............

[Aaron]

... a few years ago I made a challenging friend.

He was good looking, confident and women just love him. He grew up in his family home which is stunningly beautiful {like a fairy dell} with very wealthy parents who always gave him what ever he wanted. His parents were also very soft loving people who had the money to become stay home parents and give him full loving attention. He went to Steiner school in a beautiful location and spent his childhood singing dancing and making art.

In his own words he basically had no bad experiences, and had a Value system instilled based on Love, Pleasure, Relationships, Communication and Creativity.

He is the most loving person I have met. He has no Neurosis that I am aware of. No fidgets or twitches in his nervous system. He is utterly relaxed. He deals with negative energy from others in a really gently and beautiful way that benefits them both.

 

He really pushed my buttons when I first met him, and snidely I was just waiting to see shit hit the fan for him, that he [in my mind] had no back bone to deal with. But He is beautifully Integrated. He also has an active spiritual life, which challenged me because I also used to think that if people Had it too easy they would not grow or be Inspired to grow, but it is just not true.

That old 'suffering is good for you' mind set is just an archaic hang over from barbaric times.

 

Seth.

 

Your friend was lying. We all have bad experiences. Are you telling me he never had another child take his toy away from him because they wanted to play with it? Are you saying he's never had a loved one die? Are you saying he's never failed at a task that he put a lot of effort into? Has he led a privileged life, apparently so, but I would say that it's the combination of good parenting and learning from his mistakes that have made him the person he is today. The nice thing about pain and suffering is that the effects are drastically minimized if you have a kind and loving support network that helps you through it (and you can still get all the benefits from the experience of loss or suffering.)

 

Again my point is not that we need to be (or should be) masochists, but rather that pain is essential in order for us to understand what is beneficial and harmful, in fact that's the full purpose of pain, to show us what is harmful so we don't end up doing the same stupid things over and over.

 

Now there are people who suffer and never learn from their suffering and there are also people who suffer with no apparent cause for that suffering, but the essential truth of the matter is that the vast majority of people use pain as a learning tool, whether they care to admit it or not.

 

Now the problem is that we're kind of out of whack with our definition of pain. I'm saying we learn from those things that cause us to feel discomfort and pain. If we never experienced pain it would be almost impossible for us to die of natural causes. This goes for physical and psychological pain. We'd end up getting murdered or having a horrible accident.

 

Do you think the Buddhist monk who is showing compassion to others is doing it simply because of an enlightened state or is it because they empathize with the other person's suffering? Didn't suffering help them to empathize? That's my point, it's experiencing something that allows us to relate to others on a human level. Anyways, this is getting way out of hand, so I'm going to stop here unless someone comes up with an actual argument to disprove my translation of Chapter 13... i.e. give me the "correct" translation.

 

Aaron

Edited April 3, 2012 by Twinner

[Ya Mu]

Ahh... so you come back with the ever effervescent reply that all the "greats" give you, that only by studying it for decades can one ever understand the power of "insert mystical mumbo jumbo here". I don't buy into this crap. You know as well as I do that traditional chinese medicine is based on religious thinking, Taoist thinking to be exact. You seem to think I'm making this judgement based on some prejudice, but it's not, it's based on the facts as they're being presented by the MODERN medical community.

 

Yes, some practices do work, such as acupuncture, but the majority of the cures and tonics that are being hocked for ills and impotence are nothing more than folk remedies with no medicinal value whatsoever. If they do work, it's because of the placebo effect and they don't work consistently enough to prove they have medicinal value.

 

It makes me laugh that the same people who scoff at the fundamentalist Christians for believing that a preacher can heal them by praying and laying their hands on them, have no problem if someone comes to them claiming they're doing it through "Traditional Chinese Medicine". So the preacher can't heal someone by laying their hands on them, but the TCM healer can do it by talking to them over the phone or by getting an email and sending the energy from another state or country.

 

I know this might be offensive to some people who believe in TCM and I'm sorry for that, but the facts are both the preacher in the pulpit and TCM healer are doing the same thing, just using a different method to do it. Show me substantial evidence that it works and I'll be the first to agree, but I'm not a believer. There's a reason they're not able to reproduce the TCM claims under scrutiny, because they don't actually work.

 

Now qigong and tai chi I can back up, because there is evidence that the practices actually are healthy practices, but I draw the line when someone tells me to eat tiger penis for impotence.

 

And it astounds me that you can believe this <bleep>, but you don't recognize the wisdom in the Tao Teh Ching. That's just utterly mind boggling.

 

Aaron

Aaron this is such utter crap that it certainly doesn't need a line by line reply. Ignorance will get you nowhere.

 

Will you answer this one: What type of qigong do you practice that you can't feel energy? Did you learn it from a book or a teacher? My bet is you have never even practiced it, but if you did it must have been calisthenics or you didn't practice very long.

 

Wisdom in Tao Teh Ching? Some. You take something that was written when a completely different culture & dialect as well as character meaning was the norm, translate it from this different culture & character meanings, then send a non-practitioner to translate it to English. Doesn't this sound oh-so-much like the Christian bible? Yes, it is mostly a collection of ways of living but unless you were brought up in the culture when it was written, it is mostly meaningless. Not that the translations don't have some good sayings. Just as the bible has some good sayings. It is NOT A THIS IS THE DEFINITE TRUTH AND THE ONLY TRUTH bible. Oral teachings, which are passed during a cultural change so as the meaning is not distorted, are so much more accurate representations of ancient knowledge. But you wouldn't know that would you? Why? Because you have never studied anything but your bible. It was physically impossible for one person to have written due to the time frame. But that is what you thought, isn't it. I went through that phase of thinking this was the "real" Chinese stuff back a very long time ago. Meh. It is not what one reads that gives them understanding, it is what they experience.

Something beyond your experience has been talked about and instead of attempting to learn from it you direct your nonsense at me because you don't like that fact?

 

 

"If we never experienced pain it would be almost impossible for us to die of natural causes. This goes for physical and psychological pain. We'd end up getting murdered or having a horrible accident."

