Scientific Approach to Practice

[findley]

Kempomaster, that is great. You sound very sane, and I believe you.

 

I am open to the possibility of close-distance healing, but the possibility of long-distance healing is baffling. I wonder how it is possible. The only way I can imagine that can convey energy through the space-time continuum , involves quantum entanglement, or... primordial nothingness.

 

Could consciousness stem from this primordial nothingness, and then have the potential to reach back through primordial nothingness to another point in space-time? ...yes... actually I do believe this is possible.

 

 

Hey, do you think I can heal hypertopic scars on face with qigong, or does the body consider them already 'healed' up? A chinese dermatologist really fucked up my face with a laser, and now I am left with ypertropic scars all over my face. I am getting back into qigong again hoping that they will heal... I hope so =\

 

 

 

...besides... kempo, what do you feel like you 'do' when you do distance healing? Is it just an intent..? can you describe how exactly you do it, (or how you think you do it?)

[dawei]

do you think I can heal hypertopic scars on face with qigong, or does the body consider them already 'healed' up? A chinese dermatologist really fucked up my face with a laser, and now I am left with ypertropic scars all over my face. I am getting back into qigong again hoping that they will heal... I hope so =\

I have seen scar protocols using BodyTalk. My Medical Qigong master has integrated that into his healing practices for a very long time. I have a friend who (if I recall) had the protocol applied (by someone else) and the scar oozed fluid for a day and then healed over without a scar. She is deeply involved in energy work herself.

 

I could send you, for informational purposes, a pdf of that protocol but one cannot really apply it without knowing the overall system. send me an email in private message.

[Birch]

"The thing is, the "idea" or intention can make energy move and make things change physical form."

 

That's not a "force"?

 

I don't understand (yet).

 

Thanks for the Bucky link.

 

Other thing I don't get is why is the Sophia myth getting played out right now? Did scientists just like the story? What if it were a metaphor that is being misused to benefit some and not others (although how any of it could benefit anyone by changing from life into inorganic non-life (but not "dead") is beyond little me.

[dawei]

"The thing is, the "idea" or intention can make energy move and make things change physical form."

 

That's not a "force"?

 

I don't understand (yet).

'Energy' may not be a good word but it is the best one so far... does that make sense?

 

I appreciate the challenge of talking about Qi as energy as it is a good reminder that it is more than that and it may be something we just don't have a proper word for. But that we can experience it and if anyone has had acupuncture they can attest it can produce the same sensation experience as needling. That something moves seems without debate. That one can use their mind to effect the same sensation as needling is quite an experience. And it seems one thing to effect it in yourself and quite another to do it in another.

 

I once did 'neddle-less' acupuncture to a retired acupuncturist in China. She did not necessarily believe in Qigong for the same reason that most of the country does not... the government saw to this. And I did not tell her what I was going to do... but I did it to see if she recognized any Qi flow in her body. When someone in the room saw what I was doing they asked her, her feeling? Laying flat on her back and not able to see me at all, she said she felt Qi running up her leg and into her kidneys and warming them. I had applied the 'needle-less needles' to 'Kidney 1' point.

 

So I generally agree that to 'move' something, one needs a force. Yang, Jwing-Ming says the mind (intention) is an EMF, and he assigns Qi as 'bioelectromagnetic energy'. While he is more a martial master than a Medical Qigong master, his background is as an engineer. There are fewer Qigong / martial authors who have penned as many books as he has. His "The Root of Chinese Qigong" is worth a read... as well as many untold others.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Why do I post on this Forum?

 

I have no reason to brag or be delusional.

 

I post so that students of Medical Qigong can get an idea of areas of human need that Medical Qigong can help.

 

By the way - the are case reports of Distance Healing's done - for those in need, yet they didn't know that I had treated....PLACEBO - I don't think so!

 

I honestly don't care whether anyone believes about the medical qigong or not. Every person is responsible for their own thoughts and beliefs. Quite frankly I don't expect people to simply read about something on a forum by people they don't know and believe them because it is not sommething I do. And I don't expect others to do anything different to myself.

