If you're spirituality is not rational, how do you keep from getting scammed?

[findley]

I thought I would follow up on the post about scientific development--

 

for the fellows who believe that rationality is not important in your spiritual practice, how do you keep from getting scammed by all the fakes, liars, cheats out there who want to make money off of your devotion?

 

For example, Micheal Winn. He is a liar and a fraud. He speaks to atlanteans. But he has made money selling his snake-oil to people like... a younger version of myself. I remember an administrator here was once selling I Ching readings through the forum. This is a desipicable use of the forum.

 

How do you protect yourselves? ...or are you all simply going to allow yourselves to be cheated, and your spirituality stunted by these awful, (or at least deluded,) people?

 

I remember I was actually banned from this forum for denouncing people who claimed to do miracles. and there were alot of them. (In fact they were the moderators, too, so they banned me.)

[Birch]

I made mistakes and learned from them (a bit).

Still, the main person I've had to watch out for (and end up trusting) is? You got it :-)

Here, have this free lunch...

[Jetsun]

Some say all that matters is that you follow your heart but I think trusting your heart and gut as well as taking into account your mind is probably the best way to go about things. The balance between your lower brain and upper brain is your heart so that is probably where you will find the most balanced answers, yet taking all into account all three is probably best, but not many can achieve such balance.

[Owledge]

But he has made money selling his snake-oil to people

Snake-oil is an old Chinese remedy for arthritis and similar ailments. I don't see what's despicable about selling it.

 

Watch out that you don't become a Don Quixote.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Owledge

[Protector]

"I made a mistake by learning something"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[zanshin]

It's also not material, so don't buy spirituality.

 

Maybe I am missing out on great teachers and practices, occasionally I will buy a book or try something new. Have basically come to conclusion all I really need is nature, meditation and qigong, but what I want from spirituality is to be calm, healthy and feel connected to things. Not trying to gain superpowers or become enlightened, partly because I don't have time to be that dedicated to practice, and partly because I suspect ti's a scam.

[baiqi]

That is a good question.

 

I think rationality is something usefull for that kind of problem (and others...). The "thinking mind" can be a great tool. The only problem is we tend to use it too much. (Or rather, we are used by it)

 

Actually, lots of "very rational people" have been scammed! Including scientists and so on. Why? Because they feel- and they are right- that there is something behind "all that". But no one has give them the understanding of it.

 

The Spirit (whatever you call it) is not rational, it is much above this. We are linked to it by what is called intuition, which is meta-logical. If we could always do what it tells us, there would be no problem. But very few of us can.

 

So, when you are searching for a spiritual guidance, you can use your rational mind. (And see the actings of a "spiritual teacher": are they ethical for you?)

However, in time, you will need it less and less.

[doc benway]

I thought I would follow up on the post about scientific development--

 

for the fellows who believe that rationality is not important in your spiritual practice, how do you keep from getting scammed by all the fakes, liars, cheats out there who want to make money off of your devotion?

 

Great question.

I'll be happy to add some thoughts.

 

The spiritual community is as full of scammers and BS artists as other communities.

Quite possibly more so because the subject matter is, for the most part, completely subjective and gratuitous.

And how many of us would agree on who is real and who is fake?

And is anyone all real or all fake?

I think that every "guru" or system is unique. Some all crap, some absolutely priceless.

Most fall somewhere in between.

 

It's a difficult area to navigate.

And I doubt that many of us feel that we leave rationality out of it.

Certain aspects of the process require rational decision making -

Is this practice helping me in some way?

Is the "guru" practicing what he preaches?

Does this person act in a way that supports or misleads those around him/her?

Is the cost reasonable?

Do I know others who have benefited in some measurable way?

Based on my own background and conditioning, does this make sense for me at this point in my life?

 

And it's very tough to measure the benefits .

Here are a few that I consider good indicators -

- I feel less stressed

- My health has improved

- My feeling of well being and tranquility are enhanced

- I feel more kindness and civility to those around me and to myself

- I smile and laugh more

- I feel OK with my life, I don't fight against the world as much, I appreciate and enjoy it more

- I'm beginning to see that patterns of behavior in my life that normally go on without my conscious awareness

- I'm beginning to question choices that I may have made in the past without even thinking about it

 

Rationality is important in evaluating methods and progress just as it's important in most aspects of our lives.