Where in the world do you get this stuff? Very comical.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Ya Mu

[dwai]

Dwai,

There is no offence intended here, but let me clarify, there is no way in hell any of us are ever going to be free of pain, unless we're dead and that sort of makes the point moot, doesn't it? Pain is inevitable and essential. People who can't feel pain end up having numerous accidents because of the condition. Pain is essential, it lets us know something is wrong. You can believe you can transcend pain, but as a friend of mine pointed it, give that person who claims that he doesn't feel pain or suffering anymore the hammer, because he's really the one who needs to bop himself upside the head, so he can get a reality check.

 

The degree of suffering isn't important, rather it's the act of suffering that allows us to grow as individuals. Nothing anyone's said disproves my point, it just directs the argument in another direction. Does the enlightened person no longer have nerves? From what I've heard there are a lot of Buddhist monks that go to the dentist when they have toothaches, Taoists too. Can they manage pain better than others, perhaps, but they are not without pain and suffering.

 

People seem to take this to the extreme, as in I'm advocating masochism, rather than looking at the practical argument being made. The irony is that most Buddhist masters will tell you that the one has suffered much finds it easier to reach enlightenment. It's understanding suffering that allows us to transcend it and develop compassion for others, you can't understand it without experiencing it and realizing it's nature.

 

Aaron

 

The million dollar question you need to ask is "why is pain inevitable?"

As certain as is the fact that pain and suffering is inevitable, equally obvious to those who understand it is the fact that its root is ignorance. Just like underlying sight is light or hearing is sound, underlying suffering is ignorance. Pain and suffering is a reaction to something unpleasant...if you understand what causes it, you can let go of the reaction.

 

You put your hand in fire, your skin burns, neuro-transmitters signal "pain" and you pull your hand out of the fire. Only a dumbass will continue to keep his hand in the fire.

 

Similarly, it is ignorant to keep wanting to suffer....skilful people will adapt and learn how to get rid of the pain...

[Ya Mu]

Ahh... so you come back with the ever effervescent reply that all the "greats" give you, that only by studying it for decades can one ever understand the power of "insert mystical mumbo jumbo here".

 

I'm not going to continue to discuss something that I have no intention of studying for any extent of time in order to learn the 'truth'.

 

If you've read this post prior to this edit, ignore it. If you want to believe in TCM, that's fine, all I ask is that you don't cause entire species to go extinct for some miracle cure.

 

Aaron

Ahh... so you come back with the ever effervescent reply that all the "greats" give you, that only by studying it for decades can one ever understand the power of "insert mystical mumbo jumbo here".

...

Again it show that you have not bothered to do a bit of research on the subject. Most people learn methods to get started in medical qigong in a matter of days. And proficiency within 3 years. Yes, it does require time&effort. So does anything else in life.

 

No one asked you to study it for an extended period of time. What I asked was that you quit speaking ignorantly, ie, making incorrect trashy statements about something you admittedly know nothing about. You have vast resources at your disposal for learning about the efficacy of medical qigong. Books abound. Do you think all the people who have posted here on what it has done for them and all the case histories are lies? Do you think the posts made by myself, Dwai, Kempomaster, and others are just fabrications? Do you think all the medical qigong hospitals in China were there to perform "smoke & mirrors" and that the many people who were helped in them were lying? Do you think I would have a 35 year success at clinic utilizing medical qigong if it didn't work? Do you think all the people who had the successes were lying? If so, that is YOUR problem, not mine, and has no basis. Do you think all people are stupid and would continue to go to a clinic where nothing worked? Again, your problem; a bit of research would show you that it is a valid system. I have often pointed to Dr Ken Sancier's qigong database, but it does require a bit of time & effort to search and it sounds like you are too lazy to invest in that research before opening your mouth.

 

"all I ask is that you don't cause entire species to go extinct for some miracle cure."

Sounds like a good idea to me. Just like it is a good idea for someone who knows absolutely nothing about the subject to not attempt to trash a whole system & profession just because they like dark ages ideas like "pain is needed" instead of progression in awareness.

 

The existing and failing system of medicine will fail regardless and there needs to be community based health care. Medical qigong could play a large role in that and I believe it will.

 

Thanks for screwing up a whole thread with your ignorance and personal insults. Several people had posted some really good info about pain and now are probably scared off because of your continued attempts to trash a complete system and now want no part of it. If you came and said that you had studied medical qigong and it didn't work for you or that you had a problem and went for medical qigong sessions and they did nothing for you, then that would have some validity in that they were your experiences. But here you are trashing the profession of a whole group of people, several who post here on this board, all while self-admittedly knowing not one damn thing about it. These personal insults should stop. And yes, insulting my and many other's profession simply because you want to is a personal insult. Do some research.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Ya Mu]

The million dollar question you need to ask is "why is pain inevitable?"

As certain as is the fact that pain and suffering is inevitable, equally obvious to those who understand it is the fact that its root is ignorance. Just like underlying sight is light or hearing is sound, underlying suffering is ignorance. Pain and suffering is a reaction to something unpleasant...if you understand what causes it, you can let go of the reaction.

 

You put your hand in fire, your skin burns, neuro-transmitters signal "pain" and you pull your hand out of the fire. Only a dumbass will continue to keep his hand in the fire.

 

Similarly, it is ignorant to keep wanting to suffer....skilful people will adapt and learn how to get rid of the pain...

 

Only a dumbass will continue to keep his hand in the fire.

 

Yes, they would have to be pretty dumb but would surely find out it isn't "a pleasant surprise".

[Aaron]

Again it show that you have not bothered to do a bit of research on the subject. Most people learn methods to get started in medical qigong in a matter of days. And proficiency within 3 years. Yes, it does require time&effort. So does anything else in life.

 

No one asked you to study it for an extended period of time. What I asked was that you quit speaking ignorantly, ie, making incorrect trashy statements about something you admittedly know nothing about. You have vast resources at your disposal for learning about the efficacy of medical qigong. Books abound. Do you think all the people who have posted here on what it has done for them and all the case histories are lies? Do you think the posts made by myself, Dwai, Kempomaster, and others are just fabrications? Do you think all the medical qigong hospitals in China were there to perform "smoke & mirrors" and that the many people who were helped in them were lying? Do you think I would have a 35 year success at clinic utilizing medical qigong if it didn't work? Do you think all the people who had the successes were lying? If so, that is YOUR problem, not mine, and has no basis. Do you think all people are stupid and would continue to go to a clinic where nothing worked? Again, your problem; a bit of research would show you that it is a valid system. I have often pointed to Dr Ken Sancier's qigong database, but it does require a bit of time & effort to search and it sounds like you are too lazy to invest in that research before opening your mouth.

