The real reason for renunciation and asceticism is to escape samsara at death..

[tulku]

I have been reading up on the tibetan book of life and death.

 

The author states that upon death, a human being will encounter stages of bardo.

 

If your karma is good enough or if you have been doing enough spiritual work, your soul or consciousness would be attracted to the higher realms and even the buddhic or angelic realms if you have been doing enough spiritual work.

 

If your karma is bad or if you are too drawn to desires or hatred, then you will be drawn towards the lower realms where you will be reborn again.

 

The author states that if one does not wish to be reborn again in the lower realms including the human realms, then one should avoid any thoughts or feelings of desires and hatred/aversions after death and one should will his consciousness towards the extremely bright realms of angels and buddhas.

 

This is the main reason for renunciation and asceticism. To avoid being drawn again towards the lower realms after death.

 

How many of you wish to be reborn again in samsara? Again and again?

Edited April 12, 2012 by tulku

[Sonhoffman]

Oh, you've been reading again.

 

Oops, I almost said "good for you".

 

 

But seriously, your book could be right. And you might be interpreting it right.

[thelerner]

Maybe. Its undoubtedly good to die in a peaceful state of mind.

 

Still what happens after death is unknown.

 

Feed the brain one chemical and you're happy, another and you're sad. Cut off it's oxygen and you're dead. No afterlife; the brain really was you, and you're dead as any other animal. No mythology for comfort or control. There's no one directing your afterlife, no one putting you on a merry go round. You were a living organism that could think and feel, now being dead, there is a lifeless rotting corpse and the only you is what you've left behind in memories.

 

Its a bit dark, but it should also point out that this life, this day is precious.

[baiqi]

This is a tibetan buddhist point of view. Not mine.

 

I do not feel this to be the right path, honestly. There is a reason to be on this Earth which is not "let's get the hell out of here".

 

I feel closer to daoists and zen buddhists:

 

" Nirvana is inside Samsara"

" Man is between heaven and earth"

[C T]

This is a tibetan buddhist point of view. Not mine.

 

Could it be you are referring to the opening post? If you are, then you may benefit to know that Tibetan Buddhism, as far as i know, does not share a similar view to the OP, at least not in the way it's been presented here.

 

Personally, i believe that one's views and practices ought not to alarm others and cause them to become anxious. If this happens once, thats okay, twice... doubts follow, and when its done repeatedly, it then becomes apparent that what is being put forth should simply be disregarded.

 

So its my hope that you will rethink your observation and perhaps take the time to seek counsel from reliable sources (i would recommend the Berzin Archives for very accurate references) before attempting to present a view which could catch some new visitors off-guard.

 

Thank you.

[Gerard]

How many of you wish to be reborn again in samsara? Again and again?

 

I don't think this is a cultivator's wish, but sometimes past karma manifests in the next lifetime (or an accidental or unfortunate death) thinking in this one that things will be all over for you. Non-linear karma, a tough one.

 

It's better focusing on the "here and now" (mindfulness) that getting carried away with this too much.

[idiot_stimpy]

Oh, you've been reading again.

 

Oops, I almost said "good for you".

 

 

But seriously, your book could be right. And you might be interpreting it right.

 

 

We could be in the Bardo right now and not know it.

[konchog uma]

We could be in the Bardo right now and not know it.

 

bardo is tibetan for "transitional state"

 

everywhere you go is a bardo. realms and worlds are bardos. Every time you incarnate its the afterlife, and the before-life, and the life-life of right now, which is the deeper meaning of bardo (as explained by my rinpoche).

 

so you are definitely in the bardo right now and didn't realize it

 

"regard all dharmas as dreams"

[64changes]

Do mean, that right now, I could be in a Bardo called Bridgett?

 

 

Sorry, I was legally obliged to do that joke

[C T]

Do mean, that right now, I could be in a Bardo called Bridgett?

 

 

Sorry, I was legally obliged to do that joke

[tulku]

Maybe. Its undoubtedly good to die in a peaceful state of mind.

 

Still what happens after death is unknown.

 

Feed the brain one chemical and you're happy, another and you're sad. Cut off it's oxygen and you're dead. No afterlife; the brain really was you, and you're dead as any other animal. No mythology for comfort or control. There's no one directing your afterlife, no one putting you on a merry go round. You were a living organism that could think and feel, now being dead, there is a lifeless rotting corpse and the only you is what you've left behind in memories.

 

Its a bit dark, but it should also point out that this life, this day is precious.

 

if your consciousness has already left your body, do you think you would care what happened to your body?

 

i have always said you are too attached..

[tulku]

This is a tibetan buddhist point of view. Not mine.

 

I do not feel this to be the right path, honestly. There is a reason to be on this Earth which is not "let's get the hell out of here".

