Recently I got to speak with an enlightened master and ask what enlightenment is.

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

42

 

The Tao gives birth to One.

 

One gives birth to Two.

 

Two gives birth to Three.

 

Three gives birth to all things.

 

 

 

All things have their backs to the female

 

and stand facing the male.

 

When male and female combine,

 

all things achieve harmony.

 

 

 

Ordinary men hate solitude.

 

But the Master makes use of it,

 

embracing his aloneness, realizing

 

he is one with the whole universe.

Edited April 9, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Owledge]

Who called the guy an enlightened master? How can he be enlightened based on his own definition if he's still there, talking to people, answering questions, giving his opinion. And even saying what is "really the truth". This seems to me like a clever (or foolish) conundrum. Maybe the idea was to make the person who asks realize the contradiction and thus stimulate their own search for truth and enlightenment.

 

In my opinion, enlightenment can only seen as a process, not a yes/no question. And nobody who can use words can reach full enlightenment, because no-one knows whether they have seen the ultimate extent of it when their mind is talking about it.

 

Also, always focusing on the end result devalues the process. Trying to 'reach' enlightenment will distance you from it. Enjoying a gradual process of getting more enlightened is enlightenment. You then have attained the process. But if you tell you too often that you have attained the process, you will even lose the process.

 

Funny bit: The stuff that 'enlightened master' is talking about is the same stuff I personally experienced during my second ayahuasca ceremony. So am I on the same level as that guy? I could have given you the same answers. But I would not say this is the absolute truth, for I've heard that ayahuasca can be the most horrible of liars.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Owledge

[Thunder_Gooch]

Who called the guy an enlightened master? How can he be enlightened based on his own definition if he's still there, talking to people, answering questions, giving his opinion. And even saying what is "really the truth". This seems to me like a clever (or foolish) conundrum. Maybe the idea was to make the person who asks realize the contradiction and thus stimulate their own search for truth and enlightenment.

 

In my opinion, enlightenment can only seen as a process, not a yes/no question. And nobody who can use words can reach full enlightenment, because no-one knows whether they have seen the ultimate extent of it when their mind is talking about it.

 

Also, always focusing on the end result devalues the process. Trying to 'reach' enlightenment will distance you from it. Enjoying a gradual process of getting more enlightened is enlightenment. You then have attained the process. But if you tell you too often that you have attained the process, you will even lose the process.

 

 

Absolutely, I don't think he is fully enlightened till he can walk through a wall. Money talks and BS walks.

 

 

 

I only posted this because I found his explanations fascinating.

 

That being said according to the man I spoke with: nobody/no-one exist, but paradoxically they do actually exist. In essence you are nobody/no-one and so is everyone else, there is no-one here to see or do anything and yet paradoxically they are here seeing something and doing something.

 

The paradox is resolved when it is viewed in the context of a dream. In a dream you may believe yourself to be the character in the dream, but really that dream character has no existence, the only thing that has real existence is the dreamer.

 

The dreamer of the "real" world is the infinite mind, qi, or spirit which fills the void in between the planets.

 

And it dreams you as a dream character.

 

In essence you are the emptiness, infinite mind, qi, spirit, whatever, but you're dreaming you are a man.

Edited April 9, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Owledge]

If he could walk through a wall, he would still not be 'fully' enlightened, because he would be delusional according to his own definition of enlightenment. Enlightenment in that view is probably that perfect ideal that can never be reached, since reaching is a function of time, and time doesn't exist in a state of enlightenment.

Maybe that's why people say we are already enlightened. We are separating ourselves from it by believing in time.

 

By the way, "the dreamer" is a pretty good name for what I perceived during my ayahuasca trip. It was like a single consciousness entity lovingly enjoying the creative process of infinite possibilities manifesting - all those tiny lights/facets flashing up everywhere all the time. A Christian metaphor would probably be God loving all his children equally.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Owledge

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[Birch]

Same stuff indeed- well, to the extent of one's learned ability to distance. Then other people may say one ought to live as if no distance, because ain't that the truth. I dunno, I find flipp-flopping between both currently does it. Probably some better way.

[Aaron]

The concept of emptiness is found in many different religions. In Judaism it's found in their view of YHWH and ein sof, in Hinduism it's the realization of emptiness that leads to enlightenment, in Taoism it represents the Tao. It's really a universal concept, so I think your master was speaking what he believed to be true from his own experience. In the end it's the interpretation of emptiness that changes, for instance the Buddhist (and Hindu to a lesser degree) believe emptiness is the true reality, that everything else is transient and illusionary, and most who attain that state seem to agree in that regard. However all the religions I've mentioned believe that is in attaining emptiness that one opens one's self up to the true nature of the world.

 

My own experience in emptiness was enlightening, but also quite disturbing. I felt alone, even when I was at a stadium with my family watching a soccer game. The sensation of what exists, as you stated, everywhere and within everything, is beyond comprehension and explanation, so in my opinion, from my own experience, even though one can attain an awareness of this emptiness, if one is not given an explanation of what it is prior to experiencing it, then it can be overwhelming and desensitize you to the world around you.

 

I distinctly remember feeling as if I was not even at the soccer game, but rather that it was like watching a movie. Instead of being there I was observing what was there, caught, if you will, in a limbo like place.

 

Aaron

Edited April 9, 2012 by Twinner

[Birch]

Yeppers. Does seem to be quite a lot of it around.

[flowing hands]

So I asked him what is enlightenment. I am paraphrasing.

 

What is enlightenment?

 

"It's what you were before you were born, and will be after you die."

 

So if I didn't exist then, how could I be enlightened?

 

"You can't be enlightened, it isn't possible to exist and be enlightened."

 

So if enlightenment is truth, and I can't exist and be enlightened, then...

