张高澄道长 - Daoist Zhang Gaocheng

[Walker]

Dear Awaken,

 

Thank you for beginning to share your story about meeting Zhang Gaocheng. Please tell us more detail. Please tell us exactly what comments you made about the Wu-Liu Xianzong and the Wu-Liu methods when you were there. Also, please tell us exactly what Master Zhang said to you in reply. The details are important to help people understand the nature of your argument, as well as Zhang Gaocheng's response.

 

Finally, why do you think that Zhang Gaocheng said that the Wu-Liu Xianzong is "其实精到?" Do you think he was lying? Or joking? Or wrong?

 

Thank you.

[awaken]

Dear Awaken,

Thank you for beginning to share your story about meeting Zhang Gaocheng. Please tell us more detail. Please tell us exactly what comments you made about the Wu-Liu Xianzong and the Wu-Liu methods when you were there. Also, please tell us exactly what Master Zhang said to you in reply. The details are important to help people understand the nature of your argument, as well as Zhang Gaocheng's response.

Finally, why do you think that Zhang Gaocheng said that the Wu-Liu Xianzong is "其实精到?" Do you think he was lying? Or joking? Or wrong?

Thank you.

You really don't understand what I said.

 

Now I recognize your hostility.

 

Sorry I have no choice that I have to ignore your questions from now on.

 

When we talk, we must notice the 弦外之音，the things that we don't talk about.

 

That is more important then the questions are.

 

Some people are very smart to know that, for example , Jeff ,ha.

 

But not everyone.

 

To talk to someone who has a clear heart is very pleasure.

 

But....

 

 

When you are chasing something outside, you forget your feet.

 

 

I have talked a lot about wu Liu pai.

 

If you are interested in what I talked about wu Liu pai, you can read the posts I have written before in other threads.

 

I like zhang daozhang.

 

I don't won't to judge or criticize him.

 

 

What he did for Daoism is much more then me.

 

How can I have the qualification to judge his words?

 

He is the one we should show our respect, not judgement on the net.

 

 

 

If you are interested in my concepts, you can read my posts.

 

If you are interested in zhang daozhang ,you can donate money to 桐柏宮

 

I would say thank you for your beneficent。

Edited February 8, 2017 by awaken

[Daeluin]

Now I recognize your hostility.

 

Perhaps it is merely language barrier.

 

Very recently I learned something subtle....

 

The difference between:

 

This is what I hear you say.

 

and

 

This is what I say you are.

 

I can say you are hostile, or I can say your words cause me to feel attacked.

 

In one case, I am calling you a name. In the other case, I am letting you know how your words made me feel.

 

When someone calls me hostile, I might react with defensiveness. I might hear it as an attack.

 

When someone says they feel attacked by me - they are not saying I attacked them - they are showing me how my words changed them.

 

Is the difference clear?

 

When someone cuts me, do I cut them back, or show them my wound?

[Walker]

In Chinese slang there is a kind of tactic in discussion or debate called 玩太極, or "playing taiji," which is a reference to pushing hands. It means that when a person gets pinned down with a specific question that he or she can't or won't answer, the person then deflects the conversation elsewhere, to push the flow of discussion away from that which it would be inconvenient to face head on.

 

Accusing the questioner of being impolite or making the person receiving the question lose face is a very common trick in conversational 太極. This is generally a perfect escape hatch to use in Chinese culture, because it makes the questioner into the bad guy, and puts the onus on him or her not only to stop asking questions, but also to apologize and try to smooth things over, because in a "face" culture, it is actually often considered worse to point out another person's contradictions (even egregious ones), than it is to contradict oneself (even egregiously). Thus, "I don't have to talk to you because you are not friendly" is a trump card that usually works.

 

My questions about Awaken's conversation with Zhang Gaocheng are simple and worded with ample decorum. They could have been answered with fewer words than she used to explain why she won't answer them. Classic 玩太極了.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Walker

[Taoist Texts]

 

If your teacher don't do this, I suggest you should go to China to find more true teachers to see how they talk about 煉心。

 

 

Unfortunately that would not help. I observed plenty of 老外 who spent half life in China, fluent, Cinicized , married to the Chinese even. Did not help. They remained the same 老外 s who came to China 15-20 years ago. No sense of Chinese culture whatsoever although priding themselves on it. Perpetually angry too, because subconsciously they hated having to live there.

[Daeluin]

If humility is sought, how can it be used as a weapon?

 

People are very sensitive - I cannot know what they may react to.

 

When they do, I am happy to work at adapting so harmony can be made.

 

Right and wrong are relative absolutes, so it can be a dance, and there is no position that cannot be yielded happily to one who desires it.

 

A deer in the woods reacts before I can make a sound, but I am happy to keep my mouth shut.