 

Anyone who knows me knows just how skeptical I am (it was ingrained in my by one of my teachers), I go on what I have personally felt and experienced not what I've heard and I certainly don't think anyone else should do any different.

 

I have felt what Ya Mu and Kempomaster can do, but it doesn't mean I'll take everything they tell me and simply accept it. No, I'll file it away, and wait. Wait until the opportunity arises when I can observe or feel/experience it for myself. And then I'll have a sense of 'knowing' about it rather than an idea based on what I heard. What is not scientific about that?

 

Kempomaster has posted much about his medical qigong healing on this forum, he does so in support of his teacher Ya Mu and to allow people to hear of just what is possible with medical qigong.

 

Much of it sounds very remarkable, and often hard to believe. I posted about Kempomaster simply so people could hear about his efforts from someone other than himself. To know that other people had benefitted and are grateful to him. This can be quite different to simply reading his own posts about his own healings. A similar reason as to why he posts, so that it isn't just his teacher Ya Mu talking of the results of medical qigong. Where people may hold Ya Mu up and think the results occur simply because it is him.

 

Now wait a minute, you said you didn't expect anyone to believe you?

 

No I don't. But if they are not even made aware of the option, of the possibility, how can they even begin to look and explore and experience to find out FOR THEMSELVES? Which is all anyone can do, no?

 

A number of people, many of whom are on this board have expressed in private their appreciation of kempomaster, his healing work, and his work in support of his teacher. I felt it was time it was said openly.

 

Why should I not express gratitude and thanks publically to a friend for helping? I am not trying to prosetylse, nor change anyone's believes.

 

I hope this can be understood and accepted in the spirit with which it was intended.

 

All the best,

Edited March 26, 2012 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

the possibility of long-distance healing is baffling. I wonder how it is possible.

 

Yes it is. I do not understand it. I have experienced four people work on me long distance. I never believed in it either. I have no idea how it works, though I have their explanations.

 

I should say, the medical qigong that Ya Mu teaches is NOT like reiki or what most people consider to be a laying on of hands qigong healing. And there are, unfortunately but as is to be expected, many claiming to do things that they are simply incapable of, same as any field of expertise.

 

Best regards,

[exorcist_1699]

Now I have a question...similar to the questions raised by others here.

 

How did the Taoists come to have this knowledge?

If not observable or measurable by the normal senses and equipment...

 

 

 

Did "someone" or "something" drop on the scene and hand this knowledge to them?

Did all the knowledge come from "elsewhere" via meditation, dreams, etc?

 

For example, Jesus came and directly explained secret teachings to his followers. The gnostics speak quite a bit about this. Jesus being part man, part "god" would have known this information. He may have been "not of this Earth"...we can only speculate.

 

 

Sounds like some pretty heavy duty information. With a built in protective element.

 

I guess I also ask this in a historical sense. Were there tales of where the Taoist knowledge came from, what it's source was?

 

People can get the knowledge through:

 

1) their own practice, not necesarily meditation, but other practices such as Taiji.

 

2) Taoist and TCM classics;

 

3) TCM's medical cases which have accumulated and amounted to millions of them after a time span of 2,000 years. Because TCM's analysis of diseases and related symtons are under the framework of yin/yang, jing-qi-shen and five-element, reading those material is helpful for our understanding of what life is. Just like a study of a damaged brain can tell you a lot about how our brain works, a study of qi in its unbalanced form or jing in its deficient status , can tell you a lot about what jing,qi, shen and their inter-relations are . For example, deficiency of jing can lead to difficulty in breathing...etc

 

Of course, some of those phenomena are observable, but not in that sense of being done by an objective observer , strictly requested by modern science.

Edited March 26, 2012 by exorcist_1699

[ChiDragon]

deficiency of jing can lead to difficulty in breathing...etc

 

I think it is the other way around; breathing is before jing. The deficiency of jing is due to poor breathing. We just cannot ignore the fact about the lack of oxygen which is the essence of life according to modern science.

 

Chi Kung will help to correct any breathing problem to improve the survivability of life.

