Chi Kung & Emotional Lyposuction lecture by Nei Kung Master Gary J. Clyman

[Wells]

I bowed out because this whole argument is going nowhere.

 

My last thought. Good luck on your journey and I wish you the best.

Thank you, good luck on your jouney too!

[dwai]

Dude, you are a surely nice guy who wants to help and I wish you the best for your training progress!

 

I can only talk from my personal POW. When I trained with Gary's Nei Kung only for a short time, I woke up at night and felt one vibration jump between the bones of my left and of my right leg jumping back and forth and felt the microcosmic orbit or a vibration in my backbone jump up and down and actually felt it bumping against the crown point of my head. The vibration was quite hard, sharp and quick. I stood up and it all was still there. I heard a loud hum in my head also. It was around 2 at night, I stood up and emailed Gary because I was a little concerned. Gary wrote back IN 30 SECONDS (!!!) and told me that that's all normal, he had that too and I shouldn't be concerned and simply go on training!

Gary is a great guy, his system works, you have good progress from the beginning and therefore I'm absolutely enthusiastic about his system and his personality! Also, you get all at once and don't need to wait years to learn condensing breathing or so! This are MY PERSONAL GREAT EXPERIENCES with Gary and no matter what other people talk bad about him, I KNOW better! Just for the record!

Regularly, I feel and hear the vibration (I could go so far now that my vibration "is talking to me" ) and my dantian is hopping around during practice that it shakes my whole body.

So much to results with Clyman's great Nei Kung DVD's.

 

Concerning Liao's DVD's especially "How to restore your Life Energy" and it's so called important basic Tao Gong exercises: I tried them for weeks and felt nothing at all! Maybe a little trembling in dantian and the typical disturbed blood flow caused tingling in the arms during the charge up form for example. No vibration at all!

 

Excuse me, but these are my personal experiences and nobody can discuss that away!

 

If Tao Gong works for you then I wish you the best and further progress, but it didn't work for me!

 

 

I got that! But I have also many other DVD's from Liao and I trained already quite some time tai chi ball exercises from his "tai chi and martial arts seminar" DVD set (and felt nothing with that too!)! So at least SOMETHING could have happened IMO.

 

Interesting....i taught my sister, a complete neophyte the preparation and upward/downward form and she could feel her qi right after 10 mins of doing the practice

 

As far as tai chi ball goes...it takes time and patience. Also do you get oppotunities to push hands with anyone else? That is very important too...

 

Good luck to you on your practice tooo DB...i dont know much about gary so i cant comment on his stuff beyond what i can sense superficially...

[Wells]

Interesting....i taught my sister, a complete neophyte the preparation and upward/downward form and she could feel her qi right after 10 mins of doing the practice

I don't know what she felt but when I do tai chi forms with lifting the hands up like "upward/downward" or "charge up form" I get a prickling into hands forearms. Is it chi? Is it only disturbed bloodflow? I am very careful with things like that so I rather believe the second explanation. Every physician would tell you so at least.

But no physician could explain away the phenomenons that happened to me through Gary's training. They were much more extreme.

 

As far as tai chi ball goes...it takes time and patience. Also do you get oppotunities to push hands with anyone else? That is very important too...

Thank you for the hint, I won't get my best friend or my mother to train with me BEFORE I can already demonstrate at least a little bit fajin! They can't imagine that suff without proof. All other persons I know believe I'm crazy anyway because I'm interested in Nei Kung and Tai chi.

Concerning Tai chi ball: Yes, I feel a prickling too in my palms when doing taichi ball exercises, my hands feel repulsed when I hold them before my stomach...but it's all extremely subtle and could all be only self-suggestion.

 

Good luck to you on your practice tooo DB...i dont know much about gary so i cant comment on his stuff beyond what i can sense superficially...

Thank you very much and thank you for the impartiality.

[dwai]

I don't know what she felt but when I do tai chi forms with lifting the hands up like "upward/downward" or "charge up form" I get a prickling into hands forearms. Is it chi? Is it only disturbed bloodflow? I am very careful with things like that so I rather believe the second explanation. Every physician would tell you so at least.

But no physician could explain away the phenomenons that happened to me through Gary's training. They were much more extreme.

 

 

Thank you for the hint, I won't get my best friend or my mother to train with me BEFORE I can already demonstrate at least a little bit fajin! They can't imagine that suff without proof. All other persons I know believe I'm crazy anyway because I'm interested in Nei Kung and Tai chi.

Concerning Tai chi ball: Yes, I feel a prickling too in my palms when doing taichi ball exercises, my hands feel repulsed when I hold them before my stomach...but it's all extremely subtle and could all be only self-suggestion.

 

 

Thank you very much and thank you for the impartiality.

The thing with jin is that, you,need another to feel it,develop it.you can feel your own qi not jin. You can feel anothers jin, not qi.

 

So try your level out,with another practitioner....learn some push hands...see how you feel abt things then.

 

Does gary's nei kung get you there? Can you make another feel the jin? That will be the true test, imho.

 

As far as taichi ball goes...if you keep at it you can not only generate a very strong one, you can use it in applications.

 

 

My friends and I use it for all aspects of practice...balance, power, feeling....

 

I would recommend you dont close the door on the source of this material, ie master liao...

 

He is the real deal...

 

All the best.

Edited April 8, 2012 by dwai

[Wells]

The thing with jin is that, you,need another to feel it,develop it.you can feel your own qi not jin. You can feel anothers jin, not qi.

 

So try your level out,with another practitioner....learn some push hands...see how you feel abt things then.

 

Does gary's nei kung get you there? Can you make another feel the jin? That will be the true test, imho.

True! According to two threads I found in different forums, Gary's older students all can "discharge" Jing and have Golden Bell. Not bad, eh? So I hope I will get it too with his stuff. I will watch the development of my vibration and on some level will begin to test on my friends if they can feel it too.

