Had a profound! one-consciousness-like experience with ayahuasca

[Owledge]

If you take the time to read all this, I'm confident you won't regret it. I enjoy explaining abstract things in much detail so that people can imagine it better. I will now write the experiences that I had with my first two ayahuasca ceremonies at a Santo Daime church, in the hope that I might inspire you and that your feedback might help me get more clarity about the experience.

 

First ceremony:

 

It was basically a dance with way over 100 people for 5 or 6 hours, shamanic style, very repetitive, just moving left-right with different steps. Interestingly in an octagon.

I did a taste test and surprisingly the ayahuasca brew didn't taste horrible to me, just slightly unpleasant.

 

After some time I got weird feelings, a bit like drunk/poisoned/nauseated. When that effect peaked the first time, it felt like I am bordering on discovering something totally frightening or awe-inspiring because it would void many concepts of the mind. Later I'll discover what that feeling was about. My mind was running with thoughts and I tried several times to stop it. Eventually the drugged-like feeling was like I could feel the thick energy field of the circle, swaying, and if I followed the movement, it would feel in sync, if I was out of sync, I could feel the subtle forces.

So I tried my best to just let go and follow. A bit like spontaneous Nei Gong maybe. My first 'real' perception of energy fields.

... Then suddenly I came to me on a mat with a bleeding nose and the coordinator helping me. I had fallen unconscious and hit my nose on the floor. I was not in fear or panic, just a bit confused at first, but then quite relaxed and happy. The fact that I had been forced to switch off the mind felt like a relief. Not sure how much of that was psyche and how much body chemistry though.

From there on, there was so much subtle insight or feelings I got. A whole process of awareness and pondering and experiencing started. I felt immense awe and humility towards the power of the plant. I felt she must be the ambassador of the universe itself.

For example, when I listened to the repetitive singing, it felt like it was the immutable rhythm of life, knowing no mercy, just doing its thing, and those who don't obey... their fault. No special treatment for anyone.

Things like that and also the subtle feeling that the surrounding events, everything that happens, is a lesson of the plant and the universe itself, made me more accepting of all kinds of experiences. At least for a while. It's not like that stereotype of having a profound insight and then you are a different person, and that's why I can't rule out that it's a temporary effect because it's just the chemicals giving me a high.

 

What happened after my nose stopped bleeding:

Nausea. And this experience troubled me. I was at first kneeling on the ground in a humiliated position, head over a bucket, and I felt a bit like I have to vomit, not very close to that, though, but it was not normal. It felt like connected with the nausea was a lot more, and I can only guess how much. Maybe all of my egoic mind, not sure. I observed how something in me was begging "Pleeease, no, have mercy!". I felt so miserable during that experience that having to vomit at that time was like the most horrible thing. Metaphorically speaking like the plant got me by my balls and was beginning to squeeze. I also thought that whatever was talking there was really a pathetic worm, totally chickening out. Very disappointed with myself. But at least I totally gave in to the miserable feeling, fully lived it. Felt more relief that way.

After that I sat on a chair when I felt I 'deserved' it, looking towards the circle. We were told in advance we should not cross hands or legs, that would block the healing energy, and oh my, I was really tempted to cross my hands on that chair. I could feel how that thing in me was unwilling to handle any more healing. I could really turn the healing from the dancing circle pretty much on and off that way.

Later I lied down, still feeling sick, and then it was basically a lot of pondering, feeling into myself, and the nausea slowly fading, accompanied by some regions having muscle jerking every now and then. I can only assume that stuff got shaken loose, analogue to shaking medicine and many other techniques. I just allowed it to happen.

Interestingly, once I felt a little better, I was regretful and really wanted to vomit, but couldn't, and when I was offered more ayahuasca, I declined because I had to drive home later and dunno, maybe that was just an excuse. I simply didn't feel strong enough at that point.

 

In pondering about things up to now, I've been wondering about the nausea part. I frustratedly thought I might have the greatest barrier imaginable to overcome. I also assumed that maybe the problem was that what the plant attempted to purge was simply too much at once, but also considered that maybe I was never intented to actually vomit at that night. All very vague, but maybe I now understand how it feels to receive messages for the heart instead of the mind. It's not clear-as-fact, but suddenly there are impressions, associations.

 

Later, while in bed, I had this line of thought:

Maybe the feelings associated with the challenging of the egoic mind are it defending itself. But the egoic mind is not to be purged, right? Not even transcended. It is about not being controlled by it any longer, right?

 

Then these assumptions:

1/3 insight: Ayahuasca made me feel miserable to show me my egoic mind.

2/3 insight: My egoic mind made me feel miserable in order to maintain control.

3/3 insight: I myself made me feel miserable because I fell for the egoic mind's bluff. Nothing bad is going to happen if I vomit, nothing is even happening to my mind, except that I free myself of the ego's dominance over my heart. There's nothing to fear but fear itself, right? So it would be an irrational fear being triggered, because there is nothing behind it.

 

 

Now to the second ceremony:

 

It was singing, mostly sitting, a bit standing. But that's not so important.

This time I had more resolve to succeed where I had failed last time. I still don't know whether the vomiting that gradually happened this time was of any significance, because a day later, I don't really feel any permanent relief or something.

 

When the scary feeling occured, I again shyed away if I remember correctly. OK, so the following was mostly practicing to allow the purge (=vomiting) to happen.

