Wells Posted April 13, 2012 Taoist Alchemy & Immortality - Absorption of energy from the Tao required or not? A big question - at least for me! I don't want to force a tough line of argument here or arguing someone down, I'm interested in your opinions so I can take them into consideration for my mindset. Reasoning, argumentation and quotation would be appreciated nevertheless. In Gary Clyman's Temple Style Nei Kung which I train you have exercises where you suck energy in from all directions or from heaven and from earth. In Wang Liping's system you suck energy fom your surroundings or from the cosmos in through your pores. On the other hand I read several old taoist texts where you simply refine energies that you already have inside your body or your system and then nourish the original energy in your dantian with it to reach your alchemic goals like immortality. Does that work or are these texts just incomplete or "outdoor student" teachings? Also, Yang Jwing-Ming claims in his books that it is possible to transform matter of your body (stored belly fat!) into chi through reverse breathing and nourish your original energy in your dantian with it! What are your opinions and what have you learned from your teachers concerning that point of the theory behind Taoist Alchemy? Every input would be very appreciated, thank you! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted April 13, 2012 Energy works on a spectrum of "vibrational frequencies". We all have various layers of issues/energy obstructions which create the sense of separation of oneness. Different frequencies work with different types of issues. The body can refine and produce all necessary frequencies. But, it is also possible to "draw" in energies. As one progress... there is really no difference between drawing in and refining. All is Tao. Tao is all. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ish Posted April 13, 2012 From the longmen pai book- both the inner essences and external qi drawn in through breath and pores are used to create and refine the dan. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) - Edited March 23, 2015 by 三江源 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted April 13, 2012 I think technically in neigong you don't absorb qi from the outside...doing so is a qigong method, and it is what could be considered 'outdoor student teachings'. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) As above, so below. What a short perfect answer. also its the weekend and I'm not driving, I'll take a drink every time Dorian says the word 'Clyman' Edited April 13, 2012 by thelerner 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 13, 2012 Hey, great replies so far!!! Energy works on a spectrum of "vibrational frequencies". We all have various layers of issues/energy obstructions which create the sense of separation of oneness. Different frequencies work with different types of issues. The body can refine and produce all necessary frequencies. But, it is also possible to "draw" in energies. As one progress... there is really no difference between drawing in and refining. All is Tao. Tao is all. Interesting! So you think both is possible and in the end there is no difference because you see chi as simply "energy"! I like your idea that the body can actually PRODUCE the necessary frequenzies or vibrations that are needed! From the longmen pai book- both the inner essences and external qi drawn in through breath and pores are used to create and refine the dan. Thanks for the quotation! I only knew the part with the external chi, not that you draw your "inner essences" into dantian at the same time in Longmenpai training! As above, so below. Yea, from a hermetic POV, why should be a difference if you use the energies from your own microcosmos or the energies from the macrocosmos! Interesting view. Only the amount of energy available could make a difference though... I think technically in neigong you don't absorb qi from the outside...doing so is a qigong method, and it is what could be considered 'outdoor student teachings'. So in your opinion refining your own energies and returning them to dantian to nourish it is on a higher level than using outside energies or of more worth? What a short perfect answer. also its the weekend and I'm not driving, I'll take a drink every time Dorian says the word 'Clyman' Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Cheers! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted April 13, 2012 I feel like if you meditate well at the right times of day, then a lot the stuff just happens on it's own. I was reading "Tao of Health Longevity and Immortality, teachings of Chung and Lu, trans: Eva Wong" again recently and it seems more that what Chung explains is not what to do, but what happens inside when you meditate at the right times of day and night. Nonetheless, I've been thinking about the relationships between upper, middle, and lower dantiens, and Heaven, Earth, and Humanity. I think absorbing qi can help to integrate these functions so that they are all tied in together. Focusing on building the dantien doesn't get one so far if they don't cultivate their humanity aspect, which can be a qi gong in itself to develop traits like lovingkindness and compassion in cultivating the Humanity aspect. I can imagine how this can be increased by absorbing energy from nature, and I can imagine how absorbing energy from nature might be accomplished in many many ways, subtle and overt. A last thought, is that we naturally absorb blessings of the Tao when we enter wu wei and work in harmony the Tao. Seems to me that not all schools of Immortality focus so much on the lower dan tien. Seems like that is more of a martial and healing requirement, but most of the work goes on in the upper dantien with cultivation of "Openness." 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted April 13, 2012 Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Clyman Cheers! Cheers and have a good weekend. Opens bottle 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted April 13, 2012 Taoist Alchemy & Immortality - Absorption of energy from the Tao required or not? In your thinking, is Tao a being or a figure that emits energy for you to absorb...??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 13, 2012 In your thinking, is Tao a being or a figure that emits energy for you to absorb...??? I meant heaven chi and earth chi. "Tao Gong" in some taoist lineages means the working with these energies and they are seen as the Father/Yang- and the Mother/Yin-aspect of Tao. The human existence and chi therefore exists between and of cause of these two aspects. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 13, 2012 In your thinking, is Tao a being or a figure that emits energy for you to absorb...??? Yay! And it looks exactly like GARY CLYMAN!!! (...another shot for thelerner ) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted April 13, 2012 Don't you just love it when people get obsessed by a new master and talk about him all day Speaking of full lotus 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 13, 2012 Don't you just love it when people get obsessed by a new master and talk about him all day Speaking of full lotus ...do you like my new avatar & photo...? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted April 13, 2012 So in your opinion refining your own energies and returning them to dantian to nourish it is on a higher level than using outside energies or of more worth? Yes. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted April 13, 2012 ...do you like my new avatar & photo...? It would more appropriate to Change "Jing(精)" to "Jin(勁)". "Jin(勁)" is what you are building up from Nei Kung. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 13, 2012 Yes, your new avatar is very cool. It illustrates your personality and cultivation goals very effectively. Thank you very much! ...although I guess you meant it sarcastically! Yes. Interesting! May I ask why that's your opinion? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) It would more appropriate to Change "Jing(精)" to "Jin(勁)". "Jin(勁)" is what you are building up from Nei Kung. True! I don't know why Waysun Liao (and accordingly his students) use the english spelling "jing" for "internal power". In his book "Nine Nights with the Taoist Master" Liao uses the term "One Chi" instead of "Yuan Chi"! But maybe Jin = Jing...or better: Jin restores Jing. Jin that is produced through Taichi or Nei Kung practice is then stored in and comes (when used later) from your tan tien. What is stored in tan tien naturally? Your Yuan Chi = Jing. Edited April 13, 2012 by Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted April 13, 2012 OK you convinced me, I'm looking up only Korean terms from now on Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted April 13, 2012 Yes, "One Chi" maybe considered as "Yuan Chi"; but Jin is the body strength and Jing is the primal essence which makes up the body. Jing can be considered as your body cells, blood, body fluids and other essential substances which are to be sustained for the vitality of the human body. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 13, 2012 Yes, "One Chi" maybe considered as "Yuan Chi"; but Jin is the body strength and Jing is the primal essence which makes up the body. Jing can be considered as your body cells, blood, body fluids and other essential substances which are to be sustained for the vitality of the human body. OK you convinced me, I'm looking up only Korean terms from now on Well, according what I have read there ara many possible meanings and translations for "jing". Sperm, essence, vitality, even DNA. As far as I know in TCM jing is associated with your primordial chi that you acquired from your parents and that is stored "between the kidneys and between the navel and ming meng". As far as I know in TCM there is no tan tien...but that location mirrors pretty much the tan tien from taoist alchemic systems and the description of TCM's jing pretty much mirrors the description of yuan chi! Other sources say that "yuan chi is jing in motion" and yuan chi flows at least in the "8 extraordinary vessels". One of them Chong Mai comes from tan tien and goes from there through the spine. Also, we know the association from Jing with marrow including bone marrow. "Jin" is created (amongst others) by condensing chi into the bone marrow. Now, lets consider my experience I posted in the Emo-Lipo thread: I can only talk from my personal POW. When I trained with Gary's Nei Kung only for a short time, I woke up at night and felt one vibration jump between the bones of my left and of my right leg jumping back and forth and felt the microcosmic orbit or a vibration in my backbone jump up and down and actually felt it bumping against the crown point of my head. The vibration was quite hard, sharp and quick. I stood up and it all was still there. I heard a loud hum in my head also. It was around 2 at night, I stood up and emailed Gary because I was a little concerned. Gary wrote back IN 30 SECONDS (!!!) and told me that that's all normal, he had that too and I shouldn't be concerned and simply go on training! I trained 5,5 hours with Gary's Nei Kung and then straight went to bed before that experience. I sucked all the vibration I created into tan tien, there was no vibration left in my body. The vibration I created was NOWHERE as strong or fast as the vibration that suddenly flew around in my body that night. My opinion is that it was actually my Yuan Chi that came out on it's own and doing something in my system, maybe clearing my channels or god knows what. It had to be a conscious energy because it did it on it's own! It mirrored the vibration I created but was 100 times stronger! Also the routes it flowed mirrored the routes I used in training. I guess I stimulated my Yuan Chi by feeding it with the vibration I created. The experience didn't repeat itself until now but I hope it will happen again soon. What are your opinions? 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 13, 2012 Nope. No sarcasm at all. I don't subscribe to your system nor resonate with your vibration, however I can't help but respect your dedication. (and creative avatar!) Best to you -- OK, thank you! Best to you too! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted April 13, 2012 Well, according what I have read there ara many possible meanings and translations for "jing". Sperm, essence, vitality, even DNA. As far as I know in TCM jing is associated with your primordial chi that you acquired from your parents and that is stored "between the kidneys and between the navel and ming meng". As far as I know in TCM there is no tan tien...but that location mirrors pretty much the tan tien from taoist alchemic systems and the description of TCM's jing pretty much mirrors the description of yuan chi! Other sources say that "yuan chi is jing in motion" and yuan chi flows at least in the "8 extraordinary vessels". One of them Chong Mai comes from tan tien and goes from there through the spine. Also, we know the association from Jing with marrow including bone marrow. "Jin" is created (amongst others) by condensing chi into the bone marrow. What are your opinions? If you believe all what you had read and cannot filter out the unwanted fallacies, then you will be confused as hell. It had to be one way or the other but not all. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) If you believe all what you had read and cannot filter out the unwanted fallacies, then you will be confused as hell. It had to be one way or the other but not all. Sure, I just wanted to point out connections between the possible meanings! IMO and because of my experience I guess: "Yuan Chi" = "Jing" and the "Jin" a Taichi or Nei Kung Master uses in combat, healing, spiritual or alchemic application is in fact his "Jing"/"Yuan Chi" ...and a wave or vibration or frequenzy in scientific terms. And you can restore and stimulate it! EDIT: Or the "Jin" is at least produced by and originates from your "Jing"/"Yuan Chi" in your Tan Tien. As every or almost every chi in your body discharges from it. In TCM, the Jing between the kidneys feeds the Yuan Chi in the vessels which feeds the Yin and Yang Chi in the Yin and Yang channels. Edited April 13, 2012 by Dorian Black 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