 

"all I ask is that you don't cause entire species to go extinct for some miracle cure."

Sounds like a good idea to me. Just like it is a good idea for someone who knows absolutely nothing about the subject to not attempt to trash a whole system & profession just because they like dark ages ideas like "pain is needed" instead of progression in awareness.

 

The existing and failing system of medicine will fail regardless and there needs to be community based health care. Medical qigong could play a large role in that and I believe it will.

 

Thanks for screwing up a whole thread with your ignorance and personal insults. Several people had posted some really good info about pain and now are probably scared off because of your continued attempts to trash a complete system and now want no part of it. If you came and said that you had studied medical qigong and it didn't work for you or that you had a problem and went for medical qigong sessions and they did nothing for you, then that would have some validity in that they were your experiences. But here you are trashing the profession of a whole group of people, several who post here on this board, all while self-admittedly knowing not one damn thing about it. These personal insults should stop. And yes, insulting my and many other's profession simply because you want to is a personal insult. Do some research.

 

Yes I think you could have a successful clinic open for 35 years and still be founded on smoke and mirrors, simply because of the placebo effect and also people will normally get well on their own if given enough time. I don't believe that someone can heal someone else by waving their hands above them and manipulating their chi. I can understand how acupuncture works, so I have no problem with that, but I think chi manipulation as a form of healing is no more valid than a preacher laying hands on someone that's sick and curing them.

 

Trust me, I know a lot of people who believe in qigong traditional chinese medicine, and they spend thousands of dollars to learn it, but I have yet to see any scientific evidence supported by the Western world that says qigong energy healing works, hence the reason I say it's smoke and mirrors. it plays on the wishes of the patient and they either heal themselves through a placebo effect or they get better naturally, but we say it's due to the mystical powers of the great qigong healer!

 

Show me actual evidence in a western medical review, one that has been repeated, and I will be the first to go to a qigong healer when I find out I'm sick, rather than a normal doctor for treatment. Although I think the medical doctor is cheaper, so maybe not. Funny too, since one had to go to school for ten years to get their degree and the other just had to take a mail order course or weekend workshop.

 

Aaron

[Owledge]

I think Ya Mu and Twinner are both saying very true stuff and horrible stuff. This is so highly philosophical that I am wondering why there is so much dispute.

 

Maybe this idea helps explore the topic if you two cooperatively focus on it:

Look at people who are very ambitious and successful. The stereotypical manager type who would call a poor person a lazy ass who should get a job. No empathy there. How comes? Doesn't the manager have had a difficult life, experienced pain? Probably. But still no empathy. Why? What makes him shun the person who wasn't successful like himself?

 

Interesting case from my life experience: A guy who was a successful businessman. Then somehow his whole life fell apart and he became horribly sick, wandering the streets with ugly wounds and paralysis, begging for money for diabetes medication. And that guy was still looking down on heroin addicts hanging around in the streets.

 

Could it be that 'successful' people like those are actually innately hating the struggle they had to go through? This would mean that the pain spreads to other people, propagates itself.

 

Ponder on the common phenomenon that someone who suffered a lot might either say: "Why should others have it easier than me?" or "I suffered so much in my life, I want to help others avoid that."

How comes that here two people who both suffered have such opposite viewpoints? Where does the second guy's compassion come from?

Edited April 3, 2012 by Owledge

[寒月 Hanyue]

I will state upfront I have not read all the posts back and forth from Twinner and Ya Mu, I simply got bored. Sorry guys. It started out interesting, but hey...well you know.

 

Several people had posted some really good info about pain and now are probably scared off because of your continued attempts to trash a complete system

 

Why raise your head above the parapets?

 

I simply won't discuss things of a personal nature. There is nothing worse than being told the way you have come to live with and perceive aspects of your life are wrong. EVERYONE's experience of pain is unique IMHO. Walk 30 years in my shoes and someone will know what I have been through, but will they be in the same place as me? See the world as I do? Feel the same about things as I do? No. And they wouldn't be wrong either. See the quote by Dr Xie in my signature.

 

This is the fundamental difference between Taoism and Buddhism and the major reason why Zen Buddhist deviate in their understanding of compassion. The majority of Buddhists believe that the highest form of compassion can only come from detachment from the world, when one has ceased to suffer, Taoists believe the highest form of compassion can only come from an understanding of one's own suffering.

 

I find this interesting, I had not conceived of the differences this way before. I will ponder this.

 

The nature of suffering is not an abstract quality and it is not different from pain, that's just semantics. Suffering is the result of pain, which by definition is an unpleasant experience, the two cannot exist without each other.

 

Well, you can write it any which way. But personally I feel that its semantics to argue that they are the same. Especially when you also say that sufferring results from pain. So they are the same but different eh? Just raggin on ya.

 

Suffering does result from pain, but pain is NOT suffering. And experiencing pain does NOT mean suffering will or has to follow. It means our attachments and projections can create suffering OUT OF the pain that is experienced. Liberation from suffering does not mean liberation from pain. It is how we respond to and deal with pain that either will or will not lead into suffering. That is my understanding and so far no-one has explained anything to me that makes me feel differently about that.

 

Our emotional pain is every bit as real as our physical pain and cause infinitely more suffering, that's a fact. Ask anyone who has suffered from depression.

 

Again, I wholeheartedly disagree. Physical pain is very real. Emotional anguish is very real. But trying to put judgement values of worse on one or the other shows a gross over simplification and lack of experience in either IMO (apologies if this is not the case, but it is how it comes across to me). There is a very real cycle and relationship between mental emotional anguish and physical pain, a web far too intricate to unweave in any real sense.

 

I am not trying to start a who's translation is best argument, I will however add the following. As there are many on this board who stay silent who may benefit from an expanded look at the part that has been posted. And simply saying go read the original usually fosters little.

 

Regarding Chpt 13 of the Dao de jing.

