............

[Protector]

Guys, there is such things as healthy pain that's embraced by the martial arts community, stop forgetting about it

[寒月 Hanyue]

Pain can be a wake up call and motivate us to do drastic things that we wouldn't have possibly done without the pain. Amazingly and profound, sometimes.

 

This is something I've pondered for years...

 

(Ya Mu I hope you don't mind, because I am aware I am somewhat taking a snapshot quote that doesn't fully illustrate what you mean/know overall. So the below is more a continuation of sorts from the above if that makes sense).

 

As I have so far come to understand it, the above is true. Yet I also feel that this can lead to the assumption that ALL pain is a 'lesson'. I think pain as well as many other things can manifest in an individuals life to nudge them, or even shove them, back onto their 'path'. That however does not mean all pain endured throughout ones life is this. It means it CAN be.

 

Quite often it is only later in hindsight that clarity emerges. Trying to find the lesson to learn at the time can be as much of a diversion, attachment, distraction etc as anything else.

 

Is it better to act as though your suffering or pain is a blessing in disguise? Is it preferable to allow your pain to overcome you? I think the reality is probably most often a natural movement between these two poles, though you can always aim for a golden mean approach.

 

"An old Chinese fable" apparently.

 

A long, long time ago, there was a kind old man who lived on the plains outside the Great Wall of China. The gentle old man had only two passions in his life: collecting rare breeds of horses, and his son, whom he loved more than anything else.

 

The old man and his son would ride their horses every day. They would travel great distances to trade horses, meet new people, and enjoy the good fortune that life had bestowed upon them.

 

One morning, a servant left the stable door open and one of the old man’s favorite stallions escaped. When the neighbors heard the news of the stallion’s escape, they came to comfort the old man. They told him they were sorry he had had such bad luck.

 

But strangely enough, the gentle old man was not upset. He explained to his neighbors that losing the horse wasn’t necessarily bad luck. There was no way to predict that the horse would escape, it just happened, and now there was nothing that could be done about it. “There is no reason to be upset,” said the old man. The neighbors soon realized that there was nothing they could do to help get the horse back, and that they shouldn’t feel sad for the old man’s misfortune.

 

One week later, the stallion came back, and he brought with him a mare. This was not just any mare, but a rare and valuable white mare. When the neighbors heard of the old man’s good luck, they quickly came to congratulate him. But again, the old man was not excited. As he had explained before, it was not necessarily good luck that had brought him this new and beautiful white horse. It just happened, and there was no reason to get excited over it. Still a bit puzzled, the neighbors left as quickly as they had come.

 

A short time later, while his son was riding the white horse, she slipped and fell. She landed on the son’s leg, and broke his leg, so that he would always walk with a limp. Again, the neighbors came to the old man’s house to give their sympathy for the bad luck that had befallen his son. One of the neighbors suggested that the old man sell the mare before anymore bad luck could happen, and others said that he should take his revenge and kill the mare. However, the old man did neither. He explained to the neighbors that they should not feel sorrow for his son, nor anger towards the mare. It was purely an accident that could not be predicted, and there was nothing he or they could do to change it. At this point, the neighbors thought the old man was crazy and decided to leave him alone.

 

Two years later an enemy invaded the country, and all of the old man’s neighbors were drafted to defend the country against the attack. Because the old man’s son was lame, he did not have to join in the fighting. The war was very bad, and most of the old man’s neighbors were killed, but his son was spared because he had been hurt by the white horse two years earlier.

 

Very often, when an event takes place that everybody thinks is good luck, the end results are disastrous. In the same way, an unlucky event can bring about happiness. Therefore, you should not lose your will to continue if an unlucky event happens, nor should you be too overjoyed or feel too self-satisfied because of a lucky event, or because something that you desire comes very easily to you.

 

Guys, there is such things as healthy pain that's embraced by the martial arts community, stop forgetting about it

 

The only 'healthy' pain IMO is the pain felt as trauma leaves the body. You feel pain when it enters, you feel different pain if it stays, and quite often you will feel more pain when it leaves. All to differing degrees of course. Martial or any other kind of physical training ain't the same thing by a long shot, even if it includes working through the threshold of the body.

 

Best,

Edited April 1, 2012 by snowmonki

[Ya Mu]

... Yet I also feel that this can lead to the assumption that ALL pain is a 'lesson'. I think pain as well as many other things can manifest in an individuals life to nudge them, or even shove them, back onto their 'path'. That however does not mean all pain endured throughout ones life is this. It means it CAN be.

...

Most definitely. This is why I used the word "can" as well.

Some things just are, and pain can sometimes be one of those things. No "lesson" at all. If it looks like a horse, neighs like a horse, and rides like a horse more than likely it is a horse. People, especially those into any type of "esoterics", often attempt to read too much into any particular thing.

It always is a joy to see people's faces light up when their long-term pain is removed. A burden lifted.

[Birch]

Horse here:-)

Also having fallen off them a couple of times, I can attest to some amount of pain that had no other message than to say I probably should give up that dangerous (to me) sport Attention paid:-) Sport ceased.

 

Pain is subjective. Obviously. Allowing other people to judge its level and/or legitimacy is, well, it's a tough call.

 

SIME, I read your post about Christian culture with a nod. Agree 100%

[Ya Mu]

...

Pain is subjective. Obviously. Allowing other people to judge its level and/or legitimacy is, well, it's a tough call.

...

Yes, the 1-10 scale used in clinics is actually not a bad way of learning to what extend someone has pain. We do that, and after each stage of a session ask the client how they feel. But even though it is subjective it is quite real, and when it is gone, that is quite real as well.

 

As far as other people judging it's legitimacy, I guess this is something western medicine doctors do; if they don't find what is causing the pain, far too many of them then write off the patient as a drug seeker or nutcase. A sad situation, really. In our system palpation reveals the pain source. Balance out the disharmony at the source and the pain elimination is a side effect. In physical pain situations this almost always comes back to an injury. Many times this injury occurred in a person's distant past. For instance, in clinic I would be palpating a person and ask them something like "Did you have a fall when in your teens?" At first they may say no, as they don't remember. But as you work on them they all of a sudden remember and say something like "Yes, I do remember now. I fell off a horse when I was 13!"