[awaken]

Unfortunately that would not help. I observed plenty of 老外 who spent half life in China, fluent, Cinicized , married to the Chinese even. Did not help. They remained the same 老外 s who came to China 15-20 years ago. No sense of Chinese culture whatsoever although priding themselves on it. Perpetually angry too, because subconsciously they hated having to live there.

Haha...

 

Interesting

 

 

 

When I was in 桐柏宮，I saw some daozhangs play flute.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiao_(flute)

 

I bought one from the friends in 桐柏宮

 

They also play 古琴

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guqin

 

I saw one young and handsome daozhang play Guqin very well.

 

And some daozhangs practice Chinese Kung Fu in the yard every morning.

 

The weather is good and comfortable in summer.

 

The earth Qi in 桐柏宮 is very strong.

 

The mountain has a lot of hard rock.

 

The view there is very beautiful.

 

 

 

桐柏宮 is a good place for Anyone who is interested in daoist culture.

 

And there are some good place worth to visit in China.

 

I have been to 重陽宮 in 西安 once

 

I have heard 青羊宮 in 四川 is good, too.

 

 

http://m.wdgf.cn/index.php

 

http://www.daoistkungfu.com

 

This is 陳師行功夫館

 

Look good, too.

 

But it seems to emphasize in Kung fu, not daoist cultivation.

 

 

 

 

We are very lucky to live in the internet world.

 

We can communicate very easily.

 

I am glad there is a forum like this web and there are so many good people here who are interested in Chinese culture.

 

I want to learn English and you want to know Chinese culture.

 

We can be good friends.

 

Maybe some day, we can visit China together or we can make a meeting in 桐柏宮...

Edited February 8, 2017 by awaken

[Arkady Shadursky]

Thank you Walker. IMHO you vocalize what do most of the fellow members clearly see. 

 

I believe the root of this is in violation of the Tolerance Taiji (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42695-tolerance-taiji/#entry723795) A.A.Khokhlov has written about few months ago. (BTW as extreme Yin gives birth to Yang - this violation may have corresponding consequence...)

 

Once the community wants it - I am sure one day this forum will inevitably become mostly free of trolls, demagogy,  offenses etc.

 

For all of us it would be real step forth to the Dao - as an ultimate harmony.
---
Best Regards,
Arkady

[Mudfoot]

Once the community wants it - I am sure one day this forum will inevitably become mostly free of trolls, demagogy,  offenses etc.

 

For all of us it would be real step forth to the Dao - as an ultimate harmony.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

Nasty discussions between adherents to spiritual traditions has been the rule, not the exception, in all recorded history.

It is not likely that it will change.

 

Keeping it below actual murder is maybe as good as it gets?

[Arkady Shadursky]

Nasty discussions between adherents to spiritual traditions has been the rule, not the exception, in all recorded history.

It is not likely that it will change.

 

Keeping it below actual murder is maybe as good as it gets?

 

I see "Shaolin based tradition" in your interests - probably this is why you express this kind of "martial arts" point of view. 

 

Probably you are right in general - talking about the society in overall. But as here we all are Daoism followers we all are cultivating. Cultivating, the harmony inside of us is growing. And the harmony in communication between us is growing as well. Even if some part of members would not cultivate - the other, major part will do it. And our Community becomes more and more harmonious. The general "energy field" of the forum inevitably influences even those who are not cultivating - helping them to change.

 

I am sure we are able to go along this way.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

Edited February 8, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Mudfoot]

It would be a misguided assumption to blame my current practice. Most of my nasty ass fighting practice has been in so called daoist arts or under so called daoist masters. But that was years ago, and I have lost the misguided aggression of my youth.

 

And if you read books about chinese history, you will find that there have been occasions when Daoists and Buddhists have competed about ownership of temples and lands.

 

I belive that 2:nd generation quanzhen and Long Men Pai patriarch was involved is such public discussions.

 

Source for that would be Eskildsens book on the early quanzhen masters. I also have a vague memory of a documentary on chinese holy places that takes up these conflicts.

 

If I was truly interested in the subject I would have been able to give you proper references, but...

Edited February 8, 2017 by Mudfoot

[Pavel Karavaev]

Thank you guys! It's inspiring to read your posts.

 

Sincerely, Pavel.

[Walker]

@ Arkady, no need to say thanks, just glad other people can see this silliness and call it what it is. I see Awaken is still here, busily working to distract us with fluffy talk of buying flutes and how many handsome friends she has, while she remains unwilling to answer a few simple questions about Zhang Gaocheng's ideas on Daoism.

 

Hmm.

 

I conclude that she in fact never had much of a conversation with Master Zhang, at least not one that pertained to Wu-Liu teachings.