Edited March 26, 2012 by ChiDragon

[KoffeeKommando]

The deficiency of jing is due to poor breathing. We just cannot ignore the fact about the lack of oxygen which is the essence of life according to modern science.

 

Chi Kung will help to correct any breathing problem to improve the survivability of life.

 

Cancer cells are killed when exposed to oxygen.

 

I'd say it's critical we all learn proper breathing.

High oxygen levels in the blood probably have a "synergistic" protective effect.

 

Diseases/pests attack weakness. Just like in plants.

If the soil they grow in is full of the proper minerals etc., the plants are immune to attack.

[ChiDragon]

Cancer cells are killed when exposed to oxygen.

 

I'd say it's critical we all learn proper breathing.

High oxygen levels in the blood probably have a "synergistic" protective effect.

 

Diseases/pests attack weakness. Just like in plants.

If the soil they grow in is full of the proper minerals etc., the plants are immune to attack.

 

Yes, high adequate level of oxygen in the blood will provide and maintain a maximum number of white blood cells in the immune system to fight off any disease. As soon some white blood cells died, with a constant amount of oxygen provided to the body will be continuously re-manufacture new white blood cells to replace the old or dead ones.

 

People with a weak respiratory system seem to have poor health due to hypoxia. The Chi Kung practitioners know how to breathe in a good amount of oxygen to provide energy fuel for the body. That is why they are so energetic and almost never get sick.

Edited March 27, 2012 by ChiDragon

[unmike]

As a genuine Daoist, in earnest pursuit of Dao, I have to approach everything logically, and with a scientific attitude.

 

I can't allow myself to indulge in spiritual fantasies and rumors.

 

So, I thought I would advance the question: Can anybody explain qigong in better terms, than the intentional development of the bodies electromagnetic field?

 

Apparantly the bodies electromagnetic field stores metabolic energy in cells, triggers internal changes... enhances the efficiency of the nervous system.... what else?

 

I suspect that there is a strong connection between contracted muscles and tissues and nerves' EM fields... for example, whatever muscles / tissues may be chronically contracted (clenched,) which over a long period of time will have an adverse effect on the EM field in that part of the body. The failing EM field then leads to degenerating tissues, because they can't metabolize energy at an efficient rate.

 

 

But if we do Qigong, and enhance the bodies EM field, then I think that those chronically clenched muscles/tissues will release, which will lead to a healthier tissue metabolism. Potentially, I think that you can become very incredibly healthy, by maintaining a strong EM field, as the body metabolizes energy at efficient rates, and the general nervous system is improved-- which includes things like awesome neurotansmitting proweress.

 

Feelings of peace and well-being follow, if not only from heightened state of health, but because all the muscles/tissues that were chronically clenched have finally been relaxed. You become cool, calm, collective, and happy. The physical burden of chronic emotional states are released.

 

 

 

..............but does the potential of qigong practice end there?????

 

 

 

yes , probably. Unless anybody can explain to me in rational terms the 'mystical' consequences of qigong, that most of you have been brain-washed to believe.

 

Qi is not rote electromagnetic interaction. It is more akin to the information change precipitated by such. EM is only a single manifestation of a much broader phenomenon.

 

At a very rudimentary, oversimplified level, charge flows in the body through the conductive fiber optic network we call fascia. The most important molecules at work here are, primarily, collagen (and its apatite and copper doping) and water. Both are polar, both are conductive, and collagen is actually the scaffold which gives order and structure to the water. Collagen is, among other things, piezoelectric, which means a voltage is created in response to pressure or warping. Each and every movement creates currents which resonate through your network of connective tissues. The water thermally insulates it so, when stressed, it doesn't overheat and break. It allows the fibers to gel, creating, in effect, a liquid crystal. This is but where it starts.

 

Each meridian is composed of chains of connective tissue which bind, shape, and unite the muscles/ligaments/tendons/bones. Similarly, as they pass through your torso, they also bind and shape your organs. This is where the acupuncture and reflexology methods begin. As each organ utilizes, produces, and regulates different chemicals, hormones, enzymes, proteins, signals, charges, and neurotransmitters, the way you move and build up your body through exercise, especially like yoga or qi gong, drastically affects your organ and mental health. The small intestine, for example, houses 90% of the body's serotonin, the most well known neurotransmitter, while only 10% resides in the brain. Do you listen to your gut enough? Can you quiet the noise to even hear it clearly? Movement is not the only thing that induces charge. Attention is another mechanism.

