Taoist Alchemy & Immortality - Absorption of energy from the Tao required or not?

[Creation]

Dorian,

 

In Clyman's system you suck energy in. You don't suck in from the Tao or anything like that, you just suck it in from your surroundings. No consideration is given to the quality or purity of this energy. That is the huge difference that I can see between Clyman and Liao's system. Liao's stuff about purifying your energy and connecting to the "One Chi" of the Tao are simply not in Clyman's system.

 

And with condensing, in Clyman's system you just suck whatever in and condenses it all in movement of intention, whereas in Liao's system you first work to connect to a more pure form of energy and bring it into your body, and then condense that. Needless to say, I find your claim that Clyman's form of condensing breathing is the "indoor" method in the Temple Style to be groundless. It seems much more likely to me that it was his own modification of Liao's system, based on his idea of how neigong should be practiced. If you want to practice his version, I wish you well in your endeavor, but I think it would be totally wrong to equate his stuff with Liao's methods, or think that Clyman's stuff has anything to do with the "One Chi" that Liao refers to.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Creation

[Wells]

Dorian,

 

In Clyman's system you suck energy in. You don't suck in from the Tao or anything like that, you just suck it in from your surroundings. No consideration is given to the quality or purity of this energy. That is the huge difference that I can see between Clyman and Liao's system. Liao's stuff about purifying your energy and connecting to the "One Chi" of the Tao are simply not in Clyman's system.

 

And with condensing, in Clyman's system you just suck whatever in and condenses it all in movement of intention, whereas in Liao's system you first work to connect to a more pure form of energy and bring it into your body, and then condense that. Needless to say, I find your claim that Clyman's form of condensing breathing is the "indoor" method in the Temple Style to be groundless. It seems much more likely to me that it was his own modification of Liao's system, based on his idea of how neigong should be practiced. If you want to practice his version, I wish you well in your endeavor, but I think it would be totally wrong to equate his stuff with Liao's methods, or think that Clyman's stuff has anything to do with the "One Chi" that Liao refers to.

Ok, that's your opinion and I see your points. On the other hand Gary's stuff seems to work nevertheless! I would be very interested in your "indoor-student" explanation about my experience I talked about in post #24 in this thread then!

IMO you restore your yuan chi with Gary's Nei Kung in a very direct way. You suck energy in, refine it, condense it, increase it's vibration and frequenzy and then transport it into tantien to nourish your Yuan Chi. That seems to work!

I guess you don't think that it was Yuan Chi that flow around in me at night...?

Or, if your Tao Gong exercises are so much more efficient, your Yuan Chi flows through your body ALL THE TIME like crazy...?

Edited April 14, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Birch]

It's an interesting distinction tho' - if you suck in just whatever's there then what exactly are you sucking in? If you turn your attention to further out dimensions and specific 'things' in your environment, then what are you sucking in?

 

Personally (IME) I found the putting of attention onto something different, wider and unknown had a neat effect of getting myself out of my own, well, narrow attention (I'd bet Clyman would say "butthole" because that's the vibe)

[mjjbecker]

Neigong-depending on the school (different schools have their own interpretations)-uses 'Heaven and Earth' qi, 'yang and yin' qi or 'solar and gravitational' qi. Within the Mo Pai neigong, within Hunyuan neigong, Stillness Movement neigong and another school I know of, qi certainly is drawn in from outside of the body. Of course it interacts with qi already within the body.

 

Not knowing how to gather qi would constitute 'low level' practice. Being able to gather in qi from outside the body is absolutely fundamental to high level practice.

 

Qigong is simply the generic term for all related practices. It does not mean higher or lower, inside or outside. I know Bruce Frantzis made the distinction some time back, but the facts regarding the modern use of the term 'qigong' are a matter of historical record, and that the term was adopted as a catch-all term for the various different methods and schools.

[Wells]

@Creation

Also, you should consider that in buddhist/tantric tummo systems, like "the Six Yogas of Naropa", you integrate in fact all your negative energies like hate and use it to nourish your fire in your tantien/kanda. They don't waste it by letting earth suck it out of you!

 

And I heard of many more Tantric practitioners who achieved what Waysun Liao calls "the highest" achievement in his book "Tao-The Way of God" than of Taichi or Tao Gong practitioners. Namely, becoming a saint and raise your energy so high that even your body becomes energy (only hair and nails remain).

 

To stay on topic, tantric tummo practitioners suck in energy from all directions (simple energy from their surroundings) into their tantien/kanda + all their inner energies (including "dirty" energies!)

 

So Yuan Chi seems to grow quite good on "fast food" energy!

Edited April 14, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Wells]

Ok, that's your opinion and I see your points. On the other hand Gary's stuff seems to work nevertheless! I would be very interested in your "indoor-student" explanation about my experience I talked about in post #24 in this thread then!

