techniques of Machig Labdron rather than straight from the Buddha, so this elaboration could come from there.

 

Personally I found it a good meditation because by focusing on the bones you ground the meditation in the earth element which I find gives the meditation stability so as things come and go I was less easily taken by them and could remain detached more easily, yet I can't find where the Buddha emphasised the focus on the bones his instructions seem to talk about all parts of the body equally, so I wonder where the emphasis on the bones came from.

 

The version of the White Skeleton Meditation that William Bodri teaches is the one taught by Nan Huai-Chin, which in turn comes from a dhyana manual that was translated by Kumarajiva in the early 5th century, Chanmi Yaofa Jing (禪祕要法經). Not sure what the original Sanskrit title was, though. The method is not quite the same as the formula used in some sutras that are in the Pali Canon. It is more complex and there are many variations and different ways to practice.