Recently I got to speak with an enlightened master and ask what enlightenment is.

[Thunder_Gooch]

So I asked him what is enlightenment. I am paraphrasing.

 

What is enlightenment?

 

"It's what you were before you were born, and will be after you die."

 

So if I didn't exist then, how could I be enlightened?

 

"You can't be enlightened, it isn't possible to exist and be enlightened."

 

So if enlightenment is truth, and I can't exist and be enlightened, then...

 

"You exist because you are delusional and think you exist when in fact you don't exist."

 

So what exists then?

 

"Nothing exists."

 

What am I seeing right now?

 

"Delusion."

 

So how do I find any truth if everything I can see is delusion?

 

"Your teacup is full, pour it out. You can see empty space can't you?"

 

Yes but what does that have to do with enlightenment?

 

 

"You are empty space, enlightenment is emptiness, I am empty, you are empty, everyone is empty. We are all one thing and it is the emptiness"

 

So what am I seeing in the mirror if I am empty?

 

"There is no one there to look at a mirror, just emptiness."

 

Is this really the truth?

 

"Yes it is really the truth"

[C T]

If one looks into a mirror without presuppositions, then its not delusion.

[konchog uma]

so many definitions of enlightenment... that might not be my truth but maybe it's his. I think we all have our own slice of the absolute's wisdom to share (at least in potentiality), and im glad you got to talk to someone transcendental.

 

If understanding those ideas is important to you, you should read Nisargadatta's I Am That

 

Some traditions believe that you can be liberated while in a human body... in sanskrit the word is Jivanmukta, one who is enlightened or fully awake while still alive. Some other traditions believe that we attain our liberation upon the moment of death when we are absorbed into "the light" or the kundalini of shakti herself, and the divine power unmakes us. Those traditions say that for an instant then we perceive "the truth" (right before we perceive nothing at all). Some traditions (like siddha yoga) say that both those ideas can be true.

 

There are more ideas about enlightenment than we can shake a stick at. Its not what you are while alive that hinders enlightenment if you ask me, its attachment and aversion to that thing. What we really are is THAT, Shiva, Buddha, whateveryouwanttocallit... and our awareness of that can only be complete and unbroken if one has achieved the inner alchemy of self-illumination. So in other words, there is a path of self-acceptance which says to the ego: "you're okay with me. you're so okay, i will expand you until you fill all of creation, and i realize my self nature as that great Self which is the totality of everything, radiant and divine" as opposed to the path of self negation that the master you spoke with seems to offer. That path says to the ego "no i will shut you down, you stand in between my true nature and where i am now"

 

you can see they are really two paths to the same place, to realizing the true nature of self (even if you call that true nature "not self" or no-self) but now i am definitely rambling and will cut this short

[Naziri]

More Pai, you've talked to one who knows what they are talking about.

[Gerard]

So I asked him what is enlightenment. I am paraphrasing.

 

What is enlightenment?

 

"It's what you were before you were born, and will be after you die."

 

Ask him again:

 

Where do the sankharas go in between "lives"? Because if they remain attached to the mind then one cannot be enlightened before being born.

 

"You are empty space, enlightenment is emptiness, I am empty, you are empty, everyone is empty. We are all one thing and it is the emptiness"

 

Empty as in "non-existent", if that's the case ask him the following question:

 

How does dependent origination operate in a God-like manner if it is empty, giving rise to all existent phenomena as well as its extinction in an endless causal flow that causes so much angst (suffering) due to the illusory nature of reality (maya) and ultimately the "false" construction of the ego.

 

Maybe he meant "empty" from the ego's standpoint, then no need to ask.

[Cameron]

" The mind is a cage, but there is no prisoner inside."

 

Jean Klein

[Ish]

Out of interest what leads you to believe his claim of enlightenment?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Out of interest what leads you to believe his claim of enlightenment?

 

Well I believe he has attained non dual awareness which is what he defines as enlightenment.

 

I think that's the intellectual half of the equation.

 

I haven't seen him walk through a wall yet, that's the physical half of the equation.

 

Maybe he is only 50% there I don't really know.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Ask him again:

 

Where do the sankharas go in between "lives"? Because if they remain attached to the mind then one cannot be enlightened before being born.

