Scientific Approach to Practice

[Birch]

Adding the caveat that I am not a scientist (sounds like far too much hard work) I did have a sudden idea (well, not so sudden, I had it a while back due to practice and then it struck again with this thread)...

 

that the 'energy' (or at least its sensation, per the suggestion to Apech on the other thread about measurement) is created between two (I suppose more than two is doable as well) points of attention. It reminded me of the two poles of a battery (and here's where I get mired in the details and will likely misunderstand and potentially misrepresent because the batteries I have are large acid batteries and not complex chemical/hormonal (which I call chemicals, but I'm likely wrong) structures.

 

Anything, anything?

[ChiDragon]

A Seeker...

Like the old saying: There was always a teacher among a company of three.

 

The OP had mentioned "Apparently the bodies electromagnetic field stores metabolic energy in cells"; then I came into the challenge, by reasoning, that the energy was not stored by the electromagnetic field. In the discussion process I had made an erroneous statement that there was no EMF in the human body. Finally, you had come along to present your case about EMF microscopically.

 

Event though it was indirectly related to the subject of interest, but I had learned a great deal by your incredible insight about EMF. Thank you.

 

Despite to the facts that the EMF is a form of energy, however, it still was not the kind of energy that was intended in this thread. It was more of a macroscopic form of energy such as human muscle energy.

 

Again, thank you for your clarification on the EMF....

 

 

@-K-

The large acid batteries are still chemical batteries.

[Informer]

The chi I'm talking about is not some subtle EMF. It leaves visible signs, such as goosebumps and the hairs on my body stand up on end, like the entire body is electrically charged. It seems like something that should be measurable as it is not subtle and has actual physical evidence of the occurrence. It is controllable and comes in waves from the brain to travel seemingly the entire nervous system in waves or steady flow with practice.

 

I am wondering if anyone else has visible evidence such as this when they are channeling chi?

 

I have been narrowing this down to the pituitary gland as a likely culprit considering:

 

While the pituitary gland is known as the 'master' endocrine gland, both of the lobes are under the control of the hypothalamus; the anterior pituitary receives its signals from the parvocellular neurons and the posterior pituitary receives its signals from magnocellular neurons.[2]

 

The pituitary gland consists of two components: the anterior pituitary (or adenohypophysis) and the posterior pituitary (or neurohypophysis), and is functionally linked to the hypothalamus by the pituitary stalk (also named the "infundibular stem", or simply the "infundibulum"). It is from the hypothalamus that hypothalamic tropic factors are released to descend down the pituitary stalk to the pituitary gland where they stimulate the release of pituitary hormones. While the pituitary gland is known as the 'master' endocrine gland, both of the lobes are under the control of the hypothalamus; the anterior pituitary receives its signals from the parvocellular neurons and the posterior pituitary receives its signals from magnocellular neurons.[2]

Anterior pituitary (Adenohypophysis)

Main article: Anterior pituitary

 

The anterior pituitary synthesizes and secretes the following important endocrine hormones:

 

Somatotrophins:

 

Growth hormone (also referred to as 'Human Growth Hormone', 'HGH' or 'GH' or somatotropin), released under influence of hypothalamic Growth Hormone-Releasing Hormone (GHRH); inhibited by hypothalamic Somatostatin

 

Thyrotrophins:

 

Thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH), released under influence of hypothalamic Thyrotropin-Releasing Hormone (TRH)

 

Corticotropins:

 

Adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH), released under influence of hypothalamic Corticotropin-Releasing Hormone (CRH)

Beta-endorphin, released under influence of hypothalamic Corticotropin-Releasing Hormone (CRH)[3]

 

Lactotrophins:

 

Prolactin (PRL), also known as 'Luteotropic' hormone (LTH), whose release is inconsistently stimulated by hypothalamic TRH, oxytocin, vasopressin, vasoactive intestinal peptide, angiotensin II, neuropeptide Y, galanin, substance P, bombesin-like peptides (gastrin-releasing peptide, neuromedin B and C), and neurotensin, and inhibited by hypothalamic dopamine.[4]

 

Gonadotropins:

 

Luteinizing hormone (also referred to as 'Lutropin' or 'LH' or, in males, 'Interstitial Cell-Stimulating Hormone' (ICSH))

Follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), both released under influence of Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone (GnRH)

 

Melanotrophins

 

Melanocyte–stimulating hormones (MSHs) or "intermedins," as these are released by the pars intermedia, which is "the middle part"; adjacent to the posterior pituitary lobe, pars intermedia is a specific part developed from the anterior pituitary lobe.

 

 

These hormones are released from the anterior pituitary under the influence of the hypothalamus. Hypothalamic hormones are secreted to the anterior lobe by way of a special capillary system, called the hypothalamic-hypophysial portal system.

