Quick MCO question.

[jacklantegi]

Maybe I'm a bit slow, but it seems like I have never seen a clear explanation for where the energy must be circulated in the MCO in relation to the locations of these two important channels.

 

The front channel is often said to be in "the front of the body". Does this mean that the energy actually goes down on the front surface of the central channel, meaning on the skin, or even outside of the body? I've heard in other places that the central ligament located right under the skin is what actually conducts the energy.

 

Elsewhere, it is said that the energy descends in the MIDDLE of the body, like when you are supposed to descend to the Dan Tien, we all know that the Dan TIen is deep behind (and perhaps below) the naval, right? So how can it be in front of the body???

 

Which one is it?

 

Regarding the back channel: Same question. Does the energy ascend directly THROUGH the spinal cord, or behind (or perhaps outside) of the spinal cord?

 

And the last related question: The third eye. Is it on the surface of the forehead area, or some distance behind it?

 

I have been doing the Small Universe (which is Master Lin's version of the MCO) for 3 months now, and I still can't get a hang of it. I have almost never gotten any good results from doing the practice and its always a real chore for me to do (but the active exercises are VERY fun, though!).

 

Another thing about the Small Universe- several of the "key" focus points along the back channel, are, in other MCO systems, "dangerous gates" where one is under no circumstance to focus their energy, because it is supposedly not only counterproductive, but may also be dangerous.. it's not something that I'm worried about, it was just surprising when I found out about it.

 

Any advice or opinions would be greatly appreciated!

[Cheshire Cat]

Please check this amazing book before attempting MCO

Tao and longevity

[jacklantegi]

Thanks for the advice.

 

I have been doing a modified version of the MCO, called the "Small Universe", which was created by Master Chunyi Lin.

 

I have been practicing every day diligently for the past few months... so I appreciate your recommendation, but I think my questions are very simple and straightforward, and don't require an entire book to find an answer. I also don't think it's a prerequisite for practicing the MCO. In Spring Forest Qigong, Master Lin's Small Universe is a beginning meditation which he states is completely safe for any practitioner, no matter what their level is.

 

I have many, many books and videos about taoist alchemical practices, but because of all the conflicting information, I wanted to get some input from you guys.

 

 

 

Please check this amazing book before attempting MCO

Tao and longevity

[Ish]

Personally i try not to do it too intellectually.

Just using awareness/feel, getting into a deep state to feel out the energy and not let your mind get in the way.

From the school i learned it, the channels are more near the surface.

From Lu kuan yu's taoist alchemy and immortality the channels seem a bit deeper, inside the spine and up to ni wan in brain, not crown.

 

So if the system you're using says where the points are just stick to that.

[Cheshire Cat]

Thanks for the advice.

 

I have been doing a modified version of the MCO, called the "Small Universe", which was created by Master Chunyi Lin.

 

I have been practicing every day diligently for the past few months... so I appreciate your recommendation, but I think my questions are very simple and straightforward, and don't require an entire book to find an answer. I also don't think it's a prerequisite for practicing the MCO. In Spring Forest Qigong, Master Lin's Small Universe is a beginning meditation which he states is completely safe for any practitioner, no matter what their level is.

 

I have many, many books and videos about taoist alchemical practices, but because of all the conflicting information, I wanted to get some input from you guys.

 

It contains exactly what you are looking for .. and it is a perspective of a skilled practitioner that talk about physical transformation occuring when the qi mai are open and so on.

The autor is Nan Huai-Chin, a renowed enlightened Master.

 

A treasure, not a common book on taoist alchemy.

[Informer]

[sea-dog]

I've got some great feedback, in another thread, by Dao rain Tao, so I think I will check out the recommended book myself.

I'll probably order it either from the library or amazon right after I finish this post.

 

My understanding/experience (keeping in mind that I am in no way even remotely a master) is that the front and back channels are basically on the skin. They are not the same as the central channel that runs much deeper right through the core of the body, along with two other "thrusting channels." I say "basically" because they are in your energy body not your physical body per se (that's how I learned it anyways).

 

When you say you are not getting results, do you mean that you don't feel the energy? Or do you mean that you do feel the energy but are receiving no benefit from the exercise?

