Scientific Approach to Practice

[findley]

As a genuine Daoist, in earnest pursuit of Dao, I have to approach everything logically, and with a scientific attitude.

 

I can't allow myself to indulge in spiritual fantasies and rumors.

 

So, I thought I would advance the question: Can anybody explain qigong in better terms, than the intentional development of the bodies electromagnetic field?

 

Apparantly the bodies electromagnetic field stores metabolic energy in cells, triggers internal changes... enhances the efficiency of the nervous system.... what else?

 

I suspect that there is a strong connection between contracted muscles and tissues and nerves' EM fields... for example, whatever muscles / tissues may be chronically contracted (clenched,) which over a long period of time will have an adverse effect on the EM field in that part of the body. The failing EM field then leads to degenerating tissues, because they can't metabolize energy at an efficient rate.

 

 

But if we do Qigong, and enhance the bodies EM field, then I think that those chronically clenched muscles/tissues will release, which will lead to a healthier tissue metabolism. Potentially, I think that you can become very incredibly healthy, by maintaining a strong EM field, as the body metabolizes energy at efficient rates, and the general nervous system is improved-- which includes things like awesome neurotansmitting proweress.

 

Feelings of peace and well-being follow, if not only from heightened state of health, but because all the muscles/tissues that were chronically clenched have finally been relaxed. You become cool, calm, collective, and happy. The physical burden of chronic emotional states are released.

 

 

 

..............but does the potential of qigong practice end there?????

 

 

 

yes , probably. Unless anybody can explain to me in rational terms the 'mystical' consequences of qigong, that most of you have been brain-washed to believe.

[Birch]

It's always pleasant to hear I've been brainwashed:-)

I've also been brainwashed by science - over and over again, everyday something newly "scientific" (or just real bad "science journalism") attempts to influence me, but I digress.

 

The actual nature of the forces/currents in play in qigong is, as far as I know, still up for definition. EM could be one but that's a specific frequency range and not an isolated type of force, is it? Or are all forces now considered "EM"? (are any forces isolated?).

 

From practice, I think your hypothesis is an interesting one. What IMO might be missing from it is the "information" content of qi. But maybe EM waves are like carrier waves or something?

[64changes]

Scientific method is really quite young compared to Daoist thought.

 

Maybe you need to re-evaluate your methodology.

 

Just a suggestion.

[Mokona]

Feelings of peace and well-being follow, if not only from heightened state of health, but because all the muscles/tissues that were chronically clenched have finally been relaxed. You become cool, calm, collective, and happy. The physical burden of chronic emotional states are released.

 

..............but does the potential of qigong practice end there?????

 

yes , probably. Unless anybody can explain to me in rational terms the 'mystical' consequences of qigong, that most of you have been brain-washed to believe.

 

What practice are you persuing that requires the clenching and unclenching of muscles?

 

The results come rolling in when I pull in positive emotions and do my chi sets. I feel the emotion moving about and this seems to also cause an increase in positive emotion, not just in my practice, but throughout the day. Sometimes I sit at work and the postive emotions of being happy, confident and well being just sneak in. I don't know what the explanation being the biological process is, though. I just enjoy the results.

 

As far as crazy mystical brainwashing, i'll admit no one told me I could come across projected practitioners with the ability to effect my energy and physical body, but of course no one told me, and I didn't believe it myself. She just kept making my second chakra burst with bliss/orgasm, and pulling it up to my head. It's not something I had ever tried to do on my own, or heard of. Therefore, I don't understand who or what brainwashed me, unless there is subtext engrained somewhere being my eyelids.

 

Good luck finidng your scientific answers, that is fairly similar to how I started making progress, but of course I consistantly practiced something to watch for the effects so I could have a clue of my own.

[RyanO]

I also place my trust in science as one of the best tools we have for understanding the objective facts of reality.

 

That said, I see three problems with it (that is the scientific method in particular, not logic):

 

1) It is sloooow

 

2) It is EXPENSIVE

 

3) It is ultimately philosophically limited because it requires an objective, detached observer (and indeed seems to assume a materialist metaphysic). To answer the highest questions of reality, it seems likely to me that one has to let go of the idea of a separate observer and thus the scientific method. With regard to this, Daoist philosophy makes more sense to me than a materialist one.

 

Science is only just beginning to research qigong and related phenomena. It will take a lot of time and resources to understand completely what is exactly happening, in terms of results but especially theory. Meanwhile, I will continue to practice qigong and observe the benefits myself without needing to understand the whole thing scientifically.

 

I think it is very very important for people to be comfortable with not knowing certain things about reality. The craving for absolute knowledge is what leads to dogmatism of various kinds.

 

I am also skeptical of what I see as some of the more superstitious of chinese medicine and spirituality in general. I remain open minded on some of these points, but again, I let the practice speak for itself.