 

Certain larger circuits, such as the centerline channels of the microcosmic/small heavenly orbit/circuit, have interesting side effects. Focusing large amounts of current and progressively passing them through the orbit allows for the activation and subsequent ionization of certain (al)chemical components. Testosterone, serotonin, oxytocin, and histamine are all important for various reasons, and each plays a unique role. With the proper techniques (practices, attitudes, intentions, movements, breath control, a partner or guru), many things are possible. One example is the synthesis from tryptamine/serotonin of melatonin, a UV reactive molecule. Its counterparts are eventually realized as harmine, harmaline, and pinoline. Finally, these MonoAmineOxidase Inhibitors can serve their purpose by blocking the destruction of the end product of 5meo DiMethylTryptamine, an incredibly potent hallucinogen/entheogen. None of this is theoretical. Mantak Chia has a book out about totall darkness retreat meditations and how this process functions, but some of us have accidentally achieved it during lovemaking or meditation, tripped balls, and done years of research in order to understand what had even happened.

 

There is more, vastly more, to it than this simple, crude explanation would make it seem, but this small fragment will hopefully give a start to the answer to your original question.

[ChiDragon]

1. As a genuine Daoist, in earnest pursuit of Dao, I have to approach everything logically, and with a scientific attitude.

 

2. I can't allow myself to indulge in spiritual fantasies and rumors.

 

3. So, I thought I would advance the question: Can anybody explain qigong in better terms, than the intentional development of the bodies electromagnetic field?

 

4. Apparantly the bodies electromagnetic field stores metabolic energy in cells, triggers internal changes... enhances the efficiency of the nervous system.... what else?

 

5. I suspect that there is a strong connection between contracted muscles and tissues and nerves' EM fields... for example, whatever muscles / tissues may be chronically contracted (clenched,) which over a long period of time will have an adverse effect on the EM field in that part of the body. The failing EM field then leads to degenerating tissues, because they can't metabolize energy at an efficient rate.

 

 

6. But if we do Qigong, and enhance the bodies EM field, then I think that those chronically clenched muscles/tissues will release, which will lead to a healthier tissue metabolism. Potentially, I think that you can become very incredibly healthy, by maintaining a strong EM field, as the body metabolizes energy at efficient rates, and the general nervous system is improved-- which includes things like awesome neurotansmitting proweress.

 

7. Feelings of peace and well-being follow, if not only from heightened state of health, but because all the muscles/tissues that were chronically clenched have finally been relaxed. You become cool, calm, collective, and happy. The physical burden of chronic emotional states are released.

 

..............but does the potential of qigong practice end there?????

 

yes , probably. Unless anybody can explain to me in rational terms the 'mystical' consequences of qigong, that most of you have been brain-washed to believe.

 

Now, I have more time and thoughts about these serious and interesting questions. I would like to go over them slowly, post by post, with each item scientifically.

[ChiDragon]

1. As a genuine Daoist, in earnest pursuit of Dao, I have to approach everything logically, and with a scientific attitude.

 

2. I can't allow myself to indulge in spiritual fantasies and rumors.

 

3. So, I thought I would advance the question: Can anybody explain qigong in better terms, than the intentional development of the bodies electromagnetic field?

 

1 and 2. That was what I had been doing all the time.

 

3. Yes, I can explain Chi Kung in better terms but, first, we must clear all the fallacies in the air.

 

There is no electromagnetic field(EMF) in the body, it is all chemical reactions. The human body is not a coil because only a coil can produce an EMF due to a change in electrical current such as an alternating current(AC). A direct current(DC) will not produce an EMF in a coil. Beside, the body cells only generate chemical-electrical pulses.

Edited June 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

4. Apparantly the bodies electromagnetic field stores metabolic energy in cells, triggers internal changes... enhances the efficiency of the nervous system.... what else?