So the question is, what is the role of the rational mind in the actual practices themselves?

 

Does "understanding" the physiological basis of Taiji, Qigong, and meditation actually enhance the practice itself?

While I don't deny that subjecting these methods to rational scrutiny has value, the answer is basically no, IMO.

You can have a complete and thorough understanding of how and why Qigong helps your body and if you are not practicing regularly, you will derive no benefit. And if you have absolutely no intellectual understanding of the practice and you do the practice correctly and regularly, the benefit is not diminished at all. And you can be the world's foremost authority and scholar on Taijiquan and a rank beginner could knock you on your ass if you do not put in the hours, months, years of training.

Basically, I see the color red whether or not I understand the neurological and physiological processes that are involved in that process. Red is no more red today than it was in the 12th century simply because we "understand" the process.

 

The rational mind is necessary to help us choose the "right" method or teacher and also to help us know when we've made the wrong choice or have out-grown the teacher or the method. But that is not to be confused with the fact that these experiential practices, especially the more meditative techniques, do not benefit from engaging the rational process of thought. In fact, their very purpose is to help us discover whether or not there is anything that is beyond the limited scope of our thought.

[baiqi]

Oh, and I forgot something else: being too rational can be a good way to protect one's ego.

 

Many overly rational people I know are kinda:" oh we are far superior from these superstitous folks". But some superstitious (and I mean people actually believing the earth is flat...) people are way happier!

 

Actually, when I see the world today, I can see that the rational mind did at least as much damage as narrow religious fanatism. And when you have a combination of both...

[寒月 Hanyue]

I would say this issue has been around for A LONG TIME, and probably will be around for some time to come. Everyone has to find their answer.

 

I've always liked;

 

"The Kālāma Sutta is also used for advocating prudence by the use of sound logical reasoning arguments and the dialectic principles for inquiries in the practice that relates to the discipline of seeking truth, wisdom and knowledge whether it is religious or not. In short, the Kālāma Sutta is opposed to blind faith, dogmatism and belief spawned from specious reasoning." "Kalama Sutta: To the Kalamas" translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

 

Do not simply believe what you hear just because you have heard it for a long time.

Do no follow tradition blindly merely because it has been practiced that way for many generations.

Do not be quick to listen to rumors.

Do not confirm anything just because it agrees with your scriptures.

Do not foolishly make assumptions.

Do not abruptly draw conclusions by what you see and hear.

Do not be fooled by outward appearances.

Do not hold on tightly to any view or idea just because you are comfortable with it.

Do not accept as fact anything that you yourself find to be illogical.

Do not be convinced of anything out of respect and deference to your spiritual teachers.

 

You should go beyond opinion and belief. You can rightly reject anything which when accepted, practiced and perfected leads to more aversion, more craving and more delusion. They are not beneficial and are to be avoided.

 

Conversely, you can rightly accept anything which when accepted and practiced leads to unconditional love, contentment and wisdom. These things allow you time and space to develop a happy and peaceful mind.

 

This should be your criteria on what is and what is not the truth; on what should be and what should not be the spiritual practice.

 

Shakyamuni Buddha.

 

But I suppose even monkeys fall outta trees

[Friend]

I thought I would follow up on the post about scientific development--

 

for the fellows who believe that rationality is not important in your spiritual practice, how do you keep from getting scammed by all the fakes, liars, cheats out there who want to make money off of your devotion?

 

How do you protect yourselves? ...or are you all simply going to allow yourselves to be cheated, and your spirituality stunted by these awful, (or at least deluded,) people?

 

 

No protection!

Eat or die!

Having the heart of a gambler when one choose things, decide by Analyse like an detective and gather information, using 6 Sense to feel it out. One has in mind its "the esoterics" and it is an dangerous Area as the Fantasy and the Fantastic are on the blade of a knife. I follow "to find the stuff which gaves the greatest Placebo and if not then it was a good decision".

