............

[Ya Mu]

I no longer support this thread

It was wiped out by those that wish to throw insults and derail from topic

 

 

This was posted on another thread. Re-posted here for it's own topic.

 

Pain is not the issue, nor is it the cause of suffering.

 

The real issue, perhaps, is the overwhelming desire of most people to want to lead a pain-free life?

 

Pain can be a blessing at times. For one, it can be a reminder that we are mortals, and as such, we have a limited lifespan. It can be a useful wake-up call to bring us to the realization that life is precious and that we ought to cherish and be grateful for the simple gifts that are abundantly available to us right now. I think what we keep our focus on most of the time makes a difference in our attitude towards managing pain.

 

I have friends who are keen practitioners of pain-free living. They live like gods, doing everything within their means to ensure that the possibility of pain is minimized. While their motivation appears sane and normal on some level, deep inside, what they all appear fearful of are the inevitable pains and potentially agonizing effects of old age, dying and death.

 

If they asked for my advice to lead a fulfilling and meaningful life, i would tell them to think less of their own satisfaction - instead, try to devote more of their time and money towards alleviating the mental and physical anguish of those who are really in 'pain', like doing volunteer work with homeless people, the aged, and children who are terminally ill. This then becomes a real purpose... to remove self-cherishing, which is the root cause of the world's problems.

Pain certainly can be the "real issue", not due to the pain itself but due to the cause of the pain. We should listen instead of ignore.

 

"...instead, try to devote more of their time and money towards alleviating the mental and physical anguish of those who are really in 'pain'"

Absolutely; lots of people out there in pain.

 

I have never been impressed with pain management techniques. Most of the time these are drug oriented and the drugs have side effects. Pain elimination techniques - much better.

 

Pain can be a wake up call and motivate us to do drastic things that we wouldn't have possibly done without the pain. Amazingly and profound, sometimes.

 

Pain can also be an unrelenting hinder to a person's life and their Spirituality. That constant thing that prevents many people from going deeper into themselves. It is indeed profound to see the change that happens in these people when the pain is eliminated.

 

I know I have seen both of these circumstances personally (due to 2 car wrecks and two falls and hard living) and professionally over the 35 years with working in-clinic with people in intense pain. The key, from the standpoint of someone trying to help others, is to learn to recognize which is happening. Root cause = much more important than the pain itself.

 

This is one of the very reasons to practice high level medicine instead of lower level.

 

Forms of Chinese Medicine:

 

Low level - Physical

Mid level - Physical & mental

High Level - Goal of helping a person find & fulfill their destiny (that which they themselves choose)

Edited April 9, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Sifu ReL]

is depression a form of pain?

[baiqi]

is depression a form of pain?

 

I'd say no. It is a kind of suffering, which is not the same in my opinion.

 

A pain doesn't last, although it can be very intense. Suffering is a state.

[Protector]

There's a nei gong that uses pain as the source

And there's an even more famous practice in monasteries that uses different types of pain

Edited March 31, 2012 by Sinfest

[Mokona]

There's a nei gong that uses pain as the source

And there's an even more famous practice in monasteries that uses different types of pain

Its because any heightened emotion can increase energy, even the negative ones. But is that how you want to train your body when positive states feel so much better?

[Protector]

These "positive" states numb your nervous system with drugs your body is creating

[Aaron]

First differentiating between suffering and pain is somewhat difficult, because pain does cause one to suffer and one cannot suffer unless one first experiences emotional or physical pain.

 

Some things that come to mind when you talk about pain:

 

Pain is the touchstone of change.

 

Man is oftentimes a stubborn creature, refusing to change unless something unpleasant directs them to want to change, in this example pain is beneficial, because it causes one to try to better their lives. The highest spiritual practitioners have all been influenced by suffering to some degree.

 

Diminishing one's desires reduces the causes of suffering.

If one diminishes one's desires and focuses on their needs, rather than their wants, then they are far less apt to experience suffering. This is true for most philosophies. It's one of the reasons why greed is looked down upon, because it invariably leads to suffering, whether it is the greedy person suffering because they cannot get enough, or they cause others to suffer because they take what they have.

 

Sympathy for others leads to a greater awareness of one's purpose.

In nearly every philosophy and religion, sympathy, whether you call it compassion or love, is of paramount importance when one is developing a spiritual nature. This is the reason why you find very few racists, bigots, thieves, and murderers amongst the saints of the world's religions. Understanding the nature of suffering precludes these things, because in understanding suffering, you understand the direct link you have to all things. This is why the sage puts others before himself and the Buddha taught the need for compassion for all things. This isn't just an Eastern idea either, in fact Judaism and Christianity are founded upon these principles as well. It seems that the one underlying truth that we all seem to be aware of is the need to help our fellow man in order to help ourselves.