 

There is no such thing as body electromagnetic field. FYI Any EMF collapses as long as there was no alternating current flow in a media.

 

The body cells do not store any metabolic energy(ATP) neither. The biochemical energy, ATP, will be gone in seconds if it was not used. Thus the generation cycle of the biochemical energy restarts when the muscles contract again.

Edited June 20, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

5. I suspect that there is a strong connection between contracted muscles and tissues and nerves' EM fields... for example, whatever muscles / tissues may be chronically contracted (clenched,) which over a long period of time will have an adverse effect on the EM field in that part of the body. The failing EM field then leads to degenerating tissues, because they can't metabolize energy at an efficient rate.

 

Your notion about that "there is a strong connection between contracted muscles and tissues" is correct but the rest are fallacies. It has no side effects. As a matter of fact, as long the muscles were slightly contracted, there will be energy continuously being generated. In the contrary, the generation of the biochemical energy(ATP) will be ceased as soon the muscles were relaxed.

[ChiDragon]

6. But if we do Qigong, and enhance the bodies EM field, then I think that those chronically clenched muscles/tissues will release, which will lead to a healthier tissue metabolism. Potentially, I think that you can become very incredibly healthy, by maintaining a strong EM field, as the body metabolizes energy at efficient rates, and the general nervous system is improved-- which includes things like awesome neurotansmitting proweress.

 

By the definition of QiGong(Chi Kung), it is the ultimate method of breathing.

 

If we do Qigong, it will increase the amount of oxygen intake. As a result, a greater amount of biochemical energy will be generated since more oxygen was provided to react with the glucose stored in the muscle tissues. That is why a Chi Kung practitioner feel much stronger than before because of the extra energy was being generated. In addition, the body operation is more efficient was because of the extra energy being provided to do all other functions. If there was a lack of oxygen or hypoxia in the blood, then the internal organs will be fighting for oxygen to perform their functions. However, if there was a weak organ, then it may not function efficiently because it was not able to grab as much as oxygen as the other organs. Thus it will be worsen due to suffocation.

[Informer]

Scientific approach, We are simply developing awareness of the autonomous system within our bodies and learning to utilize aspects manually.

[Jetsun]

If you are interested in a more scientific side to practice there are a number of Tibetan Lama's who are working in conjunction with neuroscientists at The Mind and Life Institute http://www.mindandlife.org/ . I have just been reading about Yongey Mingur Rinpoche who has been working a lot with neuroscientists and when they first hooked him up to EEG machines to measure his wellbeing during meditation his scores were so off the charts that the scientists thought the machine was broken

[Brian]

Interesting statement here.

Dao is not restricted by logic, logic is a convention of thought.

At the core of reality you will find paradox.

Science knows this as well.

And good science acknowledges its limitations.

 

I have one foot in the scientific camp and one in the cultivation camp.

If you restrict your experience of Qigong to scientific analysis, you will be disappointed.

Certainly there is the physiological aspect which some like to study.

But there many other aspects that do not lend themselves to the scientific paradigm.

 

In my opinion, science cannot yet approach Qi or Qigong in a meaningful, comprehensive, and satisfactory fashion.

And if it can, I'm not convinced it is or would be helpful.

 

Can you explain your conscious awareness in scientific terms?

Certainly we can discuss the neurological foundation of consciousness and awareness for hours but there is an aspect of consciousness and awareness that defies scientific explanation or analysis.

It is the experiential aspect. And this is at the core of Daoism.

Daoist cultivation (Qigong, Neigong, Taijiquan, and so on), exists to help guide us along this path.

It is not dependent on or amenable to comprehensive scientific analysis, like it or not.

 

Qigong invites us to open and explore the interaction between conscious awareness and physical manifestation.

My experience of Qi is more one of the process or interaction between manifestation and awareness (Jing <-> Qi <-> Shen).

This is an exploration of your inner process and workings from an experiential point of view.

To reduce or equate this to a concept from a different paradigm, such as electromagnetic energy, is inaccurate and misleading.