IMO you restore your yuan chi with Gary's Nei Kung in a very direct way. You suck energy in, refine it, condense it, increase it's vibration and frequenzy and then transport it into tantien to nourish your Yuan Chi. That seems to work!

I guess you don't think that it was Yuan Chi that flow around in me at night...?

Or, if your Tao Gong exercises are so much more efficient, your Yuan Chi flows through your body ALL THE TIME like crazy...?

 

@Creation

............well? I'm really interested in your answer.

[Wells]

It's an interesting distinction tho' - if you suck in just whatever's there then what exactly are you sucking in? If you turn your attention to further out dimensions and specific 'things' in your environment, then what are you sucking in?

 

Personally (IME) I found the putting of attention onto something different, wider and unknown had a neat effect of getting myself out of my own, well, narrow attention (I'd bet Clyman would say "butthole" because that's the vibe)

Thanks for the input about your own experiences!

 

 

Neigong-depending on the school (different schools have their own interpretations)-uses 'Heaven and Earth' qi, 'yang and yin' qi or 'solar and gravitational' qi. Within the Mo Pai neigong, within Hunyuan neigong, Stillness Movement neigong and another school I know of, qi certainly is drawn in from outside of the body. Of course it interacts with qi already within the body.

 

Not knowing how to gather qi would constitute 'low level' practice. Being able to gather in qi from outside the body is absolutely fundamental to high level practice.

 

Qigong is simply the generic term for all related practices. It does not mean higher or lower, inside or outside. I know Bruce Frantzis made the distinction some time back, but the facts regarding the modern use of the term 'qigong' are a matter of historical record, and that the term was adopted as a catch-all term for the various different methods and schools.

 

Thank you for the significant input!

Do you know if these traditions use certain methods to "tune in" to the "right frequenzy" so they don't suck in "dirty energy from the surroundings" but only "clean" heavenly chi, as postulated by temple style tao gong practitioners on in this thread (and others)?

[Creation]

I guess you don't think that it was Yuan Chi that flow around in me at night...?

Right. Clyman doesn't even talk about yuan chi, so when practicing his methods, why even bring in that concept? Because of what you read in Liao's books right? So what does Liao say is the defining characteristic of yuan chi? How do you cultivate it and how do you know if you have experienced it? At any rate, I don't think the defining characteristic of Yuan Chi is that it creates really powerful sensations.

 

Also, you should consider that in buddhist/tantric tummo systems, like "the Six Yogas of Naropa", you integrate in fact all your negative energies like hate and use it to nourish your fire in your tantien/kanda. They don't waste it by letting earth suck it out of you!

 

And I heard of many more Tantric practitioners who achieved what Waysun Liao calls "the highest" achievement in his book "Tao-The Way of God" than of Taichi or Tao Gong practitioners. Namely, becoming a saint and raise your energy so high that even your body becomes energy (only hair and nails remain).

 

To stay on topic, tantric tummo practitioners suck in energy from all directions (simple energy from their surroundings) into their tantien/kanda + all their inner energies (including "dirty" energies!)

I think you are mixing up different systems again. Buddhist tantra has very specific methods to transmute and purify negative energy. They don't create the fire using negative energy, the fire that they create is used to purify the negative energy. This is a valid system, and indeed it is completely different from what Liao does. Clyman's system does not address this in the first place.

 

As for the practices that transmute the body into light, that is WAY beyond pushing and pulling energy around.

 

So Yuan Chi seems to grow quite good on "fast food" energy!

How did you get yuan chi out of Tummo practice? Again, just what do you think this "yuan chi" stuff even is?

[Creation]

Do you know if these traditions use certain methods to "tune in" to the "right frequenzy" so they don't suck in "dirty energy from the surroundings" but only "clean" heavenly chi, as postulated by temple style tao gong practitioners on in this thread (and others)?

Not to speak for mjjbecker, but Stillness Movement does this, and from what I have heard about Mo Pai and Longmen Pai methods, they also do something like this.

 

And for the record, I am not a "Temple style Tao Gong" practitioner. I do practice Stillness Movement though.

[Aetherous]

Interesting! May I ask why that's your opinion?

[Aetherous]

.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Scotty

[Wells]

Right.

Ha! Certainly you aren't able to even consider the possibility that it was Yuan Chi! What was it then IYO? As an "Indoor" student you should know...

 

Clyman doesn't even talk about yuan chi, so when practicing his methods, why even bring in that concept? Because of what you read in Liao's books right?

No, I have several sources about yuan chi. Liao doesn't have the copyright on Yuan Chi, ye know, it's a common chinese term! Btw Liao uses the very strange spelling "One" Chi.