[Kempomaster]

I noticed above another referring to phantom limb pain. I have reported on this case previously so will not cover the entire case in detail.

 

I was called in tto treat an elderly lady that had extreme pain in a broken hip that was refusing to heal. She had used a bone stimulator and numerous approaches from an Orthopedic MD. Interesting was that her other leg had been amputated from mid-calf down and she also had pain in that leg.

 

This patient had been treated for several weeks by an excellent Physical Therapist but the PT noted the patient was in too much pain to be able to do the exercises that she wanted her to do.

 

As I began the treatment I knew fairly quickly that this wasn't simple physical pain related to the fracture and amputation. I treated the hip with Medical Qigong and I treated the amputated leg as if the lower portion of the leg, foot, and toes were still present. There was an abundance of Sick Qi but there was also a huge emotional stagnation. I noticed over my shoulder that someone was watching very intently - I didn't turn to look just kept up with the treatment.

 

Afterwards the patient wept as she talked about the incredible pain relief that she had finally received and I felt that the person watching was relieved that she had a great relief from her constant pain. I suggested that I should come back at least one more time to treat.

 

I left with the Physical Therapist and asked her if it was the husband that was peeking in the room. She said no he was with her. Ok, I replied tell me about the emotional issue going on. Then she explained that the ladies grandson had committed suicide several years earlier and she held herself responsible for the death.

 

Well, that info might have been helpful to know. So, upon return for additional treatment - I started as I had before. then went to (Stillness-Movement Lineage) High Level treatment. Of course the onlooker came to visit again. Once again we had an amazing relief of pain. But the pain relief went way beyond physical relief - she said her leg w/amputated limb was much better - no pain, and her hip was pain free. BUT, the look of relief was priceless. Through the "High Level" healing she had finally let herself off the hook for what her grandson had done..she had a huge emotional and spiritual healing with this treatment.

 

Through follow-up with the patient and PT she remained free of the pain that had bothered her for so long. The pain was definitely physical but also involved emotional and spiritual scarring for an event that really wasn't her fault. I heard the entire story of the grandson and he suffered from depression and yes we always wonder if there isn't something else we could have done to help but what he did was not her fault and it appeared that she was almost self-punishing for what he had done.

 

So - yes - pain has many levels, many root causes, it can be emotional - yet cause real physical problems. Then when treated by a knowledgeable Medical Qigong practitioner have lasting physical, mental, and spiritual benefits.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Kempomaster

[Birch]

Awesome report and healing Kempomaster.

 

Not to be a 'resolution' fundamentalist (kind of;-)) but the pain brought that lady to you to resolve something very specific. When I said that pain was about something needing attention. I wasn't just referring to the physical. There have been attempts to systemize meaning of pain/ailments. Lots of BS books about what various symptom or body parts 'mean' - as if one needs further dismembering. No, one requires the opposite!

 

I reckon 5E does this very well BUT that's IMO still more systemic modelling than the 'real' accounts for.

 

I have an idea about 'resolution' (again;-)) that at some point I'll dust off.

 

---opinion alert, obviously:-) ----

[Birch]

Guys, there is such things as healthy pain that's embraced by the martial arts community, stop forgetting about it

 

I wouldn't know about it, given I'm not in the MA community

However, what your post did suggest to me was the extent to which any given person will (attempt to) take on an entirely new practice and belief system without either of those actually changing anything about the person or the practice.

 

For example, if my 'lineage sifu' says 'in our lineage we consider body as a garden' - or a 'temple' or anything 'other' than what I've been used to considering and treating my body as up until now, then while I may very well adopt the ideas, if I do not adopt forms and foundations that treat body as such, then where has the teaching gone?

 

--guilty as charged opinion alert-----

[Aaron]

Nope; one can experience pain and not learn a thing from it. It CAN be a wake up call and it can also be a hindrance. Not NECESSARY. Many people do just fine without it. It certainly can be a motivating factor, if needed for any particular person at any particular time, but not necessarily necessary.

"Getting it is a pleasant surprise,"

IF pain is in our lives we should attempt to learn from it and not use mental masturbation of indulgence as in "poor poor pitiful me..." If you really think "a pleasant surprise" of pain is such a good thing I have a hammer that does a really good job of giving one pain - don't ask me how I know - do you want to borrow it for your very own "pleasant surprise"? I was enlightened by it! (several cuss words which were bound to weigh something left my body).

 

You're missing the point, and perhaps it was my fault for not explaining it as well as I should've. Here is chapter 13 again...

 

 

"Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.

Prize calamities as your own body."

 

Why should we "welcome disgrace as a pleasant

surprise"?

Because a lowly state is a boon:

Getting it is a pleasant surprise,

And so is losing it!

That is why we should "welcome disgrace as a pleasant

surprise."

 

Why should we "prize calamities as our own body"?

Because our body is the very source of our calamities.

If we have no body, what calamities can we have?

 

Hence, only he who is willing to give his body for the

sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world.

Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being the

steward of the world. -John C. H. Wu

 

 

We welcome disgrace because it is an opportunity to grow. We prize calamities as our own body because it reminds us that we are alive. Only someone who understands the principles of suffering, the nature of suffering, is worthy of being entrusted the care of others, because that person has sympathy for others. This sympathy, when born out of compassion, not for the sake of morality, but rather the desire to ease the suffering of others, is the reason why they are worthy of being the steward of the world.

 

 

This is the fundamental difference between Taoism and Buddhism and the major reason why Zen Buddhist deviate in their understanding of compassion. The majority of Buddhists believe that the highest form of compassion can only come from detachment from the world, when one has ceased to suffer, Taoists believe the highest form of compassion can only come from an understanding of one's own suffering.

 

 

The nature of suffering is not an abstract quality and it is not different from pain, that's just semantics. Suffering is the result of pain, which by definition is an unpleasant experience, the two cannot exist without each other. Suffering does not exist without pain, just as joy does not exist without pleasure.