 

Translation is one thing, interpretation something else entirely. Both are tricky at the best of times. Each to their own, regarding reading understanding into such old texts. I always go back to source if at all possible.

 

寵辱若驚，

貴大患若身。

何謂寵辱若驚？

寵為下，

得之若驚，

失之若驚，

是謂寵辱若驚。

何謂貴大患若身？

吾所以有大患者，

為吾有身，

及吾無身，

吾有何患？

故貴以身為天下，

若可寄天下；

愛以身為天下，

若可託天下。

 

Favour and disgrace are like fear,

Honour and distress are like the self.

What does this mean?

Favour debases us,

Afraid when we get it,

Afraid when we lose it.

The self embodies distress,

No self,

No distress.

Respect the world as your self:

The world can be your lodging.

Love the world as your self:

The world can be your trust. Addiss & Lombardo

 

While no translation is perfect. This is MUCH closer and more direct translation from looking at the Chinese. As an exmaple of the whole chapter lets look at the first two lines, which always tend to set the tone for the rest of the page anyway.

 

"Favour and disgrace are like fear,

Honour and distress are like the self."

 

Is fairly direct and virtually word for word from the Chinese.

 

"Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.

Prize calamities as your own body."

 

There does not appear to be a 'welcome' or 'prizing' of anything mentioned in the lines of the Dao de jing you are referring to. The rest of the translation by Wu is really an interpretive translation based on HIS views, and not a close translation at all. Wu was not a Daoist, he was Roman Catholic, I personally would take his translation with a large grain of salt.

 

Every translation of this chapter is markedly different, and varies in the degree of re-interpretation by the translator. The Addis & Lombardo retains the writing style of the Chinese and sticks much closer to what is said, and contains far less 'additions' of their own.

 

As for reading understanding from the chapter, well that is tricky. It like putting your foot in a flowing river, you never enter the same water twice. Read it again in 10 years and your understanding changes.

 

Well now those reading this thread have the Chinese and a very close, with minimal personal addition, translation, and can come up with their own understanding. Which is best in many reagrds. I am not going to, or trying to debate the meaning of the chapter. Rather I am attempting to point out the pitfalls of translations and interpretations, and opening the referenced chapter up for wider understanding in the contaxt of the thread so far.

 

The understanding I get from reading the Chinese is not the same as that already posted . Neither myself nor the native Chinese readers I asked, can see anything about embracing suffering or 'welcoming' anything. So I encourage those interested to engage with the text itself to find their own understanding and meaning.

 

Best regards,

[johndoe2012]

This is the fundamental difference between Taoism and Buddhism and the major reason why Zen Buddhist deviate in their understanding of compassion. The majority of Buddhists believe that the highest form of compassion can only come from detachment from the world, when one has ceased to suffer, Taoists believe the highest form of compassion can only come from an understanding of one's own suffering.

 

Twinner,

 

Could you provide some sources on that?

 

I know there are different schools in Buddhism, I think the easiest way to categorize them is whether "people return to the world" as an act of compassion (Mahayana) or "ascend and then don't return" (Theravada).

 

Where you get the idea of the Taoist idea of compassion I would to know; I have never heard about that before.

 

IMHO suffering is a concept from Buddhism and is said to end with Buddhist enlightenment.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Yes I think you could have a successful clinic open for 35 years and still be founded on smoke and mirrors, simply because of the placebo effect and also people will normally get well on their own if given enough time. I don't believe that someone can heal someone else by waving their hands above them and manipulating their chi. I can understand how acupuncture works, so I have no problem with that, but I think chi manipulation as a form of healing is no more valid than a preacher laying hands on someone that's sick and curing them.

 

Trust me, I know a lot of people who believe in qigong traditional chinese medicine, and they spend thousands of dollars to learn it, but I have yet to see any scientific evidence supported by the Western world that says qigong energy healing works, hence the reason I say it's smoke and mirrors. it plays on the wishes of the patient and they either heal themselves through a placebo effect or they get better naturally, but we say it's due to the mystical powers of the great qigong healer!

 

Show me actual evidence in a western medical review, one that has been repeated, and I will be the first to go to a qigong healer when I find out I'm sick, rather than a normal doctor for treatment. Although I think the medical doctor is cheaper, so maybe not. Funny too, since one had to go to school for ten years to get their degree and the other just had to take a mail order course or weekend workshop.

 

Aaron

 

...oh hang on. I can't be bothered.

Edited April 3, 2012 by snowmonki

[Aaron]

I will state upfront I have not read all the posts back and forth from Twinner and Ya Mu, I simply got bored. Sorry guys. It started out interesting, but hey...well you know.

 

 

 

Why raise your head above the parapets?

 

I simply won't discuss things of a personal nature. There is nothing worse than being told the way you have come to live with and perceive aspects of your life are wrong. EVERYONE's experience of pain is unique IMHO. Walk 30 years in my shoes and someone will know what I have been through, but will they be in the same place as me? See the world as I do? Feel the same about things as I do? No. And they wouldn't be wrong either. See the quote by Dr Xie in my signature.

 

 

 

I find this interesting, I had not conceived of the differences this way before. I will ponder this.

 

 

 

Well, you can write it any which way. But personally I feel that its semantics to argue that they are the same. Especially when you also say that sufferring results from pain. So they are the same but different eh? Just raggin on ya.

 

Suffering does result from pain, but pain is NOT suffering. And experiencing pain does NOT mean suffering will or has to follow. It means our attachments and projections can create suffering OUT OF the pain that is experienced. Liberation from suffering does not mean liberation from pain. It is how we respond to and deal with pain that either will or will not lead into suffering. That is my understanding and so far no-one has explained anything to me that makes me feel differently about that.

 

 

 

Again, I wholeheartedly disagree. Physical pain is very real. Emotional anguish is very real. But trying to put judgement values of worse on one or the other shows a gross over simplification and lack of experience in either IMO (apologies if this is not the case, but it is how it comes across to me). There is a very real cycle and relationship between mental emotional anguish and physical pain, a web far too intricate to unweave in any real sense.

 

I am not trying to start a who's translation is best argument, I will however add the following. As there are many on this board who stay silent who may benefit from an expanded look at the part that has been posted. And simply saying go read the original usually fosters little.