 

 

 

Empty as in "non-existent", if that's the case ask him the following question:

 

How does dependent origination operate in a God-like manner if it is empty, giving rise to all existent phenomena as well as its extinction in an endless causal flow that causes so much angst (suffering) due to the illusory nature of reality (maya) and ultimately the "false" construction of the ego.

 

Maybe he meant "empty" from the ego's standpoint, then no need to ask.

 

 

My impressions from speaking with him but may not be accurate based on my wrong thinking mental filter, was that there was no first cause as all causes never happened, nothing has ever occurred and all that has occurred is a dream and delusion. There is only the emptiness which is infinite mind, qi, spirit or whatever you want to call it, and it is dreaming that it is you, but there is no you, just the dream of you.

 

 

 

The best impression I got from him which may be my own mind distorting the meaning of his words was that, emptiness is like spirit, consciousness, mind, observer and it is all that exists period. And we are all it.

 

It was more like nothing was the space in between planets the void in between was filled with spirit or qi or consciousness, and it was full to the brim with that. But from our perspective it was the emptiness in a tea cup, the void.

 

What was unreal was physical matter and phenomenon, they were delusion that had no real existence.

 

Physical matter and physical bodies were just illusions that this empty spirit wore like clothes, but inside us all was this spirit which was also the same thing as the void and it animated all life everywhere but was in and of itself one being and not separate beings.

 

Sort of like the wind blowing the sails of a boat or a leaf in the wind.

Edited April 4, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Birch]

Steven Norquist says similar.

He's not happy about it apparently.

I wonder, if one is "that" then one can have exactly the type of enlightenment that one desires?

Or is there "really" only one kind?

Did you ask the enlightened guy what impact it had on "his" life?

[9th]

And now you have all the answers!

[Thunder_Gooch]

I may be misinterpreting what he has told me based on ego.

 

Prior to enlightenment he was a normal person living his life, after enlightenment he ceased to exist, and only a dream character existed. He said verbatim that he had died and no longer existed.

 

The dream itself thought it was a man if I understand him correctly.

 

Also the dream itself occurs in the nothingness, or emptiness.

 

Emptiness has actual existence, it is like qi, or spirit, or mind, and it is all that exists anywhere and everywhere, and anywhen, and everywhen. The emptiness of the universe is actually full of spirit, mind or qi.

 

The only thing that is truly empty is physical matter.

 

 

Before enlightenment I chopped wood and carried water, after enlightenment wood chopped wood and water carried water.

 

I understand what he told me on an intellectual level, but I am still here and an ego still exists so I can't be enlightened but it is fascinating.

 

 

 

 

Steven Norquist says similar.

He's not happy about it apparently.

I wonder, if one is "that" then one can have exactly the type of enlightenment that one desires?

Or is there "really" only one kind?

Did you ask the enlightened guy what impact it had on "his" life?

Edited April 8, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

And now you have all the answers!

 

I am not enlightened but I find what I was told fascinating.

[Birch]

Especially the part about matter.

Sometimes I get that idea that the (going to say the r-word) 'solidified' thought/consideration of oneself is what is dead in such cases. So saying he as a person is dead, well I wonder about that. If that's the case, many of us are dragging around a bit of 'dead' stuff. But that's forgetting you have to be living to perceive such things.

Rather than 'dead', I like the 'gone' or 'passed' idea.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I am not enlightened but I find what I was told fascinating.

 

Just for the record even if what he said was true it is of no use to me, as I don't see how that could stop reincarnation. My goal is to become an immortal spirit, and to survive death.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Especially the part about matter.

Sometimes I get that idea that the (going to say the r-word) 'solidified' thought/consideration of oneself is what is dead in such cases. So saying he as a person is dead, well I wonder about that. If that's the case, many of us are dragging around a bit of 'dead' stuff. But that's forgetting you have to be living to perceive such things.

Rather than 'dead', I like the 'gone' or 'passed' idea.

 

When you sleep at night you may have a dream of being someone else, this does not mean that you are the dream character only that you believe yourself to be while sleeping.

 

"Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi."

 

 

If what he says is true, this is a literal dream, you are attributing who you are to the wrong person or rather thing.