 

 

Our emotional pain is every bit as real as our physical pain and cause infinitely more suffering, that's a fact. Ask anyone who has suffered from depression. What many people fail to understand is the necessity of pain in one's growth. If a child never experiences suffering, then they will never grow to be a compassionate person. It is experiencing pain, then relating that experience to someone else's suffering that allows them to cultivate compassion for others. This is why it's so important to allow children to grieve and to fail in life, because failure is a welcome state, because it gives us an opportunity to learn, then it also gives us the opportunity to rise above that state, which can be a joyous occasion.

 

When one claims that they can end their suffering, then you might consider the argument regarding the hammer, but I wouldn't go that far, rather I would urge them to question why they feel the need to be free from suffering? Suffering is transient, it ends when we die, but until that day we will experience suffering and joy.

 

Yes joy and suffering are linked and the same thing, but it is understanding the nature of joy and suffering that allows us to ease our own suffering, but again, we will never be entirely free from it so long as we reside on this Earth as human beings.

 

Suffering is a very natural process and there is no need try and add existential qualities that don't exist, merely for the sake of sounding smart and mystical. It's the same with psychology, we've become a society that fails to appreciate suffering. Perhaps it's the reason so few of us actually learn from it anymore, we're too focused on the quick fix.

 

 

Aaron

Edited April 5, 2012 by Twinner

[Ya Mu]

You're missing the point, and perhaps it was my fault for not explaining it as well as I should've. Here is chapter 13 again...

 

 

"Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.

Prize calamities as your own body."

 

Why should we "welcome disgrace as a pleasant

surprise"?

Because a lowly state is a boon:

Getting it is a pleasant surprise,

And so is losing it!

That is why we should "welcome disgrace as a pleasant

surprise."

 

Why should we "prize calamities as our own body"?

Because our body is the very source of our calamities.

If we have no body, what calamities can we have?

 

Hence, only he who is willing to give his body for the

sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world.

Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being the

steward of the world. -John C. H. Wu

 

 

We welcome disgrace because it is an opportunity to grow. We prize calamities as our own body because it reminds us that we are alive. Only someone who understands the principles of suffering, the nature of suffering, is worthy of being entrusted the care of others, because that person has sympathy for others. This sympathy, when born out of compassion, not for the sake of morality, but rather the desire to ease the suffering of others is the reason why they are worthy of being the steward of the world.

 

 

This is the fundamental difference between Taoism and Buddhism and the major reason why Zen Buddhist deviate in their understanding of compassion. The majority of Buddhists believe that the highest form of compassion can only come from detachment from the world, when one has ceased to suffer, Taoists believe the highest form of compassion can only come from an understanding of one's own suffering.

 

 

The nature of suffering is not an abstract quality and it is not different from pain, that's just semantics. Suffering is the result of pain, which by definition is an unpleasant experience, the two cannot exist without each other. Suffering does not exist without pain, just as joy does not exist with pleasure.

 

 

Our emotional pain is every bit as real as our physical pain and cause infinitely more suffering, that's a fact. Ask anyone who has suffered from depression. What many people fail to understand is the necessity of pain in one's growth. If a child never experiences suffering, then they will never grow to be a compassionate person. It is experiencing pain, then relating that experience to someone else's suffering that allows them to cultivate compassion for others. This is why it's so important to allow children to grieve and to fail in life, because failure is a welcome state, because it gives us an opportunity to learn, then it also gives us the importunity to rise above that state, which can be a joyous occasion.

 

When one claims that they can end their suffering, then you might consider the argument regarding the hammer, but I wouldn't go that far, rather I would urge them to question why they feel the need to be free from suffering? Suffering is transient, it ends when we die, but until that day we will experience suffering and joy.

 

Yes joy and suffering are linked and the same thing, but it is understanding the nature of joy and suffering that allows us to ease our own suffering, but again, we will never be entirely free from it so long as we reside on this Earth as human beings.

 

Suffering is a very natural process and there is no need try and add existential qualities that don't exist, merely for the sake of sounding smart and mystical. It's the same with psychology, we've become a society that fails to appreciate suffering. Perhaps it's the reason so few of us actually learn from it anymore, we're too focused on the quick fix.

 

 

Aaron

While no one's "bible" impresses me as much as that which is real, saying pain is NEEDED is pure nonsense (it doesn't make any kind of sense). Saying joy & suffering are the same thing makes the same kind of no-sense.

 

"We prize calamities as our own body because it reminds us that we are alive." The thing is we don't have to have calamities to remind us we are alive. The key is to not indulge oneself in the outcome of any particular "calamity" and I do think that is what is being referred to in what you quoted.

 

"...I would urge them to question why they feel the need to be free from suffering?..." So are you saying that people should go ahead and suffer from pain when they don't have to? If so, this also is nonsense and reeks of some type of religious dogma.

 

Your last two paragraphs indicate to me that you don't understand about physical pain and have possibly had much emotional pain. It simply is not true that "Our emotional pain is every bit as real as our physical pain and cause infinitely more suffering, that's a fact" While it is true that emotional pain can be just as debilitating and real as physical pain and both have trauma as their source, it is not by any means true that emotional pain causes infinitely more suffering, and that statement is nowhere near "fact". I do understand that for you possibly emotional pain has been immensely more, but you obviously haven't been exposed to physical pain to the same extent. Someone who had only been exposed to physical pain of great extent and not emotional pain would make the reverse statement, and also be making a false statement.

 

In the end, this distinguishing between the two is not needed on our part as Chinese medicine practitioners as we are not really concerned with either one; only helping a person achieve his/her Destiny. The side effects of alleviation is due to touching and manipulating the raw source of the trauma and it doesn't really matter if it is physical, emotional, or Spiritual (at least in the system I do) as high level practitioners effects encompass those of low level and mid level practitioners; but for those are still really side-effects.

 

I would also argue that sympathy and compassion are two different things. We can have sympathy for a person without having true compassion. Most healers have learned true compassion and realize there is no room for sympathy if we are truly compassionate enough to do something about a person's problem. Someone can sit on the sidelines and mumble about being sympathetic to someone's pain but never try to learn how to do something about it; it is therefore only sympathy and not true compassion. Compassion requires action, sympathy does not.