 

As far as taichi ball goes...if you keep at it you can not only generate a very strong one, you can use it in applications.

 

 

My friends and I use it for all aspects of practice...balance, power, feeling....

 

I would recommend you dont close the door on the source of this material, ie master liao...

 

He is the real deal...

 

All the best.

I never doubted Liao's power. How strong his power compared to Gary is, I have no idea.

 

All right, did you already develop Jing? Or one of your fellow Tao Gong students? If so, how long did you/they train Tao Gong to achieve that?

 

This is the only method to evaluate the worth of the Tao Gong you learn in your school compared to Gary's Nei Kung, which, if the stories about Gary's long time students are true, in fact develops Jing.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Dorian Black

[dwai]

True! According to two threads I found in different forums, Gary's older students all can "discharge" Jing and have Golden Bell. Not bad, eh? So I hope I will get it too with his stuff. I will watch the development of my vibration and on some level will begin to test on my friends if they can feel it too.

 

 

I never doubted Liao's power. How strong his power compared to Gary is, I have no idea.

 

All right, did you already develop Jing? Or one of your fellow Tao Gong students? If so, how long did you/they train Tao Gong to achieve that?

 

This is the only method to evaluate the worth of the Tao Gong you learn in your school compared to Gary's Nei Kung, which, if the stories about Gary's long time students are true, in fact develops Jing.

Are we llearning power transfer? Sure. Its par for the course...

Are we doing condesning breathing every day? At least i am not...do i do it? Sure i do from time to time. Mostly it happens naturally...during form practice.

 

Is my teacher teaching meditations to develop long power, short power? Sure. Do i get it? Not emtirely...does it do something for me...sure.

 

there are many layers of tai chi that are becoming clear to me after close to a decade of practice. Things that i hadnt even thought of 1 year ago...I do know that there is no "bachelors degree, no masters degree" it is a lifelong learning process...

 

I have peeled through enough layers of myself to know that there is no simple formula to life's challenges...it is a constant practice...bslancing the opposites...taiji

[Wells]

Are we llearning power transfer? Sure. Its par for the course...

Are we doing condesning breathing every day? At least i am not...do i do it? Sure i do from time to time. Mostly it happens naturally...during form practice.

 

Is my teacher teaching meditations to develop long power, short power? Sure. Do i get it? Not emtirely...does it do something for me...sure.

 

there are many layers of tai chi that are becoming clear to me after close to a decade of practice. Things that i hadnt even thought of 1 year ago...I do know that there is no "bachelors degree, no masters degree" it is a lifelong learning process...

 

I have peeled through enough layers of myself to know that there is no simple formula to life's challenges...it is a constant practice...bslancing the opposites...taiji

So you are training Temple Style Taichi already almost a decade with your teacher in his school? According to what I learned from Liao's videos, you learned from the very beginning Taichi exercises to make your taichi energy ball "substantial", what means that another person can feel it. That's pre-required for transferring power (jing). Liao says in one DVD semiar I have (Tai chi and martial arts) for example that a student from Chicago (Larry) asks everyday his friends, co-workers and so on if they can already feel his taichi ball...but at the time of the seminar, that guy hadn't reached that point yet and Larry didn't understand that because he feels his energy so strong. Liao said further: "What does that mean? Not strong enough yet!" As far as I understand what you say is that you shouldn't do Tao Gong or can't really progress in Tao Gong with IF you haven't made your Taichi ball substantial yet through Taichi exercises.

Your answer wasn't as straight-forward as I hoped for (or I am missing something), sure you learn all this stuff as part of your course and the self-development and journey toward your TE is more important for you, but:

Can you or one of the students who learned with you for almost ten years or maybe students you know who learn already for a longer time the Taichi + Tao Gong way (without Nei Kung), can you transfer the high-frequenzy vibration that Liao calls Jing in his Taichi classics and ko a person with it as martial arts application? If not, have you or one of these other students already made his Taich ball "substantial", so if I or another person would touch it bewtween your hands could without a doubt FEEL it?

That's my big question and a clear answer would be most appreciated.

[Wells]

Also, I am sick and tired of actual Temple Style Taichi school members, who follow the new Taichi + Tao Gong way (instead of the old school Taichi + Nei kung way, that was taught in the 70's), who come here and bad-mouth about my teacher Gary Clyman and his system (in fact the Nei Kung part of Temple Style Taichi) and try to depreciate Gary's personality and the worth of his system. I don't mean dwai with that but I mean especially h.uriahr. I had several coincidences with you already and you always CLAIM how great the way of teaching is today and bad Gary's is.

 

You always argue only with your personal belief that is derived from the declarations of your teachers. You always CLAIM, you never back it up with declarations about your own progress or that of your classmates!

You NEVER answer straight about your own progress or Jing application abilities BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE ANY!

I asked you often enough now!

 

You only have your brain-wash belief that gives you the adamant conviction that you will reach the highest goals of taichi even if you after years of practice aren't even able to make other people feel your taichi ball yet. So why do you bother about Tao Gong then?

You are on one level with every christian who adamantly believes that he will go to heaven and shake hands with Jesus after his death!

 

I NEVER found anything about a Taichi + Tao Gong student having the Jing and the ability to apply it in combat.

But I found several statements about Gary's Nei Kung students having achieved that!

 

So back up your claims or shut up forever!!!!!!!!!

[Wells]

Here it is: some confirmation I found in forums in the net for Gary Clymans abilities, the abilities of his students and therefore the progress that is possible if you train with his version of the Temple Style Taichi Nei Kung part!

http://wongkiewkit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8776

 

23rd September 2009, 08:25 PM

KungPow

Registered User

 

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Roseville,CA

Posts: 2

Misinformed

 

There seems to be some confusion over Gary's statement and that's understandable. Gary isnt saying that the Chinese character for "chi" is what's in the characters of tai chi. He's saying that the actual manifestation of chi, the way he describes it, is what is involved in tai chi, or supposed to be anyway.