I got a lot of shaking this time, and for example, when I felt too heady and put one hand on my lower dan tien, my legs and abdomen would shake a lot.

I also felt tension in kidneys and heart and just tried to deeply breathe into the areas.

 

OK, all up to this point was nothing compared to the hardcore experience that ensued when I boldly accepted a second glass of ayahuasca. And it's this part that I am really confused about.

 

The second glass was good at quickly inducing vomiting, but the whole purging would go on for a while. I got to that scarily profound point again, but this time, I gave in to it. And then, with eyes closed I think, I began to see moving, colorful patterns. And then they bleeded over into open-eyed perception. I began to see rasters and geometric patterns in stuff, and highlighted symbols on the floor tiles and a strange doll-like thing near a chair. It was a bit like my perception got infused with creative imagination on steroids.

And then I was trapped. It was dawning on me that I was witnessing some kind of creative source, which was me, and there was nothing else. It was exactly like that saying that the One cannot experience itself. I was in a loop. Whenever I had some kind of thought/idea/assumption that was based on normal reality, immediately I would get re-routed and referred to the thing itself that creates all that. This was scary as hell, but I didn't really feel fear, just confused frustration. For example, when I though: "I just want it to stop!" the immediate realization would be that this is based on time perception, and there is none anymore in this state.

Occasionally, and especially if I touched things and focused and moved my head, normal reality would be slightly coming back for a brief moment, but any thought I would form then would immediately start the madness again, often repetitive perceptions of things that probably already happened.

 

The following was basically a struggle to not lose my mind. (Maybe that's a very accurate way of saying it, but I have no idea until I can examine several viewpoints on the experience.) In the brief moments of 'reality' I'd think: "If I give into it, I will go insane. I will never come back to experiencing reality with a sane mind." And the times I gave into it for a moment, the colorful patterns were accompanied by a very vague perception of a buddha-style figure sitting in lotus position (EDIT: or maybe just the head, not sure), calmly enjoying the process of being.

Gradually, several philosophical ideas emerged that in the end gave me a realized mindset that felt good for a while, but now it's weird that I remember everything but it's all still chop wood, carry water, as difficult as before, haha. Maybe the real work for me comes after the drug trip.

I now believed that I was experiencing the source, the one consciousness, and that - as Daoism mentions somewhere - it cannot experience itself. Every look at itself would just point at the process of looking and creation, the looking is a part of the thing that looks. Totally paradox, and "infinite loop of consciousness" is really the best term I can come up with.

One exemplary thought during that process would be: "Do I still need to vomit, to release something?" and the insight would be: Do you want to? You decide everything. I could even consider doing it and not doing it both, exploring both options, and I did repetitively, without coming to a decision, which probably was impossible, because making a decision is time-based. I thought: "OK, focusing on normal reality, isn't purging something I came for?" and this thought again would refer me to the all-powerful consciousness and I was like AAAARRRRGH and really got tired of all this! You know, try to imagine this: You think: "Eventually it has to end!" and then you feel like with looking at those colorful patterns in the first place, you ended your walk of life in normal reality and all lives, like it's done now, just BE now.

But I was repulsed by that prospect, probably in parts due to it seeming utterly boring.

So what ensued was me struggling through different loops of repeating impressions and clawing my way back to normal reality, having mood swings from calm and content to confused and desperate, and it seemed that every now and then I passed some kind of milestone and then the watch would reward me with advancing 5 minutes or so. During a loop experience, the time wouldn't progress at all it seemed.

Oh yes, at one point I got my watch from my jacket in the wardrobe in order to help me stay in touch with the realm where time exists, and walking there felt fake like I am an actor and the jackets in the wardrobe, it was just fake, just symbolic, because I was creating all those things, so the fakeness at the same time felt more real than real. That's also why, while I was lying around on a mat under a blanket, I acted pretty unconstrained. I treated my environment just the way you treat stuff that is yours anyway.

Later on, I kept drifting back into oneness mode because I followed the advice to lie straight and just allow the healing energy to flow. And every time now that I drifted to that state again, it felt like a cool mist was flowing throught my third eye. Sometimes I'd just sit there and put my arms in front of my forehead, but that was an act of despair. Of course that couldn't block anything. I kept telling the coordinator that I'd be so happy if I could just forget all that.

And as I said, funnily afterwards I didn't forget anything, only that connection to oneness faded away.

 

Eventually, when the trip was mostly over, and lasting for a few hours, I gained a strong acceptance of all kinds of experience, not only positive ones. So unlike what people say about ayahuasca trips, it was not the memory that gradually faded in my case, but the feeling. I had a greater appreciation for just joining singing and everything that is not thinking, but just going with what happens.

 

And now I'm wondering what the point of all that was, what alternative outcomes there could have been and what they would look like. I'd very much have preferred to get more ordinary insights that might help with my everyday life, to help me find my way, and then I got that probably most-profound-of-all experience. Has my mind gotten just too curious about profound questions so that now I got what I asked for? (All the time I just wanted a gradual, wearing-down the stone type healing experience.) And do you think if I had managed to totally give in to the oneness experience and not freak out, I might have transcended suffering and become an enlightened being like the buddha? Was it even an option? I don't know. But maybe I had a choice between strengthening my affirmation of life or my transcendence of life and chose the former one. Which in a way probably was what I wanted in the first place. I am not ready to transcend it, I want to dive into it.