If it is the former; I have learned, from several different teachers, to lightly brush your body with your fingers (or anything else) several times and then to kinesthetically "visualize" the feeling. You can also kinesthetically visualize the chi while tracing the pathway with you hands ~6 inches from you body.

Lastly I found Michael Winn's DVD of mco chi kung movements to really help me a lot. I don't his mco audio tapes, but based on the CDs I do have I'm sure they are very good too.

[joeblast]

I think prerequisite work is important. So I went from learning lower dt breathing/embryonic breathing, longevity breath, skin breath, (kunlun-redphoenix as accelerant in all of this somewhere,) re-focus on lower dt breath, 2dt lower upper, 2dt lower middle, 3dt concurrent, hm,

Maybe I'm a bit slow, but it seems like I have never seen a clear explanation for where the energy must be circulated in the MCO in relation to the locations of these two important channels.

 

The front channel is often said to be in "the front of the body". Does this mean that the energy actually goes down on the front surface of the central channel, meaning on the skin, or even outside of the body? I've heard in other places that the central ligament located right under the skin is what actually conducts the energy.If you examine the conductivity of the tissues, you find certain tissues more conductive than others. Nerve>Bone>smooth muscle>tendon>muscle>fat...skin. Roughly speaking. Of course fields extend, but this serves as a bit of a basis.

 

Elsewhere, it is said that the energy descends in the MIDDLE of the body, like when you are supposed to descend to the Dan Tien, we all know that the Dan TIen is deep behind (and perhaps below) the naval, right? So how can it be in front of the body???

 

Which one is it? Sometimes trying too hard limits you. If you let go of all these notions and attempt to find the phenomenological experience within your person, you can get more direct confirmation. The front MCO loop goes down the front, though.

 

Regarding the back channel: Same question. Does the energy ascend directly THROUGH the spinal cord, or behind (or perhaps outside) of the spinal cord?Both, and there are tendons that run the length of the spine on the anterior...anterior interior....posterior interior....as well as posterior. That's why I posted that vid of the eskimo yo yo

 

And the last related question: The third eye. Is it on the surface of the forehead area, or some distance behind it?Crossing the piezoelectric semiconducting threshold,....erm...it is through, in a manner of speaking.

 

I have been doing the Small Universe (which is Master Lin's version of the MCO) for 3 months now, and I still can't get a hang of it. I have almost never gotten any good results from doing the practice and its always a real chore for me to do (but the active exercises are VERY fun, though!).

 

Another thing about the Small Universe- several of the "key" focus points along the back channel, are, in other MCO systems, "dangerous gates" where one is under no circumstance to focus their energy, because it is supposedly not only counterproductive, but may also be dangerous.. it's not something that I'm worried about, it was just surprising when I found out about it.Dont be too worried, when looping, loop. When stopping, stop.

 

Any advice or opinions would be greatly appreciated!

Edited March 28, 2012 by joeblast

[jacklantegi]

Thanks for the advice guys, it's helping me a ton! I will try to focus on the surface of the skin for my next question.

 

To answer your question, I feel the energy very, very strongly, and I can also adjust the intensity by changing focal area. For instance (the way I've been doing it anyway), if I focus on heart center point, in the middle of the chest, I can make it a very intense point the size of a golf ball, or I can expand it to the size of a grapefruit and cover more area, thereby distributing the intensity.

 

This is one of the things that I find makes the practice so cumbersome for me; I have to focus very hard on the size, location and intensity of the focal points, because otherwise the energy tends to get out of control, for instance, it will jump out of the body, move a few inches in any direction, change shape, get stuck, split in half, etc.

 

And that's also one of the main reasons for my question; depending on the intensity and location of my point of focus, I get different results, such as the energy getting harder to move to the next location, getting "stuck" more easily, etc.

 

I have tried just letting go and not trying too hard but then it doesn't really feel like I have done anything at all when I'm finished, and it also makes me doze away. I have to either concentrate on my breathing to stay focused, and lose track of the energy, or focus on the energy, and lose the "emptiness" or "not overdoing it" aspect.