 

So I get not so angry by suprise when I get cheated as I get cheated in many ways:

One was the amount of money, two the time that is invested in real teachings was extended. Second all was real but there was not energetics given by the teacher and it was all do it yourself. The other stuff is watered down or defect or shareware version for outsiders. I also by books from scammers know that they have use stuff from book without giving credit for the source and change a bit of text - but the stuff is authentic, not high level, one of these books teached me that one of my teachers make the stuff he teach become long stretched to earn money and keep the students on a minimum level, authentic but only minimum and this little trick gave me such boost in exercise.

 

And you see you learn Qigong and Neikung when it does what it should do as we heared the harvest is rich, prolong long life, greater health than the sportsfolk, mobility in age, rehabilitation from accidents, healing of others, know who oneself is, reverting hair growth and colour, some people are said to walk on gras jump on running vans and gain control to eat those toxic alchemical pills,

shock others with powers or greater get enlightend, become one with Tao, some sort of immortal=> fairy tales for normal people but what if you become a fairy then you would live this things. The motivation is : What is when someone can teach you become a fairy? Is it not enough to be living, work everyday and consume and just die at the end of life? Whatever you do is seem almost the same, the tic toc, the mundane, the parrots of the law, the robots. Some people start to ask is there not something else?

 

If the gain is great enough the risk on is willing to raise.

 

So someone like me is warned, responsibility if one want to test something new

it is then high curiosity level and the greed or /and the fear to the miss something important chance to live a wonder.

 

Surely Findley you should give critism but the should base of facts.

If you not use proof from other sources and tell them they are liars then the credibility is as worse as someone who is like a mimosa reacts on a bit louder voice

is like slapping the face of a Drama Queen.

 

As well the only guideline is ones own training. One build a base of knowledge by using the teaching, finding and information and use them in own real time training to test the "value". You need to own something you can compare with. Buying a sword

when you have never use a sword is highly risky. But owning a copper one and even it is a bit higher and only crappy steel then you can compare. Because of your skill you can test the sword.

 

There is lot of free stuff. Sitting full lotus you can sit 4 hours test Wang Liping as you have best foundation. Test the teacher who said you sit 4 hours, let him "show" you that he can do this what he preach.

You have stand 2 hours horse stance, somebody want teach kungfu? Push him.

Gongfu and poor stance-no- at least he would he should evade it, since you still can save face for him saying that you have suprised him with good foundation.

(You can send Seth Ananda from this forum if you not have trained.)

Someone teach you peace, enlightment? Harass him, mock him, call him a liar, critizize him, correct him. Do he act so that you stop this behaviour peacefull?

Immortality? Do he move good? Has he eyes like dagger?

Health Qigong? Ill and bad sight? Forget it.

 

(Here is an example taken by one of my healer friends from the esoteric, policeofficer

and he does escalation training with a partner and in front of the students there was a life example as real daily life situation cames as the musicina came and want to tune the piano, the partner starts to argue and spat with the musician for an half hour and my healer friends interfere then diplomatic allowed it with a extrem calm behaviour,5 minutes tuning and it was over. The students were then eager to learn from my healer friend as they get learned previous to stay calm from the course saying they show them a real example how it is done AND learned how it is not done)

 

Someone teach you Tenaga Dalam ask one of the police man to attack him with the dog.

(not recommended either when it works and when it not works.)

He heals? Go to the hospital and ask for cancer patient and tell them a Master need to state a example and a chance for cure as he has nothing to loose.

 

Watch out that you don't become a Don Quixote.

 

Well you are lucky to have Sancho Panza then and nice people who bring you back to your village when failed again.

Again this roman was about the loss of the aristocats( against the technical uprise.

[64changes]

I suspect most, if not all of us, already have all we need.

Its just a matter of tuning in to listen whats there.

And as always, "Buyer Beware"

[Mokona]

I thought I would follow up on the post about scientific development--

 

for the fellows who believe that rationality is not important in your spiritual practice, how do you keep from getting scammed by all the fakes, liars, cheats out there who want to make money off of your devotion?