You know, it kinda makes sense to consider that I might have witnessed the reason why and process of the creation of this reality - that the Dao was so sick and bored of itself just being that all the utter despair I felt was making it happen. It seemed like the trip would not end unless I reached a devotion to the 'illusion' that is powerful enough to make it convincing. That also made sense when I wished with me being all-powerful I'd have the heartfelt wishes and goals in my life manifest just like that, because then I'd get the insight that that would be cheating - that the illusion can only work if you don't cheat, and that the One, being myself in a way, has no intention of destroying its precious playground.

 

Another profound thing I am trying to wrap my head around: Couldn't it be that the oneness was the illusion and the normal reality the more profound state? That all the time, it was my mind playing with itself in self-importance and showing me how if the mind doesn't let the heart steer the ship, it would end up in madness? Wow, this makes so much sense right now if you consider the connection between having severe heart chakra issues (sociopaths?) and mental insanity (mind fading out reality, only busy with itself).

Maybe if I hadn't tried to come down again during the trip, I would have affirmed that process of mind being busy with itself, and I could have continued that for as long as I wanted, and time would not pass for me. Infinite loop. Total wacko.

 

I think I'll attend some more ayahuasca ceremonies. I guess the mere curiosity about what will happen next time and the fact that my life still looks pretty much the same drives me.

But one thing I tell you: During the trip, I kept telling me: "In case you forget a lot of this, remember this one thing: NEVER TAKE A SECOND GLASS!".

Edited April 21, 2012 by Owledge

[Fū Yue]

All the sounds of the world arise from a silence so profound that it's stillness seems to be a motion. The Dao does not get bored, nor sick, it is our own restlessness that splits the void into one-thousand things. This is the folly the individual tends to make - assuming that there is a normal, a reality, a time, a place, a person, a creation... What happens when you try to declare sovereignty over a mirage? What good is it to attempt to wrestle with light?

 

If you listen closely to that silence, you will not lose your mind but gain it, and if you continue to create delusion, you will not achieve the illuminating taste.

 

That's my view. The Dao is always experiencing itself, but in order to see the Dao, you must leave everything you own behind, including the precious playground.

[doc benway]

Maybe the real work for me comes after the drug trip.

Great post.

My perspective is that my perspective won't help you too much.

That said, I'll share a few thoughts anyway.

You've been given a gift of a complex vision. It is yours to work through.

I don't think it's simple and superficial enough to fully understand now, maybe ever.

But I would try and bring those insights into my daily life and stay open to what it has to teach.

I don't think there's much value in wondering what if this or what if that.

Your reaction and your experience are exactly what they had to be as you are.

That is exactly what was being shown you.

Thanks very much for sharing that and I hope (and have confidence) that it will gradually help you see more deeply into yourself.

Be well

[Jetsun]

It sounds like you were given a great deal in just two ceremonies! quite often people have to develop a relationship with the plant over time and go through a great deal of purging before the plant will reveal many of it's secrets. Typically they say you need three ceremonies to get to the depth, the first is more about physical cleansing, the second emotional and the third spiritual purging, so maybe more will be revealed when you have a third ceremony although it sounds like you have quite a clean system already.

 

I can't really comment much on your positive experience as I was not given any one consciousness type experience to compare to but I had similar thing of being caught in mind loops and feeling of loosing my mind, the purging out of both ends can release these loops, you can literally shit out your outdated dead patterns and mind loops. I haven't heard of anyone gaining complete ego release through this, it's more about just releasing what is already dead inside of us, the feeling terrible can just be your soul and emotional issues coming into the physical realm in order to be released, but I wouldn't over analyse things too much what is revealed to you is revealed generally it's not stuff you can work out with your mind.

[HandsInTime]

I truly did enjoy reading about your experiences. Consider posting them on erowid! As for the chop wood, carry fire...where do you place these experiences? How do you organize them, and use them in your daily life? How do you take what happened to you and show it to the world? These are not easy questions, but important ones. Take a break from the ceremonies, take a break from routine, and take a break from altered consciousness. What you've experienced is very powerful and something that will take a long time to process. In my experience, as you reflect on your process and your experiences, in a gentle and not pressing manner, the insights you are looking for will appear to you in your daily life. Just as you talked about how the feeling faded, not so much the memory, one of these days while you are chopping wood and carrying water, the feeling will return. Remember the feedback loop of the mind...and be wary of it.

[Seth Ananda]

 

Then these assumptions:

1/3 insight: Ayahuasca made me feel miserable to show me my egoic mind.

2/3 insight: My egoic mind made me feel miserable in order to maintain control.

3/3 insight: I myself made me feel miserable because I fell for the egoic mind's bluff. Nothing bad is going to happen if I vomit, nothing is even happening to my mind, except that I free myself of the ego's dominance over my heart. There's nothing to fear but fear itself, right? So it would be an irrational fear being triggered, because there is nothing behind it.

 

Nice

 

But one thing I tell you: During the trip, I kept telling me: "In case you forget a lot of this, remember this one thing: NEVER TAKE A SECOND GLASS!".

 

What? Forget that! I go for seconds, thirds and even 4ths if its available.

Its an amazing medicine isn't it.

