Birch Posted February 11, 2013 straight or gay, its still the individual's problem in the end... ( no pun intended...hahahaha) Sure, suggesting we not contribute even more to people's suffering is the idea here. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 11, 2013 I am amazed that turtle shell wrote this... Why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanzon Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) Sorry folks, I accidentally deleted this post while trying to quote it! Edited February 12, 2013 by Sanzon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted February 12, 2013 Everyone is "good people" my friend thankyou for the reminder. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 12, 2013 Probably because it is a gross generalization. Sure you had direct experience of it. Doesn't mean the statement you made is all conclusive though. Yeah personal experience isn't necessarily conclusive. But statistics from the CDC are...so I really don't see the point! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanzon Posted February 12, 2013 It's findings from the bottom of the barrel, not relating to the barrel itself, nor the rest of its contents. What did you think of my analogy in regards to my point? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 12, 2013 I think it's full of baggage?Sorry...had a long day, and not in the mood for other people's stuff, or anyone's inability to reason.I think there's nothing wrong with pointing out that gay men tend to have an STD issue. Anything you think I'm getting at beyond that is your own projection. Really, it is. No one should be shocked by someone stating a truth, or their personal experience with it. Really, they should not. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanzon Posted February 12, 2013 How does your statement affect all the gay men who are in monogamous long term loving relationships fighting desperately for marriage equality? What about gay Christians who practice celibacy? What about the many other sub categories of gay men who do not fit within your generalized statement?And also, I would love to hear your response to this part. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanzon Posted February 12, 2013 I think it's full of baggage? Sorry...had a long day, and not in the mood for other people's stuff, or anyone's inability to reason. I think there's nothing wrong with pointing out that gay men tend to have an STD issue. Anything you think I'm getting at beyond that is your own projection. Really, it is. No one should be shocked by someone stating a truth, or their personal experience with it. Really, they should not. No worries, I wont hound you. My issue is with your term disease ridden, or something to that effect, rather than stating it simply in terms of prevalence as you have above. Rest well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 12, 2013 Yes I said they tend to be STD-ridden.They are.Not to say that if someone is gay, they are. They might not be. Like a gay man in this topic said, those in the gay community are a different thing than simply being gay.As for my response to the other part, I have no idea why you're questioning me like that. I'm kind of offended by you bringing up Christianity and celibacy. What does any of this have to do with anything? I'm not anti-gay-people. I'm pro-people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanzon Posted February 12, 2013 Let me help you dig yourself out of a hole here. eg Findings have shown that there is a higher prevalence of STDs amongst gay men. This may reflect levels of promiscuity amongst gay men, and the results would obviously not reflect gay males in non promiscuous lifestyles, eg monogamous & celibate gay men, for example. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 12, 2013 Yup, that's what I said. I did not dig myself into a hole...you (and others I suppose) simply thought you saw me in one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
林愛偉 Posted February 12, 2013 Sure, suggesting we not contribute even more to people's suffering is the idea here. Yup! People will be the way the are, and choose. Its a shame many feel the need to impose their own ideas of how things should be. It would be better to look at how things are now, and work with them, not in favor of either one, but in empowering people to simply be accepting, understanding, and non-imposing of personal beliefs. If someone cares to know, they will ask. If not, ...who cares... lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted February 12, 2013 Yup! People will be the way the are, and choose. Its a shame many feel the need to impose their own ideas of how things should be. It would be better to look at how things are now, and work with them, not in favor of either one, but in empowering people to simply be accepting, understanding, and non-imposing of personal beliefs. If someone cares to know, they will ask. If not, ...who cares... lol Haha, I keep trying to impose the non-imposition of personal beliefs. See how much that works? Haha. However, it's likely I'll continue on with this standing up saying things stuff for a while. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanzon Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) Yup, that's what I said. I did not dig myself into a hole...you (and others I suppose) simply thought you saw me in one. IMO, this is a hole: "Yes I said they tend to be STD-ridden. They are." Its all in the delivery. Edited February 12, 2013 by Sanzon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted February 12, 2013 I could give a fuck about what you think of my delivery. Done here! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted February 12, 2013 IMO, this is a hole: "Yes I said they tend to be STD-ridden. They are." Its all in the delivery. It doesn't matter about the delivery as you put it. Facts are facts. What matters is the response - judgemental or no. That is: response 1 : condemn all gay people for their promiscuity and life style response 2: promote safe sex practices through concern for people's well being. Value judgements obscure the possibility of reasoned response. Just as say in areas of the third world, Africa for instance, AIDS is endemic because of heterosexual practices ... you can either condemn this and make judgements about the people involved and their life style or you can think of intelligent effective solutions ... i.e. sex education, more empowerment of women, legalize and regulate prostitution - for instance. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sanzon Posted February 12, 2013 It doesn't matter about the delivery as you put it. Facts are facts. What matters is the response - judgemental or no. That is: response 1 : condemn all gay people for their promiscuity and life style response 2: promote safe sex practices through concern for people's well being. Value judgements obscure the possibility of reasoned response. Just as say in areas of the third world, Africa for instance, AIDS is endemic because of heterosexual practices ... you can either condemn this and make judgements about the people involved and their life style or you can think of intelligent effective solutions ... i.e. sex education, more empowerment of women, legalize and regulate prostitution - for instance. All good points Apech. Thank you. I guess that is where I am coming from as well. If you notice, here & in the other threads on the topic, I have attempted to validate the positions of both WWROA & turtle shell, while attempting to encourage each to decrease the emotive intensity behind their delivery of "facts", and thus make their points clearer, and more receivable/palatable to people who are taking offence at them. I, for one, will defend LGBTI peoples and persuasions for all I am worth, because I believe that we are not separate as human beings. Though please note I am not attempting to change the minds of those that do not support my views, what I perceive myself as doing is challenging them to rephrase what they mean so that an equanimous discussion may take place here. I do like human diversity, and I do think my intent is based on the inclusion of the other side of the argument, given that it not be derogatory to others. Therefore, I do believe that the delivery of the message is important, for the sake of inclusion. May I further add to your list of responses. Response 1) condemn all gay men for their promiscuity & lifestyle. Response 1a) condemn only promiscuous gay men, and not gay men who do not fit into promiscuous or high risk categories, ie safe sex practicing, monogamous, celibate, and any other non high risk sub categories of gay men. Response 1b) not condemn, but acknowledge the fact that there are gay men in our communities that are at high risk through promiscuity and lifestyle choices, & out of concern for their health & wellbeing => go to response 2. 1c) Acknowledge people identifying as LGBTI, and the issues & struggles specific to their plight as a minority group within our society. Validate their rights through law, through cultural awareness, tolerance and acceptance, through personal acceptance, validation and approval, through the determination to defend their rights across the globe. Those who identify as LGBTI that still seek to live promiscuous high risk lifestyles => response 2) Response 2) promote safe sex practices through concern for people's wellbeing. I am a bit weary, so apologies if I haven't been thorough in my response here. Cheers. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
