To people bashing desire, hope, and wants

[Lucky7Strikes]

I thought this thread was relevant to practitioners.

 

[tulku]

The third noble truth of Buddhism is that if you end desire (or, rather, the perception that you need something for happiness), you'll end suffering.

[tulku]

to accept joy in one's existence is to accept sadness in one's existence..

 

you cannot have one without the other..

 

this is why the buddha advocated the middle road..

 

no joy no sadness just pure emptiness of the void..

 

this is how one gets to end samsara and the cycle of rebirth and death..

[tulku]

all desires, hopes and wants are impermanent..

 

so what if you become a billionaire or have a different woman every night?..

 

what are you going to sacrifice to achieve a goal or a target which is totally impermanent in the first place?..

 

if i say i can satisfy all your desires, wants and hopes but you will lose all your chances at enlightenment .. you will lose your chance your only chance of destroying the cycle of rebirth and death.. will you still wanna satisfy your desires and wants?

[tulku]

[Birch]

I liked it. I did feel sad reading some parts. Content reading other parts of it. Hopeful reading some parts, devastated (briefly) reading other parts.

 

Who's 'bashing desire, hope, and wants'? Lucky?

[thelerner]

all desires, hopes and wants are impermanent..

 

so what if you become a billionaire or have a different woman every night?..

 

what are you going to sacrifice to achieve a goal or a target which is totally impermanent in the first place?..

 

if i say i can satisfy all your desires, wants and hopes but you will lose all your chances at enlightenment .. you will lose your chance your only chance of destroying the cycle of rebirth and death.. will you still wanna satisfy your desires and wants?

Hell yes, matter of fact if I could fulfill half my desires,wants and hopes I'd give up my chance at enlightenment. There was recently a lottery with the chance at winning was 1 in 160 million. Some people see enlightenment as having similar odds !, if so, giving up my chances for enlightenment this life time, for a few million dollars, good family, friends, fun, learning, contentment.. seems like a great deal. Very rational.

 

Maybe next lifetime I'll be born into a culture that's a little more open to the concept of enlightenment and I'll have a head start in that life. Or maybe the one after that.. maybe I have all the time in the world, or maybe not.

 

So for this one I accept my desires, acknowledge my shadows, and strive to live a fulfilling life.

[Birch]

Hell yes, matter of fact if I could fulfill half my desires,wants and hopes I'd give up my chance at enlightenment. There was recently a lottery with the chance at winning was 1 in 160 million. Some people see enlightenment as having similar odds !, if so, giving up my chances for enlightenment this life time, for a few million dollars, good family, friends, fun, learning, contentment.. seems like a great deal. Very rational.

 

Maybe next lifetime I'll be born into a culture that's a little more open to the concept of enlightenment and I'll have a head start in that life. Or maybe the one after that.. maybe I have all the time in the world, or maybe not.

 

So for this one I accept my desires, acknowledge my shadows, and strive to live a fulfilling life.

 

Good idea!

 

I have to ask this stupid dumb-assed question. 'Who wants 'enlightenment''? Really? if one has even a small inkling of what it is or even what it might be then IMO, no odds matter. IMO what you think is 'You' doesn't decide anyway. In that respect, 'You' are the principle obstacle in the entire endeavor. Of course not 'you' The Lerner, you're no obstacle at all. To the contrary.

 

I'd love a few billion but aside from financial security I'm not even very sure what I'd do with them, given I haven't grown up in the ways of it. It wouldn't, for example, at this late stage IMO, buy me sufficient influence to effect the present tide. Which is exactly what I want to do.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I liked it. I did feel sad reading some parts. Content reading other parts of it. Hopeful reading some parts, devastated (briefly) reading other parts.

 

Who's 'bashing desire, hope, and wants'? Lucky?

Well, tulku seems to be pretty against them.

 

A lot of traditional ascetic texts do tell practitioners to cut off sensual desires, or in the more extreme cases to abandon hope in favor of the present moment. And Buddhist texts often say this desire will lead to that hell, etc.

 

But I like this guy's reflections more insightful.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[tulku]

Hell yes, matter of fact if I could fulfill half my desires,wants and hopes I'd give up my chance at enlightenment. There was recently a lottery with the chance at winning was 1 in 160 million. Some people see enlightenment as having similar odds !, if so, giving up my chances for enlightenment this life time, for a few million dollars, good family, friends, fun, learning, contentment.. seems like a great deal. Very rational.

 

Maybe next lifetime I'll be born into a culture that's a little more open to the concept of enlightenment and I'll have a head start in that life. Or maybe the one after that.. maybe I have all the time in the world, or maybe not.

 

So for this one I accept my desires, acknowledge my shadows, and strive to live a fulfilling life.

 

this is why i say god cannot help humanity... only humanity can help themselves..

[tulku]

Well, tulku seems to be pretty against them.

 

A lot of traditional ascetic texts do tell practitioners to cut off sensual desires, or in the more extreme cases to abandon hope in favor of the present moment. And Buddhist texts often say this desire will lead to that hell, etc.

 

But I like this guy's reflections more insightful.

 

tradition texts tell practitioners to cut off all desires and even hopes because the mind would be clouded and muddied by desires and hopes..

 

the Buddhist's definition of hell does not only mean the dimension of hell itself.. it also means that the mind itself will be in hell as it is twisted by desires and hopes.. and the state of mind at the moment of death will lead one's soul into the respective dimension..