 

Regarding Chpt 13 of the Dao de jing.

 

Translation is one thing, interpretation something else entirely. Both are tricky at the best of times. Each to their own, regarding reading understanding into such old texts. I always go back to source if at all possible.

 

寵辱若驚，

貴大患若身。

何謂寵辱若驚？

寵為下，

得之若驚，

失之若驚，

是謂寵辱若驚。

何謂貴大患若身？

吾所以有大患者，

為吾有身，

及吾無身，

吾有何患？

故貴以身為天下，

若可寄天下；

愛以身為天下，

若可託天下。

 

Favour and disgrace are like fear,

Honour and distress are like the self.

What does this mean?

Favour debases us,

Afraid when we get it,

Afraid when we lose it.

The self embodies distress,

No self,

No distress.

Respect the world as your self:

The world can be your lodging.

Love the world as your self:

The world can be your trust. Addiss & Lombardo

 

While no translation is perfect. This is MUCH closer and more direct translation from looking at the Chinese. As an exmaple of the whole chapter lets look at the first two lines, which always tend to set the tone for the rest of the page anyway.

 

"Favour and disgrace are like fear,

Honour and distress are like the self."

 

Is fairly direct and virtually word for word from the Chinese.

 

"Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise.

Prize calamities as your own body."

 

There does not appear to be a 'welcome' or 'prizing' of anything mentioned in the lines of the Dao de jing you are referring to. The rest of the translation by Wu is really an interpretive translation based on HIS views, and not a close translation at all. Wu was not a Daoist, he was Roman Catholic, I personally would take his translation with a large grain of salt.

 

Every translation of this chapter is markedly different, and varies in the degree of re-interpretation by the translator. The Addis & Lombardo retains the writing style of the Chinese and sticks much closer to what is said, and contains far less 'additions' of their own.

 

As for reading understanding from the chapter, well that is tricky. It like putting your foot in a flowing river, you never enter the same water twice. Read it again in 10 years and your understanding changes.

 

Well now those reading this thread have the Chinese and a very close, with minimal personal addition, translation, and can come up with their own understanding. Which is best in many reagrds. I am not going to, or trying to debate the meaning of the chapter. Rather I am attempting to point out the pitfalls of translations and interpretations, and opening the referenced chapter up for wider understanding in the contaxt of the thread so far.

 

The understanding I get from reading the Chinese is not the same as that already posted . Neither myself nor the native Chinese readers I asked, can see anything about embracing suffering or 'welcoming' anything. So I encourage those interested to engage with the text itself to find their own understanding and meaning.

 

Best regards,

 

Most academics respect Wu (who was a nationally renowned translator and international lawyer, as well as a native Chinese) as having one of the most accurate translations of the Wang Bi version of the Tao Teh Ching. I have never heard of the translation you posted and it seriously deviates from all the respected translations I've read, so I have to assume it's not accurate.

 

Oh and I have read it after 10 years and 20 years and my understanding has changed... it took some life experience to understand it as I have today.

 

 

If you want to separate pain from suffering, that's fine, but you're essentially saying that someone can experience pain, but not suffer from it. In that sense is cutting your finger or having your arm chopped off painful then? If one does not suffer from it, can it actually be painful?

 

If you're proposing that the Buddhist mystics are capable of eliminating pain via detachment, I'd have to see proof.

 

Other than that, thanks for the responses and again, I'm not trying to insult TCM practitioners. You're free to practice as you see fit and if you feel through your experience that it's a valid method of healing, then by all means follow your heart, but I haven't seen any evidence to support my doing so in this regard.

 

Aaron

Edited April 3, 2012 by Twinner

[Aaron]

Twinner,

 

Could you provide some sources on that?

 

I know there are different schools in Buddhism, I think the easiest way to categorize them is whether "people return to the world" as an act of compassion (Mahayana) or "ascend and then don't return" (Theravada).

 

Where you get the idea of the Taoist idea of compassion I would to know; I have never heard about that before.

 

IMHO suffering is a concept from Buddhism and is said to end with Buddhist enlightenment.

 

Hello Chris D,

 

Give me some time to find the sources, but I have no problem explaining this rational. I should point out I was putting it into a context that compared the relationship of suffering to the Taoist ideal and the Buddhist ideal, but there are some references to suffering the Tao Teh Ching, at least indirectly.

 

Aaron

Edited April 3, 2012 by Twinner

[Ya Mu]

Yes I think you could have a successful clinic open for 35 years and still be founded on smoke and mirrors, simply because of the placebo effect and also people will normally get well on their own if given enough time. I don't believe that someone can heal someone else by waving their hands above them and manipulating their chi. I can understand how acupuncture works, so I have no problem with that, but I think chi manipulation as a form of healing is no more valid than a preacher laying hands on someone that's sick and curing them.

 

Trust me, I know a lot of people who believe in qigong traditional chinese medicine, and they spend thousands of dollars to learn it, but I have yet to see any scientific evidence supported by the Western world that says qigong energy healing works, hence the reason I say it's smoke and mirrors. it plays on the wishes of the patient and they either heal themselves through a placebo effect or they get better naturally, but we say it's due to the mystical powers of the great qigong healer!

 

Show me actual evidence in a western medical review, one that has been repeated, and I will be the first to go to a qigong healer when I find out I'm sick, rather than a normal doctor for treatment. Although I think the medical doctor is cheaper, so maybe not. Funny too, since one had to go to school for ten years to get their degree and the other just had to take a mail order course or weekend workshop.

 

Aaron

Got to admit, even though from a totally misinformed or rather uninformed viewpoint, this post doesn't contain quite the level of animosity your others showed.

Trust you - not in a million years. You have never studied qigong or medical qigong yet have such a strong view; very funny.

 

When you say show you the western medical science, are you referring to the same science that said, through the "scientific method" of double blind studies, that (gee so very many now I can't recall the number) multiple drugs were completely safe and had efficacy above the statistical norm, yet history of use PROVED them to be harmful (actually deadly in many instances) and many of them to have no efficacy at all? If so, then no.

 

I am posting the following here for others, not for you, as I doubt you will go to the trouble of checking it out. But in reference to your last uninformed sentence, I would like to assist in providing a bit of edification.