 

On another tangent, is the energy supposed to feel 2 or 3-dimensional? In other words, should it feel like a ball, or should it feel like the surface of a circle (or whatever shape or area)?

In regards to my saying I'm not getting much results, I am talking about the actual outcome of the practice. Oftentimes, I don't feel very different after the meditation compared to before I started, and sometimes I actually feel worse afterwards. Only on a few occasions have I felt a true tangible short-term benefit, which is why I started questioning whether I was actually doing it right in the first place.

 

The active exercises (in SFQ) on the other hand, give me very positive tangible results both in the short and long term.

 

 

 

When you say you are not getting results, do you mean that you don't feel the energy? Or do you mean that you do feel the energy but are receiving no benefit from the exercise?

 

[Aetherous]

Another thing about the Small Universe- several of the "key" focus points along the back channel, are, in other MCO systems, "dangerous gates" where one is under no circumstance to focus their energy, because it is supposedly not only counterproductive, but may also be dangerous.. it's not something that I'm worried about, it was just surprising when I found out about it.

 

The focus in the Small Universe audio is so quick that it's not really dangerous. In my opinion, it's not actually "focusing" with intensity so much as it is guiding the energy from point to point gently (qi follows your mind and will naturally end up flowing along the two channels that way). This type of 'focusing on the gates' is a beginning way of causing the orbit to flow smoothly and ensuring everything is balanced.

 

Keep watch of your signs and symptoms...if you notice anything that seems bad, you can always take a break from that practice.

 

This is one of the things that I find makes the practice so cumbersome for me; I have to focus very hard on the size, location and intensity of the focal points, because otherwise the energy tends to get out of control, for instance, it will jump out of the body, move a few inches in any direction, change shape, get stuck, split in half, etc.

 

It's better to let go. Focusing intensely creates disturbances in the qi. What the mind does is more important than what the qi wants to do...qi is always doing what your system requires for harmony, so it should be trusted. Sometimes it may be the exact opposite of what the mind is trying to do...that's ok. Just move the awareness of sensation, or the kinesthetic sense, from point to point without any extra effort...be totally serene. Also, the kinesthetic sense may be screwed up, for instance as you said sometimes it seems to jump out of the body or do other weird things...that's okay, having attention in the general area does the same thing that you want as intensely focusing does...it attracts the qi to that area. And most important is relaxing the mind, which is continually shaping the qi's result as it beckons it.

 

I think that will help, if it makes sense.

[jacklantegi]

What would you say is the most important factor regarding qi in the he Small Universe/MCO?

 

From what I understood, the kinesthetic intensity level at any given area does not equate to better results, so what is optimal? Just getting in the most relaxed/empty state as possible and gently focusing on each area until you get some kind of a kinesthetic awareness response? On a similar note, if I simply visualize the energy, and make it as bright as I possibly can, then I lose all kinesthetic awareness. Mixing visualization and kinesthetic focus makes it a LOT harder for me, so I just leave the visualization part out of the picture completely.

 

Also, is it important to still feel the energy while moving between each point, or is simply shifting your focus to the next point sufficient? I have read that it is necessary to feel the energy move to the next area since it clears the "path" between the two points as it moves through...

 

I mean, it's not really clear the way it is described in the SFQ Level 1 program. Master Lin basically says to just "push the energy to the next location". That's about it.

 

I know it's a very individual thing, but I've been practicing for a pretty reasonable amount of time now and I'm still not able to just "go with the flow", so to speak....

 

The focus in the Small Universe audio is so quick that it's not really dangerous. In my opinion, it's not actually "focusing" with intensity so much as it is guiding the energy from point to point gently (qi follows your mind and will naturally end up flowing along the two channels that way). This type of 'focusing on the gates' is a beginning way of causing the orbit to flow smoothly and ensuring everything is balanced.

 

Keep watch of your signs and symptoms...if you notice anything that seems bad, you can always take a break from that practice.