True, Gary doesn't talk about "Yuan Chi". For him it's only his "Wave" or his "Vibration". Why not? Temple Style Nei Kung is about achievement, not concepts!

 

So what does Liao say is the defining characteristic of yuan chi?

How it feels IHO? I have no idea! But Liao says that it's stored in Tantian.

 

 

How do you cultivate it and how do you know if you have experienced it? At any rate, I don't think the defining characteristic of Yuan Chi is that it creates really powerful sensations.

My experience closely mirrors that of the guy in Charles Luk's book "Secrets of Chinese Meditation", but his Yuan Chi had much more power and velocity when it flew out first. That guy restored Yuan Chi by simply concentrating on Tantien and using reverse breathing! It took him decades if I rember right! It flow several times out of his tantien and cured all his illnesses including tuberculosis! His yuan chi was in the end so strong that it threw him around back and forth.

But it came out of Tantien, so it can only have been Yuan Chi!

What else is in Tantien? Nothing else!

 

I don't know where mine vibration came from because it was already at work when I woke up. BUT I finally managed to suck it back into Tantien, where it vanished. So...

 

I think you are mixing up different systems again. Buddhist tantra has very specific methods to transmute and purify negative energy. They don't create the fire using negative energy, the fire that they create is used to purify the negative energy. This is a valid system, and indeed it is completely different from what Liao does. Clyman's system does not address this in the first place.

Again..?

That's only your interpretation. The methods and achievements are quite similar. I can catch that. If you can't... Well.

 

 

As for the practices that transmute the body into light, that is WAY beyond pushing and pulling energy around.

True! You also have to increase the frequenzy and amplitude of your vibration...

 

How did you get yuan chi out of Tummo practice? Again, just what do you think this "yuan chi" stuff even is?

It's your energetic DNA.

[Wells]

Not to speak for mjjbecker, but Stillness Movement does this, and from what I have heard about Mo Pai and Longmen Pai methods, they also do something like this.

 

And for the record, I am not a "Temple style Tao Gong" practitioner. I do practice Stillness Movement though.

Do you have Gary's Nei Kung system or why do you think to be able to rate it in comparison to Liao's stuff? Seems kinda funny to me!

 

On the other hand, I have his Nei Kung and I have great progress so far! Therefore his system is obviously very good!

Edited April 14, 2012 by Dorian Black

[Creation]

Do you have Gary's Nei Kung system or why do you think to be able to rate it in comparison to Liao's stuff? Seems kinda funny to me!

I have read Clyman and Liao's books and seen some of their videos.

 

I practice Clyman's stickman when I want a strong sense of personal space or to get my body's energy flowing (if I feel like I am in a relatively energetically clean environment).

 

One thing I want to emphasize is I am not rating anybody. I am not trying to convince you "Liao's stuff is better than Clyman's, you should stop practicing what you are practicing." I am just saying that Clyman's neigong and Liao's neigong are different, even thought Clyman's is derived from Liao's.

 

But it came out of Tantien, so it can only have been Yuan Chi!

What else is in Tantien? Nothing else!

Well if that's how you are defining yuan chi, your posts make a lot more sense.

 

Again..?

That's only your interpretation. The methods and achievements are quite similar. I can catch that. If you can't... Well.

Alright then, there is no reason for me to continue this discussion.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Creation

[Wells]

I have read Clyman and Liao's books and seen some of their videos.

 

I practice Clyman's stickman when I want a strong sense of personal space or to get my body's energy flowing (if I feel like I am in a relatively energetically clean environment).

 

One thing I want to emphasize is I am not rating anybody. I am not trying to convince you "Liao's stuff is better than Clyman's, you should stop practicing what you are practicing." I am just saying that Clyman's neigong and Liao's neigong are different, even thought Clyman's is derived from Liao's.

 

 

Well if that's how you are defining yuan chi, your posts make a lot more sense.

 

 

Alright then, there is no reason for me to continue this discussion.

I don't know if Gary's Nei Kung is different from how he was taught by Liao and his instructors! Gary claims that he didn't change anything.

Who knows if he dropped however certain details as "tuning in to the frequenzy of Tao so you don't suck in unclean energy from your surroundings" kind of details in his exercises because he thought they are unnecessary? It's true however that these details differ his Nei Kung from Liao's Tao Kung as he teaches it today.

 

The big question is: Does it make a difference? Gary should be ill on his deathbed then according to how much "dark energy" he has absorbed in the last 30 years through his practice and ESPECIALLY through his Emotional Liposuction!!!

But he is well and very happy!

That's enough proof IMO!

[Wells]

Maybe there is no such thing as bad or dirty energy?

Maybe energy is just energy and the only bad thing is a lack of energy or energy flow?