The first program, Clinical Practitioner, requires generally a 3 year period. The 2nd one posted here, the Level IV Teacher, requires far more than 10 years of study as it requires 10 years of teaching instructors and clinical practitioners. I am a level IV Teacher with this organization and am also officially certified in medical qigong through the Baoding Qigong Healing Hospital in China(PRC).

 

from www.nqa.org:

 

Clinical Practitioner

This describes the person who practices applications of healing qigong with emission and projection of qi and may also teach prescriptive exercises. This level has the ability to generate qi, absorb qi from the atmosphere, and have trained their qi. They have built a strong energetic foundation through disciplined practice of qigong and possess an understanding of healing principles

 

at least 500 hours documented formal Qigong training

includes at least 350 didactic hours (see website for description) 200 of which are specific to Qigong

includes at least 100 hours of qigong treatment which may include contact and non-contact qi emission, adjunct massage manipulations, and teaching of prescriptive exercises or any combination thereof.

at least 2 years clinical experience

must carry a current liability insurance policy

 

 

Level IV Teacher: The Highest Certification Level Granted by the National Qigong Association. While not necessarily the clinician, the Teacher has at least 1000 hours of training and demonstrates a level of knowledge and understanding deeper than Level III. The Teacher should be able to generate qi, absorb qi from the atmosphere, has trained his/her qi. The Teacher has built a strong energetic foundation through disciplined practice of qigong and possesses an understanding of healing principles.

 

This is the top internal certification/recognition of the organization and denotes wisdom, insight, qi transmission, and empowering. These senior practitioners have taught instructors of qigong or qigong clinical therapists for 10 years or more. They act as mentors for others in the field and are acknowledged senior practitioners by the NQA. This level is recognized to teach all levels of formal instruction.

 

At least 1000 hours of documented formal instruction in qigong and at least 10 years of qigong teaching and passage of an interview process is required. These interviews could take place at the annual NQA conference and needs to include at least three members of the Application Review Committee.

 

at least 1000 hours documented formal Qigong training

at least 10 years Qigong experience teaching teachers.

must sit an interview with members of the Application Review Committee

A student of a level IV teacher has the option of, in lieu of listing course information from that teacher in the application, substituting a strong letter of recommendation from a Level IV NQA Certified Teacher that includes the number of hours of relevant instruction, general description of coursework, and descriptive comments about student ability.

 

Aaron, I strongly suggest you actually learn about these things before you bad mouth them and say totally misleading and wrong information.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Ya Mu]

I think Ya Mu and Twinner are both saying very true stuff and horrible stuff. This is so highly philosophical that I am wondering why there is so much dispute.

...

How comes that here two people who both suffered have such opposite viewpoints? Where does the second guy's compassion come from?

I don't really know to what you are referring when you say I have said "horrible stuff", but I'm sure I'll find out. My disagreement has been about the insults she said in every post after I pissed him off with a strongly worded opinion about "pain is needed" and having a bit of fun with my view of a translation that I knew had nothing to do with what was really said by the writings attributed to a fictional single person, yet him taking it as gospel, just like Christians take King James version of Bible as the word of God yet the translations show oh-so-many mistakes and omissions.

 

The aspect about pain can be philosophical. My view comes from both personal experienced pain, hospital training, and working in a pain clinic for a very long time. The insults about medical qigong has no philosophical components and were based on his being pissed off at me. Medical qigong itself is a straightforward medical system from the hospitals of China with a rich & vivid history of use in China and now a good half century history of use in other parts of the world including the USA; there was no philosophical component here. Dig?

 

True Compassion, as I have already written, is actually far removed from sympathy. One requires action (no action and it is only a word), the other doesn't.

[Aaron]

Got to admit, even though from a totally misinformed or rather uninformed viewpoint, this post doesn't contain quite the level of animosity your others showed.

Trust you - not in a million years. You have never studied qigong or medical qigong yet have such a strong view; very funny.

 

When you say show you the western medical science, are you referring to the same science that said, through the "scientific method" of double blind studies, that (gee so very many now I can't recall the number) multiple drugs were completely safe and had efficacy above the statistical norm, yet history of use PROVED them to be harmful (actually deadly in many instances) and many of them to have no efficacy at all? If so, then no.

 

I am posting the following here for others, not for you, as I doubt you will go to the trouble of checking it out. But in reference to your last uninformed sentence, I would like to assist in providing a bit of edification.

The first program, Clinical Practitioner, requires generally a 3 year period. The 2nd one posted here, the Level IV Teacher, requires far more than 10 years of study as it requires 10 years of teaching instructors and clinical practitioners. I am a level IV Teacher with this organization and am also officially certified in medical qigong through the Baoding Qigong Healing Hospital in China(PRC).

 

from www.nqa.org:

 

Clinical Practitioner

This describes the person who practices applications of healing qigong with emission and projection of qi and may also teach prescriptive exercises. This level has the ability to generate qi, absorb qi from the atmosphere, and have trained their qi. They have built a strong energetic foundation through disciplined practice of qigong and possess an understanding of healing principles

 

at least 500 hours documented formal Qigong training

includes at least 350 didactic hours (see website for description) 200 of which are specific to Qigong

includes at least 100 hours of qigong treatment which may include contact and non-contact qi emission, adjunct massage manipulations, and teaching of prescriptive exercises or any combination thereof.

at least 2 years clinical experience

must carry a current liability insurance policy

 

 

Level IV Teacher: The Highest Certification Level Granted by the National Qigong Association. While not necessarily the clinician, the Teacher has at least 1000 hours of training and demonstrates a level of knowledge and understanding deeper than Level III. The Teacher should be able to generate qi, absorb qi from the atmosphere, has trained his/her qi. The Teacher has built a strong energetic foundation through disciplined practice of qigong and possesses an understanding of healing principles.

 

This is the top internal certification/recognition of the organization and denotes wisdom, insight, qi transmission, and empowering. These senior practitioners have taught instructors of qigong or qigong clinical therapists for 10 years or more. They act as mentors for others in the field and are acknowledged senior practitioners by the NQA. This level is recognized to teach all levels of formal instruction.