 

I feel closer to daoists and zen buddhists:

 

" Nirvana is inside Samsara"

" Man is between heaven and earth"

 

tis false viewpoint is why u will get reborn again and again

[tulku]

I don't think this is a cultivator's wish, but sometimes past karma manifests in the next lifetime (or an accidental or unfortunate death) thinking in this one that things will be all over for you. Non-linear karma, a tough one.

 

It's better focusing on the "here and now" (mindfulness) that getting carried away with this too much.

 

if one knows how to remove karma by causing the death of karma, one needs not worry about non-linear karma

[Aaron]

I have been reading up on the tibetan book of life and death.

 

The author states that upon death, a human being will encounter stages of bardo.

 

If your karma is good enough or if you have been doing enough spiritual work, your soul or consciousness would be attracted to the higher realms and even the buddhic or angelic realms if you have been doing enough spiritual work.

 

If your karma is bad or if you are too drawn to desires or hatred, then you will be drawn towards the lower realms where you will be reborn again.

 

The author states that if one does not wish to be reborn again in the lower realms including the human realms, then one should avoid any thoughts or feelings of desires and hatred/aversions after death and one should will his consciousness towards the extremely bright realms of angels and buddhas.

 

This is the main reason for renunciation and asceticism. To avoid being drawn again towards the lower realms after death.

 

How many of you wish to be reborn again in samsara? Again and again?

 

You read too much. Spend less time reading and more time practicing and you'll get better results. I would recommend keeping in mind the concepts of compassion, frugality, and never striving to be first in the world. If you can stop competing with others and just let yourself experience what there is to experience (through meditation and practice if you want) then you will eventually find an answer to your questions, even if it's not the one you might've wanted.

 

Aaron

Edited April 14, 2012 by Twinner

[tulku]

You read too much. Spend less time reading and more time practicing and you'll get better results. I would recommend keeping in mind the concepts of compassion, frugality, and never striving to be first in the world. If you can stop competing with others and just let yourself experience what there is to experience (through meditation and practice if you want) then you will eventually find an answer to your questions, even if it's not the one you might've wanted.

 

Aaron

 

without reading up on theories, how do you practice?

 

whoever said I want to be first in the world?

 

the only answers I want are the buddha's answers.. all other answers are superfluous..

[xabir2005]

 

This is the main reason for renunciation and asceticism. To avoid being drawn again towards the lower realms after death.

Absolutely. But not only avoiding 'lower realms' - the 3 realms of hell, animal and ghost... but also avoiding getting trapped in the 3 higher realms: human, asura, deva (heaven).

 

Why? Even though heaven is relatively pleasurable, nonetheless they are impermanent and not free from death and suffering (especially towards the end of their life). In the end, they are still not outside the cycle of samsara.

 

We strive to attain awakening, nirvana, liberation.

 

No matter how wholesome your karma is, unless you attain awakening and liberation, you will end up getting stuck in the higher realms which are insecure - still binded by birth and death, still having the potential and tendency to one day fall back into the lower realms. Nothing in samsara is secure. Therefore we must not just strive for a higher realm, but to end the cycle of being reborn via ignorance.

 

Here's a sutta for sharing:

 

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.013.than.html

 

SN 15.13

PTS: S ii 187

CDB i 658

Timsa Sutta: Thirty

translated from the Pali by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

© 2009–2012

 

Now on that occasion the Blessed One was dwelling in Rajagaha, in the Bamboo Grove. Then thirty monks from Pava — all wilderness dwellers, all alms-goers, all triple-robe wearers, all still with fetters — went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side.

 

Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, "These thirty monks from Pava... are all still with fetters. What if I were to teach them the Dhamma in such a way that in this very sitting their minds, through lack of clinging, would be released from fermentations?"

 

So he addressed the monks: "Monks."

 

"Yes, lord," the monks responded.

 

The Blessed One said, "From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?"

 

"As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the blood we have shed from having our heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans."

 

"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.

 

"This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans.

 

"The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

 

"The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off... when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off... when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off... when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off... when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off... when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

 

"The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.

 

"Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

 

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of the thirty monks from Pava — through lack of clinging — were released from fermentations.

See also: SN 15.3.

Edited April 14, 2012 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

"let's get the hell out of here".

The point is not to get out of here, but to avoid returning again and again endlessly. If you are liberated, you are free here and now, and also free from coming back again and again.

 

 

AN 10.65 PTS: A v 120

Pathama Sukha Sutta: First Discourse on the Pleasant

translated from the Pali by K. Nizamis

 

At one time, the Venerable Sāriputta was dwelling near the small village of Nālaka in Magadha. And then, there where Venerable Sāriputta was, there Sāmaṇḍakāni, the wanderer, approached. Having approached, he exchanged greetings with the Venerable Sāriputta. Having exchanged greetings, and courteous talk having passed between them, he sat to one side. Having sat to one side, Sāmaṇḍakāni, the wanderer, said this to Venerable Sāriputta:

 

"Now, what, friend Sāriputta, is the pleasant, and what is the painful?"