 

The anterior pituitary is divided into anatomical regions known as the pars tuberalis, pars intermedia, and pars distalis. It develops from a depression in the dorsal wall of the pharynx (stomodial part) known as Rathke's pouch.

Posterior pituitary (Neurohypophysis)

Main article: Posterior pituitary

 

The posterior pituitary stores and secretes the following important endocrine hormones:

 

Magnocellular Neurons:

 

Oxytocin, most of which is released from the paraventricular nucleus in the hypothalamus

Antidiuretic hormone (ADH, also known as vasopressin and AVP, arginine vasopressin), the majority of which is released from the supraoptic nucleus in the hypothalamus

 

Oxytocin is one of the few hormones to create a positive feedback loop. For example, uterine contractions stimulate the release of oxytocin from the posterior pituitary, which, in turn, increases uterine contractions. This positive feedback loop continues throughout labor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pituitary_gland

 

And more particularly:

 

Recent studies have begun to investigate oxytocin's role in various behaviors, including orgasm, social recognition, pair bonding, anxiety, and maternal behaviors.[1] For this reason, it is sometimes referred to as the "love hormone." The inability to secrete oxytocin and feel empathy is linked to sociopathy, psychopathy, narcissism[citation needed] and general manipulativeness.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxytocin

 

The hypothesis is that one can become aware of this gland through meditation and learn to use it manually.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Informer

[Apech]

The chi I'm talking about is not some subtle EMF. It leaves visible signs, such as goosebumps and the hairs on my body stand up on end, like the entire body is electrically charged. It seems like something that should be measurable as it is not subtle and has actual physical evidence of the occurrence. It is controllable and comes in waves from the brain to travel seemingly the entire nervous system in waves or steady flow with practice.

 

I am wondering if anyone else has visible evidence such as this when they are channeling chi?

 

I have been narrowing this down to the pituitary gland as a likely culprit considering:

 

 

 

And more particularly:

 

 

 

The hypothesis is that one can become aware of this gland through meditation and learn to use it manually.

 

Yes goosebumps, tingling, heat, cold etc. physical effects from qi I think that's normal.

 

Why do you think it 'comes from the brain" ... maybe the brain is involved as a trigger but I don't see qi as coming in waves from the brain.

[Informer]

Yes goosebumps, tingling, heat, cold etc. physical effects from qi I think that's normal.

 

Why do you think it 'comes from the brain" ... maybe the brain is involved as a trigger but I don't see qi as coming in waves from the brain.

 

 

I think this is more in regards to "pre-heavenly" or "celestial" chi. (like the entire body bliss thing shakti describes) I think that because it feels to begin in the brain. Sometimes the energy or sensation never even leaves the brain. Obviously this is from my subjective observations that are being used to formulate the hypothesis, but the scientific correlations coincide with the locations as described in internal alchemy. Like how the pituitary gland is marked on the MCO diagram as well for instance. It is part of the MCO process and marked as the seat of the soul:

 

 

This is a hypothesis that is testable and can be disproven. (as any good hypothesis should be able to be tested and disproven which is why it is tentative.)

 

The thymus is used and marked as rejuvenation center, and becoming aware and utilizing this could simply be educating T-cells. Which do help the immune system and would provide evidence for being healthier, aside from "qi":

 

The thymus is a specialized organ of the immune system. The thymus "educates" T-lymphocytes (T cells), which are critical cells of the adaptive immune system.

 

Each T cell attacks a foreign substance which it identifies with its receptor. T cells have receptors which are generated by randomly shuffling gene segments. Each T cell attacks a different antigen. T cells that attack the body's own proteins are eliminated in the thymus. Thymic epithelial cells express major proteins from elsewhere in the body, and T cells that respond to those proteins are eliminated through programmed cell death (apoptosis).

 

This hypothesis also has within it the ability to be tested and disproven.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Informer

[Apech]

@informer

 

Ah I see where you are coming from. I sense a slight chicken and egg argument may arise. Say you test qi gong practitioners with an MRI scanner on their brain activity during practice. (I think this has been done for meditators). Then you observe a statistically significant raised activity in certain brain centres. The participants subjectively assess this as qi flow. Ok. So you would still have two hypotheses. 1) there is something called qi which stimulates brain activity (or is linked/triggered by brain activity) or 2 ) people experience the sensation of qi when the brain is stimulated by some mechanism or other.

 

You need to design an experiment which can only be explained if qi exists ... i.e. is real and not a subjective sensation.

 

?

[Informer]

@informer

 

You need to design an experiment which can only be explained if qi exists ... i.e. is real and not a subjective sensation.

 

?