[oildrops]

It sounds like you were given a great deal in just two ceremonies! quite often people have to develop a relationship with the plant over time and go through a great deal of purging before the plant will reveal many of it's secrets. Typically they say you need three ceremonies to get to the depth, the first is more about physical cleansing, the second emotional and the third spiritual purging, so maybe more will be revealed when you have a third ceremony although it sounds like you have quite a clean system already.

 

 

It is good to establish that relationship, also for yourself to be able to trust and surrender. I haven't tried it, but it seems to do wonderful things for people.

[Owledge]

Your reaction and your experience are exactly what they had to be as you are.

That is exactly what was being shown you.

That is my understanding, too. The ayahuasca experience is almost like you are doing yourself a favor. It cannot be anything else than your very personal learning process. I guess that's why many times aspects of the experience felt like I've read them in my own autobiography.

 

Typically they say you need three ceremonies to get to the depth, the first is more about physical cleansing, the second emotional and the third spiritual purging

The more I think about this, the less I can separate those three. I think it's an arbitrary distinction made by judging the cover. All those aspects (if you even want to distinguish them in the first place) are interconnected. Everything we do is physical, emotional and spiritual.

 

I truly did enjoy reading about your experiences.

Funny how my insights are already at work here. I really enjoy hearing that you enjoyed it. And since we are both connected to One, it makes perfect sense.

Or do you not enjoy hearing that I enjoyed hearing that you enjoyed it?

I am slowly getting the fractal joke of reality.

If there is no beginning and no end, there cannot be anything. And where there is absolutely nothing, there is no restriction to what could be, so there could just as well be everything. ( Just random thoughts here. )

 

...where do you place these experiences? How do you organize them, and use them in your daily life? How do you take what happened to you and show it to the world? ... What you've experienced is very powerful and something that will take a long time to process.

You know, those experiences are really helping me to accept and even greatly enjoy my powerful ( if somewhat imbalanced with heart - or maybe not ) intellect. I think the biggest part of the processing actually takes me 1-2 days, because I'm a pondering phreak. Important for me is that I have to remember the lessons. But the plant makes me understand deeper and deeper how foolish and unnecessary it is to give energy to painful experiences of the past. At least now that I have this great teacher. Before that, my behavior was probably exactly what was required for the path I chose.

Those by the way are pains that weren't expressed I believe. Thus it is a good idea to not avoid negative emotions when the situation makes you have them. You are being sincere to yourself that way and can find your way easier. When you store stuff inside, it's like throwing an anchor that ties you to that moment, while life goes on, so your personality gets desynchronized to the flow of reality.

 

What? Forget that! I go for seconds, thirds and even 4ths if its available.

Its an amazing medicine isn't it.

Yeah, today I already feel different. Braver, less afraid. It is great that I can fully trust the plant, because then every fear cannot be 'justified' as being based on the teacher's flaws, and thus I am clearly seeing how I am to blame for having it.

 

--------

 

EDIT: I just came up with a good metaphor for the despair of the situation of perceiving the higher state:

Imagine you get kidnapped by people and put in a prison cell. You try to figure out why they did this and to get out of that situation, but to your kidnappers, talking itself and any interaction between you and them is considered an insult and a threat, so when you try to ask them why they did this to you, your imprisonment situation will only get worse. Trying to figure it out will be punished. Your only option is to not talk but observe and accept your current situation, but then you are afraid you might get so used to it that you don't want to leave and go back to your 'free' life.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Owledge

[64changes]

Anyone else here read "V for Vendetta"?

Not the film, but the book.

 

This is very similar to what V's character was trying to teach Evey.

In order to see, you must let go, the more you hold on, the worse it'll get.

 

A very old story, and one we should be teaching every 16 year old before they leave school.IMHO.

[Owledge]

Very interesting. Can you please give me some context around that passage of the book?

[64changes]

Paraphrasing, a lot.

V has Evey captured, imprisoned, tortured, for weeks, months even.

Evey's only solace during this time is a small text written by hand on loo paper by the previous cell occupant, a young lesbian actress, who recalls all the happy times in her short life onto this tiny paper.

Which Evey hides and re-reads repeatedly during her incarceration.

After x time Evey is told she will be taken to the chemical sheds and shot.

To which she complies without fear or resistance.

 

At which point, V reveals the whole capture, imprisonment, torture thing was an elaborate charade to get her to give up everything but her faith. Once Evey looses her fear she is awakened to reality fully.

 

Thus matching V's own awakening at the hands of his captors during his stay at a Lark Hill.

 

I'd recommend you read the book though. Well worth it.

[64changes]

From the movie script:

 

 

[Evey is allowed to leave her prison unexpectedly and finds she was actually in V's lair the whole time]

V:[Entering] Hello, Evey.

Evey: ..You...it was you...

V: [quietly] Yeah.

Evey: [gestures behind her] That wasn't real... Is Gordon-?

V: I'm sorry, but Mr. Deitrich's dead. I thought they'd arrest him, but when they found a Koran in his house, they had him executed.

Evey: [whispers] Oh God..

V: Fortunately, I got to you before they did.

Evey: You got to me? You did this to me? You cut my hair? You tortured me? You tortured me! Why?

V: You said you wanted to live without fear. I wish there'd been an easier way, but there wasn't.

Evey: [whispers] Oh, my God!

V: I know you may never forgive me, but nor will you ever understand how hard it was for me to do what I did. Every day, I saw in myself everything you see in me now. Every day, I wanted to end it. But each time you refused to give in, I knew I couldn't.

