Why do so few achieve the results of Taoist Alchemy?

[Taiji Bum]

[TaoTraceur]

thanks for putting this up! sometimes when things start to go differently or I stop achieving the same effects from meditative practices I feel like I should just go back to an "average" person lifestyle... it would sure make so many things easier... but sticking to it is the key! Ill remember this a week from now when I'm feeling awesome again and I'll be glad I didn't just "take a break" for a while

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

It was never supposed to be easy. We ebb and flow, as the tides of the seas and the energy within us. Its natural to vary in our motivation and determination. We don't have to do it all at once.

 

 

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 41

 

The wise student hears of the Tao and practises it diligently.

The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.

The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.

If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is.

 

Hence it is said:

The bright path seems dim;

Going forward seems like retreat;

The easy way seems hard;

The highest Virtue seems empty;

Great purity seems sullied;

A wealth of Virtue seems inadequate;

The strength of Virtue seems frail;

Real Virtue seems unreal;

The perfect square has no corners;

Great talents ripen late;

The highest notes are hard to hear;

The greatest form has no shape.

The Tao is hidden and without name.

The Tao alone nourishes and brings everything to fulfillment.

[therion]

Distraction = enemy #1

 

Then the samsaric mind takes over. Especially now people are more deluded than ever.

 

It's seriously getting out of control.

 

Tip do your meditation first thing in the morning. It will neutralize the samsaric conditioning and you will be more mindful throughout the day.

 

 

As to why so few achieve REAL results?

 

You don't have the resources read money for real training.

 

You need total isolation. To minimize contact with almost everyone especially family.

 

You need the real deal. Techniques, methods, energetic transmission from ancient times.

 

You need to figure out the diet stuff. What is least harmful to eat?

 

Most things you eat cause inflammation in the body.

 

Can you live without food? Have you tried? Google Genesis Sunfire.

 

You need someone who monitors your progress.

 

And no it can't be a clown, has to be a real immortal.

 

You will fuck up without guidance.

 

Hell you can't even be celibate for 4 months by yourself.

 

How the hell you going to handle the stuff at higher levels?

 

My advice pray for guidance with all your heart.

[Aaron]

edited----

 

I would like someone to tell me why so many Taoist's seem to be preoccupied with celibacy? I've been looking in the Tao Teh Ching, Chaung Tzu, and I-Ching and I can't find anything that seems to correspond to celibacy being required or necessary? Is this something attributed to Chinese Folk Lore?

 

Aaron

Edited March 25, 2012 by Twinner

[Jetsun]

I don't think Taoist alchemy is very clear, who out there is giving clear instructions? so I expect people make all sorts of mistakes and wrong turns. I think other paths like Tibetan Buddhism as laid out by Tsongkhapa is far more clear and methodical.

[findley]

Because it's mostly lies.

[Jox]

Because it's mostly lies.

 

Why do you think so...?

 

 

Jox,

Edited March 25, 2012 by Jox

[Aetherous]

Why do so few people achieve the results of Taoist Alchemy which is Union with Tao?

 

Assumptions.

[joeblast]

Thats my 2 cents. Anybody have another reason?

From what I gather there are literally a million chances for you to slip up some detail and have it impact your practice negatively, and a lot of the slipups of whatever sort have significant setback implications...step forward, 3 back if your footing isnt absolutely sure.

 

[RiverSnake]

Cultivation requires intense focus. You must be one pointed.

 

Most people are divided in their attentions and caught up and attached in the 10 thousand things and thus dilute there own power.

 

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited March 26, 2012 by OldGreen

[Mokona]

Diet and excersise are just the same, it takes time and effort and not everyone puts through it. Lifes gets in the way, too. Try being newly married and going back and forth between deployments and field excersises, or just working long hours with a commute. The more time out in the faster the results but time isn't always available. Those are just my barriers, but I practice anyway. A few minutes is better than nothing at all.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Mokona

[KoffeeKommando]

Why? Jim Rohn tells a story about Peters first sermon. Peter preached and some mocked Peter. Those people are mockers. If they heard the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would mock it. After Peters sermon some people were confused. Those people are the confused. If the confused listen to the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would still be confused. Finally some people heard Peter and believed. These are the believers. If a believer hears the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would immediately put it into practice and succeed at it.