 

-----

 

Anyways, this is an interesting topic, but one that can be misunderstood, especially with people trying to avoid pain. Pain is necessary, as others have stated, because it allows us to appreciate our lives. I think the Tao Teh Ching explains this quite well in chapter 13 which state:

 

 

 

"Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.

Prize calamities as your own body."

 

Why should we "welcome disgrace as a pleasant

surprise"?

Because a lowly state is a boon:

Getting it is a pleasant surprise,

And so is losing it!

That is why we should "welcome disgrace as a pleasant

surprise."

 

Why should we "prize calamities as our own body"?

Because our body is the very source of our calamities.

If we have no body, what calamities can we have?

 

Hence, only he who is willing to give his body for the

sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world.

Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being the

steward of the world. -John C. H. Wu

 

 

Aaron

[Ya Mu]

One thing I would like to see is that if anyone who posts wishes to, it would be interesting to see if they personally were aware of/experienced physical pain and if so, was it short term or long term. If it was short term, how do you think the same pain long term would effect you if you had to simply attempt to deal with it? I do realize the majority here who are younger probably have only experienced temporary physical pain (if that) so it is difficult for those people to comprehend.

[Ya Mu]

... Pain is necessary, as others have stated, because it allows us to appreciate our lives. ...

Aaron

Nope; one can experience pain and not learn a thing from it. It CAN be a wake up call and it can also be a hindrance. Not NECESSARY. Many people do just fine without it. It certainly can be a motivating factor, if needed for any particular person at any particular time, but not necessarily necessary.

"Getting it is a pleasant surprise,"

IF pain is in our lives we should attempt to learn from it and not use mental masturbation of indulgence as in "poor poor pitiful me..." If you really think "a pleasant surprise" of pain is such a good thing I have a hammer that does a really good job of giving one pain - don't ask me how I know - do you want to borrow it for your very own "pleasant surprise"? I was enlightened by it! (several cuss words which were bound to weigh something left my body).

[Jetsun]

I have heard that as you go through cultivation as your body adjusts to more healthy postures after years of wrong alignment your body goes through a lot of pain as the old patterns and tensions resist the process, which is good positive pain. Apparently this process had a name in Taoism as bone crunching and adjusting or something like that, I have heard the teacher Yap Soon Yeong talk about this process how after a good Qigong or healing session if your bones and body painfully ache that is a really good sign of progress.

[Seth Ananda]

This was posted on another thread. Re-posted here for it's own topic.

 

 

Pain certainly can be the "real issue", not due to the pain itself but due to the cause of the pain. We should listen instead of ignore.

 

"...instead, try to devote more of their time and money towards alleviating the mental and physical anguish of those who are really in 'pain'"

Absolutely; lots of people out there in pain.

 

I have never been impressed with pain management techniques. Most of the time these are drug oriented and the drugs have side effects. Pain elimination techniques - much better.

 

Pain can be a wake up call and motivate us to do drastic things that we wouldn't have possibly done without the pain. Amazingly and profound, sometimes.

 

Pain can also be an unrelenting hinder to a person's life and their Spirituality. That constant thing that prevents many people from going deeper into themselves. It is indeed profound to see the change that happens in these people when the pain is eliminated.

 

I know I have seen both of these circumstances personally (due to 2 car wrecks and two falls and hard living) and professionally over the 35 years with working in-clinic with people in intense pain. The key, from the standpoint of someone trying to help others, is to learn to recognize which is happening. Root cause = much more important than the pain itself.

 

This is one of the very reasons to practice high level medicine instead of lower level.

 

Forms of Chinese Medicine:

 

Low level - Physical

Mid level - Physical & mental

High Level - Goal of helping a person find & fulfill their destiny (that which they themselves choose)

Hell yeah, good post.

My longest period of pain came in my early 20's when I couldn't afford a dentist. Over 2 years my tooth rotted down to the gum, leaving the nerve alive and sticking up. it ached constantly, getting more intense over time, and if something brushed the nerve it would floor me. It wasn't till I was turning green and nearly passing out constantly that I got taken to the dental hospital.

 

I think there were probably good sides to this experience, but definitely outweighed by the negative.

The fortitude I built up as a resistance also caused me to be less present in my body, which to me is a negative thing.

Less present in the body = Less effective in the world.