 

 

 

It's better to let go. Focusing intensely creates disturbances in the qi. What the mind does is more important than what the qi wants to do...qi is always doing what your system requires for harmony, so it should be trusted. Sometimes it may be the exact opposite of what the mind is trying to do...that's ok. Just move the awareness of sensation, or the kinesthetic sense, from point to point without any extra effort...be totally serene. Also, the kinesthetic sense may be screwed up, for instance as you said sometimes it seems to jump out of the body or do other weird things...that's okay, having attention in the general area does the same thing that you want as intensely focusing does...it attracts the qi to that area. And most important is relaxing the mind, which is continually shaping the qi's result as it beckons it.

 

I think that will help, if it makes sense.

[Aetherous]

Just be relaxed, put the mind roughly on the next point when the audio says to. IMO, that is all. You don't have to wait for a feeling of energy or push it or shape it or anything.

 

Since qi follows the mind, pushing it doesn't make much sense. The mind must go first then the qi will follow, and be pulled...this is the natural and healthy way.

 

The following way of thinking might help: imagine for a second, that water (qi) can be attracted by a certain type of magnet (attention). Consider the pathways of the orbit...if you can feel energy move from one gate to another, then that area may be fairly clear of blockages. It's like a river through which the water is pulled towards the magnet.

 

Another path from gate to gate may not have any energy sensations...so maybe there are blockages like a beaver dam or big piles of rocks, logs, whatever in the way of the river. But the water will still be attracted to the magnet, so it will flow around those things and gradually wear them down.

 

If you stay at one gate too long, it will create a flood in one part and a drought in another, and cause the whole river system to become unbalanced. This may cause the beaver dams and fallen trees and whatever else to be forcefully pushed and gathered in one spot, creating a greater blockage than there was before.

 

The better way is to keep it even...each flood gate then can remain open at the right time...then as the water flows smoothly through the whole river-system, it increases momentum and will more easily and safely break apart any blockages in its path.

 

All of this is accomplished just by going from point to point with the mind.

 

At least this is my idea of it.

[jacklantegi]

Point taken... thanks!

 

But what is the purpose of intensifying the "brightness" or what have you by pulling in the universal and master's energy? If doing that without the intent to make it brighter or more intense or whatever, then what would be the point?

 

Just be relaxed, put the mind roughly on the next point when the audio says to. IMO, that is all. You don't have to wait for a feeling of energy or push it or shape it or anything.

 

Since qi follows the mind, pushing it doesn't make much sense. The mind must go first then the qi will follow, and be pulled...this is the natural and healthy way.

 

The following way of thinking might help: imagine for a second, that water (qi) can be attracted by a certain type of magnet (attention). Consider the pathways of the orbit...if you can feel energy move from one gate to another, then that area may be fairly clear of blockages. It's like a river through which the water is pulled towards the magnet.

 

Another path from gate to gate may not have any energy sensations...so maybe there are blockages like a beaver dam or big piles of rocks, logs, whatever in the way of the river. But the water will still be attracted to the magnet, so it will flow around those things and gradually wear them down.

 

If you stay at one gate too long, it will create a flood in one part and a drought in another, and cause the whole river system to become unbalanced. This may cause the beaver dams and fallen trees and whatever else to be forcefully pushed and gathered in one spot, creating a greater blockage than there was before.

 

The better way is to keep it even...each flood gate then can remain open at the right time...then as the water flows smoothly through the whole river-system, it increases momentum and will more easily and safely break apart any blockages in its path.

 

All of this is accomplished just by going from point to point with the mind.

 

At least this is my idea of it.

[Birch]

That's a nice illustration Scott:-)

Reminded me about the nature of Shen,qi,jing.

I also pondered the 'entry points' of each for a while recently. Because while they're undisputedly linked (or flow into each other if you will), the points at which they do that are sort of tricky to figure.

 

Sorry if I'm not making sense. Sometimes I get a hold of a concept and for a while it doesn't have any words on it. I can feel it, but can't explain.

 

Ah well

[dawei]

I also pondered the 'entry points' of each for a while recently. Because while they're undisputedly linked (or flow into each other if you will), the points at which they do that are sort of tricky to figure.

I see these three as more a transformation (think the 5 element phase/transformation), rather than a singular flow going gate to gate. Maybe I am not following your idea if you want to share it further?