 

"Rebirth, friend, is painful; non-rebirth is pleasant. When, friend, there is rebirth, this pain is to be expected: cold and heat, hunger and thirst, excrement and urine, contact with fire, contact with punishment, contact with weapons, and anger caused by meeting and associating with relatives and friends. When, friend, there is rebirth, this pain is to be expected.

 

"When, friend, there is no rebirth, this pleasantness is to be expected: neither cold nor heat, neither hunger nor thirst, neither excrement nor urine, neither contact with fire, nor contact with punishment, nor contact with weapons, and no anger caused by meeting and associating with relatives and friends. When, friend, there is no rebirth, this pleasantness is to be expected."

[xabir2005]

[xabir2005]

the only answers I want are the buddha's answers.. all other answers are superfluous..

I like your faith in Buddha. Indeed, the Buddha is the foremost teacher or devas and men, the omniscient one, worthy of homage... someone whose words I'd trust.

 

I highly recommend reading the Buddha's original words, one can start with this: In the Buddha's Words: An Anthology of Discourses from the Pali Canon (Teachings of the Buddha

 

Truly great selection of Buddha's teachings.

Edited April 14, 2012 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

[Owledge]

Absolutely. But not only avoiding 'lower realms' - the 3 realms of hell, animal and ghost... but also avoiding getting trapped in the 3 higher realms: human, asura, deva (heaven).

Wow, so animals are regarded as lower than ghosts. Does that mean that animals are not spiritual beings? Sounds to me like a belief system based on outdated prejudice.

Also no surprise that humans are regarded as one of the higher realms - above average.

 

On the whole reincarnation thing: Why would one want to actively strive for nirvana? OK, it's an interesting occupation for spending your lifetime, but if you strive for it because you don't want to reincarnate infinitely, then what's so desirable about being nothing but pleasant awareness (if that remains that is)? Ever wondered why our lives exist in the first place? Maybe because eternal serenity is as unsustainable as is eternal suffering. Maybe once you reached that desired state of freedom from suffering, you will suddenly find yourself in the very pleasantness you expected, but not because nothing is happening, but because you are enjoying the creation of the very reality you just managed to escaped from.

I want to see your face then.

 

Maybe those stories about people reaching enlightenment through totally affirming life are meant to tell us that life is enlightenment, and why there's also that saying that we already are enlightened, but don't know it. Not saying that once we come to a realization, once we 'remember', we will jump into a state of nonexistance or whatever, but saying that eventually you come to a realization that life is for living. And this including that everything that happens happens for a reason, so your striving for escaping the cycle of rebirth and suffering was part of that theater play, but an illusory aim, because achieving the aim will only make you end up in life again. And how would you know it's not like that if you just abandoned your mind, your personality, your everything?

If it weren't like this, then what happens if more and more souls reach nirvana? Aren't there more and more people in this world? Where are they all coming from?

Maybe they are you.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Owledge

[tulku]

Wow, so animals are regarded as lower than ghosts. Does that mean that animals are not spiritual beings? Sounds to me like a belief system based on outdated prejudice.

Also no surprise that humans are regarded as one of the higher realms - above average.

 

On the whole reincarnation thing: Why would one want to actively strive for nirvana? OK, it's an interesting occupation for spending your lifetime, but if you strive for it because you don't want to reincarnate infinitely, then what's so desirable about being nothing but pleasant awareness (if that remains that is)? Ever wondered why our lives exist in the first place? Maybe because eternal serenity is as unsustainable as is eternal suffering. Maybe once you reached that desired state of freedom from suffering, you will suddenly find yourself in the very pleasantness you expected, but not because nothing is happening, but because you are enjoying the creation of the very reality you just managed to escaped from.

I want to see your face then.

 

Maybe those stories about people reaching enlightenment through totally affirming life are meant to tell us that life is enlightenment, and why there's also that saying that we already are enlightened, but don't know it. Not saying that once we come to a realization, once we 'remember', we will jump into a state of nonexistance or whatever, but saying that eventually you come to a realization that life is for living. And this including that everything that happens happens for a reason, so your striving for escaping the cycle of rebirth and suffering was part of that theater play, but an illusory aim, because achieving the aim will only make you end up in life again. And how would you know it's not like that if you just abandoned your mind, your personality, your everything?

If it weren't like this, then what happens if more and more souls reach nirvana? Aren't there more and more people in this world? Where are they all coming from?

Maybe they are you.

 

Nirvana is infinitely more powerful and blissful than just "pleasant awareness"..

 

take the high which you experience during sexual orgasm and multiply that high by a godzillion fold and you will still not experience even one percent of the powerful bliss of nirvana..