 

Thats my 2 cents. Anybody have another reason?

 

There are people "locked in" the "matrix" so to speak.

 

Read here. See ya in a month/year:

http://www.egodeath.com/index.html

 

Here's a bit of it:

http://www.egodeath.com/practmetafreedom.htm

 

"Here is an alcoholic. There is a man who drinks but is not an alcoholic. Therefore we may say legitimately that the first man has "less self-control" than the second. There does exist a subject matter to be explained, some sort of existent "thing" or dynamic, called "self-control".

 

It is not a yes-or-no question of whether there "is such a thing" as 'self-control'. The whole challenge and problem is in properly understanding all that which can be labelled 'self-control'.

 

The real center or psychological motivating force of the free will vs. determinism debate is the question of whether humans are their own first cause. Zen denies that the person is the first cause. It says the Tao or ground of being is the real first cause, and that human decisions, will power, and the homunculus steersman are actually the second cause, a mere conduit of power. The homunculus, or cybernetic helmsman living inside the mind, does have a particular type of power to control the inner thoughts and the external actions. However, this helmsman is a slave of the Tao -- the helmsman can only move his thoughts or his fingers in the direction that the Tao forces him to. Or taking the time axis into account, you could say that your freedom is encased in the rigid block of spacetime, and you can only move your thoughts or fingers in the direction that the Tao has already, eternally, moved them in. The freedom and power of the inner steersman can be free from ordinary physical constraint, while being completely unfree, "metaphysically" or "on the metaphysical level".

 

So yeah:

 

The wise student hears of the Tao and practises it diligently.

The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.

The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.

If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is.

 

These "types" of people exist for a reason. The student laughing at the Tao is a necessary component of "totality". Basically, all this is pre-determined in a way.

 

You will follow the teachings if you will. Only certain people are "destined" to.

 

Hoffman has a page that really spells out the nuts and bolts of this. If I find it I'll post again.

 

Whatever happens is *gonna* happen. Though people that realize this will be able to make "choices" of sorts.

The people that don't take this to heart, and realize something else called the shots (the universe/original consciousness?) are doomed to just wander around like automatons.

 

Don't be mad at them...they are just "the scenery".

Edited March 25, 2012 by KoffeeKommando

[寒月 Hanyue]

Why? Jim Rohn tells a story about Peters first sermon. Peter preached and some mocked Peter. Those people are mockers. If they heard the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would mock it. After Peters sermon some people were confused. Those people are the confused. If the confused listen to the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would still be confused. Finally some people heard Peter and believed. These are the believers. If a believer hears the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would immediately put it into practice and succeed at it.

 

I like this, thank you. I will however make a change;

 

This a story, and one way to tell it.

 

Peter preached and some mocked Peter. Those people are mockers. If they heard the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would mock it.

 

After Peters sermon some people were confused. Those people are the confused. If the confused listen to the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would still be confused.

 

Some people heard Peter were excited by it and believed. These are the believers. If a believer hears the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would belief in its wonder and chase it with enthusiasm, but not understand.

 

A few people 'listened' to Peter and nodded. These people were 'listeners' they'd heard a truth. If someone who can 'listen' hears the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy, they'll immediately put it into practice.

 

One person was present at Peter's sermon and they smiled. This person 'knew', and was able to 'listen' and weigh listening with 'knowing'. If someone who can 'listen' and weight it against 'knowing' hears the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy then there is little else to do.

 

That is why IMO so few attain. Practice is important. Understanding is important. Neither are as important as changes of BEING.