Pain makes us disassociate generally and that is never good,[in my book] as your life will suffer equally.

 

Probably one of the best things was after, getting to look at the tooth stump.

I kept it, and it is a strong reminder to love myself more. At the time I had deep levels of self loathing, as I had been brought up believing I was human filth.

 

Good ol christian reality

[Ya Mu]

I have heard that as you go through cultivation as your body adjusts to more healthy postures after years of wrong alignment your body goes through a lot of pain as the old patterns and tensions resist the process, which is good positive pain. Apparently this process had a name in Taoism as bone crunching and adjusting or something like that, I have heard the teacher Yap Soon Yeong talk about this process how after a good Qigong or healing session if your bones and body painfully ache that is a really good sign of progress.

It is not just about posture. What can happen is that when a person begins a practice of qigong the qi can then attempt to remove the stagnations in the body. This can be really quick, as in an instant self bone manipulation or it can be a longer process. When the qi hits the stagnation it certainly can hurt worse as it is attempting to flow through. I imagine quite a few people start a practice then quit when this happens versus sticking it out and hopefully feeling better.

[Protector]

When people talk about stress, they are actually talking about anxiety most of the time

Stress is when you are influenced by your stressor directly.

When there's anxiety, the stressor is not present but a person still goes on and on about it.

 

If you remember about this very moment, most of the pain depression and stress will be gone, it's all imaginary.

 

Now then the real pain is awesome! It's energy!

It likes to show itself after some resistance

Monks take vows of celibacy, silence, and other stuff to gain more chi through resistance

Some don't know they're gaining chi but they do anyway, that's why some holymen have almost superpowers

 

When energy gets compressed, it creates pressure (chi, pressure, get it?)

When you're fasting, hunger becomes pain, that pain you turn into energy

 

When you don't talk around your friends for a long while or just be mostly silent, whatever you say later becomes more interesting then whatever the person who talks all the time says

That talking person looses energy but you gather more and become smarter from listening

 

Now another thing you can do is horse stance!

 

To be continued...

[suninmyeyes]

One thing I would like to see is that if anyone who posts wishes to, it would be interesting to see if they personally were aware of/experienced physical pain and if so, was it short term or long term. If it was short term, how do you think the same pain long term would effect you if you had to simply attempt to deal with it? I do realize the majority here who are younger probably have only experienced temporary physical pain (if that) so it is difficult for those people to comprehend.

I have expirienced pain over period of 3 years constantly, all my energy went for healing . Lost will for life and was meant to be dead. Life has its own way and kept me going for some reason. It was awful and wouldnt wish it on anyone.

Couldnt afford healing except few times litearlly ,so in order not to drown in own self pity and remorse and sourness and pain I have decided firmly just to love.

I dont care whatever happens I will do my utmost not to close down and start distorting in dislike and impatientce.

Love is my most powerful weapon. Love is fuller and more potent than anything else. It is easy to love when loved and everything is going smooth , but it takes courage and constant dedication to love under all circumstances (by the way I am not there yet ).

Love heals.

Would I learn this lesson otherwise or was pain nesesarry? I dont know , I like to think that yes I would, but maybe not . As it this seemed to be a sort of a battle in the inner world too with the result of a big change in astral alighment. Some big psychic block was uprooted in the process.

Pain is necesarry sometimes for some people to learn something.

Some people get used to learning through pain (mental, emotional or physical) , so that subconciously they are always seeking it and become disorientated without it.

[Ya Mu]

I have expirienced pain over period of 3 years constantly, all my energy went for healing . Lost will for life and was meant to be dead. Life has its own way and kept me going for some reason. It was awful and wouldnt wish it on anyone.

Couldnt afford healing except few times litearlly ,so in order not to drown in own self pity and remorse and sourness and pain I have decided firmly just to love.

I dont care whatever happens I will do my utmost not to close down and start distorting in dislike and impatientce.

Love is my most powerful weapon. Love is fuller and more potent than anything else. It is easy to love when loved and everything is going smooth , but it takes courage and constant dedication to love under all circumstances (by the way I am not there yet ).

Love heals.

Would I learn this lesson otherwise or was pain nesesarry? I dont know , I like to think that yes I would, but maybe not . As it this seemed to be a sort of a battle in the inner world too with the result of a big change in astral alighment. Some big psychic block was uprooted in the process.

Pain is necesarry sometimes for some people to learn something.

Some people get used to learning through pain (mental, emotional or physical) , so that subconciously they are always seeking it and become disorientated without it.