 

"Suffering is a very natural process and there is no need try and add existential qualities that don't exist, merely for the sake of sounding smart and mystical"

Is that what you are doing here with what you wrote? Trying to sound smart and mystical? Who on this thread has added "existential qualities that don't exist"? And what are those "existential qualities that don't exist" except possibly for what you wrote about people needing to suffer?

[Protector]

Ya Mu, what makes nerves grow?

[GreytoWhite]

As far as pain goes it has been my greatest teacher. It is what finally got me to start practicing. I had a heart attack at the age of 22 (almost four years ago now) and I did nothing about my lifestyle at the time. After my grandfather died I made it worse, in my depression and confusion I started drinking and smoking more and ended up having a mild stroke. It was recovery from the stroke that made it necessary for me to learn. I was in worse shape than all the old timers at the cigar shop and I was 1/3 their age. My body is in better shape than before but my daily existence is incredibly painful in comparison to most Americans' daily lives. My tolerance for pain is incredible and on those few good days I confuse the shit out of my friends with how happy I am on the outside.

[Owledge]

Every life experience can be useful. Usefulness is just a personal view on things, a life philosophy. Be aware of how much your choice of personal beliefs shapes your success in life.

Personally, after recent experiences, I realized that while I could act like that old man from the tale and remain calm about negative AND positive experiences, if I am able to act detached like that, I could also limit it to negative experiences and fully enjoy positive ones as long as they last. As long as the profound underlying understanding is kept alive, this should not be a problem, especially since having good experiences and fully diving into them can strengthen your morale and make it even easier to buffer painful experiences.

I'd have to try this out in praxis though.

I consider it skillful to have success and happiness in life instead of merely transcending it.

Here's the simplicity: What do you want? Transcend life? Then be calm in positive and negative times. Experience life? Then be excited in positive and negative times. Enjoy life? Then be excited in positive times and calm in negative times.

 

And again about the 'meaning' of suffering: I'd say the fact that healers can remove an illness from you without you 'learning any lesson' about its root is a beautiful dogma-breaker. It shows that those healers don't engage in that drama and dogma. We hold on to pain because we fill it with meaning and context. When an illness is simply removed from a person, this calls BS on all that stuff. It is a lesson in itself.

Then again, who knows whether someone being helped that way didn't 'earn' that opportunity karmically?

[Aaron]

While no one's "bible" impresses me as much as that which is real, saying pain is NEEDED is pure nonsense (it doesn't make any kind of sense). Saying joy & suffering are the same thing makes the same kind of no-sense.

 

"We prize calamities as our own body because it reminds us that we are alive." The thing is we don't have to have calamities to remind us we are alive. The key is to not indulge oneself in the outcome of any particular "calamity" and I do think that is what is being referred to in what you quoted.

 

"...I would urge them to question why they feel the need to be free from suffering?..." So are you saying that people should go ahead and suffer from pain when they don't have to? If so, this also is nonsense and reeks of some type of religious dogma.

 

Your last two paragraphs indicate to me that you don't understand about physical pain and have possibly had much emotional pain. It simply is not true that "Our emotional pain is every bit as real as our physical pain and cause infinitely more suffering, that's a fact" While it is true that emotional pain can be just as debilitating and real as physical pain and both have trauma as their source, it is not by any means true that emotional pain causes infinitely more suffering, and that statement is nowhere near "fact". I do understand that for you possibly emotional pain has been immensely more, but you obviously haven't been exposed to physical pain to the same extent. Someone who had only been exposed to physical pain of great extent and not emotional pain would make the reverse statement, and also be making a false statement.

 

In the end, this distinguishing between the two is not needed on our part as Chinese medicine practitioners as we are not really concerned with either one; only helping a person achieve his/her Destiny. The side effects of alleviation is due to touching and manipulating the raw source of the trauma and it doesn't really matter if it is physical, emotional, or Spiritual (at least in the system I do) as high level practitioners effects encompass those of low level and mid level practitioners; but for those are still really side-effects.

 

I would also argue that sympathy and compassion are two different things. We can have sympathy for a person without having true compassion. Most healers have learned true compassion and realize there is no room for sympathy if we are truly compassionate enough to do something about a person's problem. Someone can sit on the sidelines and mumble about being sympathetic to someone's pain but never try to learn how to do something about it; it is therefore only sympathy and not true compassion. Compassion requires action, sympathy does not.

 

"Suffering is a very natural process and there is no need try and add existential qualities that don't exist, merely for the sake of sounding smart and mystical"

Is that what you are doing here with what you wrote? Trying to sound smart and mystical? Who on this thread has added "existential qualities that don't exist"? And what are those "existential qualities that don't exist" except possibly for what you wrote about people needing to suffer?

 

I understand physical pain. I've had numerous serious injuries, including cutting my toe off and having it sewn back on. The problem is that you're not understanding what Lao Tzu said. We do NEED to suffer, without it we do not grow as people, simple as that. You cannot have sympathy for someone if you have not experienced suffering, how could you? You would not understand what's happening to that person. You've never experienced hunger or pain, yet you see someone hungry, how do you understand what they're experiencing if you haven't experienced it yourself?

 

You idea is twisted in my opinion and smacks of holly roller, hallelujah miracle working. What you're talking about isn't reality, it's smoke and mirrors. In reality it is the world's preoccupation with avoiding pain that is causing much of the woes in the world these days. With that said, there's no need to suffer without purpose. You don't walk through a thorny bush for no reason, but in the same way, if you do suffer you should take the time to understand why you're suffering, rather than immediately find a quick fix for it.

 

Aaron

[Ya Mu]

Ya Mu, what makes nerves grow?

Here, let me do that for you, what makes nerves grow

 

I started to answer, from a physiology viewpoint, "protein". But If yours is a serious question I will say, from an energetic viewpoint, we have seen in clinic regeneration of nerves with medical qigong. Nerves grow slowly but the process can be speed-ed up/enhanced by medical qigong.