[Birch]

It's a barely formed idea dwai;-)

The 3 "things" are forms of the same (despite having perceptibly different qualities) They do flow into each other but the perceptual point at which that happens is the crux of the issue of "transformation" and "causality".. The points (or I suppose you could call them "gates") at which the exchanges happen are...well that's about as far as I've got with the putting words on the idea thing:-)

If language wasn't an issue I could sort of wordlessly tell you what I mean. Like that time I tried to explain what it felt like to be the s-shaped line in the tai-chi. Not sure i was very clear that time either:-)

[Aetherous]

Like that time I tried to explain what it felt like to be the s-shaped line in the tai-chi. Not sure i was very clear that time either:-)

 

Got it.

 

[Birch]

Got it.

 

 

Dude, that's like, totally telepathic!

[寒月 Hanyue]

Please check this amazing book before attempting MCO

Tao and longevity

 

I agree with DRT

 

Though I would read this first;

 

http://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Life-Force-Apprenticeship-Master/dp/1591810558/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1333141889&sr=8-1

 

Then I would Tao & Longevity.

 

yin & yang

[寒月 Hanyue]

What would you say is the most important factor regarding qi in the he Small Universe/MCO?

 

Simple. Having qi in the dantian. No water in the tank, nothing is gonna move about but your mind and awareness.

 

Listen to Scotty,

 

Best

[寒月 Hanyue]

Fill a bath with hot water. Pour in a load of cold water. Stick your hand in and swirl it around to mix the water until you can take your hand out and watch as the water 'circulates'. Now, where is the channel??

 

Not clear enough? Try adding a dye to the cold water. How does the "channel" relate to the whole bath of water?

 

Best,

Edited March 30, 2012 by snowmonki

[z00se]

What would you say is the most important factor regarding qi in the he Small Universe/MCO?

 

From what I understood, the kinesthetic intensity level at any given area does not equate to better results, so what is optimal? Just getting in the most relaxed/empty state as possible and gently focusing on each area until you get some kind of a kinesthetic awareness response? On a similar note, if I simply visualize the energy, and make it as bright as I possibly can, then I lose all kinesthetic awareness. Mixing visualization and kinesthetic focus makes it a LOT harder for me, so I just leave the visualization part out of the picture completely.

 

Also, is it important to still feel the energy while moving between each point, or is simply shifting your focus to the next point sufficient? I have read that it is necessary to feel the energy move to the next area since it clears the "path" between the two points as it moves through...

 

I mean, it's not really clear the way it is described in the SFQ Level 1 program. Master Lin basically says to just "push the energy to the next location". That's about it.

 

I know it's a very individual thing, but I've been practicing for a pretty reasonable amount of time now and I'm still not able to just "go with the flow", so to speak....

 

Ok First thing... You are doing very well, i can tell you have spent a bit of time on it because you can explain what is happening very well and you have a good sense of what is happening.

 

Now.. The answer for your questions - First the easy answer and best one. "Yes, yes, very good... keep practicing". Doing this will work.

 

Now for the more detailed one. What happens when you go to a point and you don't feel much energy there is because that point needs energy. The energy goes into that point and through other meridians from that major point to the organs that need it. So when you get to a point and the energy dissapears or gets weaker its because the energy is needed there and it is used. If you try really hard and focus on the point and try to keep the energy brighter there you will prevent it from going through the point and to where it is needed inside, so don't do that.

 

Now as to the best way to do it, as with kinesthetic intensity level as you call it is depending on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to have more chi in your body, more energy to use it as you choose, well then you increase the intensity and keep on increasing it. It gets stronger and stronger till you can't bare it any more. It will force open blocked channels and then finally all your channels will be open but you will still be concentrating on the energy, and so some channels will be blocked. If you want to get the full 'no thought', enlightenment experience then you finally have to give up that intenseness and have faith in your body's own intelligence to direct the energy where it feels fit. After all your body knows where the energy should go better than where you 'think' it should go. But the more and more intese your energy becomes, the more troublesome it becomes to guide it through the MCO, and so finally you just give up because you just want a rest and can't be bothered anymore and woohoo there you are - no think!