 

Everyone likes to complicate things. look at Zouwang and how people have written of and explained it through the centuries! They think there is a method that was omitted or kept secret and only hinted at by Zhuang Zi. Yet the two words contain it all, instead convuluted practices appear purporting to teach it. It doesn't even make sense

 

Nothing worthwhile is complicated, it isn't easy either. I'm struggling my ass off!

 

Best,

[KoffeeKommando]

Found it:

 

http://www.egodeath.com/DeterminismGnosticism.htm

 

We cannot know, at a given point in time, whether a particular presently freewillist thinker is deterministically predestined to embrace determinism in the near future, later in life, or never. Only the future knows specifically who is destined to embrace determinism before they die. However, determinists know in general that there exists some set of people who are in fact predestined to never embrace determinism -- we simply are unable to identify specifically who these individuals are.

Cheryl wrote:

 

>>In the timeless block-universe determinism model, how is the freewillist (who is, unconsciously, deterministically predetermined) an integral, synergistically determined 'necessity?'

 

Fate, God, or Necessity has dictated that there shall be some number of freewillist-style thinkers frozen into the block universe in which time is a spacelike dimension. When the block universe was created, it was formed in such a way that it included, frozen into it, some people whose worldline or life-thread running through spacetime includes conscious enlightenment revealing the hidden reality of no-free-will; it also included, frozen into it, some people whose mental worldmodel remains the freewillist model all during their entire life.

 

As one interesting alternative group, some people were created and frozen into the block universe such that in the middle of life, they were made to shallowly adopt theoretical philosophical determinism but not to fully experience timeless determinism in the mystic altered state. These are armchair philosophical determinists, who generally derive determinism from the assumption of in-time, linear causality rather than from the mystic-state experience of timelessness and vanishing of the sense of first-order personal controllership power.

 

There is a bridge one must cross to move from original freewillist thinking to determinist thinking, but it is predetermined who is destined to cross this bridge. Therefore there is a wall dividing people into two groups, those destined to cross the bridge and those not; no-free-willist sheep and freewillist goats.

 

"Those the father has given to me know my voice and follow me and recognize me. They shall not be taken away from me. Those who are outside have had their ears plugged, and are not given to me. These are my sheep, who are mine, and who I have gathered and rescued out of the world." Jesus or Apollo the good shepherd here is a symbol of determinism, the kingly leader and mascot of the determinists.

 

"Those who are not mine are given to their father, their king, who is the devil. They are of the devil and belong to the devil; their lot is perdition and eternal apartness from the Father." The followers of the father of lies are those who are *not* timelessly predestined to experience and grasp cosmic determism.

 

Either you are a freewillist, or a fully experienced determinist, and that's that -- a sheep or a goat, saved or lost, pleasing or displeasing when standing before the divine court.

 

The hard, clean division into two groups is somewhat idealist; in reality, grasping and experiencing determinism is a matter of degree and happens in increments -- still, the simple two-category scheme is intellectually coherent and profound, and it's that much easier for an individual to fall well within the determinist camp when scripture is recognized as teaching the clean distinction between freewillist and determinist thinking.

 

Most Gnostic churches of the Modern era are at stage 2. They have moved beyond official, Literalist Christianity, and are striving to pursue Gnostic Christianity instead, but they have not reached mature Gnostic Christianity.

 

It has always been simplistic to form a dualistic, extreme 2-level system that simply and totally demonizes egoic thinking, and completely glorifies transcendent thinking. This extreme polarized value system is then applied to groups of people in a way that is sometimes used by some people in a harmful way. Although egoic thinking is lower, and must be transcended, we must be cautious about what sort of "rejection" of egoic thinking we do and appear to do.

 

We must assist the egoic thinking in reaching its limits and betraying itself. We must not condemn people whose minds are currently limited to the egoic framework of thinking, any more than we'd criticize a baby for being immature. Freewill Gnosticism (where 'freewill' is taken to mean naive freewill) is beginner's Gnosticism. It should be commended for going beyond literalist religion, but should not be prematurely granted as perfection.

 

Good stuff.

[KoffeeKommando]

That is why IMO so few attain. Practice is important. Understanding is important. Neither are as important as changes of BEING.