 

Gary will happily demonstrate on anyone who wants to doubt his training. His training isnt something to be overlooked or mocked. Hands down his system is the best system I've ever seen or trained in. Keep in mind that his teacher is Waysun Liao who is top notch.

I cant really speak for him. I have an opinion though, if it matters lol.

 

It's my understanding that when people actually project what they call "chi" that it's a more refined chi substance, jing. You can feel your own chi flow as I can feel my own chi flow but the vibration of my/your chi is on too high a level for me/you to project to me/you, unless it's been condensed through some sort of qigong, meditation, etc. That's Gary's say on it, I may have misquoted him or just completely fabricated that from poor memory but if I recall correctly that's how he sees it.

 

Personally I agree completely with Clyman. I also think that most qigong masters say what he says but maybe in a different way. Another way to view it (poor example warning) is like a big river or lake or whatever. The water source is great and all but if you build a dam then you can really use the source. Very poor example choice.

 

 

5th August 2011, 03:04 PM

Neikung36

Banned

 

Join Date: Aug 2011

Location: France

Posts: 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwolf

I guess when I see statements like that, it makes me question whether individuals like this truly know what they are talking about. These types of people then go on writing books on subjects as fascinating as Qigong and really don't understand what it is, teaching nonsense to students to make a quick buck.

 

I was able to get through about a third of the article as I do find it interesting reading. On a similar note, there was also a thread on this forum with Sifu Doucherty talking about Qi as if it was irrelevant.

 

Just makes me a bit sad to see people make comments of this sort as it truly discredits their expertise.

Of course he knows what hes talking about.His master was waysun liao, you can go and see him, punch him and kick him in the torso to test his iron shirt and ask him to discharge his jing into you.Have fun with your insides bouncing around and collapsing to the floor once he does it.He also has an interesting story to tell you about sifu wong kiew kit if you ask him.Im not going to say anything or go into details, but lets just say Mr clyman is not impressed with his level of expertise.

5th August 2011, 05:59 PM

Neikung36

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Join Date: Aug 2011

Location: France

Posts: 5

Ok let me clear some things up , ive read all of wong kiew kits books and i got bad deviations from his practices back in 2002. They lasted for years but i kept on practicing and practicing because i thought that the bad feelings were the chi clearing things out, not only that but i am aware that there are many others suffering deviations also. I did not insult him i stated that clyman did , but in reality he deserves my insults. He doesnt explain things clearly enough in his books and people have suffered.On to Gary now .I went to see Gary Clyman in person, he is everything he says he is and much more.I weigh 84 kilos(not fat) and punched him and his other top guys as hard as i could, ive trained with pro boxers and i can deliver a punch that will knock any man down.I delivered powerfull(liver and spleen) shots and they didnt tense up.When i punched Gary it felt like my wrist bent and could have snapped(he told me he could have snapped it if he wanted to) Not only that but his fa jing demonstrations were very impressive as was his emotional liposuction, he sent me flying with a light slap and i felt my insides bouncing around.Not only that but he said that he hadnt really hit me yet, I refused to test the next level off power.I have his entire system and he is superior to wong kiew kit by a 1000 lifetimes.That is my opinion and if it gets me kicked off then boo hoo hoo.I dont really care! Gary Clyman knows exactly what he is talking about and his stuff works way better than wongs.There are no insults just facts.GET OVER IT

 

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-5002.html

 

Peacedog

8/05/2003 10:59pm,

Yeah, I know Gary. He is a very good martial tai chi guy in Chicago. I've played with him a few times and he always wins very easily. He is big on meditation, but he also has the goods. He was orginally trained in martial tai chi, Temple Style I believe, and also knows shia chiao (I know I can't spell).

 

He is also one of the few practitioners I know who will demonstrate to anyone. He will gladly take anyone's punch to demonstrate the Golden Bell/Iron Shirt stuff. He also has very strong fa jing. Particularly for the non-believers out there if you want proof that this stuff work go to Chicago and ask him to discharge on you. I've never known any non-believer to ask twice.

 

Equally impressive his students can all also do the Golden Bell stuff. His good students can also discharge.

 

Hell, he sent me flying into a brick wall with only four fingers and I weighted almost 100kg at the time.

 

Peacedog

8/05/2003 11:19pm,

Very funny. Ask him to punch you using the jing. The sensation is quite amazing and depends on the the typle of jing used. You will go flying.

 

While there are many frauds among the tai chi guys. Gary is one of the few who actually has it.

 

Peacedog

8/05/2003 11:40pm,

Yeah both Gary and his students fight in tournaments occasionally. Sometimes they win and sometimes they don't. They always do well however. Just like the rest of us and any real fighters. He is very honest about the performance of both himself and his students. Hell I even watched him fight in a boxing match match once. He did that for his 50th birthday just for fun. He won.

 

His school is very small maybe half a dozen to a dozen people are there at any time. He is very picky about only promoting people who know what they are doing. I think only one person has every completed the system. Also the promotion to green sash requires the person testing to go out and fight someone from another system who is widely known as very good. If memory served a young gold sash was told he would have to fight Nick Fury to get his green sash. This was not an exaggeration. Gary meant it. The training is fairly demanding from a personal practice standpoint and posers leave. Basically you learn the form and then practice the techniques on your own. So if you are not really interested you quit. The two classes I've seen of his were for corrections to form and to practice two person fighting techniques.

 

He fought Vince Black a number of years ago and lost. Although Vince said Gary did the best of anyone who ever challenged him. Gary gives full respect to the good players out there. He will also tell you if someone is full of ****. Basically he is a standup guy.

 

Peacedog

8/05/2003 11:56pm,

Yes I've seen Gary do this to a variety of people all of whom had fighting experience. He has done it to me (judo, budotaijitsu, shotokan, boxing and alot of military unarmed combat stuff). I watched him do it to a 5th dan Jeet Kun Do guy who was about 215 lbs and a tad over six feet tall, and an experience boxer in the middle of a match, as well as a few other guys.