 

The emptiness is the thing dreaming, and observing the dream, according to him.

[Birch]

The emptiness is the thing dreaming, and observing the dream, according to him.

 

That would be a pretty good resume of what I figure other people figure this 'enlightenment' business to be about.

[Fū Yue]

I think the main problem arises when people interpret emptiness as "nothing" when really it's more like "freedom from substance", therefore mistakenly thinking that light is "something" as opposed to being empty of all "things". Which, in turn, creates a grasping for that something, leading to an assumption of a 'thing' grasping for that something', forging the ties of duality. and so the cycle continues.

[gendao]

Yes, everything you've said here makes sense to me...

 

Un-I-dentifying is the beginning of non-duality & enlightenment. There is actually a small, growing community of Westerners who have had this realization lately.

 

I guess for some people there may be a feeling of "oneness" at some point and then "noneness," etc.

 

IMO, this is because "we" are nothing more than multiple frames of (perceptual) reference simultaneously superimposed upon each other:

A "lifetime" movie character, the more "immortal" actor playing that character, a viewer watching both and the whole production with NO frame of reference (observer) at all (classical Buddhist "emptiness").

 

Here, "emptiness" refers to a lack of any absolute IDENTITY (inherent frame of reference), not "physical" SUBSTANCE.

 

Anyhow, I only have such an intellectual grasp of this idea, but not the actual REALIZATION yet. So close or not, still NO CIGAR!

Edited April 8, 2012 by vortex

[Birch]

Well if you know it one way, how is that different from knowing it some other way?

[Thunder_Gooch]

I think the main problem arises when people interpret emptiness as "nothing" when really it's more like "freedom from substance", therefore mistakenly thinking that light is "something" as opposed to being empty of all "things". Which, in turn, creates a grasping for that something, leading to an assumption of a 'thing' grasping for that something', forging the ties of duality. and so the cycle continues.

 

What I got out of my talks with him was that emptiness is actually fullness, and completeness.

 

It is like this. If you take a shovel and dig a hole in the ground. Now you have have two somethings. A big hole, and a big pile of dirt. If you place the dirt back in the hole both hole and the pile of dirt will cease to exist. Yet nothing is lost, and both still actually exist just as real as before.

 

That is what empty space is, you see it as nothing, but really it is something. It is just like the ground before you dug a hole in it in the analogy above.

 

Physical matter is like the hole you dug in the ground, I guess antimatter is like the pile of dirt. Yin and yang.

 

We've been observing it bass ackwards if he's right.

Edited April 8, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

I am still deluded but here is my theory.

 

I know that the universe or multiverse is infinite and contains all that does and could possibly exist, and empty space that it rests in is also apart of it. I know that everything is indeed one thing, and yet I still perceive myself as something that is separate from all that, even though I know the truth is that I am apart of it and it is one thing. So there is a paradox here. How can there be more than one thing if there is only one thing?

 

Non duality means not two.

 

I think the key is that when you become enlightened there are not two things (you+the universe) There is only one thing (the universe). The only way that paradox could resolve itself would be if you exit the equation.

 

According to the guy I spoke with when he solved the equation, he realized that the only thing with true and tangible existence is the emptiness, it is the source of our consciousness, and it is dreaming that it is you. When you awaken you become that emptiness, the space in between planets, the void.

 

In short according to him, nothing exists, but it does actually exist, and everything else is empty and nonexistent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, everything you've said here makes sense to me...

 

Un-I-dentifying is the beginning of non-duality & enlightenment. There is actually a small, growing community of Westerners who have had this realization lately.

 

I guess for some people there may be a feeling of "oneness" at some point and then "noneness," etc.

 

IMO, this is because "we" are nothing more than multiple frames of (perceptual) reference simultaneously superimposed upon each other:

A "lifetime" movie character, the more "immortal" actor playing that character, a viewer watching both and the whole production with NO frame of reference (observer) at all (classical Buddhist "emptiness").

 

Here, "emptiness" refers to a lack of any absolute IDENTITY (inherent frame of reference), not "physical" SUBSTANCE.

 

Anyhow, I only have such an intellectual grasp of this idea, but not the actual REALIZATION yet. So close or not, still NO CIGAR!

