Would a Bodhisattva own a dog for protection?

[Vmarco]

Would a Bodhisattva,...someone who is seriously cultivating Heartfulness,...own a dog for protection?

 

What is the psychology of someone who owns a dog for protection?

 

Is owning a dog for protection compatable with Taoism? Would a sincere Taoist own a dog for protection?

 

Is liberation, let alone world peace possible as long as there is a "beware of dog: sign, or a vicious breed in existence (that is not in a zoo).

[chi 2012]

If you live or are surrounded by potentially dangerous people - I would say yes definitely. I just ordered a book called "Spiritual Growth is not what you think" by Doyle Barnett. I was reading through some of the sample online book. He tells a story about his Buddhist friends who had their house burned down during the Santa Barbara fires. One of the things left after the fires was a big Buddha statue. Doyle told the people that their would be a lot of looting after the fires - and offered to store the statue for them at his place. The couple replied that they would rather leave the statue out - because it might "help protect the place".

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Of course !

 

I have a dog for protection. In fact. I have three dogs for protection.

 

I live in a peaceful, quiet and safe area. I am a peaceful, quiet and gentle person. And my dogs reflect me. They are friendly, good natured and happy. Not aggressive in any way, just like me. I live with compassion for all living beings.

 

But five and a half years ago, a psychopath decided she wanted to destroy my life and then kill me. I'd never met her before, but she was a serial stalker, and had driven her previous victims to attempt suicide. Long story short, she tried to murder me, (I survived by a million to one chance), boasted of police protection (turns out her partner was a senior police officer), and for four years terrorised myself, my friends, family and clients. Accused me of rape, murder, child abuse.......on and on. Tore my life to pieces. Eventually, after four years, it all stopped. New police came to the area, everything was exposed, officers were sacked and her campaign halted as though it had never happened.

 

During the whole time, I never strayed from my belief system. I never even thought bad things about her. It was a perfect exercise in compassion. I was faced with the abyss, and I could have faltered and failed, and become like her. But somehow I survived. I almost cracked, but something kept me going. I believe it was meditation, Chi Gong, and my spiritual beliefs.

 

But, practically speaking, I needed to do something sensible, if I could not rely on the police. So I bought some dogs. I'm a dog lover anyway, so it was fine. I already had an elderly spaniel, but she was no use if the worst happened.

 

Over the four years, she sent men to my house three times, to my knowledge. They were sent to attack me, or kill me. The dogs defended me each time, and I was safe. Other things may also have happened during that time, that I am not aware of, but which the dogs thwarted.

 

They aren't aggressive dogs. But any dog will protect its owner, if they detect a threat. I have no doubt I wouldn't be alive now, but for the dogs.

 

We live in a strange world, where I believe we are challenged on a daily basis to justify or develop our belief system. I never doubted compassion was the path, but under such attack, I needed help. It was too much to deal with, on a daily basis, and although I am safe now, I don't doubt my decision was correct.

 

Its an extreme case, but I do think dogs are justifiable.

[chi 2012]

Of course !

 

I have a dog for protection. In fact. I have three dogs for protection.

 

I live in a peaceful, quiet and safe area. I am a peaceful, quiet and gentle person. And my dogs reflect me. They are friendly, good natured and happy. Not aggressive in any way, just like me. I live with compassion for all living beings.

 

But five and a half years ago, a psychopath decided she wanted to destroy my life and then kill me. I'd never met her before, but she was a serial stalker, and had driven her previous victims to attempt suicide. Long story short, she tried to murder me, (I survived by a million to one chance), boasted of police protection (turns out her partner was a senior police officer), and for four years terrorised myself, my friends, family and clients. Accused me of rape, murder, child abuse.......on and on. Tore my life to pieces. Eventually, after four years, it all stopped. New police came to the area, everything was exposed, officers were sacked and her campaign halted as though it had never happened.

 

During the whole time, I never strayed from my belief system. I never even thought bad things about her. It was a perfect exercise in compassion. I was faced with the abyss, and I could have faltered and failed, and become like her. But somehow I survived. I almost cracked, but something kept me going. I believe it was meditation, Chi Gong, and my spiritual beliefs.

 

But, practically speaking, I needed to do something sensible, if I could not rely on the police. So I bought some dogs. I'm a dog lover anyway, so it was fine. I already had an elderly spaniel, but she was no use if the worst happened.

 

Over the four years, she sent men to my house three times, to my knowledge. They were sent to attack me, or kill me. The dogs defended me each time, and I was safe. Other things may also have happened during that time, that I am not aware of, but which the dogs thwarted.