 

And as to where to direct the energy, well when you begin it circulates at an outer level and flows smoothly and well, outside your body in the orbit. You can try to move it in more but it gets stuck, just keep it out where it goes smoothly. Slowly it will auto move in deeper and deeper. The thrusting channels will start opening up and moving with your MCO too automatically by themselves.

 

In my opinion MCO is all that is requered. The macrocosmic orbit where you go out of your head to the universe and down thru ur feet to the earth is just unecessary, all that energy will be pulled in by it's self, just let it flow it when it want to. Oh, but on your problem points where the energy dissapears or gets stuck you can pull more energy from other points or outside energy to force these places to open up. But it's just the 2 sides to the practice. Either grab more and more energy and force open blockages and get some bad side effects or relax more so the energy can just go through there. Doing both at the same time is best, so relaxation makes it easier for the energy to go through and more energy makes it easier to go through too

 

Just most important point i have to make is don't force it or try too hard, just let it happen. Don't try too hard doesn't mean dont' spend alot of time on it, you can spend lots of time just let it do it's self, not 'you' do it. After all you are trying to get rid of the 'you' so that then there can be the real you. Otherwise you are just reinforcing the ego you.

 

Keep at it and let us know how you get on.

 

So the general idea is to do the practices but dont try too hard to do anything like you've read it. Just do it and let it do it's own way and be patient.

[jacklantegi]

Hey!

 

Sorry I didn't check back here earlier.... this is exactly the information I was looking for. Most informative... you certainly know your stuff!

 

I'm eternally grateful, my friend. Thank you!

 

Ok First thing... You are doing very well, i can tell you have spent a bit of time on it because you can explain what is happening very well and you have a good sense of what is happening.

 

Now.. The answer for your questions - First the easy answer and best one. "Yes, yes, very good... keep practicing". Doing this will work.

 

Now for the more detailed one. What happens when you go to a point and you don't feel much energy there is because that point needs energy. The energy goes into that point and through other meridians from that major point to the organs that need it. So when you get to a point and the energy dissapears or gets weaker its because the energy is needed there and it is used. If you try really hard and focus on the point and try to keep the energy brighter there you will prevent it from going through the point and to where it is needed inside, so don't do that.

 

Now as to the best way to do it, as with kinesthetic intensity level as you call it is depending on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to have more chi in your body, more energy to use it as you choose, well then you increase the intensity and keep on increasing it. It gets stronger and stronger till you can't bare it any more. It will force open blocked channels and then finally all your channels will be open but you will still be concentrating on the energy, and so some channels will be blocked. If you want to get the full 'no thought', enlightenment experience then you finally have to give up that intenseness and have faith in your body's own intelligence to direct the energy where it feels fit. After all your body knows where the energy should go better than where you 'think' it should go. But the more and more intese your energy becomes, the more troublesome it becomes to guide it through the MCO, and so finally you just give up because you just want a rest and can't be bothered anymore and woohoo there you are - no think!

 

And as to where to direct the energy, well when you begin it circulates at an outer level and flows smoothly and well, outside your body in the orbit. You can try to move it in more but it gets stuck, just keep it out where it goes smoothly. Slowly it will auto move in deeper and deeper. The thrusting channels will start opening up and moving with your MCO too automatically by themselves.

 

In my opinion MCO is all that is requered. The macrocosmic orbit where you go out of your head to the universe and down thru ur feet to the earth is just unecessary, all that energy will be pulled in by it's self, just let it flow it when it want to. Oh, but on your problem points where the energy dissapears or gets stuck you can pull more energy from other points or outside energy to force these places to open up. But it's just the 2 sides to the practice. Either grab more and more energy and force open blockages and get some bad side effects or relax more so the energy can just go through there. Doing both at the same time is best, so relaxation makes it easier for the energy to go through and more energy makes it easier to go through too

 

Just most important point i have to make is don't force it or try too hard, just let it happen. Don't try too hard doesn't mean dont' spend alot of time on it, you can spend lots of time just let it do it's self, not 'you' do it. After all you are trying to get rid of the 'you' so that then there can be the real you. Otherwise you are just reinforcing the ego you.

 

Keep at it and let us know how you get on.

 

So the general idea is to do the practices but dont try too hard to do anything like you've read it. Just do it and let it do it's own way and be patient.