 

By the way, people, the notion that one could go to live in or visit a Daoist temple in China and never see anger is total fantasy. I've personally witnessed wise, respected, typically soft-spoken, and *famously compassionate* Daoist masters display the full range of rage and wrath. I've seen people who got out of line be excoriated with volume and vigor plenty of times. Supposedly in its heyday Wudang had a prison for wayward monks. White Cloud Monastery monks immolated one who was corrupt and colluded with Japanese occupying forces. There has always been rebuke, including wrathful rebuke, in this tradition. In Daoism one is not required to eat a sandwich full of bullshit and then thank the chef. One can waltz into a message board and get away with being full of it, so long as one dresses one's insults up in pseudo politeness and a facetious passive aggressive veneer. That doesn't work in traditional Daoist circles, which are happy to reject and eject.

 

非其人不授.

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

By the way, people, the notion that one could go to live in or visit a Daoist temple in China and never see anger is total fantasy. I've personally witnessed wise, respected, typically soft-spoken, and *famously compassionate* Daoist masters display the full range of rage and wrath. I've seen people who got out of line be excoriated with volume and vigor plenty of times. Supposedly in its heyday Wudang had a prison for wayward monks. White Cloud Monastery monks immolated one who was corrupt and colluded with Japanese occupying forces. There has always been rebuke, including wrathful rebuke,

Oh but those were all fake and false daoists

 

 

 

 in this tradition. In Daoism one is not required 

 

 

Of course one is

 

 

One "method": there is a term, 忍辱, "enduring humiliation," that shows up often in Daoism. 

http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43229-taoist-cultivation-methods-to-transform-karma/?p=735954

 

 

 

Two things that immediately red-flag a fraud and a fake in daoism

 

1. Anger

2. Money

[Walker]

He wishes to play more games with words.

 

But he fails to see the key word:

 

"Display."

 

Read carefully.

[iradie]

Hello,

I visited 桐柏宫 twice. In 2008 and in 2015.

The first time I arrived there, the temple was very small and the few monks and other people living and visiting there, very friendly. Me and a friend were invited warmly and when Zhang Gaocheng came back from travel he spent time to speak twice with us. It was very nice from him as at that time I was not yet as involved in studying daoism as now. Still he was very friendly. He also spoke then about his dreams of developing the place and restoring it.

 

When I came by 2 years ago I was amazed to see the work done and the many changes. Not only had the buildings extended a lot, but the place attracts a lot of people, not only from the region, but also from the cities around which come to study and do retreats, and seek good advice from Zhang Gao Cheng and from the other Daoshi living there.

Zhang GaoCheng has a lot of pupils and when you speak with them you can feel the profound respect and appreciation they have for him. The place is busy with studying and developing initiatives in particular they have projects around Taoist music. It has become a dynamic center for research and study of daoism. Many people of all ages gather there, and also young people and pupils of Zhang Gao Cheng. You can see he takes good care of them. He transmits teachings to people who are truly invested in studying daoism. But of course it is a question of trust, and long time, and being steady during many years.

 

I was thinking visiting this summer maybe. I am trying to start a study about daoist medicine. It would be so nice to meet your Awaken !

 

I have read this thread and I wonder... When I see some of the aggressive reactions and badmouthing about other pai/schools and masters, I think these people have got very bad habits. There are many of these reactions on the net today, and maybe for them it is very usual. I agree so much with Awaken that the first work we have to do if we want to develop ourselves on the way, is to have a clean, clear and humble heart. Or at least try to practice it.

[Arkady Shadursky]

By the way, people, the notion that one could go to live in or visit a Daoist temple in China and never see anger is total fantasy. I've personally witnessed wise, respected, typically soft-spoken, and *famously compassionate* Daoist masters display the full range of rage and wrath. I've seen people who got out of line be excoriated with volume and vigor plenty of times. Supposedly in its heyday Wudang had a prison for wayward monks. White Cloud Monastery monks immolated one who was corrupt and colluded with Japanese occupying forces. There has always been rebuke, including wrathful rebuke, in this tradition. In Daoism one is not required to eat a sandwich full of bullshit and then thank the chef. One can waltz into a message board and get away with being full of it, so long as one dresses one's insults up in pseudo politeness and a facetious passive aggressive veneer. That doesn't work in traditional Daoist circles, which are happy to reject and eject.

 

Agree. The image of "calm Daoist" is mostly a Western legend about Daoists of China. Two examples from our personal experience:

 

The first is from 1990s, when a Russian tourist came with us to a Chinese Daoist temple. Daoists didn't allow to make any photo or video recording there. We warned this tourist to not try to film something. He did not listen us and started to film. Suddenly Daoist angrily came to that tourist, pulled out the camera from his hands and has broken the expensive lens, powerly throwing it on the floor. The tourist was shocked, saying "I thought Daoists should be calm and non-doing so I can do whatever I want..." 