 

They aren't aggressive dogs. But any dog will protect its owner, if they detect a threat. I have no doubt I wouldn't be alive now, but for the dogs.

 

We live in a strange world, where I believe we are challenged on a daily basis to justify or develop our belief system. I never doubted compassion was the path, but under such attack, I needed help. It was too much to deal with, on a daily basis, and although I am safe now, I don't doubt my decision was correct.

 

Its an extreme case, but I do think dogs are justifiable.

I know you can never figure out other people's karma - but when I read that - I kept thinking "What the heck did you do in this or another life to attract that?"

[Jetsun]

I guess it depends on the circumstance, ideally the Bodhisattva doesn't project any strength or put up any barriers at all as that encourages others to do the same which just creates a defensive fear cycle. One of the principle practises of a Bodhisattva is to break this cycle were all in to show people that it is possible to have the courage to completely open up and be vulnerable and for it to be ok and a better way to live. But practically it doesn't always work like that, the Dalai Lama for example when he was in the UK had two Tibetan bodyguards and was given two SAS bodyguards to protect him, he says they are more for show but he has enemies, it is not compassionate to let others hurt you, many people need the barriers set for them to show them what is acceptable because emotionally many people are still children, especially criminals, and it is not compassionate to let children just do what they want it's good for them to learn boundaries so you do them a favour by setting them.

[chi 2012]

Steaven Seagal keeps guns and dogs in his house - and he is a Buddhist.

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

I know you can never figure out other people's karma - but when I read that - I kept thinking "What the heck did you do in this or another life to attract that?"

 

I know !

 

Well, it certainly wasn't in this life. I have never hurt anyone, or done anything bad. More by luck than judgement, in my early years, but from the age of 18 onwards I have given all my intention to live a life of kindness and compassion.So it made it all the worse.

 

But I fully accept I must have brought it to me, although as I have meditated and studied the situation, I realised I was a tool for her karma too. It was so extreme and so awful, and involved so many other people suffering too. So although I was at the centre of it, from my perspective, perhaps she was suffering more than me ?

 

She actually poisoned her own dogs, to try to set me up. Luckily, I was abroad for several weeks at that time. But it seems an enormous amount of karma was being played out, involving many people. My friends and family, and clients, who were terrorised. And a handful of her friends, who were drawn in, and did terrible things under her guidance. I'm sure they would never have done those things, in a million years, without her insistence.

 

So maybe its egocentric of me to consider the 'me' in the whole process.

 

I doubt I'll ever know why. And probably, I don't need to.

[thelerner]

Why not? Better to have a dog growl to warn off a potential attackers then get hurt or hurt someone else. The problem I can see is you're balancing that good against feeding the dog other living beings on a regular basis and that might be a karmic no no to a Bodhisattva.

 

 

I don't think you need a vicious animal for protection. A medium size (or larger) should do. As Jeremiah pointed out, a good dog protects its owner. With proper training there are no vicious breeds (though there are vicious individuals and some breeds require more training then others), our 'dojo' dog was a doberman, very sweet and gentle.

 

If you don't mind its carnivorous nature, a dog can give you protection, love and a lot more.

Edited March 23, 2012 by thelerner

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Why not? Better to have a dog growl to warn off a potential attackers then get hurt or hurt someone else. The problem I can see is you're balancing that good against feeding the dog other living beings on a regular basis and that might be a karmic no no to a Bodhisattva.

 

 

I don't think you need a vicious animal for protection. A medium size (or larger) should do. As Jeremiah pointed out, a good dog protects its owner. With proper training there are no vicious breeds (though there are vicious individuals and some breeds require more training then others), our 'dojo' dog was a doberman, very sweet and gentle.

 

If you don't mind its carnivorous nature, a dog can give you protection, love and a lot more.

 

My three dogs are Doberman too. Sweet natured, sensitive and friendly dogs. They look the part, but they are the friendliest and least aggressive dogs I have ever known. I also have a Welsh Springer Spaniel, and I wouldn't trust her at all. She is aggressive to other dogs, strangers, and terrorises the Dobermen. She was like it when I homed her.

 

I specifically bought Dobermen because they look the part, but are trustworthy and gentle. So they might protect me, without anyone getting hurt.

[Vmarco]

Of course !

 

I have a dog for protection. In fact. I have three dogs for protection.

 

I live in a peaceful, quiet and safe area. I am a peaceful, quiet and gentle person. And my dogs reflect me. They are friendly, good natured and happy. Not aggressive in any way, just like me. I live with compassion for all living beings.