 

... My tolerance for pain is incredible and on those few good days I confuse the shit out of my friends with how happy I am on the outside.

Good for you in not indulging in the "poor poor pitiful me" syndrome, which can only make matters worse and virtually eliminates or at the very least severely limits, due to negative feedback loop, potential as a person.

[Ya Mu]

I understand physical pain. I've had numerous serious injuries, including cutting my toe off and having it sewn back on. The problem is that you're not understanding what Lao Tzu said. We do NEED to suffer, without it we do not grow as people, simple as that. You cannot have sympathy for someone if you have not experienced suffering, how could you? You would not understand what's happening to that person. You've never experienced hunger or pain, yet you see someone hungry, how do you understand what they're experiencing if you haven't experienced it yourself?

 

You idea is twisted in my opinion and smacks of holly roller, hallelujah miracle working. What you're talking about isn't reality, it's smoke and mirrors. In reality it is the world's preoccupation with avoiding pain that is causing much of the woes in the world these days. With that said, there's no need to suffer without purpose. You don't walk through a thorny bush for no reason, but in the same way, if you do suffer you should take the time to understand why you're suffering, rather than immediately find a quick fix for it.

 

Aaron

Aaron,

I don't buy into religious dogma, but hey, that's just me; you are welcome to it.

 

These aren't my ideas but the way Chinese Medical Qigong is taught. It is real and involves no smoke and mirrors. History of use has proven its efficacy and needs no defense from me. I am certainly not the only person in the USA who teaches about the 3 methods; if you want to hear about it from another high level practitioner take a class with Emfrem Korngold.

 

But I certainly can see how someone who is stuck with religion, who knows not one single thing about medical qigong or high level Chinese Medicine, who thinks a person named Lao Tzu wrote collections of writings from different time periods that are at the very least (and in some translations so far from the original meaning as to be very hilarious) distorted through translation,; yes, I can certainly see the lens through which you view these things.

[Aaron]

Aaron,

I don't buy into religious dogma, but hey, that's just me; you are welcome to it.

 

These aren't my ideas but the way Chinese Medical Qigong is taught. It is real and involves no smoke and mirrors. History of use has proven its efficacy and needs no defense from me. I am certainly not the only person in the USA who teaches about the 3 methods; if you want to hear about it from another high level practitioner take a class with Emfrem Korngold.

 

But I certainly can see how someone who is stuck with religion, who knows not one single thing about medical qigong or high level Chinese Medicine, who thinks a person named Lao Tzu wrote collections of writings from different time periods that are at the very least (and in some translations so far from the original meaning as to be very hilarious) distorted through translation,; yes, I can certainly see the lens through which you view these things.

 

Heh... you must not read many of my posts. I'm perhaps the least religious person on this board, in the sense that I do not follow dogma, but rather examine texts intensely to see the practicality of what's being taught. Believing that Tao Teh Ching made a good and valid point, whether it was Lao Tzu or someone who attributed the writing to him, doesn't mean that I have fallen into a religious dichotomy.

 

Hmm... come to think of it, perhaps you have read my post and you're trying to push buttons. Now that wouldn't be very nice, but it wouldn't be the first time now would it?

 

I'm actually fairly well versed in the principles of traditional chinese medicine, so my beliefs have little to do with a bias, but rather an examination of what you're saying from a practical understanding. I believe that acupuncture is a valid medicinal option for instance, but I don't think eating ground tiger penis is going to make me more virile, so lets just say I don't buy into what you're saying, not because I don't understand it, but because I do.

 

Of course if you want to continue with your passive aggressive attempts to pull me into a argument, you can, but I would suggest a subtler attempt.

 

Aaron

Edited April 5, 2012 by Twinner

[Ya Mu]

Heh... you must not read many of my posts. I'm perhaps the least religious person on this board, in the sense that I do not follow dogma, but rather examine texts intensely to see the practicality of what's being taught. Believing that Tao Teh Ching made a good and valid point, whether it was Lao Tzu or someone who attributed the writing to him, doesn't mean that I have fallen into a religious dichotomy.

 

Hmm... come to think of it, perhaps you have read my post and you're trying to push buttons. Now that wouldn't be very nice, but it wouldn't be the first time now would it?

 

I'm actually fairly well versed in the principles of traditional chinese medicine, so my beliefs have little to do with a bias, but rather an examination of what you're saying from a practical understanding. I believe that acupuncture is a valid medicinal option for instance, but I don't think eating ground tiger penis is going to make me more virile, do lets just say I don't buy into what you're saying, not because I don't understand it, but because I do.

 

Of course if you want to continue with your passive aggressive attempts to pull me into a argument, you can, but I would suggest a subtler attempt.

 

Aaron

."..lets just say I don't buy into what you're saying, not because I don't understand it, but because I do."

Of course you don't. As in no clue whatsoever. IF you had even looked through books at the rich and vivid history of medical qigong and had read about it you STILL wouldn't understand it. This type of understanding does not come from reading a book but actually studying it. Now what you can do is actually research it, read about the rich & vivid history of use in hospitals in China, read abstracts from the scientific papers, read about its success in clinic, etc. Then you would know it is a valid aspect of Chinese Medicine - not "smoke & mirrors", which is total ignorance on your part to say.

 

And, of course the belief that suffering is NEEDED is religious dogma. And IMO, a very sick part of that dogma. People do not have to suffer.

 

I have uttered no passive aggressiveness - just responding to what you write, and I must say, it certainly would be nice if people (such as YOU) had a little more education about a subject before making such incredibly uninformed & outlandish statements as you have. This is my suggestion to you.

 

Now if you want to cut the bullshit and get back to the subject, you did make a valid point about pain; it IS more difficult for people to treat pain in others without having experienced it, at least initially. Though with some experience this does fall to the wayside for those trained in medical qigong.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Kempomaster]

You know at 1st examination I thought that a valid point had been made regarding Pain and if we had experienced it we may be more compassionate to the person that is experiencing pain.