 

Because mere objective knowledge is secondary to my higher goals of health and well-being, it is ok for me to let the lines between objective truth and placebo effect be blurry. But placebo doesn't work as well when one knows it's a placebo. So it takes a skeptical/rational mind more work to let go of it's inquiring nature in order to gain the benefits of a practice like qigong.

 

From my research, Western (especially Chaos) magick tends to understand this placebo relationship quite well. But again, there are some things that may be objectively true about some of the more mystical aspects of qigong that we simply don't know yet (scientficially).

 

The point is, there is a time and place for skeptical inquiry, and a time and place for being immersed in practice.

Edited March 22, 2012 by RyanO

[Jetsun]

..............but does the potential of qigong practice end there?????

 

 

 

yes , probably. Unless anybody can explain to me in rational terms the 'mystical' consequences of qigong, that most of you have been brain-washed to believe.

 

The scientific approach is good, essentially the Buddha was a scientist but some aspects of Qigong may not be able to be explained in rational terms at this time, at least not by me, but that doesn't mean they dont exist, the Stillness Movement practitioners may be able to explain better but this other aspect is often described as non linear. For example my personal issues to do with healing have been very accurately read and diagnosed by people on this board who have never met me and live in a different country, you could call this aspect the more Shamanic side as it seems to work outside of regular notions of distance and maybe time, but I don't blame people for not believing in it I didn't either until I had experiences of it. I still don't really believe in distance healing though but I do believe in distance sensing or distance reading of people and other such abilities which arises out of some qigong practice.

[doc benway]

As a genuine Daoist, in earnest pursuit of Dao, I have to approach everything logically, and with a scientific attitude.

Interesting statement here.

Dao is not restricted by logic, logic is a convention of thought.

At the core of reality you will find paradox.

Science knows this as well.

And good science acknowledges its limitations.

 

I can't allow myself to indulge in spiritual fantasies and rumors.

 

So, I thought I would advance the question: Can anybody explain qigong in better terms, than the intentional development of the bodies electromagnetic field?

 

Apparantly the bodies electromagnetic field stores metabolic energy in cells, triggers internal changes... enhances the efficiency of the nervous system.... what else?

 

I suspect that there is a strong connection between contracted muscles and tissues and nerves' EM fields... for example, whatever muscles / tissues may be chronically contracted (clenched,) which over a long period of time will have an adverse effect on the EM field in that part of the body. The failing EM field then leads to degenerating tissues, because they can't metabolize energy at an efficient rate.

 

 

But if we do Qigong, and enhance the bodies EM field, then I think that those chronically clenched muscles/tissues will release, which will lead to a healthier tissue metabolism. Potentially, I think that you can become very incredibly healthy, by maintaining a strong EM field, as the body metabolizes energy at efficient rates, and the general nervous system is improved-- which includes things like awesome neurotansmitting proweress.

 

Feelings of peace and well-being follow, if not only from heightened state of health, but because all the muscles/tissues that were chronically clenched have finally been relaxed. You become cool, calm, collective, and happy. The physical burden of chronic emotional states are released.

 

 

 

..............but does the potential of qigong practice end there?????

 

 

 

yes , probably. Unless anybody can explain to me in rational terms the 'mystical' consequences of qigong, that most of you have been brain-washed to believe.

I have one foot in the scientific camp and one in the cultivation camp.

If you restrict your experience of Qigong to scientific analysis, you will be disappointed.

Certainly there is the physiological aspect which some like to study.

But there many other aspects that do not lend themselves to the scientific paradigm.

 

In my opinion, science cannot yet approach Qi or Qigong in a meaningful, comprehensive, and satisfactory fashion.

And if it can, I'm not convinced it is or would be helpful.

 

Can you explain your conscious awareness in scientific terms?

Certainly we can discuss the neurological foundation of consciousness and awareness for hours but there is an aspect of consciousness and awareness that defies scientific explanation or analysis.

It is the experiential aspect. And this is at the core of Daoism.

Daoist cultivation (Qigong, Neigong, Taijiquan, and so on), exists to help guide us along this path.

It is not dependent on or amenable to comprehensive scientific analysis, like it or not.

 

Qigong invites us to open and explore the interaction between conscious awareness and physical manifestation.

My experience of Qi is more one of the process or interaction between manifestation and awareness (Jing <-> Qi <-> Shen).

This is an exploration of your inner process and workings from an experiential point of view.

To reduce or equate this to a concept from a different paradigm, such as electromagnetic energy, is inaccurate and misleading.

The scientific paradigm has not yet achieved enough understanding of consciousness and awareness to create an adequate model. It's just a poor approximation that leaves out more than it explains.