Evey: You're sick! You're evil!

V: You could have ended it, Evey. You could have given in, but you didn't. Why?

Evey: Leave me alone! I hate you!

V: That's it! See, at first, I thought it was hate too. Hate was all I knew. It built my world, imprisoned me, taught me how to eat, how to drink, how to breathe. I thought I'd die with all the hate in my veins. But then something happened. It happened to me, just as it happened to you.

Evey: Shut up! I don't want to hear your lies!

V: Your own father said that artists use lies to tell the truth. Yes, I created a lie, but because you believed it, you found something true about yourself.

Evey: No...

V: What was true in that cell is just as true now. What you felt in there has nothing to do with me.

Evey: I CAN'T FEEL ANYTHING ANYMORE!

V: Don't run from it, Evey. You've been running all your life.

Evey: [gasping] I can't... can't breathe... Asthma... When I was little... [collapses while V catches her]

V: Listen to me, Evey. This may be the most important moment of your life. Commit to it. They took your parents from you. They took your brother from you. They put you in a cell and took everything they could take except your life. And you believed that was all there was, didn't you? The only thing you had left was your life, but it wasn't, was it?

Evey: Oh... please...

V: You found something else. In that cell, you found something that mattered more to you than life. Because when they threatened to kill you unless you gave them what they wanted... you told them you'd rather die. You faced your death, Evey. You were calm. You were still. Try to feel now what you felt then.

[Owledge]

Yes, I've seen the movie and I love it.

Thank you for reminding me of the connection.

 

It's interesting how shying away from (ego-)death and giving in to it can both be healing. Next time I take ayahuasca, I hope I will be able to surrender to oneness and not be afraid to let the ego die. Then again... she rarely does what we expect her to do. It remains exciting.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Owledge

[eye_of_the_storm]

Hello

 

thanks for directing me here

 

I liked the part about giving energy to the past = anchor

 

You also mentioned more less? that you were the author/ creator of your own reality? your experience ... so maybe the plant is not separate from you... maybe the effect of the plant is to simply allow you to experience yourself?

 

hence why everyone's experience is "tailor made"

 

The awe etc that you experienced for the plant... maybe the awe of you/ your "true self"

 

The prison was this I self or ego / identity = your prison warden.

 

I believe there are different levels of ego / identity - maybe we have trapped / limited ourselves somehow to this present image...forgetting our Divine Self / Personality... maybe you are worried about realizing your Awesomeness... but also this could be from conditioning or the idea of "no-self" the damn buddhist idea of being extinguished completely... a lot of things (extreme/ misleading) lead one astray in buddhism i feel - you said you saw the outline of a buddha? buddha is just another projection?

 

Slow realization or instant the end result will be the same?

 

I believe in the One and the Many. For the sake of complexity / novelty / eternal arising, expansion, evolution the best solution would be for the One (ground of being?) to divide into the infinite... and allow the infinite to evolve as individuals into the infinite - mutual interdependent arising

 

^ for that to take place the One and the Many need consciousness / memory (infinite) / Self Knowing.

 

Say the human for example it is only through self knowing even at a mundane level that we are able to function/ progress/ understand. Like the Fibonacci sequence 0,1,1,2,3,5 etc

 

How did the 0 become 1 though is the interesting part or the Great Mystery

 

Seem folks are trying to get back to 0? I think to understand 0 is important to progressing forward to 144 and so on... but reaching 0 is not the end goal

 

Would it be like us trying to climb back into our mothers womb? to the primordial state? and becoming unborn hm

[64changes]

Pre-natal qi, like breathing liquid can be a scary place.

But ultimately, we all did it for 9 months or so.

[Owledge]

@Mokona

"You also mentioned more less? that you were the author/ creator of your own reality? your experience ... so maybe the plant is not separate from you... maybe the effect of the plant is to simply allow you to experience yourself?

 

hence why everyone's experience is "tailor made"

 

The awe etc that you experienced for the plant... maybe the awe of you/ your "true self""

 

That could very much be the case. You gradually discover how 'you' are more and more, and at each level, you consult your own inner wisdom. People might object and say that eventually they talked to other sentient beings, but hey, at some point you don't distinguish between yourself and others anymore, right? So from that level of awareness, you'd still be talking to yourself.

 

"I believe there are different levels of ego / identity - maybe we have trapped / limited ourselves somehow to this present image...forgetting our Divine Self / Personality... maybe you are worried about realizing your Awesomeness... but also this could be from conditioning or the idea of "no-self" the damn buddhist idea of being extinguished completely... a lot of things (extreme/ misleading) lead one astray in buddhism i feel - you said you saw the outline of a buddha? buddha is just another projection?"

 

Maybe it's a delusion to think of yourself as trapped as if there are malicious forces at work. This is the perception of a threat, and that is fear-based, and fear-based behavior is unwise.

Eventually you might discover that those allegedly malicious forces are no-one but yourself, and then you can accept them as part of the game. As I hinted at, my personal ayahuasca experience kind of explained to me that if everybody and everything returned to the source, then what's the point of that state? The 'illusion' exists merely because there is a cause for it to exist, a cause that originates from the source, and that is sufficient justification.

 

The point is also that even if you saw stuff from past lives, what was before all those lives? You were separated from Oneness, right? But that oneness spawns new separations all the time, right? So what's the point of spending your lifetime in pursuit of returning to the Source? If you return, the show will go on anyway. Another part of you will get separated and go through lives.