 

However, upon reflection , it is more sympathy and less compassion. For instance, the persons thumb hurts because they hit it with a hammer and yes I have hit my thumb with a hammer so I know what it felt like to me when it happened. Wait you hit it with a sledge hammer - oooh, that must of hurt, now let me use Medical Qigong on it to try to relieve the swelling, discoloration, and intense pain you are having.

 

NO WAIT - according to some of those above I need to let you hold onto the pain for a while so you can learn from it. Now - how long do I wait until you have learned a really good lesson.

 

Waiting, waiting, waiting....

 

you get the point and you are not an experienced Medical Qigong Practitioner.

 

1st we do the healing under "The Will of the Light" (will of God or whatever reference makes you feel comfortable) so if in fact the Pain etc is not to be removed because the person is to continue to learn a higher lesson then in fact the pain etc will not be removed. We are not trying to be "holier than thou" etc.

In addition, during a healing - we experience much more than sympathy for the patient -- I have been involved in many successful healings (hundreds and hundreds) where I had not suffered the condition that the patient was experiencing, yet, during the treatment, through our energetic exchange I knew everything about the patient - I opened my heart to what they were experiencing and felt there Hopes, Fears, evrything - it can be extremely overwhelming. Oftentimes, I am in tears following a healing and likewise the patient is in tears - for they now have an understanding of what is going on in their life and perhaps what changes they need to make.

 

Oh - a "high level healing" - physical, emotional, and spiritual and it helps them move along the path of life to fullfill their destiny.

 

If you don't understand that -- then you have read about Medical Qigong and made an assumption based upon your readings - BUT -- you haven't actually investigated in person with a talented Qigong and Medical Qigong Teacher.

 

You can read 100 books on baseball but you won't be playing in the World Series this year because you are well read. You can read 101 books on Martial Arts - but you will not have any talent as a Martial Artist Unless you spend time and effort with a talented teacher of Martial Arts.

 

So, how can one expect to really know about Qigong and all it offers....unless you spend time with a talented Qigong teacher and invest your time and effort to really form an opinion based upon experience.

 

Thanks,

 

Kempomaster

[Seth Ananda]

I really can't agree that pain is NEEDED full stop.

 

Sure it is probably inevitable and when it does come at some point, I will hopefully be able to learn from it, as I have in the past, but saying we 'need' it seems a bit ridiculous. Also saying we cant learn to empathize without it makes no sense.

My baby daughter for instance was very empathic and compassionate, without having any real pain to draw from in her life experience.

I used to subscribe to that theory as well, as I had a hideously twisted upbringing, and as a result I am the most Interesting person I know [egotistical anyone? ] and I would credit the massive challenges I had with inspiring my path and the changes I went through. That still holds true in a way but a few years ago I made a challenging friend.

He was good looking, confident and women just love him. He grew up in his family home which is stunningly beautiful {like a fairy dell} with very wealthy parents who always gave him what ever he wanted. His parents were also very soft loving people who had the money to become stay home parents and give him full loving attention. He went to Steiner school in a beautiful location and spent his childhood singing dancing and making art.

In his own words he basically had no bad experiences, and had a Value system instilled based on Love, Pleasure, Relationships, Communication and Creativity.

He is the most loving person I have met. He has no Neurosis that I am aware of. No fidgets or twitches in his nervous system. He is utterly relaxed. He deals with negative energy from others in a really gently and beautiful way that benefits them both.

 

He really pushed my buttons when I first met him, and snidely I was just waiting to see shit hit the fan for him, that he [in my mind] had no back bone to deal with. But He is beautifully Integrated. He also has an active spiritual life, which challenged me because I also used to think that if people Had it too easy they would not grow or be Inspired to grow, but it is just not true.

That old 'suffering is good for you' mind set is just an archaic hang over from barbaric times.

 

 

Now back to pain.

It seems to me that there are a variety of experiences that come under the 'pain' umbrella.

 

Off the top of my head I can think of Positive/constructive pain, Negative pain, and Psychological or Existential pain. If anyone sees more categories please chuck them in.

 

Positive pain:

Like from horse stance, holding postures, deep tissue massage, or possibly the body's warning that something is up. I am not sure that these should even be called pain [not including the body's warning system] as there is often a good feeling simultaneously. I would probably refer to these things as 'strong sensation'...

Pain from the body's warning system can be absent the positive or beneficial feelings of the others, but i can't say it is needed or even Inevitable. An in tune person, listens to their bodys messages and responds well before it has to resort to pain to get their attention.

 

 

Negative pain:

Pain from disease, injuries... this pain has been shown to reduce life span, decrease quality of life, cause dissociation and increase the likely hood of a variety of other health complications.

Sure it can be learned from but why would you want to experience that, when everything learned could have been learned through easier paths.

Learning does not Require suffering, but I wont argue that suffering may not sometimes accelerate learning.

Modern education has shown that in classrooms, Kids learn best from Fun memory clustering exercises, not from being drilled in a punishing environment.

 

 

Psychological or Existential Pain:

Psychological Trauma, mental health Issues, despair over the big questions can be plain horrible. Pain is definitely an experience here. Pain of the mind.

These in some cases can be up there with the worst of the negative pain spectrum, and both drive many to suicide.

Again, most of this comes from bad history, and bad coping methods for high stress.

it is tragic and quite simply not needed. And while it can help create Interesting and colorful characters, hopefully we will one day have enough awareness as a culture to eradicate these kinds of mental health Issues.

This will not be a bad thing [cause people learn from pain] but a very positive thing.

 

Seth.

[Ya Mu]

You know at 1st examination I thought that a valid point had been made regarding Pain and if we had experienced it we may be more compassionate to the person that is experiencing pain.

 

However, upon reflection , it is more sympathy and less compassion. For instance, the persons thumb hurts because they hit it with a hammer and yes I have hit my thumb with a hammer so I know what it felt like to me when it happened. Wait you hit it with a sledge hammer - oooh, that must of hurt, now let me use Medical Qigong on it to try to relieve the swelling, discoloration, and intense pain you are having.

 

NO WAIT - according to some of those above I need to let you hold onto the pain for a while so you can learn from it. Now - how long do I wait until you have learned a really good lesson.

 

Waiting, waiting, waiting....