 

You can try to find ways to mold the Daoist paradigm (which is inherently experiential) into the scientific paradigm (which is based on a fixed set of conditions, parameters, and observation) and there is certainly overlap and agreement in some areas.

But in doing this you are excluding a core element that is really at the heart of the Daoist paradigm.

 

There is no need to believe anything in Qigong.

Just to practice.

Rational explanations are limited - explain the color red to me so that I see red, making no assumptions.

Qigong lets me see the color, science helps me to describe it but never captures it's essence.

[joeblast]

It's always pleasant to hear I've been brainwashed:-)

I've also been brainwashed by science - over and over again, everyday something newly "scientific" (or just real bad "science journalism") attempts to influence me, but I digress.

 

The actual nature of the forces/currents in play in qigong is, as far as I know, still up for definition. EM could be one but that's a specific frequency range and not an isolated type of force, is it? Or are all forces now considered "EM"? (are any forces isolated?).

 

From practice, I think your hypothesis is an interesting one. What IMO might be missing from it is the "information" content of qi. But maybe EM waves are like carrier waves or something?

EM is a force-manifestation, not a frequency - radio, infrared, visible light, ultraviolet, x rays, gamma rays...all EM, all different frequencies. (ascending, in this example.) EM is the most prominent force we deal with, the only stronger force is the Strong Force that holds quarks & atomic nuclei together, but its not "prominent" since it drops off in strength at about .^-14 meters. The weak force is a sort of 'force of pressure' that allows for things like a quark to flip its charge which can lead to things like a proton turning into a neutron (since they only have one flip of 3 quark's difference between the two) but the range is even smaller ^-17 meters - so usually the strong force will manifest first but in special cases things like neutrinos only act via the weak force, but still the interaction is very narrow - but think, with a constant stream of neutrinos flowing unimpeded through you, what if the energies were coherent enough for the lagrangians to line up and more weak interactions take place? hmm And of course, gravity.

 

 

Science is science. So long as you're being scientific and following The Method. Modern science is excellent, but one cannot be so arrogant as to dismiss ancient wisdoms - TCM came about without the aid of "modern science" and was the result of long, concerted, honest observations. So when you design an apparatus to detect a certain frequency and pattern (60Hz AC power can be one consideration,) and you do not detect it, can you honestly say that no frequencies, patterns, potentials are being detected?

[Ish]

As a practioner i can't be bothered with all this scientific definition. It's useless for me.

[Sifu ReL]

science doesnt prove or disprove anything about death, so idnt believe all what science says

 

cuz its just humans telling other humans, how or what things are according to

"MAJORITY VIEW"

[Sifu ReL]

As a practioner i can't be bothered with all this scientific definition. It's useless for me.

 

 

 

 

I AGREE TO THE FULLIST

[ChiDragon]

As a genuine Daoist, in earnest pursuit of Dao, I have to approach everything logically, and with a scientific attitude.

 

I can't allow myself to indulge in spiritual fantasies and rumors.

 

So, I thought I would advance the question: Can anybody explain qigong in better terms, than the intentional development of the bodies electromagnetic field?

 

Apparantly the bodies electromagnetic field stores metabolic energy in cells, triggers internal changes... enhances the efficiency of the nervous system.... what else?

 

I suspect that there is a strong connection between contracted muscles and tissues and nerves' EM fields... for example, whatever muscles / tissues may be chronically contracted (clenched,) which over a long period of time will have an adverse effect on the EM field in that part of the body. The failing EM field then leads to degenerating tissues, because they can't metabolize energy at an efficient rate.

 

 

But if we do Qigong, and enhance the bodies EM field, then I think that those chronically clenched muscles/tissues will release, which will lead to a healthier tissue metabolism. Potentially, I think that you can become very incredibly healthy, by maintaining a strong EM field, as the body metabolizes energy at efficient rates, and the general nervous system is improved-- which includes things like awesome neurotansmitting proweress.

 

Feelings of peace and well-being follow, if not only from heightened state of health, but because all the muscles/tissues that were chronically clenched have finally been relaxed. You become cool, calm, collective, and happy. The physical burden of chronic emotional states are released.

 

 

 

..............but does the potential of qigong practice end there?????

 

 

 

yes , probably. Unless anybody can explain to me in rational terms the 'mystical' consequences of qigong, that most of you have been brain-washed to believe.

 

Yes, sir. I have the same scientific notion as you have about QiGong few years back. I have make a study by looking into the physiology of the human body. I had reached to a conclusion that ATP is my answer. As far as with the explanation of the EM, it is out of the question in my mind.

[joeblast]

Yes, sir. I have the same scientific notion as you have about QiGong few years back. I have make a study by looking into the physiology of the human body. I had reached to a conclusion that ATP is my answer. As far as with the explanation of the EM, it is out of the question in my mind.

what do you think makes ATP react?