 

 

Does a Taoist or Buddhist who is attached to fear, a genuine Taoist or Buddhist?

 

How can one observe themselves, their Heart, let alone the Tao, through a fear-based psychology? Isn't saying, "I am a peaceful person" while having three dogs for protection, both neurotic and dishonest?

 

Let's break that down a bit. Can a person so fearful of others that they need animal protection ever truly be peaceful,...and second, could a genuinely peaceful person be so inconsiderate of others that they would own dogs for protection?

 

It could be easily argued (among honest people) that owning dogs for protection promotes more fear, not peace,...an environment of more fear.

 

A person who owns a dog for protection could not possibly be at peace,...the dog is merely a medication so that they don't have to confront their fear,...they've tricked themselves by anesthetizing their fear,...which is a barrier to an open heart.

 

How can any Heartful person own a dog for protection? The terror their dog(s) cause others, in itself is the opposite of Heartfulness, peace, and the Tao.

 

V

[Vmarco]

Steaven Seagal keeps guns and dogs in his house - and he is a Buddhist.

 

Keeping guns and dogs in one's house (at all times) is much more considerate than dogs in a yard terrorizing all passers-by, or even worse, those ten-of-thousands of dogs who escape their yards and attack, mame, or kill neighbors.

 

Let's look at the question again,...Would a Bodhisattva own a dog for protection?

 

It doesn't say would "Would a Bodhisattva own a dog."

 

Dogs are animals,..that's why there are leash laws. Even the most trained dog can go rouge,...and destroy the life, emotionally or physically, of another.

 

I could easily imagine a Bodhisattva with a Maltese on her lap,...she is the protector of the dog.

 

Using HH Dalai Lama or those in the public domain as an example is somewhat inappropriate. Besides, by his own admission, HH Dalai Lama is neither a Bodhisattva or enlightened. Nevertheless, I'd love to present the question to him,... Would a Bodhisattva own a dog for protection?

 

V

[Vmarco]

My three dogs are Doberman too. Sweet natured, sensitive and friendly dogs. They look the part, but they are the friendliest and least aggressive dogs I have ever known.

 

I specifically bought Dobermen because they look the part, but are trustworthy and gentle. So they might protect me, without anyone getting hurt.

 

Perhaps these vicious dog breeds "appear" sweet and friendly to you,...but they ARE NOT to others,...and until you realize that Others are yourself, your liberation will be impossible.

 

It's very black and white,...only an inconsiderate person would own a dog bred to be vicious, what you call Look-the-Part.

 

No matter how sweet and friendly vicious breeds "appear" to be,...people own them because of their own fear,...and a person attached to fear cannot uncover the Heart of the Tao.

 

V

[Jetsun]

 

Using HH Dalai Lama or those in the public domain as an example is somewhat inappropriate. Besides, by his own admission, HH Dalai Lama is neither a Bodhisattva or enlightened. Nevertheless, I'd love to present the question to him,... Would a Bodhisattva own a dog for protection?

 

V

 

He is a Bodhisattva, he has spent his whole life living the teaching and serving others, he does often say that he has no great attainment in meditation though but part of being a Bodhisattva is to lower yourself and be humble. But he did say that killing Bin Laden may be a good thing and not necessarily against the Buddhist ideal if it stops him from harming others, so it's not black and white that all violence is always wrong from the Bodhisattva perspective.

[Vmarco]

He is a Bodhisattva, he has spent his whole life living the teaching and serving others, he does often say that he has no great attainment in meditation though but part of being a Bodhisattva is to lower yourself and be humble.

 

He aspires to be a Bodhisattva. A bodhisattva is one who has realized the true nature of compassion,...and I heard HH Dalai Lama say he has not.

 

"Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman commentary on the Dalai Lama's The Four Noble Truth's.

 

"If I have any understanding of compassion..., it all comes from studying the Bodhicharyavatara" HH Dalai Lama

 

"The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is geared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." The Way of the Bodhisattva

 

It is a huge mistake to point to HH Dalai Lama and say, look, he's a Bodhisattva. It is much better to say, look, without the direct realization of emptiness, the compassion of a Bodhisattva is impossible.

 

V

[Protector]

I remember back on plurbis Wan told a story

 

There once was a woman in an abusive relationship and her husband would beat her for no reason. One day she decided to buy a gun. Next time when her husband was beating her, she was reacting differently. Her gun was in her pocket and it was so easy for her to kill him but she was smiling and waiting for a better reason to shoot. Meanwhile, he didn't know about the gun but her reaction scared him and so he left.