 

To answer the other person, jing is a chinese medical and meditative term that means something like cultivated essense. In fa jing this cultivated essense, which takes years to get apparently, is disharged out of the fighter into the target. It feels like you are getting hit with a brick.

 

Peacedog

8/06/2003 11:41pm,

Sorry it took so long to get back to you guys but I'm about 10 hours ahead out here.

 

Nick Fury is some local grappling guy in the Chicago area. I've never met him personally but I've seen video of him fighting in tournaments a few times. His techniques look solid.

 

As for the JKD person you would have to talk to Gary himself. I only met him, the JKD person, over a two day seminar and those were his own words. In any event he was a big solid guy who knew how to move.

 

Gary has his opinions on the meditative side of the art, but he can back it up on the street. One of the nice things is that he is willing to demonstrate this on anyone who shows up.

 

I would suggest you call or go visit him in Chicago if you want to see a tai chi guy who has it. He is outspoken, but very friendly. And not in the weird ass cult/I am the master of the universe way that many of the frauds in this form present themselves.

 

Peacedog

8/07/2003 2:46am,

Sam,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the sincerity. Gary is also a very skilled meditator and accupuncturist with about 30 years of experience. I've spent a few days, on a couple of different occaisions, following him around his accupuncture practice and he is very impressive in his treatment of patients. I can't speak to AIDS patients, but based off of his record in treating other people I don't think it is unreasonable that he can help with an immune system dysfunction or health in general.

 

I got interested in the healing modalities after breaking my back in a skydiving accident about 2 1/2 years ago. After one treatment Gary took me from 50% to about 80 to 85% despite having done all the other rehabilitative/drug thearapies offered by conventional medicine. I have also seen him help people with circulatory and respiratory problems dramatically. As well as treating people who were suffering from mental and psychological problems as well with good results using the emotional liposuction techniqes.

In a world of frauds in the meditative/martial arts communities he is one of the few I have seen who had credibility in person. He is very honest about his abilities and will be the first to tell you if he cannot do something. Addtionally all of his stuff is solidly built off of technique and practice. No mythical nonsense. Everything is you do A and you get B. He is also open about the fact that his ability to do any of this is based off of lots of experimentation, good teachers, and years of spending several hours a day working on all of this. People out there can do some of this stuff, but the amount of effort required to do so is extreme and built over time. His techniques and training timelines closely mirror what I have seen among the few other credible practitioners I have met over the years and correspond to my own experiences which came from outside their systems.

 

Thanks for the message,

 

Tom Skarda

 

Edit: My buddy LittlePai, member of thetaobums, tested Gary's Jing personally. Gary only touched his shoulder slightly and LittlePie crushed into the ground "like being hit by a sledge-hammer". Gary said he only used ONE single vibration but he could have used HUNDREDS if he wanted to!

Edited April 8, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/13862-gary-clyman-demonstrates-empty-force/

Master Gary Clyman has been nothing but kind and very helpful to me in every conversation I've ever had with him. He's really ramped up energetically but I think I would say that's he's just extremely passionate about his system, like on fire passionate. I would never ever describe him as being an asshole.

 

Before saying anyone is fake you should either meet them in person first or at the very least try the system with diligence and determination. Fake is another word I would never use to describe him.

 

h.uriahr's opinion about Gary Clyman based on his personal experiences with him in 2010.

[dwai]

So you are training Temple Style Taichi already almost a decade with your teacher in his school? According to what I learned from Liao's videos, you learned from the very beginning Taichi exercises to make your taichi energy ball "substantial", what means that another person can feel it. That's pre-required for transferring power (jing). Liao says in one DVD semiar I have (Tai chi and martial arts) for example that a student from Chicago (Larry) asks everyday his friends, co-workers and so on if they can already feel his taichi ball...but at the time of the seminar, that guy hadn't reached that point yet and Larry didn't understand that because he feels his energy so strong. Liao said further: "What does that mean? Not strong enough yet!" As far as I understand what you say is that you shouldn't do Tao Gong or can't really progress in Tao Gong with IF you haven't made your Taichi ball substantial yet through Taichi exercises.

Your answer wasn't as straight-forward as I hoped for (or I am missing something), sure you learn all this stuff as part of your course and the self-development and journey toward your TE is more important for you, but:

Can you or one of the students who learned with you for almost ten years or maybe students you know who learn already for a longer time the Taichi + Tao Gong way (without Nei Kung), can you transfer the high-frequenzy vibration that Liao calls Jing in his Taichi classics and ko a person with it as martial arts application? If not, have you or one of these other students already made his Taich ball "substantial", so if I or another person would touch it bewtween your hands could without a doubt FEEL it?

That's my big question and a clear answer would be most appreciated.

 

Ko? Not yet...move? Yes. Interstingly enough, if you listen to what master liao says these days, you can avoid conflict by just not being there (ie energeticlly become yin...no self, no enemy)

 

Substantial tai chi ball? Sure...i have been physically moved without being touched physically by my practice partner and vice versa with our backs turned to the other person, not knowing when one is moving the other. Until a year or so ago, we used to do lot of energy work on each other...helping the other move or remove blockages.

 

As part of two person practice we have to do practices like neutralization, listening power, sticking power, etc...making chances to apply peng, li, an, ji etc. Does that answer your question?

 

Now let me ask you what good doing a fa jin will be if you dont learn how to apply it...say in a ward off or a press or a push...etc?

[Wells]

Ko? Not yet...move? Yes. Interstingly enough, if you listen to what master liao says these days, you can avoid conflict by just not being there (ie energeticlly become yin...no self, no enemy)

 

Substantial tai chi ball? Sure...i have been physically moved without being touched physically by my practice partner and vice versa with our backs turned to the other person, not knowing when one is moving the other. Until a year or so ago, we used to do lot of energy work on each other...helping the other move or remove blockages.