[寒月 Hanyue]

Unless anybody can explain to me in rational terms the 'mystical' consequences of qigong, that most of you have been brain-washed to believe.

 

What is Love? Nothing more than neurotransmitters and biochemical thingammies affecting the nervous system? I probably shouldn't beleive in that either...

 

Or is experience worth diving into regardless of the things that it can be reduced to under a microscope?

 

Facing the elements on top of a mountain is not the same as understanding the meteorological reasons as to how and why the weather can change so drastically.

 

It is wise to pursue cultivation with a sensible mind, but if you close it to posibilities to make yourself more comfortable how much are you pursuing it?

 

Best,

Edited March 22, 2012 by snowmonki

[ChiDragon]

what do you think makes ATP react?

Can you be little more explicit....???

[dwai]

Why is there is a need to get "Scientific" verification? Why not follow a specific path/philosophy and see if it gets you the results it promises. If it does, it works...if it doesn't it doesn't work -- simple!

 

It's like saying I want to validate TCM with Western Medicine. Both are different and have different praxes and how can you apply the methodology of one theoritical system and validate another? Obviously, Western Medicine cannot validate TCM or vice versa (if anything each would invalidate the other).

 

Similar story is in play here...ask me to elaborate more and I can get into the boring details

[RyanO]

Why is there is a need to get "Scientific" verification? Why not follow a specific path/philosophy and see if it gets you the results it promises. If it does, it works...if it doesn't it doesn't work -- simple!

 

 

Because science has proven to be the most accurate way to describe objective reality, and has the best safeguards for detecting untruths.

[ChiDragon]

There is no need to know but it won't hurt to talk about it for those who are interested. It would be more appreciative and meaningful if one knows why and how it works.

[zanshin]

I don't know how EM field of body would be studied but we can study electical activity in muscles pretty well with electromyography. Baseline electrical activity in muscles (as shown by EMG) is less with good postural alignment and more with stress, I'm sure breathing right helps too. EMG studies on practitioners might be interesting. You're right about chronically clenched muscles harder to metabolize energy and more pathology.

[RyanO]

In addition to understanding how qigong works physiologically, I think it is important to address what science can offer to the philosophical aspects of qigong.

 

I agree with Sam Harris, neuroscientist and author of The End of Faith, who feels that the open-mindedness of science is the perfect antidote to the dogmatism of religion. The danger of believing things without scientific or otherwise good evidence is that we may become easily convinced by our emotions about the objective nature of things.

 

Science in this sense merely represents the universal spirit of honest inquiry and reasonable thinking. Because qigong is so powerful and charges emotions, this groundedness is essential. Falun dafa is a good example of a qigong sect lacking this groundedness.

 

http://www.samharris.org/

[doc benway]

It seems like there are three aspects to consider -

- Philosophical

- Analytical

- Experiential

 

There is the mind, thought, and all it creates. This includes philosophy and all analytical methods.

Then there is whatever it is beyond that, including the true nature of what we see "out there" and "in here."

And we can use the analytical methods to measure and define.

We can use the philosophical methods to interpret and conceptualize.

And we can use experiential methods to explore that in a different way, through direct experience.

The experiential way can show us things that are beyond the capacity of science and philosophy to truly capture - the color red.

All of it is worthy of careful examination, otherwise your exploration is restricted, as will be the "understanding."

And understanding includes both the philosophical and scientific - they are different expressions of intellectual measurement and definition.

And there is certainly much that is beyond understanding.

How to approach that?

[joeblast]

Can you be little more explicit....???

well, your car does not accelerate if you do not step on the gas pedal. same thing. with no electromotive force, where is the impetus for the ATP to react?

[ChiDragon]

well, your car does not accelerate if you do not step on the gas pedal. same thing. with no electromotive force, where is the impetus for the ATP to react?

 

The car require fuel for it to accelerate. Based on your assumption, you think ATP requires the electromotive force for it to react. However, that is not the case.

 

The ATP does not require electromotive force to react. Glucose and oxygen are the fuels to produce ATP to provide the bio-energy for the human body to react. All the electrical signals are generated by ATP known as action potential. The action potential is the key factor for aiding the heart, brain and all the muscles to react. Without the continuous reproduction of ATP with glucose and oxygen, the human body will cease to function.

[joeblast]

keep studying them books, cd

[dwai]

Because science has proven to be the most accurate way to describe objective reality, and has the best safeguards for detecting untruths.

 

Has it really? Science cannot even have one unified theory to explain all objective phenomena. Same set of rules aren't valid once you change the scale of reference...

 

I think Science is just another framework to interpret phenomena. That it is the norm doesn't make it the best. And I am an Engineer by background, making my living in the world of Science...so I do know quite a bit about this subject.