 

And so, I don't think there would be a visible dog for protection

[Jetsun]

He aspires to be a Bodhisattva. A bodhisattva is one who has realized the true nature of compassion,...and I heard HH Dalai Lama say he has not.

 

"Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman commentary on the Dalai Lama's The Four Noble Truth's.

 

"If I have any understanding of compassion..., it all comes from studying the Bodhicharyavatara" HH Dalai Lama

 

"The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is geared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." The Way of the Bodhisattva

 

It is a huge mistake to point to HH Dalai Lama and say, look, he's a Bodhisattva. It is much better to say, look, without the direct realization of emptiness, the compassion of a Bodhisattva is impossible.

 

V

 

Why do you think he hasn't realised emptiness? his main meditation practice is resting in emptiness, he is empowered to transmit teachings in the highest forms of Buddhism including Dzogchen which requires resting in emptiness.

 

I have heard him say that he is not enlightened and that he is looking forward to death as he thinks he may be able to become enlightened in the bardo realm, but I have never seen him say he is not a Bodhisattva or that he hasn't realised emptiness, infact I have regularly heard him say the opposite.

[Vmarco]

I remember back on plurbis Wan told a story

 

There once was a woman in an abusive relationship and her husband would beat her for no reason. One day she decided to buy a gun. Next time when her husband was beating her, she was reacting differently. Her gun was in her pocket and it was so easy for her to kill him but she was smiling and waiting for a better reason to shoot. Meanwhile, he didn't know about the gun but her reaction scared him and so he left.

 

And so, I don't think there would be a visible dog for protection

 

Nice story,...it expresses much for this thread.

 

Another point is this,...I once owned a pair of Tibetan Mastiff's (a guardian breed),...had nothing to do with protection,...but a desire to feel and experience the vibration of the Tibetan Mastiff's. They were purchased at 3 months old, and died within 2 months of each other at 12 years old,...all in rural Montana. They were assigned their little area to guard, which consisted of a few dozen chickens,...and never terrorized anyone,...because they were not allowed to guard anywhere outside their area.

 

V

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Does a Taoist or Buddhist who is attached to fear, a genuine Taoist or Buddhist?

 

How can one observe themselves, their Heart, let alone the Tao, through a fear-based psychology? Isn't saying, "I am a peaceful person" while having three dogs for protection, both neurotic and dishonest?

 

Let's break that down a bit. Can a person so fearful of others that they need animal protection ever truly be peaceful,...and second, could a genuinely peaceful person be so inconsiderate of others that they would own dogs for protection?

 

It could be easily argued (among honest people) that owning dogs for protection promotes more fear, not peace,...an environment of more fear.

 

A person who owns a dog for protection could not possibly be at peace,...the dog is merely a medication so that they don't have to confront their fear,...they've tricked themselves by anesthetizing their fear,...which is a barrier to an open heart.

 

How can any Heartful person own a dog for protection? The terror their dog(s) cause others, in itself is the opposite of Heartfulness, peace, and the Tao.

 

V

 

 

I will have to disagree with you. You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Into my life of healing, meditation, compassion and love came someone who made an attempt to murder me. Unprevoked and without reason.

 

Then she sent men to the house, three times, to attack me.

 

The dogs, by the presence, saved my life.

 

I am a martial arts expert too. But I had no wish to use any violence, in any form.

 

The men came after midnight. When I was in bed. The police told me their response time was twenty minutes.

 

The reality is, in a world where a small number of people are damaged and tormented, I would have been killed, despite my decades of love, peace, compassion and kindness.

 

I would rather this had never happened, and I would rather she had not invaded my world. I am not afraid to die. I have greater peace and serenity now than at any point in my life. But it makes no sense to wait, knowing the time will come when my life is ended violently, without trying to stop it. I have worked with my fear, and now I have no fear at all. I have released it all. If death comes right now, I have no fear. I have looked death in the face, and survived. I have lived with the very real and imminent threat of death for four years. Have you ? Do you have any idea what you are talking about ?

 

I have no regrets about having dogs.

 

My dogs cause no terror to anyone. They are loved by everyone they meet. But when men came with violence and intent to commit murder, the dogs kept them away.

 

What is your solution to such a situation ? Because none of my solutions worked.

[Apech]

Steaven Seagal keeps guns and dogs in his house - and he is a Buddhist.

 

He's Under Seige, Hard to Kill and Out for Justice.

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Perhaps these vicious dog breeds "appear" sweet and friendly to you,...but they ARE NOT to others,...and until you realize that Others are yourself, your liberation will be impossible.

 

It's very black and white,...only an inconsiderate person would own a dog bred to be vicious, what you call Look-the-Part.