 

That's just like Hoffman says. We must get the egoic mind to reach it's limits and betray itself.

It's a change of your being at the deepest level. It's good for you.

He posits that entheogens are the quickest way to do this.

Historically, this was true and widely accepted.

 

Everyone likes to complicate things. Yet the two words contain it all, instead convuluted practices appear purporting to teach it. It doesn't even make sense.

 

I shortened your quote on purpose. It sums up many different human approaches to "truth".

 

Get human ego out of the way...and it will be realized!

People make up too much bullshit.

 

This is a big topic. We could spend a month on it...

[KoffeeKommando]

look at Zouwang and how people have written of and explained it through the centuries! They think there is a method that was omitted or kept secret and only hinted at by Zhuang Zi. Yet the two words contain it all, instead convuluted practices appear purporting to teach it.

 

I just did a little research on this. I'm "new" to Taoist/Buddhist "practices".

 

"In Cloudwalking Owl's experience, the full range of meditative "experiences" -- e.g. sleepiness, physical pain, boredom, hallucinations, visions, psychic experiences, energetic phenomena of various sorts -- were all revealed to be impediments to "sitting and forgetting." My own understanding and experience is that it's not the experiences per se but rather our egoic attachment to (or rejection of) them that is the impediment. The ultimate contentment, satisfaction and nondual joy of "one taste" emerges as we fully allow bliss and agony, boredom and rapture, visions and vacuity, to arise and dissolve without interference."

 

 

There we go. Hoffman details how cultures had/have specific ceremonies utilizing ethnogens. The purpose of these ceremonies was to defeat egoic thinking. Basically, to get the human to experience "what's behind the curtain" and lose the old way of thinking:

http://www.egodeath.com/MaximalEntheogenTheoryOfReligion.htm

 

http://www.egodeath.com/WineAndSacredMeals.htm

For the ancient Greeks, it was so natural that all adults are what we'd call "metaphysically and spiritually enlightened", being "enlightened" was such the universal norm, it was merely ordinary, normal adult consciousness. War, politics, sports, and all areas of culture were based on what moderns would label as "metaphysically enlightened consciousness", because the whole culture was based on everyday use of entheogens.

 

http://www.egodeath.com/MysticInitiationOriginChristianity.htm

The lower way of thinking assumes ego, free will, and separate self to be simply real -- more generally and vaguely, it means rejecting the lower way of thinking and embracing a new, higher way of thinking (the no-free-will/no-separate-self framework of thinking).

 

In mythic experiencing, one moves from freedom to slavery to freedom: from 1) ignorant lower assumption of metaphysical freedom to 2) the realization of metaphysical unfreedom during initiation and metanoia (awakening to the hidden fact of imprisonment in the deterministic cosmos), to 3) recovering practical sense of freedom and feeling lifted out from helpless embededness in the deterministic cosmos by the work of the hidden author of all thoughts.

 

 

Many ways to experience the same thing...and to have the same end result.

Some ways are quicker than others.

Just make sure what you get into is the "right" way, not something made up by egoic minded deceivers.

Always test for true humility.

 

Why does some of "modern society" reject these ideas and ceremonial (ethnogenic) experiences? Jesus tells ya:

 

(39) Jesus said, "The pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge (gnosis) and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to. You, however, be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."

 

They don't want you to be fully "experienced". It's the egoic mindset at work.

All glory and fame to them...none for the true individual experience. There is no fame in the individual experience. Just humility, it's own reward.

Endless distractions and convoluted practices designed to keep you from finding the truth.

Edited March 25, 2012 by KoffeeKommando

[Taiji Bum]

I don't think Taoist alchemy is very clear, who out there is giving clear instructions? so I expect people make all sorts of mistakes and wrong turns. I think other paths like Tibetan Buddhism as laid out by Tsongkhapa is far more clear and methodical.

 

There are a ton of very detail resources out there! This is mine....