 

In TCM it's all about removing energy blockades that hinder your energy to flow where it's needed and that cause a lack of energy flow in that area!

 

Yin/Yang imbalances? Just a lack of the one of the both energies that is shorter!

[ChiDragon]

Maybe there is no such thing as bad or dirty energy?

Maybe energy is just energy and the only bad thing is a lack of energy or energy flow?

 

In TCM it's all about removing energy blockades that hinder your energy to flow where it's needed and that cause a lack of energy flow in that area!

 

Yin/Yang imbalances? Just a lack of the one of the both energies that is shorter!

 

In TCM, the so-call "energy blockage" is simply means that the functional activity of certain organ was not functioning. The malfunction organ was effecting or stopping other organs from functioning properly. In order to clear the blockage, it was by making the malfunction organ to be functional again. Hence, it was said to be that the blockage has been cleared.

[Wells]

In TCM, the so-call "energy blockage" is simply means that the functional activity of certain organ was not functioning. The malfunction organ was effecting or stopping other organs from functioning properly. In order to clear the blockage, it was by making the malfunction organ to be functional again. Hence, it was said to be that the blockage has been cleared.

You are writing this as if "energy" and "energy blockage" are only metaphors IYO.

[Wells]

To put the provisional result of this thread on record, it seems that many schools emphasize both the absorbing of macrocosmic energy and the refining of the microcosmic one's. The methods for both procedures differ and can be more active (personal effort)or more passive (opening to macrocosmos or master).

Which part of them is a "higher level" depends on the POV.

One position is that the macrocosmic energies are "godly" or "Tao" and therefore it's higher. The other position is more psychological in a Jungian way and one could argue that re-integrating of autonomous energies like self-hate or the so-called "Ego" into the oneness of the self is the higher or even highest level. But like I said it depends on the POV.

(IMO re-integrating energies it at least more powerful than letting earth suck that sick part of yourself out of you but the Tao Gong guys would not entitle me in that point. They prefer the eays way. Flight instead of fight! They don't even think of the possibility of re-integration! Well, to hard work to look into your true mirror image!)

 

[ChiDragon]

You are writing this as if "energy" and "energy blockage" are only metaphors IYO.

 

FYI...

1. 氣(Chi) in TCM means functional activity of the organs.

 

2. 氣(Chi) in Chi Kung means breathing the air(the Chi of nature).

 

People have never understand the distinction between the two and they never will.

[Wells]

FYI...

1. 氣(Chi) in TCM means functional activity of the organs.

 

2. 氣(Chi) in Chi Kung means breathing the air(the Chi of nature).

 

People have never understand the distinction between the two and they never will.

Interesting! Yang Jwing-Ming writes that in chinese medicine Chi means "no fire" what means "no inflammation".

[ChiDragon]

Interesting! Yang Jwing-Ming writes that in chinese medicine Chi means "no fire" what means "no inflammation".

 

炁(Chi with no fire): the prenatal Chi; primordial essence from the parents before birth.

 

"No fire" which indicates that something has not been touched by fire; and was considered to be the most natural essential substance.

[Wells]

炁(Chi with no fire): the prenatal Chi; primordial essence from the parents before birth.

 

"No fire" which indicates that something has not been touched by fire; and was considered to be the most natural essential substance.

...then he got it wrong despite being chinese??? (because I'm quite sure that I remember right!)

[astralc]

Fascinating conversation, getting back to the original question, which I think went something like "where does chi come from?".

 

I can only pass on what I experience, I have drawn chi from outside, Heaven (top of head) and Earth (soles of feet), but prefer to just boil chi in the dan tien. In nei gung, as someone said earlier, we can use the chi already present, but it also comes in from outside, in thru the dan tien, sucked into the dan tien like a vacuum cleaner drawing the chi in.

 

Sometimes it is like the dan tien is the hub of an old wild west wagon wheel. The hub at the centre is on fire and the outer ring of the wheel is also present in the hub, the centre and the outer become one, its a nice feeling, but I can't hold it for too long, either the sensation goes or I disappear into the void.

 

Is there dirty chi? Don't know, as far as I am aware energy is just energy, chi just chi, its how we use it that is the difference.

 

Anyway, just thought I would add my 2 cents worth FWIW.

 

astralc

[zerostao]

"Absorption of energy from the Tao required or not?"

yep and your gonna have to emit it also. both are easily done anyways,,,,

lower levels are cultivating jing and qi, higher level is always cultivating the spirit.

of course jing and qi and the material foundation. coz, we are spirits living in a material world.

highest level is being one with the tao or attaining the tao.

chapter 33 of the tao te ching effectively tells us how

please read and ponder upon chapter 33

 

what is important is finding the true value of existence