I know my own pain of many many years led me to the Chinese Medicine. I know that without this pain I just never would have sought out the medical qigong and be able to help people, and probably would have not even been interested in helping people. In this manner it was a great thing for me, a transformation from a total engineer techno-geek to a healer (uh, wait a minute, my wife tells me I am still a geek, as she sees a computer in little pieces in my workshop). But I also know if I had of simply "Listened" I would not have needed the pain as a motivator. Yes, pain can be a transforming experience, although I can certainly not recommend this route. As Seth said in his post about experiencing intense pain, the negatives can outweigh the positives.

Thanks for telling your personal story about pain. I sincerely appreciate your bravery and attitude. When we assume the "victim" status it is SO much different and makes us SO much less than saying "Hey! Wait a minute! I will no longer play the victim!"

[suninmyeyes]

I know my own pain of many many years led me to the Chinese Medicine. I know that without this pain I just never would have sought out the medical qigong and be able to help people, and probably would have not even been interested in helping people. In this manner it was a great thing for me, a transformation from a total engineer techno-geek to a healer (uh, wait a minute, my wife tells me I am still a geek, as she sees a computer in little pieces in my workshop). "But I also know if I had of simply Listened" I would not have needed the pain as a motivator. Yes, pain can be a transforming experience, although I can certainly not recommend this route. As Seth said in his post about experiencing intense pain, the negatives can outweigh the positives.

 

Intersting to hear your story .Listening is simple if you know how , otherwise one may hear , but not necesarry understand or be able to respond adequatley.

Life has unexpected ways to put her point across.

I too definetley would not reccomend pain as a chosen learning path. Yuck, not my cuppa.

[C T]

 

Life has unexpected ways to put her point across.

I too definetley would not reccomend pain as a chosen learning path. Yuck, not my cuppa.

It would be rather unwise to choose pain as a learning path one would think. But sometimes something physically debilitating, even permanently, could happen to the best of us... the question is, what do we do then?

 

http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1829

[johndoe2012]

It depends on context.

 

What Ya Mu and C T are referring to are two different things in my opinion.

 

First is [seemingly] sick qi causing the pain.

 

Second is suffering caused by the ego - aversion to the pain.

 

Both approaches are useful.

 

First can lead to obsession with elimination of pain if one is unbalanced in one's own cultivation.

 

Second can lead to coping strategies, might lead to transformation. It lead me to where I am today. Other times it seems kind of defeatist.

 

Finding a balance is not easy

 

My father suffers from multiple sclerosis. He has learned to cope with it. Would the quality of life be better if got cured? Yes.

Edited April 1, 2012 by chris d

[Birch]

My take on pain is that it has a purpose. To call attention to something that needs attending. It CAN also be protective and important in healing (see below)

 

The way I understand 'suffering' - not sure if this a Bhuddist term/concept- is that it is one's reaction to the pain that is under scrutiny. In some cultures, being able to go on despite pain is valued ('no pain, no gain').

 

What I understand about the Bhuddist concept is that suffering is any reaction to reality and that given it is a reaction, it cannot be reality itself. Only the separation from reality. Maybe I'm not getting it.

 

I think there is often a distinction made between physical and emotional pain. How much they are linked is still debated in some places, in others there is an understanding ofsome kind of impact (e.g. anger injures the liver, grief the lungs). Anecdotally we still refer to this as in the expression where someone 'dying from a broken heart' can actually happen.

 

The capacity to eliminate pain is an interesting one. IMO if pain serves a purpose (for example making a person with a broken leg avoid putting too much weight on it before it has properly healed) then is it wise to seek to eliminate it before the root cause has been resolved?

 

However, there is also the pain related to one's 'conditioning' and in which case, one might opt for voluntary suffering in order to break past it.

IMO that's the only kind of any import.

[寒月 Hanyue]

There is a great difference between pain and suffering. And you can philosophise it any way you wish to. It still comes down to pain and to suffering.

 

When 'pain' is mentioned I personally think of physical pain, either acute or chronic. Mental and emotional pain/anguish while also carrying its own issues, and often related to physical pain, is not really what the below comments are about.

 

It seems obvious, maybe I'm wrong, of who here that has responded is doing so from a place of genuine knowing. Rather than consideration and ideas, which are fine, but are what they are.

 

Those that have lived in pain, and have helped people close to them live with pain, for years. Well, they tend to be more direct and pragmatic.

 

Coping strategies abound, some help, some make things worse and yet help the person get through a day they otherwise would not be able to do! Is there a right or wrong? I don't know.