 

As part of two person practice we have to do practices like neutralization, listening power, sticking power, etc...making chances to apply peng, li, an, ji etc. Does that answer your question?

OK, I'll trust your honesty and your ability to judge.

Therefore my my opinion that Taichi + Tao Gong doesn't result in good progress was obviously wrong.

Thank you for the answer!

 

Now let me ask you what good doing a fa jin will be if you dont learn how to apply it...say in a ward off or a press or a push...etc?

The reference material I use are the Nei Kung set from Gary and Liao's Taichi Classics. Therefore I expect the Jing that I try to develop through Nei Kung, to show as physical vibrations first, that will become stronger and stronger in amplitude and frequenzy until your body will begin to shake. On some point they should be usable for push hands and other martial applications. At that point, I'll need someone for two person practice to get the vibration under control for that use. My goal is further to refine the Jing then more and more until the frequenzy becomes so fast that the body will no more be able to follow. Then there will be no more visible vibration. After Liao's book, at some point the vibrations begin to collide with each other and that will produce incredible power. A long way to go from that little vibrations that show up in my body now during and after the practice!

I know Liao says that you feel your chi but not your jing. On the other hand the jing shows up as vibration (at least the jing that you develop after his book Taichi classics!) and therefore will be observable for me. Also, in fact I CAN feel the vibrations and they surely are not normal chi anymore!

[dwai]

OK, I'll trust your honesty and your ability to judge.

Therefore my my opinion that Taichi + Tao Gong doesn't result in good progress was obviously wrong.

Thank you for the answer!

 

 

The reference material I use are the Nei Kung set from Gary and Liao's Taichi Classics. Therefore I expect the Jing that I try to develop through Nei Kung, to show as physical vibrations first, that will become stronger and stronger in amplitude and frequenzy until your body will begin to shake. On some point they should be usable for push hands and other martial applications. At that point, I'll need someone for two person practice to get the vibration under control for that use. My goal is further to refine the Jing then more and more until the frequenzy becomes so fast that the body will no more be able to follow. Then there will be no more visible vibration. After Liao's book, at some point the vibrations begin to collide with each other and that will produce incredible power. A long way to go from that little vibrations that show up in my body now during and after the practice!

I know Liao says that you feel your chi but not your jing. On the other hand the jing shows up as vibration (at least the jing that you develop after his book Taichi classics!) and therefore will be observable for me. Also, in fact I CAN feel the vibrations and they surely are not normal chi anymore!

 

 

Ok...all the best

 

Since we did talk about fa jin (jing) here is a video --

 

The big guy is a student of jose perez, who iinm was master liao's student. My teacher has good things to say about jose...

 

Another one --

 

Edited April 8, 2012 by dwai

[Wells]

Ok...all the best

 

Since we did talk about fa jin (jing) here is a video --

 

The big guy is a student of jose perez, who iinm was master liao's student. My teacher has good things to say about jose...

 

Another one --

Hmm...looks like solid push hands, but I doubt that one of these guys has the jing.

 

Someone who has (at least IMO) the jing is Michael Phillips.

He had even more impressive vids on youtube where you could in fact see his arms vibrate, but these are quite interesting as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5AdvqvZm6U&list=UUBPwyPJLvPM5TlX6QK6K84g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDF0CwZnkVA

I found articles where he describes that his jing feels like a hydraulic pulse wave flowing through his body and coming from the belly.

[dwai]

Hmm...looks like solid push hands, but I doubt that one of these guys has the jing.

 

Someone who has (at least IMO) the jing is Michael Phillips.

He had even more impressive vids on youtube where you could in fact see his arms vibrate, but these are quite interesting as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5AdvqvZm6U&list=UUBPwyPJLvPM5TlX6QK6K84g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDF0CwZnkVA

I found articles where he describes that his jing feels like a hydraulic pulse wave flowing through his body and coming from the belly.

Michael phillips is good. I posted those vids because they are of temple style students...the bigger guy has around 13 yrs training...the skinny guy is his student i think...

[Wells]

Michael phillips is good. I posted those vids because they are of temple style students...the bigger guy has around 13 yrs training...the skinny guy is his student i think...

Yes, they mention temple style in the second video...

Excuse me, but what they demonstrate looks like simple body mechanics to me so far and not like jing.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

There's another thought that I wanted to emphasize here...and the Tao Gong students should think about that (again, I mean especially YOU, h.uriahr!):

 

I cant say for sure if John Chang is actually legit but if he is then he is light years beyond Gary.

Surely, you cannot acknowledge that John Chang is a legit Taoist Immortal, because he became it by practicing NEI KUNG and not Tao Kung!! That's the whole point, isn't it?

John Chang achieved that by replenishing his "battery", his dantian by bringing in enormous masses of Yang Chi (in fact "Heaven Chi") and Yin Chi (in fact "Earth Chi"). These energies are the energies of the TAO, in fact (primordial) Yuan Chi!

That's exactly what Gary teaches in his Nei Kung with the exercises "Condensing Breathing" As Gary teaches it, you suck in the yuan chi from your surroundings through your skin into your five center lines in the arms, the legs and the spine and into dantian! It becomes clear that Gary's version of "Condensing Breathing" is the original "indoor-student" version of it compared to the "outdoor-student" version that Liao describes in his Tai Chi Classics where you only condense your own chi that is already in your body beneath the skin into your bones! Why? Because you can't replenish your burning out energy with that version! Now, compare that with the version with the exercise "condensing into the spine" that Liao describes in his new book "Nine Nights with the Taoist Master". He describes this as THE ultimate exercise to replenish your TE/yuan chi/"one"(=yuan) chi in your dantian: You bring outside tao yuan chi through your skin into your spine! That replenishes your TE (=yuan chi), the piece of Tao in yourself so it never burns out! These are the words of the master himself! You can read it up in "Nine Nights"!