 

At least 1000 hours of documented formal instruction in qigong and at least 10 years of qigong teaching and passage of an interview process is required. These interviews could take place at the annual NQA conference and needs to include at least three members of the Application Review Committee.

 

at least 1000 hours documented formal Qigong training

at least 10 years Qigong experience teaching teachers.

must sit an interview with members of the Application Review Committee

A student of a level IV teacher has the option of, in lieu of listing course information from that teacher in the application, substituting a strong letter of recommendation from a Level IV NQA Certified Teacher that includes the number of hours of relevant instruction, general description of coursework, and descriptive comments about student ability.

 

Aaron, I strongly suggest you actually learn about these things before you bad mouth them and say totally misleading and wrong information.

 

I'm only stating what I know to be true, not what is necessarily true. The truth to me is found in the facts and I have yet to see any facts regarding the use of Chi in the healing of others.

 

As I said before, if you believe this to be true, fine, all the more power to you. I would rather not accept something on faith, but rather see concrete examples of it's usefulness and benefit (which have been documented in Tai Chi and Qigong, but not in TCM). If that makes me a hatemonger, so be it, but I'm not making these comments based on hate, but rather just stating the facts.

 

If I've failed at all today, it's by resorting to arguing when it's not necessary. Being right or wrong isn't important, but rather living as you should live. If you're doing that to the best of your ability then you have nothing to worry about.

 

Aaron

[Green Tiger]

[Ya Mu]

Traditional western medicine cost of pain in the USA

 

From the American Academy of Pain Medicine:

"According to a recent Institute of Medicine Report: Relieving Pain in America: A Blueprint for Transforming Prevention, Care, Education, and Research, pain is a significant public health problem that costs society at least $560-$635 billion annually, an amount equal to about $2,000.00 for everyone living in the U.S"

 

From the Mayday Fund referencing a NIH report:

"A 1998 National Institutes of Health (NIH) report concluded that just the economic toll of chronic pain may be estimated at $100 billion a year in the United States. It has increased significantly since

then"

 

Osteoarthritis Pain abstract study

From this website: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1533-2500.2012.00535.x/abstract;jsessionid=7D2863A75C64A6A6000BF81995E62B4F.d02t01?userIsAuthenticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=

"Total adjusted osteoarthritis-related costs for newly diagnosed patients were $6,811 annually"

 

Visit to a certified medical qigong therapist who offered Guaranteed Pain Relief or NO Fee:

Only if pain relief, per the client,not the Therapist, occurred

$30 in 1980's

$45 in 1990's

$75 in 2010

This was guaranteed, mind you, whereas the western medicine studies expenditures mentioned above offered no guarantees - at all.

 

Interesting comparison of expenditure even though we have no apples to apples data.

 

Now, which was cheaper?

 

The public spends much money on pain relief and pain is a large problem. The public deserves techniques that actually work.

[Owledge]

@Ya Mu

Sorry, when I wrote "horrible stuff" I meant more the gap between your demeanor and what I would have expected. My expectations were different from reality because I've read here about alleged character traits of practitioners of your technique. I assumed that a 'high level' energetic healing practice would also create a profound understanding about energy interactions between people and how to act in a healing way in everyday life. It's just my personal standards I guess. From that viewpoint, it appears that in your interaction with Twinner (your choice of reaction), you are not practicing healing, and you also show a vulnerability, which is - as usually - based on fear. I'm not claiming that I'm exceptionally skillful at avoiding dispute, but I have awareness.

You allowed Twinner to gain control over you. (And vica versa, that's why the dispute it heated up and is still running.)

 

Maybe these words are in some way helpful. (Please look at the moon, not at the finger pointing at it.)

Edited April 3, 2012 by Owledge

[Aaron]

Wow . . . this topic kind of got derailed, huh? Still, mostly an enjoyable discussion.

 

On the topic of pain: I too am a sufferer of chronic . . . I prefer to call it 'irritation.' At first the irritation manifested as a pain in my back that was occasionally pretty severe. After spending over a year (and quite a bit of money) consulting chiropractors, regular physicians, physical therapists, and massage therapists I finally found some relief through the practice of yoga, chi kung, and tai chi. It took a lot of time though, and the journey has not always been pleasant. Has the pain been beneficial? As a motivator, I suppose it has, but I still want it eliminated. I think some people become attached to their pain and are actually afraid to part with it.

 

Some of the most recent discoveries I've made about my chronic symptoms, is that they clearly have emotional components. I suspect now that emotional trauma can actually manifest as physical trauma and vise versa. I'm still pretty new to all of this, but I've seen enough first-hand evidence to convince me that there are indeed subtle energies at work in my body and tapping into those energies can be more powerful than any other 'western' therapy that I've tried.

 

As far as empirical evidence is concerned . . . allow me to quote a 2004 paper by Tom Rogers.

 

 

 

As an aside, I'd hardly consider that an article from an unbiased source, Tom Rogers is the president and CEO of the Qigong Institute, the people that run the website it appears on.

 

In regards to your back pain, I'm not a doctor or Medical Qigong practicioner, so I wont give you medical or energy advice, but what I will say is that from my understanding they've linked lower back pain to stress and anxiety for a long time now. Making that connection was quite brilliant in my opinion, many people fail to realize it. Good luck with your future treatments, I hope everything works out for you.

 

 

 

Aaron

[Ya Mu]

... but rather just stating the facts.

I have seen no "facts" in what you have stated, only opinions.

But again, welcome back to the thread as a contributor. It is much better. See how many more people have posted since you toned down the insults?

 

Wow . . . this topic kind of got derailed, huh? Still, mostly an enjoyable discussion.

 

On the topic of pain: I too am a sufferer of chronic . . . I prefer to call it 'irritation.' At first the irritation manifested as a pain in my back that was occasionally pretty severe. After spending over a year (and quite a bit of money) consulting chiropractors, regular physicians, physical therapists, and massage therapists I finally found some relief through the practice of yoga, chi kung, and tai chi. It took a lot of time though, and the journey has not always been pleasant. Has the pain been beneficial? As a motivator, I suppose it has, but I still want it eliminated. I think some people become attached to their pain and are actually afraid to part with it.