Edited April 9, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Fū Yue]

What I got out of my talks with him was that emptiness is actually fullness, and completeness.

 

It is like this. If you take a shovel and dig a hole in the ground. Now you have have two somethings. A big hole, and a big pile of dirt. If you place the dirt back in the hole both hole and the pile of dirt will cease to exist. Yet nothing is lost, and both still actually exist just as real as before.

 

That is what empty space is, you see it as nothing, but really it is something. It is just like the ground before you dug a hole in it in the analogy above.

 

Physical matter is like the hole you dug in the ground, I guess antimatter is like the pile of dirt. Yin and yang.

 

We've been observing it bass ackwards if he's right.

 

That's like what I was getting at, but in a different sense. The true form of the mind is absolute freedom. Essentially, our own past lives are as infinite as our future lives... because we can't let go of living, and by extension, dying. It is our bondage that is imaginary, and we are addicted to it.

 

When I had my enlightenment experience, I realized that the senses are actually enjoying everything that is happening right now to the fullest extent. They don't care about our suffering, they actually enjoy it. They enjoy the death and the destruction as much as the bliss and youthfulness. They eat it, and when it is over they crave more, because they simultaneously love and hate us for putting them through this hurricane of sensation. Our current reality is like an intervention by our parents, trying to get us to give up the drugs.

 

When the senses all swallowed each other into the one taste of amrita, the whole universe became the fractal helices of my own DNA, and the mind revealed itself. Not what I was expecting...

 

It refuses to be objectified, you can't hold it. It is it's own womb, tomb, and birthing room. The whole world is a leaf on a tree in it's own imagination. It has already let go, and we are the only ones confused. There is no matter.

 

Nothing dies, nothing lives, there is just this single moment which is our mind. It can become anything but don't be fooled, it's still the clear light of freedom. The immortals eventually die, because the mind is an impossible force. The gods and the goddesses face decay and death, because the mind is an impossible power. The only possible refuge, where the waves do not reach, is the clear light of our own minds.

 

Ultimately though, we must give up ownership of even that in order to be truly free, in my experience.

[JustARandomPanda]

This thread has to be one of the most awesome I've ever read at Taobums and comes *very* close to what I've increasingly come to believe not just Buddhism - but almost Every genuine spiritual tradition points to in some way or another.

 

For example...After reading The Sufi Science of Self-Realization and hearing Muhammad Hisham Kabbani's explanations I realized he was describing No-Self as well as Emptiness! Except since he is Sufi everything is explained from a Koranic point of view. Allah = the Tao for example. And Allah is Ever-Merciful, Ever-Loving, Ever-Benevolent, Ever-Forgiving, etc. But he said we all must relinquish our prideful Egos and submit to Allah (Allah = Tao).

 

I swear...change a few words here and there and it was basically the same kinds of truths I'd heard Buddhists point to, Hermeticists point to, Vedantists point to, Tao te Ching point to (wu wei for example)...you name it. The same theme keeps getting repeated over and over and over by all these different traditions.

 

Early Christian Gnostics used to say (if I understand this correctly) the Creator of this world was an Ignorant Demi-urge. That is...our Ignorance of the way things 'really are' is what made us all Fall and we are all in an evolutionary process trying to wake up from Ignorance. This has some similarities to what Buddhism teaches!

 

The theme in the esoteric branches I've studied so far say it's ignorance that keeps not Realizing the Tao and 'experiencing' that we're all separate beings. When in truth there is no separation - we are all One. But they all say that until you ACTUALLY Realize it yourself you won't 'get' it. The real Truth is unnamable, unspeakable and unconceptualizable.

 

And I guess maybe they're right because it sure as hell feels like there IS a me here...there are all of YOU sitting out there...and I sure do feel like I was born and if I step in front of an oncoming car I'll sure as heck die. Sure doesn't seem like any delusion to me! But it's the hallmark of delusion and ignorance to have absolutely no way to know or understand whether it's deluded or ignorant. You can't solve a problem on the same level of that problem. Hence the need for daily meditation or other methods of 'letting go' (or following the way of the Tao or Allah) to discover it.