So Gary's condensing breathing in fact replenishes your TE!!! And it's part of Nei Kung, not the Tao Gong you learn! John Chang's Nei Kung has the same goal!

So, Nei Kung leads to the goal that you become an IMMORTAL!

There are more exercises in Gary's/Temple Style Nei Kung that serve that purpose "Heaven and earth breathing", where you suck in Heaven and Earth energy into your dantian and "layered Condensing" where you suck in yuan chi from all directions through your skin into your dantian.

Nei Kung is the part of every great system that can make you an IMMORTAL!

 

2) Gary didnt finish the training. He may tell you he did but he didnt. If you bring up certain aspects of real Tao Gong training, which is beyond neikung, he doesnt have a clue as to what you're talking about.

And? It seems to me that Tao Gong has simply another approach than Nei Kung. In Nei Kung you concentrate on replenishing your TE, the piece of Tao in your dantian.

In Tao Gong you concentrate on merging with the Tao around you.

The goal seems to be the same: To become immortal.

It depends on your personality what approach is better for you. So it's a shame that the Nei Kung is seemingly teached no more in the Temple Style school, at least in the USA.

From that POV, nor Tao Gong or Nei Kung is "better" than the other!

 

I've seen Gary's supposed "jing" videos and none of his videos are impressive to me. The only fah jing I've ever experienced felt like I was in a car wreck. The force was such that my ears rang and my mind fell out and I had a temporary amnesia, forgetting where I was and what I was doing then an actual fear for once because I've never experienced such power [...]

True! But the quotes I found about some guys first-hand experiences with Gary's Jing in the net that I already posted here prove that Gary has at least the same amount of Jing that you experienced through your teacher! Certainly if you have Jing you can regulate the amount you want to express! You don't want to kill everybody who wants to test you, lol! John Chang uses 0.2% of his Jing to treat people! So your experience doesn't prove that your teacher has more Jing than Gary! Use your brain, buddy, not your belief!

 

[...]and the funny thing is that my sifu has nowhere near the power that Liao Sifu has.

It's all simply claims and belief. Either Liao or your teacher or Gary could kill you. How more powerful they are beyond this point? You had to arrange a battle between them to be sure!

Concerning power: Can Liao heat up solid matter to ignite fire with his Jing as John Chang can? If not, John Chang could be more powerful than him...through Nei Kung only!

 

I'm sure Gary has juice but I'd guarantee you that he is nowhere as powerful as any of the actual "Ordained" Masters in the temple style system, and I could careless if he sucks and explodes and vibrates and ups and downs etc etc for hours and hours a day for 50 yrs. That doesnt matter if you dont ever actually touch upon the tao within.

You believe that, you don't know that!

Also, Gary's training replenishes "the tao within" as I proved above!

 

Edit: Just for the record: I am sure that Waysun Liao is a Taoist Immortal and one of the most powerful people on this planet! As are in my opinion all of his old school master students (including Gary!)!

Edited April 9, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

I just PM'd h.uriahr to prove my last inputs in this thread wrong, if he is capable of it!

[dwai]

Yes, they mention temple style in the second video...

Excuse me, but what they demonstrate looks like simple body mechanics to me so far and not like jing.

Hmm...so you are expecting thunder and lightning with fa jin?

There are many levels of achievment...you get back what you put in to the art. Imho there are no shortcuts....traditional training has evolved over millenia to get where it is at...i doubt if some "new" approach can trump that....but thats just my opinion.

 

As far as nei gong vs dao gong goes...i think they are the same. What is nei gong? Internal cultivation? What is dao gong? Internal cultivation. Both facilitate internal alchemy..

 

Then .there are things that students of a particular system simply will just not tell outsiders...so huhriar might opt not to prove anything to you...he doesnt need to. Each of us should be honest to ourselves and decide what, how and how much practice is beneficial.

 

I am happy at my pace..,.i can only afford to spend 45-60 mins a day on my practice at the moment...and there are cool off periods in between. Sometimes my body and energy needs the break...

[Wells]

Hmm...so you are expecting thunder and lightning with fa jin?

There are many levels of achievment...you get back what you put in to the art.

I agree with you. There are surely several forms and levels of "fajin".

Most taichi systems don't go beyond simple body structure and tendon power and call that already fajin. Michael Phillips cultivates what he calls a "hydraulic pulse wave" that comes from his dantian, flows through his body fluids and can be transmitted to someone by touch, a clearly physical kinetic force. Then there are other forms of energy waves that are not kinetic (anymore) that can transmitted with or even without touching someone and maybe damage the chi of the opponent directly. Maybe you can transfer that over your shen, your energy around you and over your TE, when it has grown to an energy bubble around you.

I would call fajin the transfer of energy beyond the level of body mechanics (structure, tendons).

 

Imho there are no shortcuts....traditional training has evolved over millenia to get where it is at...i doubt if some "new" approach can trump that....but thats just my opinion.

Gary's approach to start directly with Nei Kung seems to work for his students according to the quotes I posted. I doubt that it can be answered if that's a better approach or if it maybe limits the levels you can reach in the end. IMO it's a faster approach.

 

As far as nei gong vs dao gong goes...i think they are the same. What is nei gong? Internal cultivation? What is dao gong? Internal cultivation. Both facilitate internal alchemy..

It's great to hear that opinion from an actual Taichi Tao student!

I came to the same conclusion. Nei Kung concentrates on regrowing your internal "spark" of Tao and has a more "Yang" approach by actively sucking and pushing energy in. Tao Kung also incorporate regrowing your inner piece of Tao but concentrates also (or more) on communicating with Tao and has a more "Yin" approach by opening to Tao and allow it to fill someone up on it's own.

Edit: I also heard an opinion that Nei Kung would be a more "indirect" approach than Tao Gong because it would concentrate on transforming your Chi -> Jing -> Shen -> TE. Tao Gong would be more "direct" by allowing the inflow of the Tao to regrow your TE.