 

People get very attached to their pain, even if it is something they tell you they would love to get rid of. The more it affects your life, the longer it is there, the more it is part of your life, who you are, what you identify with, or get labelled as. Then what?

 

I would not be learning what I am or have the teachers that I do, if it was not for years of chronic pain. Wish I'd listened, but you know other things already had my attention so I needed something loud.

 

I have seen people grow as a result of constant pain. I have seen people overcome much despite constant pain. And I have known people who's lives were eroded away and destroyed because of pain. It is hard to judge strength of character unless you can truly relate to what they are experiencing, and the sum of all that they have experienced leading up to that point.

 

Just some of my thoughts,

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

The capacity to eliminate pain is an interesting one. IMO if pain serves a purpose (for example making a person with a broken leg avoid putting too much weight on it before it has properly healed) then is it wise to seek to eliminate it before the root cause has been resolved?

 

This is a good point regarding acute pain, ie an injury that is healing. The interesting thing is when the injury heals and yet the pain remains !?

 

Best,

[Birch]

This is a good point regarding acute pain, ie an injury that is healing. The interesting thing is when the injury heals and yet the pain remains !?

 

Best,

 

This is kind of extreme, but worth a look IMO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb

 

i don't know the answer.

[suninmyeyes]

It would be rather unwise to choose pain as a learning path one would think. But sometimes something physically debilitating, even permanently, could happen to the best of us... the question is, what do we do then?

 

http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1829

There are paths where pain is considered the main way to reach certain spiritual depths. For example if we look into some Christian paths. You are considered very deep if you suffer like Christ.

Or some extreme ascetism.

Or even some devotional practises.

Pain is not necesarry for learning predominantley IMO. However it should not be feared or histerically avoided. If pain is acute and long term I can understand someone not being able to take it any longer and wanting to find peace in death, nothing wrong with that, becouse not everyone has same strenght or ability to heal. This type of pain does debilitate life.

Also the whole of our society loves pain in subtle and grosser forms, from entartainment to foods that seriously harm our bodies . We are self mutilating ourselves in a way. Pain in its many forms is our god, an image we (most of us that is)into which we aspire to grow.

Seriously sick. Not to mention the impact this attitudes have on our enviroment.

This is a sort of distorted version of Christan model or metamorphosised version of which is still our deep cultural conditioning.

So enough pain - welcome gentelness and intuitive intelligence, we need to 'change the record' and point of referance urgently and deeply.

I have also observed as mentioned previously that some people that learn something through pain few times do actually become addicted in a way maybe without even realising. This is easy to do becouse everything that is repeated few times has a superb potential to become a habit if not uprooted soon enough.

 

That seems like a nice link, am intersted to read it properly after dinner.

Edited April 1, 2012 by suninmyeyes

[Ya Mu]

...

It seems obvious, maybe I'm wrong, of who here that has responded is doing so from a place of genuine knowing. Rather than consideration and ideas, which are fine, but are what they are.

...

It is extremely difficult for those who have not experienced prolonged pain to have any idea of what it is like. It is also easy for those who have never seen or experienced medical qigong as well as other holistic methods to have big but clueless ideas.

 

In general to some of the other comments:

Yes, pain is an indicator that something is wrong. We shouldn't ignore it. Of course we go for the root cause; it is never eliminating the pain so that the cause is simply hidden. Except with terminal patients. Then simple pain relief can be a very big blessing.

 

We have had good results with eliminating pain from phantom limbs. Although sometimes difficult to achieve full balance and in some cases these folks need prolonged therapy as in the pain can be removed but due to the imbalance may return at some point.

[Owledge]

Pain can be a wake up call and motivate us to do drastic things that we wouldn't have possibly done without the pain. Amazingly and profound, sometimes.

 

Pain can also be an unrelenting hinder to a person's life and their Spirituality. That constant thing that prevents many people from going deeper into themselves. It is indeed profound to see the change that happens in these people when the pain is eliminated.

I think pain that is not expressed, but stored inside, can cause depression. Developing a tendency to always freely express your negative emotions might get you into trouble, but I don't think it will lead to depression.

 

Yes, finally releasing stored pain can be a great motivator. You will feel relieved and maybe even energized.

 

I think part of that popular advice to live in the now is to express emotions in the environment and time where they are caused. If you defer the reaction, you lose synchronization with reality.

You might realize that the moment an emotion occurs is the most sincere and healthy moment to express it, and if you don't do that, you might become frustrated because you don't find a later moment that would be 'suitable'. And if you try, you get into more trouble than if you had expressed it the first time.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Owledge