 

this is why i say most humans are fools... they think they know everything about the cosmos but in reality most humans are like ants compared to the multi-dimensional beings out there..

[Fū Yue]

You, the buddha, having grasped the one, seeing the universe as the dream of an ocean, as the light of your own mind reveals infinite shimmering mandala worlds, your body of bodies forever shattering into billions of buddhas each bearing their own fruits of enlightenment for endless sentient beings, do nothing.

 

Because it's already done, in just this one moment... perhaps. Perhaps the significance of our actions right now are so vast, profound and far-reaching that the story of our own lives are reflected in the crucible of any and every possible life ever told, reaching it's fermentation in our being just so.

 

It's interesting to think about!

[idiot_stimpy]

bardo is tibetan for "transitional state"

 

everywhere you go is a bardo. realms and worlds are bardos. Every time you incarnate its the afterlife, and the before-life, and the life-life of right now, which is the deeper meaning of bardo (as explained by my rinpoche).

 

so you are definitely in the bardo right now and didn't realize it

 

"regard all dharmas as dreams"

 

Do many people who read about the Bardo know they're in the Bardo right now?

 

Or is this only told when the students mind is ripe?

[xabir2005]

Wow, so animals are regarded as lower than ghosts. Does that mean that animals are not spiritual beings? Sounds to me like a belief system based on outdated prejudice.

Also no surprise that humans are regarded as one of the higher realms - above average.

The order is not so important. However, the suttas have explained the order in terms of how much pleasure/displeasure they feel in their lives.

 

Animals often (of course there are pets, etc, that do not) need to experience hunger while searching for food, for example, they also often get hunted by predators.

On the whole reincarnation thing: Why would one want to actively strive for nirvana?

Because Nirvana is the end of the three poisons of craving, aversion and ignorance. It means the end of suffering, since suffering arises from craving.

OK, it's an interesting occupation for spending your lifetime, but if you strive for it because you don't want to reincarnate infinitely, then what's so desirable about being nothing but pleasant awareness (if that remains that is)?

The end of suffering is the highest bliss.

Ever wondered why our lives exist in the first place? Maybe because eternal serenity is as unsustainable as is eternal suffering.

There is a reason for suffering. Suffering arises due to craving. Craving arises due to things like ignorance. If ignorance is ended by wisdom, then suffering will never arise again. Liberation is permanent.

Maybe once you reached that desired state of freedom from suffering, you will suddenly find yourself in the very pleasantness you expected, but not because nothing is happening, but because you are enjoying the creation of the very reality you just managed to escaped from.

I want to see your face then.

When you awaken, there is tremendous bliss even while you are alive. However, it does not mean you can avoid unpleasant feelings. If you get injured, or get cancer, you still have a lot of unpleasant feelings.

Maybe those stories about people reaching enlightenment through totally affirming life are meant to tell us that life is enlightenment,

No, it is realizing that there is no substantial self, a liver of life, an agent (self, perceiver, controller) behind life, that is awakening/enlightenment.

and why there's also that saying that we already are enlightened, but don't know it.

I am not fond of such sayings. Check this article out: http://www.interactivebuddha.com/bullshit.shtml

Not saying that once we come to a realization, once we 'remember', we will jump into a state of nonexistance or whatever, but saying that eventually you come to a realization that life is for living. And this including that everything that happens happens for a reason,

Everything happens due to a cause, but everything having some divine 'reason' is merely a (false) interpretation. There is no divine reason or whatever. There is causes and conditions. It is just like a doctor treating a patient, he doesn't tell his patient "you're meant to be sick", "your illness is a divine plan" or whatever bullshit. He simply diagnoses - this is your illness, this is the cause of your illness, there is an end to this illness, this is my prescription for treating this illness.

 

Buddha's approach is similar: there is suffering, there is the cause of suffering, there is an end to suffering, there is a noble path which ends suffering. (the 4 noble truths)

so your striving for escaping the cycle of rebirth and suffering was part of that theater play, but an illusory aim, because achieving the aim will only make you end up in life again.

No, liberation means no more getting caught in endless future births.

 

Obviously, an awakened person is still living. As I said - an awakened person is free here and now in this life, but also free from needing to come back endlessly.

And how would you know it's not like that if you just abandoned your mind, your personality, your everything?

If it weren't like this, then what happens if more and more souls reach nirvana? Aren't there more and more people in this world? Where are they all coming from?

Maybe they are you.

Actually, very very few people reach nirvana nowadays. I think from Buddha's dispensation to now, only tens of thousands of people attain nirvana. But the number of sentient beings in this universe and beyond are infinite/numberless, like the number of sands in the beach.

 

Also Buddhism don't call them 'souls' but 'individual mindstream', but that is another matter.

Edited April 15, 2012 by xabir2005