Based on those widely accepted models, the whole strive to abandon everything of the so-called illusion seems ludicrous. Then again, that, too, is part of the game.

 

"Slow realization or instant the end result will be the same?"

 

Well, that's an interesting question. It seems from my own and others' experiences that drinking ayahuasca is more useful than smoking DMT because it gives you the time to process the experience, so your intellect can gain insights more distinctly and change itself, while a short and more harsh experience might leave more of a temporary emotional effect.

But there might be many exceptions to the rule.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Owledge

[eye_of_the_storm]

Maybe it's a delusion to think of yourself as trapped as if there are malicious forces at work. This is the perception of a threat, and that is fear-based, and fear-based behavior is unwise.

 

I was referring to trapping ourselves, like in the loops you mentioned?

 

But also there may be malicious intent at work on the part of others to a degree in terms of entrapment... depending how susceptible one is.

 

It is proven malicious intent exists - psychopaths... which are more numerous than one would expect - termed an intraspecies predator.

 

I suppose all are aware of black magicians and source energy being neutral (true or not i don't know)?... one can use it for "good" or "evil"

 

^ I am not sure if such ideas exist in Taoist thought... I have read Taoist texts referring to demons but in regard to what is the nature of evil? its purpose etc of said demons < maybe arise through ignorance / misunderstanding etc.

 

One could refer to say the ancient western world (or eastern) and the burning of knowledge and the slaughter of wise ones... there seems to be intent from somewhere to destroy consciousness / awareness... as much as there is an intent to become conscious / aware.

 

I would be interested say if 1000 Taoist monks had word of 1000 soldiers coming to destroy them and their knowledge, what action they would take.

 

Would they except their "fate" and decide this is the work of the Tao and should yield to it... or perhaps the Tao is forcing them into action... and bringing the "mundane" world to them... what is the use of a "liberated" man/woman if his brothers/sisters are starving to death.

 

I heard a story of a Taoist monk who had been cultivating energy for 4000 years in the mountains but couldn't transcend...

 

Or another of a Buddhist monk who believed he had finally attained peace(in the mountains) came "down" to the "mundane" world and completely lost it.

 

Perhaps "evil" is to strengthen the resolve of the seeker... I once was trying to escape this world by means of enlightenment believing that this world is MAYA, illusion and everything here was completely worthless, full of suffering etc

 

Or perhaps evil is "when good men do nothing"

 

I think we need to understand the "shadow" just as much as the "light"

 

Say a monk will refuse to kill (fear of creating karma for his/herself)and in the process his entire village + himself are killed... which is the greater "evil"

 

^ I suppose this could be another thread ... but still applies

 

I agree with you statements

[Owledge]

It is proven malicious intent exists - psychopaths... which are more numerous than one would expect - termed an intraspecies predator.

Predator and prey are choices of views. They bring with it a whole set of attributes attached to those labels.

More numerous than who would expect? You? Or what you assume others think?

Messing with your mind a little here.

 

^ I am not sure if such ideas exist in Taoist thought... I have read Taoist texts referring to demons but in regard to what is the nature of evil? its purpose etc of said demons < maybe arise through ignorance / misunderstanding etc.

Considering that there allegedly are tulpas - materialized thought forms, it could be that demons are just that - thought forms that eventually take on a life of their own - because their creator becomes controlled by those fears. I think this idea is even held by some taoists and no novel thought.

 

One could refer to say the ancient western world (or eastern) and the burning of knowledge and the slaughter of wise ones... there seems to be intent from somewhere to destroy consciousness / awareness... as much as there is an intent to become conscious / aware.

Some ideas: Understanding nourishes compassion. Fear keeps the perception superficial. People who are very afraid and acting on that - can you speak of malicious intent? Is it the same awareness that you gain along with compassion? Aren't they slaves to the master that is fear? There is that saying: Blinded by fear. And people can overlook the most obvious stuff when they are afraid of it. But when you aren't afraid of anything, there is no need to choose not to see anything.

 

I would be interested say if 1000 Taoist monks had word of 1000 soldiers coming to destroy them and their knowledge, what action they would take.

There is that funny saying: When you hit a buddhist, they will bear it and not hit back. When you hit a taoist, there's no telling what will happen. That embodies so much the all-embracing philosophy of taoism.

 

Would they except their "fate" and decide this is the work of the Tao and should yield to it... or perhaps the Tao is forcing them into action... and bringing the "mundane" world to them... what is the use of a "liberated" man/woman if his brothers/sisters are starving to death.

If you feel forced into action by the tao, then you don't embody it. You live the tao. Every monk would make their own choice of how to deal with the situation, and if they all are truly living the tao, then their reactions might still be very different. There might be a common thread, but since taoism seems less doctrine-based than buddhism, expect less similarity in behavior than if it were a buddhist monastery.

 

I heard a story of a Taoist monk who had been cultivating energy for 4000 years in the mountains but couldn't transcend...

 

Or another of a Buddhist monk who believed he had finally attained peace(in the mountains) came "down" to the "mundane" world and completely lost it.

I see a 'time off' as sometimes useful when there is too much burden, but the two cases are clearly an escape. In the latter case, the monk was blessed with his folly that made him come down and learn the next lesson.