 

Yes, I don't think that is possible though, so I'm sticking to the scientific facts which can be correlated with various phenomena that has been described mystically for so long. If all these phenomena can be correlated to science, then there is no need for "Chi" to be used to explain it.

 

I see "chi" as a similar crutch that religion imposes, an answer to something you don't know or can't explain . . .

 

This is what I've been doing here since before I registered to these forums which is correlating these things to actuality. Hence the disclaimer no one can use these idea's for profits, only to give away. I think it is part of the reason some of the guys here are trying to shut me up, because I give it away free and they want to sell it.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Informer

[Apech]

Yes, I don't think that is possible though, so i'm sticking to the scientific facts which can be correlated with various phenomena that has been described mystically for so long. If all these phenomena can be correlated to science, then there is no need for "Chi" to be used to explain it.

 

I see "chi" as a similar crutch that religion imposes, an answer to something you don't know or can't explain . . .

 

This is what I've been doing here since before I registered to these forums which is correlating things.

 

I see what you are saying but I'm not sure about the word 'crutch'... I'm not particularly religious in the usual sense and yet I use the term qi because of my own awareness. Its a term for something. You might be right in that this term is not well understood and sometimes people use it as a way to stop thinking about what is happening. People should keep thinking and exploring what is happening IMO. One slight problem is that the qi effects if you want to call them that do not seem to operate well if you try to analyse too much. Your mind can inhibit qi as much as you can stimulate it. But aside from that I hope you are able to see into these processes further.

[Informer]

How would you describe what you feel as chi Apech?

 

Could it be you noticing the EMF of the earth and its effect on the blood flowing through your veins? Or higher amounts of oxygen making the blood flow more apparent?

 

Or maybe Oxidative phosphorylation? :

 

Oxidative phosphorylation (or OXPHOS in short) is a metabolic pathway that uses energy released by the oxidation of nutrients to produce adenosine triphosphate (ATP). Although the many forms of life on earth use a range of different nutrients, almost all aerobic organisms carry out oxidative phosphorylation to produce ATP, the molecule that supplies energy to metabolism. This pathway is probably so pervasive because it is a highly efficient way of releasing energy, compared to alternative fermentation processes such as anaerobic glycolysis.

 

During oxidative phosphorylation, electrons are transferred from electron donors to electron acceptors such as oxygen, in redox reactions. These redox reactions release energy, which is used to form ATP. In eukaryotes, these redox reactions are carried out by a series of protein complexes within the cells intermembrane wall mitochondria, whereas, in prokaryotes, these proteins are located in the cells' intermembrane space. These linked sets of proteins are called electron transport chains. In eukaryotes, five main protein complexes are involved, whereas in prokaryotes many different enzymes are present, using a variety of electron donors and acceptors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidative_phosphorylation

Edited June 22, 2012 by Informer

[Apech]

How would you describe what you feel as chi Apech?

 

Could it be you noticing the EMF of the earth and its effect on the blood flowing through your veins? Or higher amounts of oxygen making the blood flow more apparent?

 

Or maybe Oxidative phosphorylation? :

 

 

 

There are a variety of feelings which I associate with qi. Tingling, a bubbly feeling, heat, sometimes cold, shiver, goosebumps, pressure ... as well as mental/emotional changes which correlate.

 

I developed sensitivity to this over a number of years meditating and qi gong.

 

How would I know what the EMF of the earth and my blood feels like? How would I know this was a real effect? I would have to imagine that this is so ... and I avoid these kinds of theories. Same with oxidative phosphorylation ... how would my nervous system pick that up? I don't know .. so how can I answer your questions?

 

Its like people who claim they are tapping into dark energy or black holes or whatever ... how do they know that is what they are doing? they don't but they like to imagine it might be so. If they could demonstrate some kind of causative mechanism between themselves and a black hole I would begin to have some confidence in their assertions ... but until then I think its just the power of imagination.

 

You need to test a number of practitioners and measure changes in metabolism to look for patterns. Then maybe start to develop a theory ... providing you observe some thing consistent.

 

I still think you will face the chicken and egg problem. But maybe that doesn't matter too much.

 

 

[Informer]

I don't see where you see the chicken and egg problem tbh.

 

Deduction could lead to the cause of each phenomena and explain away chi. Then you know what "Chi" is really through physiology and anatomy. Not some mystical thing or crutch. Didn't most of the guys that invented this concept of chi think that the earth was flat and the center of the universe?

Edited June 22, 2012 by Informer

[Apech]

I don't see where you see the chicken and egg problem tbh.

 

Deduction could lead to the cause of each phenomena and explain away chi. Then you know what "Chi" is really through physiology and anatomy. Not some mystical thing or crutch. Didn't most of the guys that invented this concept of chi think that the earth was flat and the center of the universe?