 

THE TAOIST ALCHEMY OF 100 DAYS BUILDING THE FOUNDATION

 

MY PREPARATION

 

Diet- I ate no meat but I ate eggs, fish and dairy.

 

Meditation- Emptiness 4 times a day 20min to 1hr until in July I was doing 8-12 hours of meditation a day which included several hours of taiji also.

 

The Firing Process- After having gathered enough qi in the lower dan tien through a good diet, taiji practice and meditation you need to "fire" it so it moves upwards and transforms into shen. Normally the firing process happens naturally if you have enough desire or if your very young or going through puberty. If your older you will need an outside agent and this has been one of the greatest secrets of alchemy in the east and west. Three things fire the qi and that is pain which means ascetic practices such as self-flagellation, sexual arousal without ejaculation such as is found in Tantra and fasting. Any will work but use sexual stimulation only on days you do the breathwork, fasting should be extreme but don't kill yourself and if your going to use pain then do it every day.

 

Breathwork- Bone breathing with closed eyes lasting 20 minutes once a day and I did this several times a week but not every day. This is done by- inhale 10 times into your belly and focus on pulling qi into your belly on each inhale and storing it on the exhale. Then with an inhale draw the qi from your dan tien to the bones of your left hand. Exhale and visualized compacting the qi all the way into the marrow. Do this same routine in all your bones starting next with your left forearm, upper arm, right hand, right forearm, right upper arm, left foot, left lower leg, left upper leg, right foot, left lower leg, left upper leg, pelvic bone, collar bone, spine, jaw bone and lastly cranium. Then 10 more deep breaths drawing qi into your dan tien and on both the inhale and exhale draw the qi up your spine and into your head to lead it to the pineal gland at the center of the brain. After the last ten breaths you should hold your focus on your pineal with your attention and it should feel like you are "reverse gazing".

 

My 100 Days Start:

24April1994 (Full Moon)

Practiced the firing and then I practiced bone breathing with breathing energy up my spine and then in meditation and had a powerful vision of interior light. Every time my perineum would begin to pump furiously the interior light would blaze forth before my inner vision.

 

08June1994 (New Moon)

I did the firing process and then the bone breathing. While breathing energy up my spine, the perineum began pumping with pressure/pain was felt in the third eye area. My testicles were also in pain. I was using forced will power to move the energy up the spine. I tried to relax but couldn't. I tried to leave my body several times unsuccessfully. Then I seemed to come out of my forehead. It was like I was like in a little body a couple of inches tall. I could only get out of my forehead up to my waist.

 

100 Days End:

27July1994

It was incredible. My normal vision was replaced with a new vision. Instead of seeing with my fleshly eyes, I became aware I was seeing from my spiritual center, my soul. This spiritual center within me was the same spiritual center within all things. This "Unity" filled me with awe and peace. I also seemed to be eternally caught up in the now. I wasn't thinking or feeling anymore. I was just being.

 

Looking at the trees did not reveal leaves and bark. I saw an explosion of light. It began where the seed sprouted originally. The explosions then flowed upwards and downwards. I saw into the earth. It was a golden hued transparency. The trees were like flowing golden fountains of living light that were continually being born anew every moment. It seemed purely accidental that water and dirt were carried along with the exploding fiery-light. It did not diminish the glory of it in any way though. I thought modern science was absurd because it studies the accidental shadow and not the actual substance.

 

I knew everything from the beginning of time. I saw it all. At the same time I was so peace filled that I did not desire to know anything in particular. With this expanded perspective human understanding of everything, including metaphysics seemed worthless. All the books I had read paled miserably in comparison to this. All the spiritual anguish I had been experiencing for the past few weeks vanished. I felt desireless, completely free and at peace with all. It was as if I woke up and was seeing reality for the first time. I was released from this universe of light after a few minutes.

[dwai]

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I let the Tao guide my alchemical progress. I dont know how well im doing and frankly couldnt care less if i was dead yesterday!

 

I think that's probably a better accomplishment anyways, not worrying