I don't know if that's true, IMO you try to transform your chi and to regrow your TE in BOTH systems.

But in any case, the results seem to be similar.

 

Then .there are things that students of a particular system simply will just not tell outsiders...so huhriar might opt not to prove anything to you...he doesnt need to. Each of us should be honest to ourselves and decide what, how and how much practice is beneficial.

When h.uriahr comes on strong by downplaying Gary and Nei Kung he should back it up with more than just his beliefs and "my teacher said so!".

I always try to back up my statements by arguments and experiences of others or myself.

 

I am happy at my pace..,.i can only afford to spend 45-60 mins a day on my practice at the moment...and there are cool off periods in between. Sometimes my body and energy needs the break...

Sure, it's great that you have found a system that enriches your life. Even so I hope for you that you will find even more time in the future for your practice.

Edited April 9, 2012 by Dorian Black

[mjjbecker]

I have been tested by John Chang and also grounded patients that he was treating. It is not 'jing' that he is using. It is qi-a very strong continuous projection of qi which feels like electricity. Sifu Chang usually used needles but I also saw him use touch via his fingers. With the needles or his fingers there was only touch contact made and no physical force was applied.

 

If Mr Clyman's method of treatment also feels like an electric current then perhaps it is similar to what John Chang does. If not then it is different. It doesn't mean better or worse, just different.

 

The electric-yang qi-is a result of some kinds of martial neigong. Not just John Chang but also masters of several different martial arts school have reputedly been able to project this kind of qi. While it can dredge the energy channels, clearing out qi blockages and sick qi, it is not the best method for doing so-it isn't supposed to be. It is for combat. Other methods of qigong healing have shown themselves to be more suitable for treating illnesses such as cancer.

[Wells]

I have been tested by John Chang and also grounded patients that he was treating.

It's great to have a member of ttb who witnessed John Chang's power first hand and can therefore testify that he is legit!

Another proof that this enormous power level ( > 9000! ...inside joke) and more important, IMMORTALITY can be attained through a system of MARTIAL NEI KUNG!

 

It is not 'jing' that he is using. It is qi-a very strong continuous projection of qi which feels like electricity. Sifu Chang usually used needles but I also saw him use touch via his fingers. With the needles or his fingers there was only touch contact made and no physical force was applied.

 

If Mr Clyman's method of treatment also feels like an electric current then perhaps it is similar to what John Chang does. If not then it is different. It doesn't mean better or worse, just different.

"Jing" has many meanings in taichi. One is the amount of power that can be transferred to another person by on's own chi. Another is that it's in fact condensed chi. After both definitions John's chi is "Jing" in taichi terms! John CONDENSED the chi in his dantian...IMO it's consequential DENSITY is a much more important reason for it's power and it's ability to affect other people and even dead matter than that it's a mix of yin and yang chi! Everybody has Yin and Yang chi and can blow it out but can't affect others... because nobody has condensed it! Almost all John Chang fans overlook that fact and think that it's all about Yin-Yang-Gong. It isn't!

 

How does Temple Style produced Jing feel? It can feel like being "hit by a brick" or like electricity. According to ttb member forestofsoul's encounter with Waysun Liao, it felt like "liquid electritity":

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/2126-actual-manifestation-of-chi/page__p__19556__hl__Waysun%20Liao__fromsearch__1entry19556

What we did was we all gathered in a circle. Master Liao had us put our hands out in the tai chi ball stance, which is standing shoulder width apart, with our palms facing one another, perpendicular to the floor. Sort of like holding a beach ball in front of you. He placed his hands around my hands, without touching. Then he said, let me know when you feel something.

 

Mind you, I was a chi skeptic at this time. I could feel vague light buzzings, but nothing substantial.

 

What I did was try to keep an open, empty mind and a relaxed body. I was curious, but quite sceptical. What happened was it felt like suddenly I was hooked up to a power generator. When I was younger, I once grabbed a refrigerator that wasn't fully grounded, and was mildly electocuted. It was similar, but it felt good. It started out vague, then I felt a lot of pressure as though I was submerged under water. I said nothing, and the feelings got very strong. Then the pressure gave way and it felt like liquid electicity was flowing throughout my body, and it felt as real and vivid as an oak table. I also felt my lower dan tien and upper dan tien swelling and opening, and it was ecstatic. It also felt like there was a fine electrical wire connecting the two dan tiens. I felt giddy and high, and couldn't stop smiling. It also felt there was an actual ball between my hands.

 

The main thought I had was "Oh my God I can't beleive this is real!"

 

Master Liao said that the object was to cultivate oneself so that one could feel that way without a master "charging you up".

In temple style, you can control the frequenzy of the jing you are using. If you want to give someone a physical kinetic blow, you make the frequenzy low. Then it feels like hit by a brick..and the vibration that goes through your arm will be clearly visible. As I witnessed it for example in several Michael Phillips videos.

When you make the frequenzy of the vibration/wave high it's form of energy also changes. It's no more a kinetic blow. The vibration is therefore only a fast trembling of the hands (as I witnessed it on a Clyman vid)...or even no more visible at all. Then the sensation will change more to something like electricity...even if it's not electricity at all.

 

The electric-yang qi-is a result of some kinds of martial neigong. Not just John Chang but also masters of several different martial arts school have reputedly been able to project this kind of qi. While it can dredge the energy channels, clearing out qi blockages and sick qi, it is not the best method for doing so-it isn't supposed to be. It is for combat. Other methods of qigong healing have shown themselves to be more suitable for treating illnesses such as cancer.

I don't see a reason why there could be a better chi for ANY purpose than condensed primordial heaven & earth chi because that's the ultimate source chi of EVERYTHING.