 

Maybe if you don't see - it isn't a problem.

 

Good luck with your research.

 

 

 

 

 

[三江源]

Didn't most of the guys that invented this concept of chi think that the earth was flat and the center of the universe?

 

This is the problem with the world before YouTube.

 

People knew nothing in those days, they had no access to the true sources.

[mYTHmAKER]

Didn't most of the guys that invented this concept of chi think that the earth was flat and the center of the universe?

 

Discovered/ became aware of rather than invented

Edited June 22, 2012 by mYTHmAKER

[joeblast]

I don't see where you see the chicken and egg problem tbh.

 

Deduction could lead to the cause of each phenomena and explain away chi. Then you know what "Chi" is really through physiology and anatomy. Not some mystical thing or crutch. Didn't most of the guys that invented this concept of chi think that the earth was flat and the center of the universe?

Occam can cut both ways in the presence of substantial enough unknowns though, what does the spirit have to say from such a vantage point? I'm sure you regard spirit as a bit more than just a byproduct of physiology, no?

[Informer]

The origination and causation of conscious awareness is unknown to me at this point. I don't have evidence either way.

 

(You would pose such a question )

Edited June 22, 2012 by Informer

[Brian]

The origination and causation of conscious awareness is unknown to me at this point. I don't have evidence either way.

 

(You would pose such a question )

Does it exist?

[Informer]

There is existence.

[unmike]

Provide evidence for qi, consciousness' origins, etc...

 

Step 1: Collagen fibers in the extracellular matrix constitute massive bundles that become chains, linking muscles, tendons, etc. in paths that perfectly mirror the Chinese meridian system, or "pathways through which energy supposedly flows". Collagen, being polar, has a field. When stressed mechanically, the poles are warped, the field is warped. Changing magnetic field constitutes electric activity. Specifically, we're talking about piezoelectricity. Any movement induces microcurrents (the body's materials are sensitive to tiiiiny fluctuations; we're impressively sensitive) that ripple through you.

 

Step 2: Each meridian chain's fibers bind and shape the muscles and, as they pass through the torso, so too do they bind and shape the organs. Specific chains lead to specific organs. The crown of the head is where positively polarized chains come together and cross, while the perineum is where the negatively charged ones pinch together before spreading into their respective legs. The dan tien area is where chains of both polarities weave together at your physical center of gravity.

 

Step 3: The ideogram for qi is a bowl of rice with steam rising from it. If "energy" or EMF or what have you is all they were talking about, what a strange character. A lightning bolt would have been much more informative. Perhaps a fire. Why the steam? Because energy is a part and parcel of the idea, but not the whole shebang. The information it carries is also important.

 

Step 4: Piezoelectric action aside, being polar, the collagen fibers also grab water, which thermally insulates them, so that they basically gel and once stressed, the heat inherent in the fibers is readily dissipated into the water, allowing the fibers to accordion outward without snapping or shattering. They also bind apatite (calcium phosphate) crystals to themselves, held in place by tiny copper pegs. Doping and metamaterials, heyo!

 

Step 5: Water, ordered in such a way literally becomes one big resonator, uniting every part of your body into a single puddle, which quite losslessly transmits light in the visible and UV range. Studies have shown that this fiber optic network extends all the way to the skin, and the traditional acupuncture points are indeed the places the fibers reach surface; the points have dramatically lower electrical resistance to the surrounding tissue.

 

Step 6: DNA zips and unzips, releasing photons in the visible and UV range which, when bounced down the spiral (some bounce out and miss this cohering process) become focused into literal lasers. The lasers eventually leave the spiral, make their way to the water scaffold, and proceed to ripple through the body.

 

Step 7: Holograms, and a veritable symphony of information encoded within light, brother.

 

Step the rest: Bacteria's massive proportion to your own cells within the body, lenses (upward facing and spherical, in your head and in your gut, tiny film bright flash super fast shutter and huge spherical 3D film dim diffuse tiny flashes incredibly long exposure), serotonin, the differing rates of DNA change between "human" and "bacterial" cells within your body, whole number musical ratios, sacred geometry within helices, body-temperature superconductors, and evolution.

 

Step bonus: dimethyltryptamine, pinoline, harmine, and harmaline

 

Edited to correct omissions

Edited July 19, 2012 by unmike

[Birch]

That was awesome. I understood roughly zero of it but I do remember the optical fibre thing from an experience I had/imagined.

What about RNA? I don't know anything about it either but I read that RNA has the 'remote' on the activities of DNA.

Also, the puddle thing reminds me of consciousness seeping back into places that it had locked itself out from. Relationship to somatic memory?

 

Thanks!