 

"You exist because you are delusional and think you exist when in fact you don't exist."

 

So what exists then?

 

"Nothing exists."

 

What am I seeing right now?

 

"Delusion."

 

So how do I find any truth if everything I can see is delusion?

 

"Your teacup is full, pour it out. You can see empty space can't you?"

 

Yes but what does that have to do with enlightenment?

 

 

"You are empty space, enlightenment is emptiness, I am empty, you are empty, everyone is empty. We are all one thing and it is the emptiness"

 

So what am I seeing in the mirror if I am empty?

 

"There is no one there to look at a mirror, just emptiness."

 

Is this really the truth?

 

"Yes it is really the truth"

 

I don't think this person is enlightened!!!

 

It is only a very clever and very spiritually evolved person who can become enlightened without the help of someone else who is already enlightened like an Immortal. Only very few people in the history of the world have achieved this state without being led to it.

 

It is not just a mental state, it involves a physical understanding.

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[Owledge]

I don't think this person is enlightened!!!

 

It is only a very clever and very spiritually evolved person who can become enlightened without the help of someone else who is already enlightened like an Immortal. Only very few people in the history of the world have achieved this state without being led to it.

There are so many vague terms in that statement. What is clever? What is spiritual? There are stories of 'ordinary' people doing their simple thing and achieving enlightenment through that.

Another point: How can you distinguish a life where someone is 'being led' to enlightenment from one where someone is not, when everything more or less influences everything else? If you acknowledge life as a teacher, then there is nothing we do 'by ourselves'. Consider this as one insight on the path of enlightenment.

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[Owledge]

Thank you! That was hilarious.

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[Owledge]

Edited April 12, 2012 by Owledge

[flowing hands]

Hi flowinghands.. can you say more about the physical understanding, please?

Well look in my masters version of the DDJ, it is all written in there a complete, and I mean a complete treatise for enlightenment!!!

[Owledge]

Well look in my masters version of the DDJ, it is all written in there a complete, and I mean a complete treatise for enlightenment!!!

Inability to sum up something allegedly understood, instead referring to a book the other person very likely doesn't have. Hmmmmm...

[flowing hands]

There are so many vague terms in that statement. What is clever? What is spiritual? There are stories of 'ordinary' people doing their simple thing and achieving enlightenment through that.

Another point: How can you distinguish a life where someone is 'being led' to enlightenment from one where someone is not, when everything more or less influences everything else? If you acknowledge life as a teacher, then there is nothing we do 'by ourselves'. Consider this as one insight on the path of enlightenment.

Yes, when I mean clever I don't mean like one has a degree, I mean that one has studied nature and the nature of spirituality, which actually means 'unlearning'.

 

Yes life is a teacher in lots of ways but we perceive many things very differently even if we have the same experience. But enlightenment is the same experience for everyone, because whoever goes down this path must achieve certain levels and understandings that are almost beyond words. The teacher does not use words, but teaches you how to achieve the state and true realization if you are the right person and ready to go there. Immortality is the next stage. Everything is written in the DDJ that I have transmitted, it is all there.

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[flowing hands]

Yes, thankyou flowinghands. I was rather interested in what you might have said, is all.

Well I'm not about to reveal the secrets of enlightenment on a Taoist forum!!!!!

[flowing hands]

Inability to sum up something allegedly understood, instead referring to a book the other person very likely doesn't have. Hmmmmm...

It is available for free from my web site..... read it, Lao Tzu says it far better than I can!!!!!

[三江源]

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Edited March 24, 2015 by 三江源

[goldisheavy]

So I asked him what is enlightenment. I am paraphrasing.

 

What is enlightenment?

 

"It's what you were before you were born, and will be after you die."

 

So if I didn't exist then, how could I be enlightened?

 

"You can't be enlightened, it isn't possible to exist and be enlightened."

 

So if enlightenment is truth, and I can't exist and be enlightened, then...

 

"You exist because you are delusional and think you exist when in fact you don't exist."

 

So what exists then?

 

"Nothing exists."

 

What am I seeing right now?

 

"Delusion."

 

So how do I find any truth if everything I can see is delusion?

 

"Your teacup is full, pour it out. You can see empty space can't you?"

 

Yes but what does that have to do with enlightenment?

 

 

"You are empty space, enlightenment is emptiness, I am empty, you are empty, everyone is empty. We are all one thing and it is the emptiness"

 

So what am I seeing in the mirror if I am empty?

 

"There is no one there to look at a mirror, just emptiness."

 

Is this really the truth?

 

"Yes it is really the truth"

 

This "teacher" is exceptionally stupid. He's not enlightened at all. Be very careful with this guy. He'll intensify your delusion rather than clear it up for you. Replacing "something" delusion with "nothing" delusion is a fool's game. He's not showing you how to investigate matters. Instead he's putting his foolish thoughts into your mind (because you allow it).

[FieryWind]

The reality is that this "dream" or "delusion" exists in the relative sense, to disregard this fact would be delusional!

 

From the point of view of the Absolute, relative existence may seem to be be unreal (this is simply my opinion), but the fact that you experience this so called dream, means that it exists, dependent upon other factors of course, it has no inherent existence because of its dependent nature, but it still exists in a temporal ever changing sort of way due to the fulfillment of Karma.

 

It came from emptiness, sustained briefly then dissolved back into emptiness, therefore its true nature is empty yet it's relative nature was dependent upon other factors for its existence, it's empty nature was never born, will never be sustained and it will never die, yet its relative nature had a birth a sustenance and a death, it was fleeting, temporal, mirage-like, limited.

 

Remember the middle way of approach, the Tao, neither leaning to either extremes yet perceiving both.

 

Believing that someone has achieved Enlightenment is not enough, we have to work to achieve that state, meditate, transmute and remove your own obscurations.