 

For example, Micheal Winn. He is a liar and a fraud. He speaks to atlanteans. But he has made money selling his snake-oil to people like... a younger version of myself. I remember an administrator here was once selling I Ching readings through the forum. This is a desipicable use of the forum.

 

How do you protect yourselves? ...or are you all simply going to allow yourselves to be cheated, and your spirituality stunted by these awful, (or at least deluded,) people?I remember I was actually banned from this forum for denouncing people who claimed to do miracles. and there were alot of them. (In fact they were the moderators, too, so they banned me.)

 

Hear, hear - step forward if you've been cheated. This could be a thread on the liars and cheats we've run into. Buyer beware, "so and so" is a charlaton.

 

Funnily enough, some online practices are put up by charlatons, but steal real material to give themselves crediblity.

[laughingblade]

for the fellows who believe that rationality is not important in your spiritual practice, how do you keep from getting scammed by all the fakes, liars, cheats out there who want to make money off of your devotion?

 

Aren't you being rather black and white here? Surely nobody runs blindly into anything without a little discrimination, a little research, before they invest time or money? Do you?

 

For example, Micheal Winn. He is a liar and a fraud. He speaks to atlanteans. But he has made money selling his snake-oil to people like... a younger version of myself. I remember an administrator here was once selling I Ching readings through the forum. This is a desipicable use of the forum.

 

I've learned an enormous amount from teachers who I've decided not to stick with after a short while. There's one at the moment where I haven't (yet) had the results indicated, but that actually makes me more interested to grok it. I get to take responsibility for my practise, my attitudes, and the experience I take away. Calling it a 'mistake' or blaming the teacher seems to me rather limiting, and says more about the student than it does about the practise or the teacher.

 

How do you protect yourselves? ...or are you all simply going to allow yourselves to be cheated, and your spirituality stunted by these awful, (or at least deluded,) people?

 

Some people retreat into an intellectual redoubt where experience cannot enter. I protect myself by applying rationality up to a point, but then I take a leap and find out for myself. Sometimes you just have to get your feet wet.

 

I remember I was actually banned from this forum for denouncing people who claimed to do miracles. and there were alot of them. (In fact they were the moderators, too, so they banned me.)

 

Maybe they can do miracles. Personally while I don't know I'll retain an interested scepticism. Wouldn't it be cool if they could do miracles?!

 

What did you get from being banned? How did you use the time away?

 

Rich

[findley]

I banned for bad-mouthing frauds and liars. I think the last incident, I was upset that someone was spreading a gross misinterpretation of The Secret of the Golden Flower. Apparantly they were building a cult around their ignorance.

 

hrm... I am mostly worried about young people wondering these forums, like I did when I was a teenager. I wasted so much time following dead-end allies, such as mantak chia and micheal winn. Their fusion of the 5 elements, for example. Even the microcosmic orbit. It was years of dedicated practice to absolute bullshit. If I had been practicing kunlun or just zhan zhuang instead, I would have been a grandmaster, I was so dedicated. I practiced all day long. it was all I did. (ps so fuck you two very much, winn and chia.) Also, obsessing about semen retention was a big deal for me. At 18, I just could not keep myself from jerking off every 1-2 weeks, at which point I had to 'start over'. Semen retention was a big fad which, now I think, was a big lie that really had a negative impact on my 'spiritual' development.

 

If only someone like me had been around to assure my younger self that masturbating on a regular basis was ok

 

so I think that this 'rationalist' element is important to have on a forum like this.

[baiqi]

Findley you did not waste your time completly!

 

First you learnt self-discipline. It is extremly hard for people to do zhan zhuang for hours (or less!), for example, but you probably have the ability to do that.

 

Maybe you needed something "extraordinary" like unicorns supra-mental perception experiences and such to make you want to practise. After a while, you lost your illusions and went back to reality. So it's ok.

 

So you should thank Chia and Winn instead of fucking them? (Well, your choice anyway)

 

I had the same kind of beginning, it took me time to realise that there was nothing extraordinary in the Daoist way. Daily existence IS extraordinary, we just fail to see it.

 

Don't worry about teenagers wandering on such forums. I think most people here are OK, and if there are some cultish ones, there are skeptics as well (just like you) so in the end it is all balanced.