The scientific paradigm has not yet achieved enough understanding of consciousness and awareness to create an adequate model. It's just a poor approximation that leaves out more than it explains.

 

You can try to find ways to mold the Daoist paradigm (which is inherently experiential) into the scientific paradigm (which is based on a fixed set of conditions, parameters, and observation) and there is certainly overlap and agreement in some areas.

But in doing this you are excluding a core element that is really at the heart of the Daoist paradigm.

 

There is no need to believe anything in Qigong.

Just to practice.

Rational explanations are limited - explain the color red to me so that I see red, making no assumptions.

Qigong lets me see the color, science helps me to describe it but never captures it's essence.

 

 

EM is a force-manifestation, not a frequency - radio, infrared, visible light, ultraviolet, x rays, gamma rays...all EM, all different frequencies. (ascending, in this example.) EM is the most prominent force we deal with, the only stronger force is the Strong Force that holds quarks & atomic nuclei together, but its not "prominent" since it drops off in strength at about .^-14 meters. The weak force is a sort of 'force of pressure' that allows for things like a quark to flip its charge which can lead to things like a proton turning into a neutron (since they only have one flip of 3 quark's difference between the two) but the range is even smaller ^-17 meters - so usually the strong force will manifest first but in special cases things like neutrinos only act via the weak force, but still the interaction is very narrow - but think, with a constant stream of neutrinos flowing unimpeded through you, what if the energies were coherent enough for the lagrangians to line up and more weak interactions take place? hmm And of course, gravity.

 

 

Science is science. So long as you're being scientific and following The Method. Modern science is excellent, but one cannot be so arrogant as to dismiss ancient wisdoms - TCM came about without the aid of "modern science" and was the result of long, concerted, honest observations. So when you design an apparatus to detect a certain frequency and pattern (60Hz AC power can be one consideration,) and you do not detect it, can you honestly say that no frequencies, patterns, potentials are being detected?

 

QFT

[Brian]

Thanks for the definitions Mr JB:-) That shows how much I suck at physics:-)

 

I had weird idea not so long ago that definitions of the same knowledge class shouldn't be used when describing definitions of other knowledge classes. I saw them as existing on different planes.

 

There's a lot of validity in this, -K-, especially with regards to recognizing where a given branch of study runs out of steam (and recognizing, too, that these are ever-changing boundaries...)

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited June 18, 2012 by thetaoiseasy

[Brian]

<snip>

 

I am not saying that science has all the answers, but I think it is the best tool we have to understand and communicate objective truths.

 

I would say that it is "an excellent tool" to help us model simplifications of "reality" (whatever that means) in a way that can be tested to verify whether the model seems consistent & and yields repeatable results. If the model is stable and in agreement with observations, it is often considered to be "true" or "proven" but the concientious scientist understands that subject to change.

 

Someone mentioned classical Netwonian mechanics -- an excellent example. We refer to "Newton's Laws" even though they have been proven to be "false" in that they are limited in applicability. Doesn't stop us from using them on a daily basis, though, because the model is very very good (but wrong...)

 

ChiDragon, the term "EMF" in English refers to "electromotive force" rather than "electromagnetic frequency." While "frequency" implies an oscillation, there is no need for frequency to come into play when talking about EMF. In fact, the entire field of electrostatics is devoted to zero-frequency situations...

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon, the term "EMF" in English refers to "electromotive force" rather than "electromagnetic frequency." While "frequency" implies an oscillation, there is no need for frequency to come into play when talking about EMF. In fact, the entire field of electrostatics is devoted to zero-frequency situations...

 

If you had read it carefully, I believe I had stated as "electromagnetic field(EMF)".

Edited June 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Birch]

"Science" is not a thing, nor a body of knowledge, it's a human (assumed) activity.

 

2cts there.

 

I did enjoy reading Mike's post as it had 'gist-value' for me from practice and personal study. But that's still a bit dangerous IMO, to say yes to an explanation because it makes sense:-)

[Brian]

If you had read it carefully, I believe I had stated as "electromagnetic field(EMF)".

 

Oh! In that case, you were simply wrong!

 

Seriously, EMF is "electromotive force."