 

Perhaps "evil" is to strengthen the resolve of the seeker... I once was trying to escape this world by means of enlightenment believing that this world is MAYA, illusion and everything here was completely worthless, full of suffering etc

You only see something as the problem until you see where it is coming from. Don't judge. Don't see "evil" as a problem, but if you see it as a benevolent helper, a teacher, that, too, is a narrow view, that, too, is labeling. You might end up worshipping it, and that's what people do that were subject to so much pain that they have to cherish it in order to give meaning to all their suffering. Why not simply be aware of all the cause and effect. Then relaxation sets in. You will see: "Evil" can harm people, and it can help people. Full stop. Work with observation. Taoism is a natural science/religion. Observe nature. Draw logical conclusions. Don't label or choose to believe ideas because they suit you.

I think awareness of everything and judging of nothing is a very enlightened state of being.

 

I think we need to understand the "shadow" just as much as the "light"

Well, duh! Are we in a taoist forum?

 

Say a monk will refuse to kill (fear of creating karma for his/herself)and in the process his entire village + himself are killed... which is the greater "evil"

The monk cannot avoid creating karma. By not killing, he creates karma as well, as you depicted so well by the fact that the whole village was killed. Now it begins to become personal philosophy or psychology. If the monk had decided to fight in order to defend the village, he would have engaged in politics, judging that the attackers are wrong or that their lives can be ended, but not those of the villagers.

If you look at it from the view of fear: If overcoming fear is a basic task in spirituality, then the monk would have to identify his personal fears and then try to overcome them. If he's afraid of dying, he will hide. If he's afraid of losing his loved ones, he will defend them. A predicament. See how fear MAKES this dramatic theater play that is life? Sometimes there are no simple answers.

 

^ I suppose this could be another thread ... but still applies

Since I am, for quite some time, practicing letting go of the desire for control, I acknowledge that all my actions contribute to what is written in this thread of mine, so if I wanted to keep "off topic" stuff out of it, I would deny responsibility for my actions, or at least prevent them from having fruitful consequences. I would create an inner conflict and project it outwards. (I still could ask it though if I felt the need for it, thus acknowledging fears connected to it if there are some.)

 

Abandoning control can restore curiosity about where the journey is going. And ayahuasca... well, people might tell you not to read so much about it before making your own experiences. You know what? It doesn't matter. It will surprise you anyway, no matter what you do. And if you expect a surprise too much, it might not. It's really good at establishing authority in that way. But that's just my own experiences.

 

You may write what you like in my threads. I am not so self-important that I fear my writings becoming overlooked. I might fear it a bit for other reasons, but as I hinted at, I make all the decisions. Everybody does.

 

 

...Aw, I've written so much. Maybe you can find some cherries in there to pick.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Owledge

[eye_of_the_storm]

More numerous than who would expect? You? Or what you assume others think?

 

Yes more numerous than I would expect and I assume others

 

to assume is both dangerous and life saving (I assume as with everything else written)

 

materialized thought forms... no novel thought

 

interesting indeed

 

Understanding nourishes compassion. Fear keeps the perception superficial.

 

I agree

 

There is that funny saying: When you hit a buddhist, they will bear it and not hit back. When you hit a taoist, there's no telling what will happen. That embodies so much the all-embracing philosophy of taoism.

 

cool - I have to look deeper into Taoism - I have read the TTC a couple of times... the first time I was like wow! this is perfect no conflict arose, i was at ease with it and felt it to be the closest thing to truth i had ever read.

 

Other things I have aversion to instantly < conflicting with my inner sense?

 

^ is this the flow of the Tao? easy when it is in alignment with - conflict when not... it is biased by personal belief/ understanding and so on. Or something else?

 

^ would this be considered judging things?

I think we need to understand the "shadow" just as much as the "light"

Well, duh! Are we in a taoist forum? hahah yeh...

 

Just to be clear, On a global scale I have seen a lot of harm done to no apparent help/ benefit that I can see - If one has studied say the Chinese "Cultural Revolution" or the Bolshevik "Revolution" ... or corruption rampant in governments/ military, corporations etc ... i believe it would be negligent to suggest paradoxes?

 

Though they are internally (entirely - I thought to write but internally came out haha) valid

 

So we move from a centered place - like the mushin no shin (mind of no mind) that the Zen/ Japanese Samurai moved from?

 

Fear isn't my concern really in what i am trying to address here in terms of "evil" - i suppose i am addressing "evil" in terms of the anger that arises from injustice / conscious malicious intent and the want to protect, save etc (compassion, empathy?) and what is the best way to respond to it, or as some would suggest not responding and being consumed by it... but I suppose it all has to do with spontaneous arising and how one feels at the time... unlike Buddhism, Taoism allows a natural response to the moment rather than conditioned response /

 

Perhaps one can have too much compassion? In Tibetan Buddhism there is a story of a Buddha who shattered into 1000 "pieces" because he couldn't help everyone.

 

I believe one can maintain peace and anger(not anger, something that has the fire of anger but... ignited will power?) at the same time

 

Perhaps the anger arises too from a feeling/ perception of being powerless to do anything about it

 

I would like to interact with the plant world at some stage

Edited April 18, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Owledge]

(deleted)

Edited April 29, 2012 by Owledge

[eye_of_the_storm]

(deleted)

 

?