 

If I had told you that the fusion of the 5 elements was BS at the time, you just would not have believed it. Maybe you would have been very angry against me.

[Owledge]

[Trunk]

~~~ TheTaoBums Moderation Team ~~~

 

I want to make this clear to the community, as I'm sure it is for most of you already. (Please review the relevant pinned No Insults Rule.)

 

One of the main (if not THE main) reasons for the existence of TTBs is to provide a level and open playing field for honest discussion. That includes the ability to voice strong disagreements, frank observations about an approach working/not working/even causing harm if that's the case, all to whatever degree. All of this, honest discussion towards clarification of reality and principle, is encouraged. Really important.

 

What is against the rules is when speech turns into insult and personal attack.

 

This means that if you're really pissed about this or that school/method/etc that you have to refine your thoughts & emotions enough to make your speech (your posts here) clarifying and constructive - and not let speech devolve into unproductive base insult.

 

Sometimes it's just a difference of how you say something, even if the gist is the same. It makes a big difference, and comes down to the essential of contributing quality to a conversation, clarifying not mud-slinging.

 

- Trunk

 

p.s.

We're pretty lenient. Most of this thread is a non-issue, but a warning has gone out re: an f laden phrase.

 

~~~ Mod Squad out ~~~

[thelerner]

I've learned from Michael Winn. He's out there, but he's met, trained and hosted masters, and he's gone to some deep places. He ate with us, answered questions honestly.

 

I did an IChing reading with Stigweard where you ask a question and he gives an in-depth answer via I Ching. I don't know about the mystics of it, but the answers are a bit of Rorschach test. They point you in directions and help you think of solutions in elemental terms. It was worthwhile and certainly not expensive.

 

On the deeper end is Max of Kunlun fame. I did his seminar and I respect him as a teacher of experience and considerable juice. Do I believe his far out stories. Ummn, well I file 'em into my Esoteric, Eccentric Unknown file. Same as the stories about UFO's, same as the stories about Atlantis. I like Bardons work, but at the upper upper levels you're calling on air sprites and earth spirits etc., Rawn Clark wrote about a group of his that meets up in Dreamtime. I neither believe or disbelieve, its simply outside of my personal experience.

 

Most of the best teachers and deepest practitioners have some pretty strange, out there, beliefs. As long as they're cool, and don't expect me to share there beliefs, then I don't care.. big world, lots of beliefs. Matter of fact if you don't believe some freaky unearthly thing, I wonder if you are a heavy hitter.

 

As long as they can function well in the world, Crazy can be very good. Crazy looks at the world in different ways; it brings the energy and dedication that few 'sane' people could muster. Within most teacher's crazy there is a truth, maybe not a literal one, but some solid allegory that if I believed in it, I'll be a better practitioner.

 

How do I keep from getting scammed? I look for fair value. In my eyes a few hundred dollars for a multi day seminar is understandable. Over that and I get suspicious, I don't like guru types who profess they have the only way, don't take questions, put on airs or try to sell me lots of extras. Again, teachers have a right to earn a living. Still I've found most Esoteric teachers promise more then they deliver; not because they're lying, but because they have had some special students go 'very, very far', the potential is there, but most won't.

 

I don't expect enlightenment from a seminar, I expect to learn something I can use in my life, a technique or insight.

 

Frankly the 'advertising' on Kunlun raised my skepticism, but enough people on the board whom I respect went to the seminar and were blown away. Just one life, had to try it. It wasn't that much money and I could use the vacation and meeting up with a couple other bums was a nice bonus. Similarly even if I don't believe in the IChing, astrology, palm reading, tea leaves etc., if a person comes recommended by a friend and its not expensive, I'll try it. Put my beliefs aside, silence my inner skeptic and listen intently.

 

We'll never learn if we don't stretch our minds, challenge our beliefs and try something new.

Edited March 27, 2012 by thelerner

[RiverSnake]

I have 3 Iron Rules that i follow when looking at teachers.

 

1. Logical Mind: Do my research, ask questions, ask other peoples experiences of the teacher. Never disbelieve and never believe anything...simply remain open to possibility...but at the same time contemplate deeply what the teacher is saying and its implications.