 

if your mind is at peace, your soul would ascend into higher dimensions.. if your mind is in hell, then your soul would descend into hell

[zanshin]

Rather die while I'm living than live when I'm dead.

[thelerner]

 

I'd love a few billion but aside from financial security I'm not even very sure what I'd do with them, given I haven't grown up in the ways of it. It wouldn't..

 

I don't think we want a billion dollars or a different girl every night. We want security, a little luxury, yet we also want meaning and accomplishment. A few millions sounds great, though I'm happy with what I have. One good mate seems infinitely better then 100's of one night stands. The cold glass of water is preferential to the most expensive drink most days, most of the time. Reading a book like 'The Millionaire Next Door' rips up the stereotypes and you learn the majority are intelligent, with it, people.

 

Desire can be good, it can move us down the path. It's a good star to follow, but bad if its a heavy pack on our back.

 

I do not strive for a supernatural enlightenment, instead I aim to be a complete human being. Not perfect, but in superior health, superior happiness, at peace with my environment and leaving the world a little better for my presence.

[Birch]

I reckon people cut off their desires hopes and wants themselves all the time. If you actually take the time and the strange but rewarding path to follow such thoughts and feelings all the way to their cessation or transformation into something else then IMO/IME there's some really something there. It's the very opposite of repression which just ends up expressing itself elsewhere IMO/IME. Personally it gives me a headache and a strange compressed feeling in the solar plexus. I'm not saying to act on any of those desires, as that also just cuts them off.

[3bob]

to accept joy in one's existence is to accept sadness in one's existence..

 

you cannot have one without the other..

 

this is why the buddha advocated the middle road..

 

no joy no sadness just pure emptiness of the void..

 

this is how one gets to end samsara and the cycle of rebirth and death..

 

This interpretation of the "middle way" is more or less dead wrong and leading to oblivion.

Edited April 6, 2012 by 3bob

[tumoessence]

This interpretation of the "middle way" is more or dead wrong and leading to oblivion.

 

I like it.

I also like what Ram Tzu has said that it isn't about cutting off desire and aversion but cutting off attachment to desire and aversion so that if we don't get what we want or we can't avoid getting what we don't want we don't freak out we don't react, but can stay in a mode of presence to what is.

[Lucky7Strikes]

tradition texts tell practitioners to cut off all desires and even hopes because the mind would be clouded and muddied by desires and hopes..

 

the Buddhist's definition of hell does not only mean the dimension of hell itself.. it also means that the mind itself will be in hell as it is twisted by desires and hopes.. and the state of mind at the moment of death will lead one's soul into the respective dimension..

 

if your mind is at peace, your soul would ascend into higher dimensions.. if your mind is in hell, then your soul would descend into hell

Is your mind at peace?

[3bob]

various desires are like changing masks put over the one true desire,

yet the one true desire puts masks aside and reveals its face of smiles

and happiness of the compassionate and wise one...

Edited April 6, 2012 by 3bob

[konchog uma]

joy and sorrow are natural expressions of the heart. The middle road is the road beyond attachment to joy and aversion to sorrow. Oblivion of the void is a stasis, a delusion. Nothing is static. Everything that exists vibrates, orbits, changes.

 

The buddha didn't advocate a life without joy or sorrow. He advocated a life without attachment and aversion. Equinimity doesn't mean oblivion.

[Owledge]

Focus all your energy on living well. This mind-limited existence is a divine realm, for it is Oneness' most precious ( and probably only ) toy.

 

Think about it: Enjoyment comes from making new experiences, to grow, to be confronted with novelty. But if you already are everything, then enjoyment comes from experiencing less than that.

 

So at whatever point you are, you define yourself by contrasting yourself to a different state than your own.

Edited April 6, 2012 by Owledge

[thelerner]

joy and sorrow are natural expressions of the heart. The middle road is the road beyond attachment to joy and aversion to sorrow. Oblivion of the void is a stasis, a delusion. Nothing is static. Everything that exists vibrates, orbits, changes.

 

The buddha didn't advocate a life without joy or sorrow. He advocated a life without attachment and aversion. Equinimity doesn't mean oblivion.

I agree with this. To some extent its a question of Being natural, which may be a loaded term because of cultural bias and garbage. Still for the collective humanity, I hope being natural includes deep peace, joy and sorrow.

 

I think to be true to our selves and true to the moment we need to feel sorrow or joy when the moment dictates it and afterward return to the deep peace (hopefully tinged with joy).

 

What archetype do we aim for? Cold Ascetic ? Innocent Child; or mixture of both??

[tulku]

I agree with this. To some extent its a question of Being natural, which may be a loaded term because of cultural bias and garbage. Still for the collective humanity, I hope being natural includes deep peace, joy and sorrow.

 

I think to be true to our selves and true to the moment we need to feel sorrow or joy when the moment dictates it and afterward return to the deep peace (hopefully tinged with joy).

 

What archetype do we aim for? Cold Ascetic ? Innocent Child; or mixture of both??

 

Cold Innocent Ascetic Child

[thelerner]

Cold Innocent Ascetic Child

I think we should at least strive for luke warm.

 

The problem may be that the Buddha (& Buddhism) had and taught to two constituents. The dedicated monks who would dedicate there lives seeking enlightenment and lay people. There are quotes, sermons, and sutras for both. Growing up in a non Buddhist culture we see division where there is none. Just different paths.

Edited April 7, 2012 by thelerner