[Owledge]

I wrote an account of my recent ayahuasca experiences and it didn't feel wise to write it down, because it's probably highly metaphorical. I remembered some stuff from the earlier ones, but it's the same stuff all the time and I can't make much sense of it. Other people keep talking about how they are shown messages that make sense to them, make them know what to do or recognize the source of a problem, but in my case, it's not like that. All I can do is not focus on any impression, but only on the outcome, and cultivate that.

It's almost as if the plant tries to force me into total awakening, and I'm not ready for such a big step.

I mean... surely I have a lot of stuff I can work on, but why am I confronted with the same stuff all the time? Is nearly everybody else past the barrier in me? Do I have to break through that extremely frightening barrier before I can receive 'more ordinary' help for living a good life?

 

But it's not like there is no stuff I can take away from the experiences, it's just confusing that no-one seems to be able to give me advice based on my experiences - that it's so unlike anything I've read so far from other people.

If I take the things I saw and felt as purely random, only serving a specific purpose, then I can only guess that I have to resolve an issue of being torn, being between two worlds. Who knows... maybe I have to cultivate what I have learned in normal life a lot and reach a breakthrough there, before the ayahuasca visions change. Maybe the plant won't help me with specifics unless it knows what direction I want to go. (Not that I don't know, but another direction might be active less consciously.)

 

Seems there is an imbalance between mind, heart and root. When root and heart are strengthened, the mind can handle more profound insights. So far, I used my powerful mind to dig into the very basics of reality, and despite repeated attempts to overcome the fear connected to it, I failed. I don't even want to talk about the details anymore, because it sabotages my attempts at restoring balance. Now I actually understand the words I spoke to the coordinator: "I see too much. I have been shown everything. I just wish I could forget all that."

Let's just say that the colorful dreamer-buddha I saw and called 'the source' was only something my mind could deal with. There was a wholly different level I dug into that was so frightening that I chose to forget about it immediately after the trip. And the recent trips made me remember what it was, but it was still very frightening, and the step coming after that - total self-annihilation - was an impossible barrier in that state.

I don't intend to do any more ayahuasca soon, and the same probably applies to other psychedelics.

It is unhealthy to (want to) know more than you can handle. The mind should only be used in tandem and balance with the heart.

 

So I realized that there is a profound difference between

1) hearing a statement and deeply BELIEVING it to be true, and

2) KNOWING it is true.

Once you attain deep knowledge of a truth, your mind can't fool itself about it, and if the implications of that truth are harmful for the ego or for fears you can't get rid of, then it becomes frightening.

Here's an example: You might think that seeing the future is an awesome gift, but if you KNOW that what you see is the future, the implications of that can mess up your whole view on reality and scare you shitless. ... I admire people who are confronted with death in their ayahuasca experience and are ready to face it. (Because it's like in a dream: You don't know that it's 'just psychedelic'. It only works if you are actually ready to die.)

Edited April 30, 2012 by Owledge

[eye_of_the_storm]

I have contemplated "self-annihilation", I figure that it will have to come sooner or later... this personality will die, from dreams - I have been other people/ actors? something ties them together though..which is beyond them / behind the mask.

 

So maybe we both die and are born at the same time into our fullest expression.

 

I have one assurance and that is, that ultimately I AM THE GREAT TAO (WE ARE)..

 

Chuang Tzu and the Butterfly? usually we perceive being either Chuang Tzu or the Butterfly / each not knowing of the other - What if we can perceive both at the same time? To know you are both? to know you are many... you may die one death but gain infinity.

 

Or you are this consciousness dreaming of all these different experiences... So maybe Chuang Tzu isnt both... but is just Chuang Tzu dreaming of being a butterfly.

 

I sometimes do a mirror meditation... staring at this body... disconnecting from it... not identify with it in anyway (I find this quite simple)... and the body becomes this total foreign thing... which can be scary seeing this stranger in the mirror staring back at you... if I look longer my body seems to disappear and I can see the wall behind "me" / observation point...

 

perhaps once you realize you are not the body / beyond it... perhaps one is not the personality (just another body / vessel / mask that we play with)

 

so perhaps the "self annihilation" is simply taking off the mask

 

^^ all guess work - @ present I can't imagine what you have experienced directly

 

or how I would react in a similar situation

 

or that you haven't contemplated these things already

 

I guess your experience is more intense? than others because you are at a different level/ degree

 

junior league / a league / pros etc

 

maybe they are getting solutions to junior league... but your beyond that now... we only get what we can handle?

 

I have another thought

 

Perhaps you need to take this plant head on... do not yield to it... command it... with great will / authority (with respect )- have clear intentions beforehand... what you want to achieve + questions that you want to ask, go in prepd.

 

if the plant tries to overwhelm you, push forward, never surrender - tame it.

 

Will is everything without will = self annihilation

 

- havn't a clue - hope this is of some use

 

peace!

 

ps: youve had similar experiences a couple of times but have been able to keep it at bay? so you know that you are in control ultimately

 

Maybe even ask it, What lies beyond this "point of no return" what am I to expect if I take this leap? What are the alternatives?

Edited April 30, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

double / replied / quotes myself

Edited April 30, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Owledge]

Maybe even ask it, What lies beyond this "point of no return" what am I to expect if I take this leap? What are the alternatives?

Yeah, for some reason I didn't form thoughts like that. I simply tried to handle the fear. But to some degree I entered the experiences with questions and aims, but didn't get any message. The only communication were the visions with the frightening implications. I guess at that point I was too scared to form questions.