 

2. Intuition: Value and follow my own intuitive judgement. What kind of vibe do i get from the instructors picture. Ask myself questions as to whether i feel this is the right path and see what answer i get back.

 

3. Ego: If i sense that a teacher is full of his own ego and not living up to the standards he preaches then i immediately walk away. It doesn't matter to me if he or she is predicting the future, levitating or shooting fireballs out of his hands. If there still high on their own bull-shit and looking for an ego trip i am gone. In my view a Teacher should never talk shit about other Traditions or instructors if they do it is a big turn off for me.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited March 27, 2012 by OldGreen

[Kempomaster]

I have copied the the info below to continue the discussion with Findley. As Findley challenged that the original person posting was either lying or delusional; In addition, Findley challenged that a study by Grad students at a University should be done. I presented that - that has been done and the results were exceptional. Rather than acknowledge that info - Findley - brushed it aside and started a new thread and in it has started throwing nasty remarks at his previous teachers.

 

Well Findley - perhaps it's time to look in the mirror. As a teacher - I generally figure out pretty quickly when I have a student with an attitude problem. When this happens I have a variety of options available -- typically the student will leave and seek info elsewhere. Many teachers will not share important information with students that have such attitude problems. When this sour attitude is expressed than the student will forever be on the outside of receiving any valuable information. Are there individuals out there that are offering something that may not be as effective as another system - Yes! Are there teachers that are not as good as others - Yes! This happens in all areas of life.

 

However, for you to start character assination and throw the remarks out that you have made are totally uncalled for and totally disrespectful.

 

There are many extremely talented Qigong teachers available and most are not lyers, misfits, or whatever else you wish to call them.

 

Show some respect, open your heart to compassion, and have genuine interest in others and an outstanding teacher may take you in -- be disrespectful and you will get what you deserve.

 

Rainbow-- why do I think that the original poster is either lying or deluded? --because 'distance healing' is impossible. It only works for 'eager' people.

 

Well let's start with this quote. The above statement is entirely untrue!

 

Anyone that works with Medical Qigong or Taoist Healing understand that a large percentage of patients that are treated successfully are not just "eager people". In otherwords - the person quoted seems to be suggesting that they are wanting something to work for their problem that we then have a placebo effect. Which would be a result based on the recipients anticipated effect of the treatment. The reason I refer to "those of us that treat" - oftentimes we encounter non-believers, etc that their eatablished belief system would usually prevent them from believing that a person can project Qi and/or be able to heal them without ever laying a finger on them. As a matter of fact, most of those people that we treat have the belief that Qi can not heal them - but with a close to 100% success rate I would suggest the system I am involved in is above a placebo effect or results based on "eager people"

 

1st - I have been employed in the Pharmaceutical industry for over 23 years. I have been taught how to dissect a study. What is a proper study, double-blind, placebo controlled etc etc -- Sounds great. I ahve also had the benefit of talking with many Medical Doctors that are heavily involved in Academics and they have shared their insights with me regarding studies involved in many medicines and treatments. It is almost impossible to eliminate researcher bias. Typically - a person believes in an outcome or they don't -- There usually aren't individuals involved in the study that don't have an opinion. Ask any Medical Doctor and they will tell that any study can be put together to uncover what a researcher wants it to uncover. They can either select the right patients or exclude the right patients. You say - thats why we want people involved that are independant. Good luck -- a large study in Womens Health was published in the last 10 years - that affected how people look at a particular category of medicine. A competing company was out touting the results weeks before the results were released. How is that possible -- somehow their company was chosen to run the statistics. Total Bias!

 

The second problem with scientific studies are the length of time they take to put together, agreed upon treatments, placebo, the number of patients invloved, the recruitment of patients etc. Not to mention the Cost.