 

you get the point and you are not an experienced Medical Qigong Practitioner.

 

1st we do the healing under "The Will of the Light" (will of God or whatever reference makes you feel comfortable) so if in fact the Pain etc is not to be removed because the person is to continue to learn a higher lesson then in fact the pain etc will not be removed. We are not trying to be "holier than thou" etc.

In addition, during a healing - we experience much more than sympathy for the patient -- I have been involved in many successful healings (hundreds and hundreds) where I had not suffered the condition that the patient was experiencing, yet, during the treatment, through our energetic exchange I knew everything about the patient - I opened my heart to what they were experiencing and felt there Hopes, Fears, evrything - it can be extremely overwhelming. Oftentimes, I am in tears following a healing and likewise the patient is in tears - for they now have an understanding of what is going on in their life and perhaps what changes they need to make.

 

Oh - a "high level healing" - physical, emotional, and spiritual and it helps them move along the path of life to fullfill their destiny.

 

If you don't understand that -- then you have read about Medical Qigong and made an assumption based upon your readings - BUT -- you haven't actually investigated in person with a talented Qigong and Medical Qigong Teacher.

 

You can read 100 books on baseball but you won't be playing in the World Series this year because you are well read. You can read 101 books on Martial Arts - but you will not have any talent as a Martial Artist Unless you spend time and effort with a talented teacher of Martial Arts.

 

So, how can one expect to really know about Qigong and all it offers....unless you spend time with a talented Qigong teacher and invest your time and effort to really form an opinion based upon experience.

 

Thanks,

 

Kempomaster

"I have been involved in many successful healings (hundreds and hundreds)" and I bet the only smoke & mirrors you used were sage or sandlewood where appropriate and the rear view mirror you looked in while backing up the vehicle while leaving after a successful session.

Really, if people would only learn about these things we would have such a better world.

 

I really can't agree that pain is NEEDED full stop.

 

Sure it is probably inevitable and when it does come at some point, I will hopefully be able to learn from it, as I have in the past, but saying we 'need' it seems a bit ridiculous. Also saying we cant learn to empathize without it makes no sense.

My baby daughter for instance was very empathic and compassionate, without having any real pain to draw from in her life experience.

I used to subscribe to that theory as well, as I had a hideously twisted upbringing, and as a result I am the most Interesting person I know [egotistical anyone? ] and I would credit the massive challenges I had with inspiring my path and the changes I went through. That still holds true in a way but a few years ago I made a challenging friend.

He was good looking, confident and women just love him. He grew up in his family home which is stunningly beautiful {like a fairy dell} with very wealthy parents who always gave him what ever he wanted. His parents were also very soft loving people who had the money to become stay home parents and give him full loving attention. He went to Steiner school in a beautiful location and spent his childhood singing dancing and making art.

In his own words he basically had no bad experiences, and had a Value system instilled based on Love, Pleasure, Relationships, Communication and Creativity.

He is the most loving person I have met. He has no Neurosis that I am aware of. No fidgets or twitches in his nervous system. He is utterly relaxed. He deals with negative energy from others in a really gently and beautiful way that benefits them both.

 

He really pushed my buttons when I first met him, and snidely I was just waiting to see shit hit the fan for him, that he [in my mind] had no back bone to deal with. But He is beautifully Integrated. He also has an active spiritual life, which challenged me because I also used to think that if people Had it too easy they would not grow or be Inspired to grow, but it is just not true.

That old 'suffering is good for you' mind set is just an archaic hang over from barbaric times.

 

 

Now back to pain.

It seems to me that there are a variety of experiences that come under the 'pain' umbrella.

 

Off the top of my head I can think of Positive/constructive pain, Negative pain, and Psychological or Existential pain. If anyone sees more categories please chuck them in.

 

Positive pain:

Like from horse stance, holding postures, deep tissue massage, or possibly the body's warning that something is up. I am not sure that these should even be called pain [not including the body's warning system] as there is often a good feeling simultaneously. I would probably refer to these things as 'strong sensation'...

Pain from the body's warning system can be absent the positive or beneficial feelings of the others, but i can't say it is needed or even Inevitable. An in tune person, listens to their bodys messages and responds well before it has to resort to pain to get their attention.

 

 

Negative pain:

Pain from disease, injuries... this pain has been shown to reduce life span, decrease quality of life, cause dissociation and increase the likely hood of a variety of other health complications.

Sure it can be learned from but why would you want to experience that, when everything learned could have been learned through easier paths.

Learning does not Require suffering, but I wont argue that suffering may not sometimes accelerate learning.

Modern education has shown that in classrooms, Kids learn best from Fun memory clustering exercises, not from being drilled in a punishing environment.

 

 

Psychological or Existential Pain:

Psychological Trauma, mental health Issues, despair over the big questions can be plain horrible. Pain is definitely an experience here. Pain of the mind.

These in some cases can be up there with the worst of the negative pain spectrum, and both drive many to suicide.

Again, most of this comes from bad history, and bad coping methods for high stress.

it is tragic and quite simply not needed. And while it can help create Interesting and colorful characters, hopefully we will one day have enough awareness as a culture to eradicate these kinds of mental health Issues.

This will not be a bad thing [cause people learn from pain] but a very positive thing.

 

Seth.

Good post. I just want to say I really really like this: "An in tune person, listens to their bodys messages and responds well before it has to resort to pain to get their attention."

Preventive medicine and Listening is the best choice.

[dwai]

You're missing the point, and perhaps it was my fault for not explaining it as well as I should've. Here is chapter 13 again...

 

 

"Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.

Prize calamities as your own body."

 

Why should we "welcome disgrace as a pleasant

surprise"?

Because a lowly state is a boon:

Getting it is a pleasant surprise,

And so is losing it!

That is why we should "welcome disgrace as a pleasant

surprise."

 

Why should we "prize calamities as our own body"?

Because our body is the very source of our calamities.

If we have no body, what calamities can we have?

 

Hence, only he who is willing to give his body for the

sake of the world is fit to be entrusted with the world.