 

No matter how sweet and friendly vicious breeds "appear" to be,...people own them because of their own fear,...and a person attached to fear cannot uncover the Heart of the Tao.

 

V

 

 

Its very black or white ?

 

Much as I think everyone has compassion in them, the fact is, I survived one murder attempt, and the dogs stopped three others, to my knowledge.

 

Theory is all very well, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

In four years, I showed no anger, and never entered her world. But this was very real. Not in a book. Not theory. But for the dogs, I would be dead.

 

I have no fear at all. But I enjoy my life, and love my healing work. Many people benefit from my work, and I would like to stay around a little longer to continue it.

 

I won't post anymore on this subject, as you clearly have no real idea of the practicalities of what I was dealing with. So we are unlikely to come to any agreement. I hope what happened to me never happens to you. But if it does, I hope you come through it as well as I did, and not like her previous four victims.

[thelerner]

Hmnnn, instead of guessing if a Bodhisattva would own a dog for protection, why don't we do some research, get the facts. Here's my proposal:

 

Vmarco, you present yourself as something of an expert on Bodhisattva's; what they do, how they think, what they'd own.. So, your job is to give me a list of a dozen or so living Bodhisattva's (any you personally know would be a plus) and I'll do the research to see if they own guard dogs or would be okay with the concept. Simple.

Edited March 23, 2012 by thelerner

[rex]

As to what bodhisattvas aren't allowed to do there's a list so they're supposed to do the opposite of the vow's root and secondary downfalls:

 

http://www.bodhicitt...ISATTVAVOWS.htm

 

As usual with lists they're open to interpretation but it's about skillful means and wisdom according to capacity applied to circumstances. The skillful means and wisdom of an ordinary practitioner will be different to that of a master of crazy wisdom.

 

As Jetsun alluded earlier using no deterrence may in some cases be a secondary downfall (number 45) of the bodhisattva vows.

 

45) not acting with whatever means are necessary according to the circumstances to stop someone who is doing harmful action

 

The last two downfalls are saying that, although we must not do anything to harm sentient beings, there are circumstances where we might have to act quite forcefully to stop them harming themselves.

 

When a person or a group is causing themselves or others pain and difficulties, really unlawfully or immorally treating great numbers of sentient beings badly, we should not just accept that, saying we are Buddhists and therefore passive people. We should oppose them skilfully.

 

Geshi Tashi taken from here.

 

[suninmyeyes]

Would a Bodhisattva,...someone who is seriously cultivating Heartfulness,...own a dog for protection?

 

What is the psychology of someone who owns a dog for protection?

 

Is owning a dog for protection compatable with Taoism? Would a sincere Taoist own a dog for protection?

 

Is liberation, let alone world peace possible as long as there is a "beware of dog: sign, or a vicious breed in existence (that is not in a zoo).

Depends on the Bodhisattva and circumstances I guess.

Yes it is compatable with Taoism ,why not ? Taoism is not exclusivly orientated on cultivating pure goodnes alone as little as I understand of it. It does not teach to become an angel , acting appropriatley in given situation may require the whole spectrum of actions. This may require owning a dog for protection at times.

What may seem appropraite and best for one situation may not be such in the other situation of slightly different shade.

I can see where you are driving at , but this kind of ideas are not flexible enough for infinite possibilities of life. Any kind of fixation will prove to be harmfull at some point.

If you would to say 'in most cases' or 'in general' I might have be agreeing with you more, as personally I disagree with keeping any animals as pets whatsoever for myself and definetley disagree with any concept of a ZOO. Than again I can fully understand that everyone is in different circumstances and owning a pet may be just right for them .

What you are saying sort of reminds me of Jesus saying :'If someone slaps you on one cheek , you should turn your head and offer them another'. Forget it , I am not a masochist.

[Seth Ananda]

Vmarco, correct me if I am wrong, but while you are pointing out the fear in others, you keep mentioning dogs terrorizing all that walk by! That sounds like that includes you?

 

Can you be attentive to heartmind when you are so afraid of these dogs?

 

And maybe i should start another thread, called would a Bodhisattva be terrified of a guard dog? Or a being from a Hell realm? Or an essence stealing Naga?

 

Your bigotry against dangerous breeds also seems to verge on a form of Inter-species racism?

 

 

 

Now on the subject, there are many stories of a Buddha or Bodhisattva's presence totally pacifying a wild or dangerous animal, so if you are such an expert on Bodhisattva's why all the negative feelings towards dangerous animals. They are sentient beings as well.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Seth Ananda