 

All that being said - I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN A SCIENTIFIC STUDY INVOLVING MEDICAL QIGONG for ATHLETES. AND IT WAS DONE AND PUBLISHED AT A UNIVERSITY in INDIANA. and YES IT WAS DONE by GRADUATE STUDENTS -FOR " RESEARCH METHODS of PHYSICAL EDUCATION" This study recruited 20 patients that each had pain issues and part of the recruitment reuired that the patients had seen a Medical Doctor and had received a primary diagnosis related to their condition. The patients also were divided into two groups -- either they had a belief in Alternative Medicine - ie Medical Qigong, or they did not believe in Alternative Medicine ie Medical Qigong. They all had used a questionaire prior to treatment to stated their beliefs/non-beliefs as well as a standardized pain rating scale. All patients signed Medical releases agreeing to treatments and in this case they agreed to have up to 3 treatments. All patients received follow-up - post-treatment and the additional follow-up at 1, 2, and 3 months following treatment.

 

I was the Medical Qigong Practitioner that was treating. We did not have a Placebo Practitioner as the time restraints of a 6 month class did not allow us to recruit enough additional patients and to have a placebo Practitioner - rather we felt that dividing the patients into the groups of believers and non-believers would be sufficient for the class.

 

Results: ALL Patients reported improvement on their self-rated pain scale compared to pre-treatment. Most patients felt that their problem had been totally eliminated and these results were regardless of Pre-belief coming into the trial. The results were analyzed statistically and the results were highly statistically significant using a 95% confidence interval.

 

One patient had entered the trial with multiple pain complaints as a result of an auto accident - she had pain due to a fractured shoulder and jaw. She had received 3 Medical Qigong treatments and felt that her shoulder problem was eliminated, however, she felt the jaw pain was unchanged from pre-treatment.

 

Discussion: The results were particularly enlightening when we consider 50% of the patients in the study felt that the treatments would not help their problem. However, regardless of belief the Medical Qigong treatment had a major impact on reducing pain even for the non-believers. This fact is testament to the Power of Medical Qigong in particular the treatments that come from the Stillness-Movement Lineage.

[Owledge]

To be fair though, after reading this, the study does leave a lot to be desired, has several weak points, at least based on the explanations here.

 

If there was a lack of patients, at least one or two could have been chosen for placebo treatment. Taking them away from the rest would overall have improved the quality of the study. And is a placebo practitioner really necessary? Can't you just act as if you did treatment, without doing any healing? Or if more external verifiability was needed, was there really nobody else to be found who could have 'faked' energy healing treatments and has no skills of the type?

 

Other weaknesses:

- pain relief as measure of healing success. What was the verifiable medical effect? W.g. if a patient has shoulder pain after a car accident, what's crucial is not whether the pain is gone, but whether a verified injury has healed. Pain sensation is highly influenced by the psyche and some other factors. It is not very 'substantial'. - several treatments over a span of 3 months. This introduces a lot of other unchecked effects that can apply between the healing treatments; a lot of noise into the signal so to speak.

- gradual change = success? How many patients were completely relieved of the pain and how many simply experienced a certain reduction in pain? How great? And again, judging pain on a scale is highly subjective.

 

 

I can understand the problem with studies about energy healing though. First the mainstream medical establishment dominates a lot and thus there is little money for actively supporting the study of energy healing, and then getting the studies to the public is met with resistance from the same, and then there is people's willful ignorance that they 'learned' - again - from the established dogmas.

[doc benway]

And finally a very good saying about the untrustworthyness of the mind in regards to spirituality:

"Don't believe everything you think!"

 

So true and so important - looking deeply into the whole process of thought and its content is critical for growth.

[Mokona]

I studied the DAO DE JING

Alot of good it did you, eh?

[Kempomaster]

And to my point -- you definitely have issues.

 

The point of the study - was that it has been done - in the confines of a University clsass - that is a 6 month class -- my point was an actual study could take several years to design. And yes - you would need a Placebo practitioner...as one that has the ability to project Qi and has compassion may in fact (probably would) treat the individual that it was determined would get a placebo treatment.

 

No - my students don't call me teacher or master - simply refer to me by my given first name.

 

So - go on and on if you wish -- but try to eliminate the anger from your heart or you will never have clarity in your eyes.

 

You can read whatever you want -- but try living it. Respect is built in to the book -- respect for others and life -- you are not displaying that.

 

Kempomaster