 

The other is from 2016. When Longmenpai Master came to DaoDe Center in Moscow, students asked us to request some additional neidan training on the last day as it was the most interesting topic for everyone and it was planned by the Seminar Program provided by Master (while Master said he plans to give a historical lecture instead of it).

 

We asked Master about it privately after the classes. His face has suddenly changed, the voice became very loud and unpleasant. He "angrily" said - when we teach him - we will decide how to teach but now it is not our business. He said he will punish us hitting with bamboo stick we had in our Center. We humbly apologized and said it is what our students asked - and again he "angrily" replied that we should be much more strict with them.

 

There are much more examples of it, especially from in-School education.

 

The reason behind this happening is quite obvious. There is not only Yin in the world. There is also Yang. Sometimes Teachers use the first and sometimes the second, depending on students' deviations.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

[Ormus]

Hi Arkady,

 

why Longmen Pai Master come to teach you Nei Dan when you have Wu Liu Pai - Nei Dan which is as we see advanced?

 

You even have Yu Xian Pai Nei Dan,so I dont know why criticising Longmen or Qianfeng Pai then invite Longment to teach?This is strange to me.

 

Ormus

[Taoist Texts]

 

 We asked Master about it privately after the classes. His face has suddenly changed, the voice became very loud and unpleasant. He "angrily" said - when we teach him - we will decide how to teach but now it is not our business. He said he will punish us hitting with bamboo stick we had in our Center. We humbly apologized  

 

Hmm, the guru gets payed, gets angry, threatens to beat students with sticks, the students beg for forgiveness.

 

 

Nope, does not sound like a cult at all.

[Mudfoot]

Sounds like a sex game...

[Taoist Texts]

Sounds like a sex game...

 LOL, or like a joke. I am telling you you can't make this stuff up.

[Arkady Shadursky]

Hi Arkady,

 

why Longmen Pai Master come to teach you Nei Dan when you have Wu Liu Pai - Nei Dan which is as we see advanced?

 

You even have Yu Xian Pai Nei Dan,so I dont know why criticising Longmen or Qianfeng Pai then invite Longment to teach?This is strange to me.

 

Ormus

 

Because we have contacts with different Schools in China and we are open for different approaches. That visit was planned many years ago and it should have happened. Later we are going to organize seminars of Zhengyidao and Yuxianpai Masters, probably even more in future.

 

We are not criticizing Longmen, what about Zhao Bichen's school - modern WuLiupai representatives doesn't recognize it as a successor of WuLiupai, nothing more.

 

Sounds like a sex game...

 

You better talk about sex games on specialized forums.

 

It is Chinese reality, no matter if you like it or dislike it - it will remain the same. Here is one more story:

 

In early 2000s we were traveling in Chinese mountains and stayed for several days in a Daoist monastery there. One of beginners from our group asked if it is possible to study from Daoists of this monastery. We asked - and got special allowance for that (now such lessons are common in many places, but in 90s-00s it was much harder for foreigner to study in a Daoist temple or monastery)...

 

So the lesson started the next day. Daoist said student to take some posture, made some corrections and went to a nearby building.

 

The posture was uncomfortable and when Daoist has gone, student has changed the posture to much simplier one. When Daoist returned - student took the original posture, when he left - student again changed the posture to have a rest.

 

Very soon Daoist has noticed this and asked us in Chinese: "- Can I hit him?" We replied "- No, please, he is a foreigner and may not be ready for it."

"- In this case I see no way to teach him." - said Daoist and stopped the lesson.

---

Regards,

Arkady

Edited February 22, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Ormus]

Good that you are open for Masters and schools from which can be learned something new.I asked this because I got impression that maybe your school change to course after passing of Patriarch of WLP Single Yang.

 

I understand why WLP dont recognise Qianfeng Pai as their descendant because Qianfeng originated in the same time as WLP so it is sort of competiotion.

 

Interesting that you are to include Zheng Yi as they dont teach Nei Dan,bur are religious ritual and masters of magic.Still Shang Qing Pai have good proto-Nei Dan practices.

 

Ormus

Edited February 22, 2017 by Ormus

[Mudfoot]

Beating the student and forcing him to like it, that is more about hierarchy than teaching. It used to be a "teaching" method for Western teachers as well.

 

A story: What I do also contains difficult postures. One of my fellow students had problems with one of them. Our teacher told him that until he could stand in it for the prescribed time, he would not progress in the system.

He saw the apple trees on his yard blossom twice before he was allowed to progress. And he came to every one of our classes during that time.

 

So forgive me if I ridicule beating as a teaching method. As a pedagogic instrument, it lacks efficacy.

 

Unless you are doing Chan. (And yes, that is sort of a joke, with a lot of historical truth in it. Should I Insert an emoticon here so my intention cometh forth?)