 

For the record: IMO neither Mo Pai Nei Kung nor Temple Style Nei Kung is better. BUT Temple Style Nei Kung seems to get your dantian full of condensed primordial chi WITHOUT putting you in mortal danger in the process. I mean we all know Kosta's book where John talks about the pain and the danger he faced when he forced the stuff into his dantian. In Mo Pai, filling the dantian up with heaven chi, the condensing and the filling up with earth chi are consecutive processes...in Temple Style you do all of these SYNCHRONISTICALLY from the beginning! And I never heard a Temple Style Nei Kung student dying from training! Therefore this approach seems to be much more safe.

 

And as it seems the only remaining available source (what I mean: EVERYBODY can simply BUY it via internet!) on this planet for this kind of Nei Kung is in fact... GARY J. CLYMAN! Because Waysun Liao's book Taichi Classics doesn't go into detail concerning the training, he writes himself in it that it isn't intended to be a complete training manual and rather thought to be a source of reference and background information!

And there are people who want to talk Gary AND his system down because of his ostentatious attitude! God, that's funny...or rather COMPLETE MADNESS!!!

Edited April 10, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Ya Mu]

Hey Dorian Black. I must say I admire your enthusiasm for Nei Kung. Don't know that I have seen this much enthusiasm in anyone here on this forum in a while. Dude - you are INTO IT!

Suggest you also have diversionary activity in your life as there does need to be balance. Play guitar, swim, plant a garden, whatever it is you like to do.

 

Not suggesting you do so to change teachers as it sounds like you really like the one you have, but for a broader perspective you may wish to do a bit more research as there are several teachers out there that can do these things. And some have different but very interesting and amazing talents. Perhaps a trip to China would be interesting to you.

 

And, I did see someone either inferred that he was or called Gary an asshole. I would like to see people walk in the others shoes. If I am not mistaken as this was quite a long time ago, and I may have him mixed up with someone else, but I think I met Gary at a convention; he was pleasant to me, and he wasn't, to me, an "asshole". He was just like everyone else on Earth and has one.

 

I have also seen other people call other teachers "asshole"; mostly these are people who don't have a freakin clue and are too self-centered and narcissistic to even really have any interest to find out what the teacher is teaching, usually just making flash judgments about the person. I remember hearing someone calling a really good teacher I know an "asshole" before I met the teacher. When I did meet the guy and interacted with him, I found him to be a nice guy and not at all what this person who told me that said. We ended up interacting quite a bit for 3 days at a qigong convention and I think I understand where he comes from with his teachings and I think he understands where I come from with mine, and I do like him. We got along really well. He is an author and many on this forum have referred to him. My point is one man's "asshole" is another man's really good teacher.

Keep up your study!

[Wells]

Hey Dorian Black. I must say I admire your enthusiasm for Nei Kung. Don't know that I have seen this much enthusiasm in anyone here on this forum in a while. Dude - you are INTO IT!

Suggest you also have diversionary activity in your life as there does need to be balance. Play guitar, swim, plant a garden, whatever it is you like to do.

Thanks for the flowers!

Also thanks for the suggestion but I have a full time job, a household to keep and Gary trained like a maniac 6-10 hours a day for 5 years with Nei Kung before he got his Jing although he got the whole Temple Style Nei Kung system. He lived mostly in a car back then, training most of his time awake, no girlfriend, no beating off! If you want to achieve his power level, you have to do that insane amount of work! Also, you can't ejaculate if you want to progress. Years of celibacy, man! So I already broke off with my girlfriend for that reason! You have to live like a monk to get there! What do you think why the guys back in the old days lived in a temple...?

 

Not suggesting you do so to change teachers as it sounds like you really like the one you have, but for a broader perspective you may wish to do a bit more research as there are several teachers out there that can do these things. And some have different but very interesting and amazing talents. Perhaps a trip to China would be interesting to you.

I have done research for 18 years now and put most of my free time and most of my money into it. Now I'm just happy that I found at least one Nei Kung system that seems complete and most likely will bring me to the heights I want achieve and therefore I am concentrating on practicing it. The openmindness I had for the last 18 years was good to evaluate the worth of all of the systems I was confronted with for my personal goals and to gather information and to develop understanding. But this phase of field work has now come to an end to me. Why searching further?

 

And, I did see someone either inferred that he was or called Gary an asshole. I would like to see people walk in the others shoes. If I am not mistaken as this was quite a long time ago, and I may have him mixed up with someone else, but I think I met Gary at a convention; he was pleasant to me, and he wasn't, to me, an "asshole". He was just like everyone else on Earth and has one.

Good to hear that!

 

I have also seen other people call other teachers "asshole"; mostly these are people who don't have a freakin clue and are too self-centered and narcissistic to even really have any interest to find out what the teacher is teaching, usually just making flash judgments about the person. I remember hearing someone calling a really good teacher I know an "asshole" before I met the teacher. When I did meet the guy and interacted with him, I found him to be a nice guy and not at all what this person who told me that said. We ended up interacting quite a bit for 3 days at a qigong convention and I think I understand where he comes from with his teachings and I think he understands where I come from with mine, and I do like him. We got along really well. He is an author and many on this forum have referred to him. My point is one man's "asshole" is another man's really good teacher.

I think so too. Gary think he's great and because he achieved everything he got by incredible dedication and by an insane amount of intense work all by himself, he's right IMO! He had no "energy transmissions" by Liao to get his power. He trained most of that time without being member in a school, without a master, only himself and the system! He got his level by himself! People should pay respect to that fact, especially members of the Taichi Tao Temple school! I respect it so I don't have any problem with Gary's Ego.

 

Keep up your study!

I will, good luck to your own evolution too!

Edited April 11, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

Considering the points of my previous comment it's hard to understand why the Taichi Tao Temple school is so upset that Gary sells their whole Nei Kung system on DVD.

Or as Gary told me: "Liao is not very happy with me!"

I mean most people will quit anyway before they achieve a high power level because the process is so incredibly demanding.

And those who endure the effort deserve the results...at least IMO.