Only he who can do it with love is worthy of being the

steward of the world. -John C. H. Wu

 

 

We welcome disgrace because it is an opportunity to grow. We prize calamities as our own body because it reminds us that we are alive. Only someone who understands the principles of suffering, the nature of suffering, is worthy of being entrusted the care of others, because that person has sympathy for others. This sympathy, when born out of compassion, not for the sake of morality, but rather the desire to ease the suffering of others, is the reason why they are worthy of being the steward of the world.

 

 

This is the fundamental difference between Taoism and Buddhism and the major reason why Zen Buddhist deviate in their understanding of compassion. The majority of Buddhists believe that the highest form of compassion can only come from detachment from the world, when one has ceased to suffer, Taoists believe the highest form of compassion can only come from an understanding of one's own suffering.

 

 

The nature of suffering is not an abstract quality and it is not different from pain, that's just semantics. Suffering is the result of pain, which by definition is an unpleasant experience, the two cannot exist without each other. Suffering does not exist without pain, just as joy does not exist with pleasure.

 

 

Our emotional pain is every bit as real as our physical pain and cause infinitely more suffering, that's a fact. Ask anyone who has suffered from depression. What many people fail to understand is the necessity of pain in one's growth. If a child never experiences suffering, then they will never grow to be a compassionate person. It is experiencing pain, then relating that experience to someone else's suffering that allows them to cultivate compassion for others. This is why it's so important to allow children to grieve and to fail in life, because failure is a welcome state, because it gives us an opportunity to learn, then it also gives us the opportunity to rise above that state, which can be a joyous occasion.

 

When one claims that they can end their suffering, then you might consider the argument regarding the hammer, but I wouldn't go that far, rather I would urge them to question why they feel the need to be free from suffering? Suffering is transient, it ends when we die, but until that day we will experience suffering and joy.

 

Yes joy and suffering are linked and the same thing, but it is understanding the nature of joy and suffering that allows us to ease our own suffering, but again, we will never be entirely free from it so long as we reside on this Earth as human beings.

 

Suffering is a very natural process and there is no need try and add existential qualities that don't exist, merely for the sake of sounding smart and mystical. It's the same with psychology, we've become a society that fails to appreciate suffering. Perhaps it's the reason so few of us actually learn from it anymore, we're too focused on the quick fix.

 

 

Aaron

 

If you ask me, pain is a result of ignorance. So to eliminate pain, we must eliminate ignorance. By that i dont of course refer to physical pain...i mean "suffering"...

 

I dont see what else a purpose of that kind of pain can be...except to act as a big flashing sign board pointing at the ignorance underlying the pain. Some of us get it some of the time...that is the process of spiritual growth. See the pain, know the pain, eliminate the pain.

 

Physical pain too can be a sign board...pain in the chest and left arm? Better take a long good look at your lifestyle. Figure out what might be wrong and fix it. Get migraines a lot...again same story.

 

Emotional and psychological pain is harder to diagnose...but a lot of that kind of pain can be a result of fighting nature...denial of the obvious...accept things and the pain reduces in intensity....let go of that whih causes pain and enter joy of being.

 

Im not saying im good at it...but i now see these things...whereas is was blind to it before....

[Aaron]

."..lets just say I don't buy into what you're saying, not because I don't understand it, but because I do."

Of course you don't. As in no clue whatsoever. IF you had even looked through books at the rich and vivid history of medical qigong and had read about it you STILL wouldn't understand it. This type of understanding does not come from reading a book but actually studying it. Now what you can do is actually research it, read about the rich & vivid history of use in hospitals in China, read abstracts from the scientific papers, read about its success in clinic, etc. Then you would know it is a valid aspect of Chinese Medicine - not "smoke & mirrors", which is total ignorance on your part to say.

 

And, of course the belief that suffering is NEEDED is religious dogma. And IMO, a very sick part of that dogma. People do not have to suffer.

 

I have uttered no passive aggressiveness - just responding to what you write, and I must say, it certainly would be nice if people (such as YOU) had a little more education about a subject before making such incredibly uninformed & outlandish statements as you have. This is my suggestion to you.

 

Now if you want to cut the bullshit and get back to the subject, you did make a valid point about pain; it IS more difficult for people to treat pain in others without having experienced it, at least initially. Though with some experience this does fall to the wayside for those trained in medical qigong.

 

Ahh... so you come back with the ever effervescent reply that all the "greats" give you, that only by studying it for decades can one ever understand the power of "insert mystical mumbo jumbo here".

 

I'm not going to continue to discuss something that I have no intention of studying for any extent of time in order to learn the 'truth'.

 

If you've read this post prior to this edit, ignore it. If you want to believe in TCM, that's fine, all I ask is that you don't cause entire species to go extinct for some miracle cure.

 

Aaron

Edited April 3, 2012 by Twinner

[Aaron]

Dwai,

There is no offence intended here, but let me clarify, there is no way in hell any of us are ever going to be free of pain, unless we're dead and that sort of makes the point moot, doesn't it? Pain is inevitable and essential. People who can't feel pain end up having numerous accidents because of the condition. Pain is essential, it lets us know something is wrong. You can believe you can transcend pain, but as a friend of mine pointed it, give that person who claims that he doesn't feel pain or suffering anymore the hammer, because he's really the one who needs to bop himself upside the head, so he can get a reality check.

 

The degree of suffering isn't important, rather it's the act of suffering that allows us to grow as individuals. Nothing anyone's said disproves my point, it just directs the argument in another direction. Does the enlightened person no longer have nerves? From what I've heard there are a lot of Buddhist monks that go to the dentist when they have toothaches, Taoists too. Can they manage pain better than others, perhaps, but they are not without pain and suffering.

 

People seem to take this to the extreme, as in I'm advocating masochism, rather than looking at the practical argument being made. The irony is that most Buddhist masters will tell you that the one has suffered much finds it easier to reach enlightenment. It's understanding suffering that allows us to transcend it and develop compassion for others, you can't understand it without experiencing it and realizing it's nature.

 

Aaron

Edited April 3, 2012 by Twinner

[Protector]

You guys think you're talking about pain

but you're just trying to describe what shape water is