 

But when I go back to my library and read the huge stack of books in each religion's esoteric (not exoteric) branch they all point to the same things More Pie Guy and Fu Yue say! And have for hundreds of years and they all insist that if you simply do the meditation and alchemy exercises you will realize it too. No one needs to take anything all these esoteric spiritual traditions teach on faith alone (and they don't seem to want you to stop at the 'faith' stage'). You're supposed to verify all of this for yourself.

[Thunder_Gooch]

http://www.jainworld.com/literature/story25.htm

 

 

ELEPHANT AND THE BLIND MEN

 

Once upon a time, there lived six blind men in a village. One day the villagers told them, "Hey, there is an elephant in the village today."

 

They had no idea what an elephant is. They decided, "Even though we would not be able to see it, let us go and feel it anyway." All of them went where the elephant was. Everyone of them touched the elephant.

 

 

 

 

"Hey, the elephant is a pillar," said the first man who touched his leg.

 

"Oh, no! it is like a rope," said the second man who touched the tail.

 

"Oh, no! it is like a thick branch of a tree," said the third man who touched the trunk of the elephant.

 

"It is like a big hand fan" said the fourth man who touched the ear of the elephant.

 

"It is like a huge wall," said the fifth man who touched the belly of the elephant.

 

"It is like a solid pipe," Said the sixth man who touched the tusk of the elephant.

 

They began to argue about the elephant and everyone of them insisted that he was right. It looked like they were getting agitated. A wise man was passing by and he saw this. He stopped and asked them, "What is the matter?" They said, "We cannot agree to what the elephant is like." Each one of them told what he thought the elephant was like. The wise man calmly explained to them, "All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all those features what you all said."

 

"Oh!" everyone said. There was no more fight. They felt happy that they were all right.

 

 

This thread has to be one of the most awesome I've ever read at Taobums and comes *very* close to what I've increasingly come to believe not just Buddhism - but almost Every genuine spiritual tradition points to in some way or another.

 

For example...After reading The Sufi Science of Self-Realization and hearing Muhammad Hisham Kabbani's explanations I realized he was describing No-Self as well as Emptiness! Except since he is Sufi everything is explained from a Koranic point of view. Allah = the Tao for example. And Allah is Ever-Merciful, Ever-Loving, Ever-Benevolent, Ever-Forgiving, etc. But he said we all must relinquish our prideful Egos and submit to Allah (Allah = Tao).

 

I swear...change a few words here and there and it was basically the same kinds of truths I'd heard Buddhists point to, Hermeticists point to, Vedantists point to, Tao te Ching point to (wu wei for example)...you name it. The same theme keeps getting repeated over and over and over by all these different traditions.

 

Early Christian Gnostics used to say (if I understand this correctly) the Creator of this world was an Ignorant Demi-urge. That is...our Ignorance of the way things 'really are' is what made us all Fall and we are all in an evolutionary process trying to wake up from Ignorance. This has some similarities to what Buddhism teaches!

 

The theme in the esoteric branches I've studied so far say it's ignorance that keeps not Realizing the Tao and 'experiencing' that we're all separate beings. When in truth there is no separation - we are all One. But they all say that until you ACTUALLY Realize it yourself you won't 'get' it. The real Truth is unnamable, unspeakable and unconceptualizable.

 

And I guess maybe they're right because it sure as hell feels like there IS a me here...there are all of YOU sitting out there...and I sure do feel like I was born and if I step in front of an oncoming car I'll sure as heck die. Sure doesn't seem like any delusion to me! But it's the hallmark of delusion and ignorance to have absolutely no way to know or understand whether it's deluded or ignorant. You can't solve a problem on the same level of that problem. Hence the need for daily meditation or other methods of 'letting go' (or following the way of the Tao or Allah) to discover it.

 

But when I go back to my library and read the huge stack of books in each religion's esoteric (not exoteric) branch they all point to the same things More Pie Guy and Fu Yue say! And have for hundreds of years and they all insist that if you simply do the meditation and alchemy exercises you will realize it too. No one needs to take anything all these esoteric spiritual traditions teach on faith alone (and they don't seem to want you to stop at the 'faith' stage'). You're supposed to verify all of this for yourself.