 

Some of the most recent discoveries I've made about my chronic symptoms, is that they clearly have emotional components. I suspect now that emotional trauma can actually manifest as physical trauma and vise versa. I'm still pretty new to all of this, but I've seen enough first-hand evidence to convince me that there are indeed subtle energies at work in my body and tapping into those energies can be more powerful than any other 'western' therapy that I've tried.

 

As far as empirical evidence is concerned . . . allow me to quote a 2004 paper by Tom Rogers.

 

"I suspect now that emotional trauma can actually manifest as physical trauma and vise versa."

Bingo! YES!!!

 

"I've seen enough first-hand evidence to convince me that there are indeed subtle energies at work in my body and tapping into those energies can be more powerful than any other 'western' therapy that I've tried."

Yes, this was the case for me as well. I had spent my life savings to western medicine with absolutely no results whatsoever and could barely walk or function in society, before I found Chinese Taoist Medicine.

 

"I think some people become attached to their pain and are actually afraid to part with it."

I believe this to be true as well and it is a part of my clinical experience that it is true.

[Owledge]

"I think some people become attached to their pain and are actually afraid to part with it."

I believe this to be true as well and it is a part of my clinical experience that it is true.

Even the amazingly powerful faith/intent/energy healer Bruno Gröning, when attempting to heal people, occasionally told them to stop holding on to their illnesses if they want to be cured.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Owledge

[Ya Mu]

@Ya Mu

Sorry, when I wrote "horrible stuff" I meant more the gap between your demeanor and what I would have expected. My expectations were different from reality because I've read here about alleged character traits of practitioners of your technique. I assumed that a 'high level' energetic healing practice would also create a profound understanding about energy interactions between people and how to act in a healing way in everyday life. It's just my personal standards I guess. From that viewpoint, it appears that in your interaction with Twinner (your choice of reaction), you are not practicing healing, and you also show a vulnerability, which is - as usually - based on fear. I'm not claiming that I'm exceptionally skillful at avoiding dispute, but I have awareness.

You allowed Twinner to gain control over you. (And vica versa, that's why the dispute it heated up and is still running.)

 

Maybe these words are in some way helpful. (Please look at the moon, not at the finger pointing at it.)

Thanks for your objective ha ha opinion.

No one has control over me but myself. I wanted twinner to see what he was doing, I added no energy of my own but simply reflected what he was throwing right back. This is an important energetic lesson and you can see that it worked because he got tired of receiving exactly what he threw and is now posting in a civil manner. Notice the increase of posters now? Do you really think it would have been better for me to say nothing, let misinformation stand, then someone comes along and believes that stuff? No. One thing you fail to understand is that I post usually not for the person, to be "right" or "wrong" but as a voice for medical qigong, which as you can see, is VASTLY misunderstood.

 

Suggest you give up your preconceptions about how things work when you don't understand what it really going on as well as any particular ultimate healing goal. Energetics happen in the background of which you are unaware. On the suface the thing to do is back off when insults are hurled your way, and sometimes indeed this is best. Other times a catalyst is needed, and this catalyst can be energy feedback. So what your mind tells you is the "right" thing to do at any given moment is not necessarily (actually seldom is) the best overall thing to do. This is called "flying in the face of convention" (Chinese have a name for this) energetically. Not caring what someone may think of you but actually attempting to do what is needed. In other words, what may conventionally seem the best is not always so. Suggest you practice your qigong. I just did.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Ya Mu

[dwai]

I'm only stating what I know to be true, not what is necessarily true. The truth to me is found in the facts and I have yet to see any facts regarding the use of Chi in the healing of others.

 

As I said before, if you believe this to be true, fine, all the more power to you. I would rather not accept something on faith, but rather see concrete examples of it's usefulness and benefit (which have been documented in Tai Chi and Qigong, but not in TCM). If that makes me a hatemonger, so be it, but I'm not making these comments based on hate, but rather just stating the facts.

 

If I've failed at all today, it's by resorting to arguing when it's not necessary. Being right or wrong isn't important, but rather living as you should live. If you're doing that to the best of your ability then you have nothing to worry about.

 

Aaron

 

Aaron,

 

Some important questions needs to be answered (by you) in order to establish a baseline for discussion --

 

a) do you accept that there is subtle energy flowing in our bodies that is called Qi/Ki/Prana?

b ) do you accept that there is a subtle network of channels through which is energy flows?

 

If you don't accept the above two, and in fact believe in the contrary, there is no point in continuing discussions. To be able to have a conversation on efficacy of Qi treatment, it is important to have a common ground. If that common ground is that you are a total skeptic then I'm afraid no amount of debate/discussion is going to change your mind. In fact, my experience with skeptics is that they are too closed to exploring other ideas and even experiential evidence is "rationalized" away...

[Ya Mu]

As an aside, I'd hardly consider that an article from an unbiased source, Tom Rogers is the president and CEO of the Qigong Institute, the people that run the website it appears on.

 

In regards to your back pain, I'm not a doctor or Medical Qigong practicioner, so I wont give you medical or energy advice, but what I will say is that from my understanding they've linked lower back pain to stress and anxiety for a long time now. Making that connection was quite brilliant in my opinion, many people fail to realize it. Good luck with your future treatments, I hope everything works out for you.

 

Aaron

Dr Ken Sancier, who started that website after he retired from SRI as a senior scientist, established it as a non-profit institute and began to collect scientific abstracts on qigong & medical qigong. He has an impeccable reputation. I did suggest you look at some of the research.

 

Lower back pain can most definitely have a component in stress as well as anxiety. A contributor to the problem for sure. But the problem can be from many things and stress alone is usually not what started the low back pain.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Ya Mu

[Aaron]

Twinner,

 

Could you provide some sources on that?

 

I know there are different schools in Buddhism, I think the easiest way to categorize them is whether "people return to the world" as an act of compassion (Mahayana) or "ascend and then don't return" (Theravada).

 

Where you get the idea of the Taoist idea of compassion I would to know; I have never heard about that before.

 

IMHO suffering is a concept from Buddhism and is said to end with Buddhist enlightenment.

 

Read Tao and Zen. It talks about this difference in view between Zen and Mahayana Buddhism.

 

Aaron